tv At This Hour With Kate Bolduan CNN April 29, 2019 8:00am-9:00am PDT
investigating. however, he did say that the nra needs to get its act together quickly. jim. >> polo, thanks very much. >> thanks for joining me and us today. i'm jim sciutto. "at this hour" with kate bolduan starts right now. hello, everyone. i'm kate bolduan. thank you for joining me today. funeral services are scheduled today for the woman shot and killed this weekend. as she was simply trying to pray. killed inside her synagogue. killed, witnesses say, while trying to shield her rabbi as they both faced down a gunman. lori kaye was 60 years old. she was in poway outside san diego on saturday to mark the end of passover and also to pray for her mother who had passed away in november. lori kaye, that 60-year-old woman, mother, wife, and much more, she's now dead. her rabbi was also shot. two other people including an
8-year-old little girl were also injured. the reason behind this horrifying tragedy, blind hate. >> here is a young man standing with a rifle, pointing right at me. and i look at him. he had sunglasses on. i couldn't see his eyes. i couldn't see his soul. >> we saw the hate. >> i did not know what was going on. >> so the piece of shrapnel went in your leg and came out the other side? >> yeah. >> what were you thinking then? did it hurt? >> in the first place when it was gushing blood, i didn't feel it. then after they wiped it and the blood was off, it felt like i had the giant bruise ever. it was hurting bad. >> cnn's dan simon is in poway,
california, joining me now. what more are you learning about lori kaye, about the other victims in this? >> well, hi, kate. some of the details here are just so disturbing. here you have this 60-year-old woman who actually helped build this synagogue some 30 years ago. she did some of the fund-raising for it. as you said, she was here to mourn the loss of her mother, and according to witnesses, she put herself between the shooter and the rabbi. the rabbi saying he is only alive today because in his words lori took a bullet for him. he said lori took a bullet for the entire congregation. one of the other chilling details here, kate, is her husband happens to be a physician. he was here that morning, he tended to the victims. at first, he didn't even realize he was trying to revive his own wife. and then when he discovered that it was in fact his wife, he fainted and collapsed right next to her.
and terms of some of the other victims, we know about the rabbi losing his right index finger. took some bullets to both of his hands, and lost one of his fingers. one man, 34 years old, he's an israeli national, was visiting family. took a bullet to the leg, and moments after that, actually ushered some of the children to safety, and then of course, you heard from noya, 8 years old. what her family has had to endure is just unbelievable. they fled the middle east, fled israel because of the violence there and the rockets. they get to america, come to california. and immediately experience some anti-semitism. somebody painted some red swastikas on their home, and then of course, they have to deal with this tragedy that occurred in the temple on saturday. >> we keep their faces, their images, and in lori kaye's case, her memory alive in speaking about her and the greatest and the life they bring.
at the same time, you have this 19-year-old who is now charged with this horrific crime. he's in custody. what are police telling you about what led to this? >> well, apparently, this is fueled by anti-semitism. he did post a disturbing chilling manifesto online where he voiced support for various anti-semitic acts. also identified with the shooter of the new zealand mosque. he's a 19-year-old san diego resident. was attending a local college here. and for some inexplicable reason, after the shooting, he fled in his getaway car, called police to say he was the guy involved and he was apprehended a short time later. we don't know if he had any kind of weppings training or how he obtained the gun. back to you. >> dan, thank you so much. >> so amidst the tragedy, and a true tragedy, there are truly amazing stories that are emerging. one is of an iraq war combat
veteran who ran toward the shooter when he hurt gunshots ring out, shouting down the gunman and chasing him out of the synagogue. that man is oscar stewart. and he's joining me right nuon the phone. oscar, can you hear me in. >> yes, i hear you fine. thank you. >> thank you for joining me. how are you doing today? >> i'm doing fine, thanks. it's been like a surreal past two days. >> yeah, surreal is probably one of many things you have been feeling over the past couple days. so let me talk about -- let's talk about what you saw, what you heard, what you experienced. you're at the synagogue. you hear gunshots ring out. what did you see when you got to the lobby area. >> what happened is i was in the back of the synagogue. i don't normally stand in the back. i usually sit in the front row, but for some reason, i was in the back. i hear the gunshot. i knew what gunshots were. immediately, i get up to run away. and about -- i took about three
or four steps and i said, you know, unconsciously, i did this, i turned around and ran to the gunshots. my wife said she saw me run by. she told me this later on. she couldn't believe it, that i was running towards the gunshots. as soon as i run to the lobby, i didn't see anybody except for the shooter, and i let out a scream that was unbelievable from what i understand. people keep telling me they thought it was like four people, a chorus of men screaming at once. the priest at the church next door said he heard it when he was giving his service. he heard the scream, you know, it traveled far. more than a football field. so i don't even know how i did that. so as soon as i saw the gunman, he discharged his rifle twice. i was going towards him. when i got to him, i screamed iphis face, and he looked -- he dropped his weapon to his side. he had it slung so he wouldn't
lose it, and he immediately took off running. i was chasing after him. i maintained my distance, i was as close as i could be to him the entire time. he jumped in the car, raised the weapon to shoot. i punched the car as hard as i could. he dropped the weapon again. he turns on the ignition. at this point, border patrol agent, jonathan, thank god he was there and thank god he was trained. he comes out and yells, fall back, i have a gun. i immediately just, like, kicked in instinctively, i fell back. he discharged his weapon five times. he struck the car four times. i want to make it clear that he didn't shoot at a moving car. people say that's ridiculous. he shot at a stationary car and shot low to immobilize the vehicle. but i think that he was trained. i could have been killed in the line of fire. and then we proceed to get the license plate number as the guy speeds away. someone was there with a cell phone. he called 911. we give him the license number.
immediately, i run back into the synagogue, for whatever reason. i get into the lobby, i see the rabbi standing there and ask if he's okay, and he looks at me and says i'm fine. help somebody. i immediately go to the floor where i see a body. she's on her stomach. i didn't know who it was at the time. i yelled, somebody help me. flipped her over. i'm a construction worker. you never want to flip somebody. dr. gill, her first name is gill, he flipped her over and started doing cpr on her. the doctor, he was doing the compressio compressions, i was doing the breath. at some point, he got tired and i started doing both. at this point, howard, her husband, howard kaye comes and starts doing the compressions. his compressions were slower and he did more compressions. i jump off, i see an a.d., i get the a.d., we start applying the electrodes and he said i can't
get a pulse. he goes, so let me check something out. he checks for her pulse. that's when he realizes it's his wife, when he sees her face, when he goes to check her pulse. at this point, he falls down. he just, boom, he's gone. he faints. the sheriff's deputies come in and take over the cpr for both of us. i was about to start compressions again. the sheriff's deputies take over for both of us. someone else grabs the doctor. and somebody screams, did you see my daughter? did you see my daughter? i said i saw your girls outside. they were in the back, they're fine. he didn't take her? no, there was no one in the car but the shooter. >> oscar, i mean, that moment, your wife was there as well, and it makes me wonder, that's just unimaginable when you think about how dr. kaye arrived to help, not knowing who he would be helping, and finally, after
administering help, realizes it's his own wife. >> that was surreal to me, incredible. that just shows the willingness to give. he immediately, he didn't even bother to see who it was. he said i see someone who needs help and he came to help me immediately. that's what he did. i'm in pretty good shape because of my work. i'm an electrician. i was able to do it, but it's easier when two people are cpr. he jumped in immediately. he said let me check something out, he goes. we were trying to apply the a.d., and it wasn't picking up a heart beat. he tries to check her pulse. when he did that, i'll never forget that moment in my life. that's seared in my memory forever. he sees her and like his eyes just like opened up. and he just fell. he was like, boom. he was done. and then the sheriff's deputies come in at the same time.
>> you said that moment is going to be seared into your memory f forever. there's no way to make sense of something like this, but where is -- where is your heart and your head a couple days later about everything you have just lived through? >> you know, in retrospect, i keep telling people, and everyone keeps asking me, what did you do, how did you plan this, how did you do this? i want to tell them it was all instinctive. nothing i did was planned out. i remember everything, like watching a movie, but nothing was ever planned. it was as if i was a hand of god. for lack of a better expression. you know, my training that i had in the military, it kicked in. i knew i had to be close to the shooter so he couldn't raise his weapon to shoot me. looking back, that's what i did. i maintained that distance. i kept on top of him the entire time. i was unarmed, but i didn't even
think about that. i just knew i had -- you know, people ask why did i do that, why did i turn around? i said before i went to the back, i got up from my seat and looked up at the playground and there were all these kids. maybe that was in my subconscious at the time or the fact my wife is on the women's side of the sanctuary, and that's the left side. i was on the right side. closer to the lobby, so maybe i was thinking i have to protect her. really don't know what i did, why i did it. and it still chokes me up, but i know, and some people say, i knew what i was doing or i took action or i was prepared. i just did what -- it just happened. like instinctive. you know, i'm a religious person. i want to say i was an instrument of god at the time. >> thank god for it. thank god for you. thank you so much for coming on. thank you for being prayerful
and for your faith and for talking to us about this. thank you so much. >> you're welcome. >> jonathan is here. i'm getting so choked up. just so much to take, jonathan. >> it's hard. >> it's hard. i saturday here with you six months ago after the shooting in pittsburgh when 11 people were gunned down in a synagogue while they prayed. i didn't think i would be here six months later talking about the same story. in a different community on the other side of the country. >> your statement after the shooting, you said this should serve as a call to action. what's the call? >> well, first and foremost, i think we have to keep in mind lori kaye, who died. that her tragedy, her martyrdom shouldn't be in vain. secondly, we said this and i'll say it again. anti-semitism is at the core of this global terror threat of white supremacy. we need to recognize it for what it is.
there is a through line from charlottesville to pittsburgh to christchurch, and now to san diego county. and it is time for the white house, to congress, to apply the resources to this problem that we applied to the problem of islamic jihadist terrorism since 9/11. >> jonathan, anti-semitism isn't new. but when you list it out, this connection, it's not just one house of worship. it's not just one religion. it's christians, it's jews, it's muslims. it's beyond the attacks happening, the fact they're being targeted. and it something that is different now. >> number one, we're living in this charged, polarized environment today. and we have a kind of going degradation. we have people trivializing and
politicizing anti-semitism and other forms of intolerance. it's unconscionable, but that's different. the lack of decorum deteriorates the conversation to the detriment of all of us. the second thing that is very real is social media. we need to recognize that this poison spreads. this infection spreads. because in part, extremists are exploiting twitter, youtube, and facebook. and other services. this man was on 8chan, posted his manifesto, and there are meanty of others. >> it's so sad that i feel like i need to ask this question, but i feel like we're at this place at this point. are people of faith around the country, around the world, are they safe to pray anymore? >> we ask the same question after mother emanuel, the ame church, where dylann roof murdered people in the summer of 2015. we asked the same questions after oak creek, where a man
went in and murdered people because of their faith and the same question after clolombo an sri lanka. i think it's a sad state of affairs when we're not even safe in the places where we pray. they're our most sacred spaces that have been violated. this was an attack on a synagogue, on an orthodox congregation, but this was an attack on the entire jewish community. this was a terror attack intended to spawn insecurity. >> yeah. >> among all of us. and that's why these attacks on places of worship are so particularly heinous. i must say unfortunately in the jewish community, just in the last few years since i have been the ceo of adl, since we track anti-semitism around the world, i visited synagogues and schools, supermarkets, where jews have been killed simply because of who they are and how we pray. and it's long overdue for this
to end. >> the rison tide of white nationalism and anti-semitism is something no one should ignore, no matter what your faith is, of course. you brought up how from the white house to congress and beyond, about how the actions and conversations need to change. when you hear in president trump, he spoke to the rabbi, and he spoke up, strongly condemning hthis hate-driven anti-semitic attack on the synagogue. but at the same time, after christchurch in new zealand, he was asked the very question, if he thinks that white nationalism is on the rise around the world. and he effectively said no. he said, i don't think so. i think it's a small group of people doing very bad things. that was in march. and his adviser kellyanne conway yesterday speaking to jake tapper, the only way to say it, is she danced around repeated and direct questions on this
very question. is there a rising threat of white nationalism in the country? what impact does that have? >> sure, so let's focus on the facts. the question, is there a rise in white supremacy in the country, the answer is yes. how do we know that? that's what the data tells us. in 2017, we saw a surge of 57% year on year. the highest surge in 20 years. in 2018, we tracked 50 extremist related murders in the united states, 49 of which were people exhibiting an extremist sort of right-wing ideology. 70-plus percent were white supremacists. if we look at over the last decade, three quarters of extremist related murders in the united states, i'm talking 73-plus percent were committed by right-wing extremists, typically exhibiting sort of a white supremacist ideology. what does it matter what the officials say, the facts are the facts and they're undeniable.
what we really need, number one, are leaders to lead, not just in response to a crisis. i am sick and tired of mourning dead jews. i am sick and tired of people violating mosques and churches and synagogues. but i am equally fed up with failing to call this out and re-enforce our values every day. values of decency, of diversity, of our shared humanity. and fairness. that's what we need. not after a crisis. long before one takes place. >> help stop it, stop and change the conversation. the rabbi said yesterday a little bit of light can do a lot to push the darkness away. we all need to do that a lot more. jonathan will be back with us. we have another part of the conversation, more to talk about on this. we'll be right back after this.
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attorney general bill barr is scheduled to make two high-profile appearances on capitol hill this week to answer questions about the mueller report. scheduled is the operative word. will he actually show up is a very real question right now. cnn has learned barr might not show up if democrats were in charge of the committee, of course, on the house judiciary committee, if they plan to stick to the format that jerry nadler wants to stick to for the questioning. the barr balks, it could take this to a whole new legz. manu raju is joining me now.
he broke the story for us. what are you hearing? >> moments ago, the house judiciary committee scheduled a vote in the committee tomorrow to allow for an additional hour of questioning at thursday's hearing. this would allow the members designate it to anyone that they want, potentially staff to question barr for an hour at that thursday hearing. this is a centerpiece of the dispute between house democrats and bill barr. bill barr, they say he does not want to allow staff counsel to be allowed to question him after the members are done questioning, doing their five-minute rounds of questions. he said staff attorneys should not be allowed to question him. that's one big reason why barr is saying he's not going to show up thursday, according to a committee source, if democrats pursue this line of questioning. also, democrats want to go into closed session to look into the redacted portions of the mueller report. barr so far has only allowed a
limited number of members look at the less redacted version. democrats, of course, want to see the full report. nevertheless, this is all turning into questions whether he'll appear before the house hearing on thursday. jerry nadler, the chairman of the committee, yesterday made clear it will not be the attorney general that tells his committee what to do. >> the witness is not going to tell the committee how to conduct its hearing. >> what does it say -- >> then we'll have to subpoena him and use whatever means we can to enforce the subpoena. >> the vote tomorrow should be interesting to schedule the extra hour of questioning for bill barr. expect this to be a pretty partisan debate because republicans are criticizing nadler's tactics here, but it's an effort to say even if the committee has authorized us to have the extra hour, it will be voted on party lines, but they have yet to hear from the justice department about whether or not he will in fact attend
thursday's hearing. >> so this is going to be fascinating how this plays out, and so interesting, the juxtaposition between what's happening in the senate the day before and what we're looking at in the house. thank you so much for bringing it to us. >> coming up, joe biden's first official stop on the 2020 campaign trail. what's his message to pennsylvania voters? who gave the state to trump in 2016, and why is trump tweeting about it already? heart problem. i was told to begin my aspirin regimen, and i just didn't listen. until i almost lost my life. my doctors again ordered me to take aspirin, and i do. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. listen to the doctor. take it seriously. that i never would have imagined. ancestrydna was able to tell me where my father's family came from in columbia. it's just been a reconnection to my roots. 20 million members have connected to a deeper family story. order your kit at ancestry.com. to a deeper family story. ♪
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call it the first big test for joe biden. the newest entry into the 2020 presidential race is holding his first campaign rally. he's doing it in his birth place and a critical prize for 2020, pennsylvania. donald trump won in 2016. a big part of the victory was his appeal to blue-collar voters. today, biden begins his push to win it back for democrats. he's doing it on the heels of the endorsement from the international association of firefighters. arlette saenz is standing by in pittsburgh where biden will take to the stage in a few hours. what will we be hearing from joe biden today? >> well, kate, in just a short while, biden will be kicking off his official first campaign event here in pittsburgh at a union hall, where the campaign
head said he'll be talking about strengthening the middle class. this comes as the international association of firefighters endorsed joe biden for president in a video. this morning, becoming the first major labor group to wade into the presidential contest this year. but we're here in pennsylvania, which as you mentioned, is one of those states that donald trump won back in 2016 that typically had gone democrat in the years previous. and biden and his team are really banking on the fact that he can appeal to the working-class voters who may have voted for trump last time around but might typically vote for a democrat. this is a state that is late in the primary process, but it's a critical battleground state in the general election. already today, it's clear joe biden is on president donald trump's mind. he's been tweeting about him this morning. i'm also told later today, biden will mention the shooting at the synagogue in california, which
could offer him an opportunity to make that argument about this being a battle for the soul of the nation. kate. >> arlette, thanks so much. great to see you. let's talk more about this and bring in cnn political analyst and reporter for "the new york times," lisa. good to see you. >> thanks for having me. >> as arlette is there in pittsburgh and talking about the focus there for joe biden, we get a clear indication president trump is very focused on joe biden as well, and that he's very interested in his campaign strategy of starting in pennsylvania because he tweets about him, saying he's very aware of his travel schedule, saying his first rally is in pennsylvania and then says he obviously doesn't know that pennsylvania is having one of the best economic years in its history. lowest unemployment ever, now a thriving steel industry that was dead. a great future. you don't need to look too far to see how important pennsylvania is not only for joe biden's strategy, but maybe for president trump's strategy too. >> president trump has been
fairly transparent he views joe biden as one of the biggest threats in his re-election battle. and you know, the concern that the president has, which is obviously, as arlette pointed out, a key part of joe biden's strategy, the former vice president could flip some of those rust belt voters that really gave president trump his winning margin in the key states that helped him win the white house. but look, the reality is that before you are the party's nominee, you have to get through a primary. and so that may be a tougher fight in some ways for joe biden, at least at the beginning. the party, there's a sense from some areas in the party they would like to see generational change. that's certainly not the former vice president, who would be 82 by the end of his first term if he were to be elected. and there's also this push where it feels like a lot of the energy in the democratic party is on the left. that's really not where joe biden is placing his candidacy. so it's very early. we just have to see how this all
shakes out. it feels like president trump is jumping ahead, i don't know, a year, more than a year. >> it does look like that for sure. i was fascinated by this new abc/"washington post" poll, and how they asked the question, who are you supporting on the democratic side. instead of reading off the list of candidates to voters, they were polling them and asking who they would support in this list if the election were today, this time, they asked kind of an open-ended question to the voters of name a candidate they currently support. joe biden tops the list, but it's at 13%, but the big takeaway is clear, as you see there, majority of democratic voters and democratic leaning independents right now, they're not naming a candidate. what do you think the democrats running are taking away from that? >> i was struck by that, too, because joe biden is the front-runner at 13%. >> totally. >> this is not the kind of front-runner status most candidates dream of and crave.
we see the poll, a majority of voters are undecided. this is a wide open race and a race with 20 candidates. so this is joe biden's moment. this is his first event. he came in the race strong. there's no doubt about that. he raised the most money in the first 24 hours. but primaries are not won or lost in first 24 hours of your campaign. this is a long road, and i think a lot of candidates, elizabeth warren in particular, comes to mind, see themselves as charting a more slow and steady path, if they can just keep chugging along, building support, building volunteers, they will have their moment, and ideally, you want that moment to come when people are actually voting in primaries. >> very important lesson. at least it plays out for all political watchers. campaigns are not won and loss in the first 24 hours after announcing. good to see you. >> coming up for us, we're covering this. outrage after "the new york times" publishes an anti-semitic
cartoon. this is way beyond being a cartoon. how did it get into the paper in the first place, and what is the times saying about it now? we'll be right back. a new house. is it that obvious? yes it is. you know, maybe you'd worry less if you got geico to help with your homeowners insurance. i didn't know geico could helps with homeowners insurance. yep, they've been doing it for years. what are you doing? big steve? thanks, man. there he is. get to know geico and see how much you could save on homeowners and renters insurance.
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to save 30% on all the medications we carry. so go directly to petmeds.com now. "the new york times" is now apologizing and promising, quote, decision ksignificant changes after it published an anti-semitic cartoon last week. it depicts benjamin netanyahu as a dog with the star of david on his collar, leading a blind
president trump. we'll show it to you this one time so you know the context of what we're talking about, but we're not going to put it up again. initially, the paper released a statement saying it was an error in judgment. then they came out the next day to actually apologize. back with me, jonathan greenblatt of the anti-defamation league, along with brian stelter. brian, first off, "the new york times" put the blame on one editor of the opinion section. to make the decision for publishing this. at first, they did not apologize. backlash set in. they apologized then yesterday. how did this happen in the first place? >> and that's really still not explained. "the new york times" is a great paper, i used to work there, but this is inexcusable. this is something straight out of nazi propaganda. the idea that the editor there, even some editor in some far flung office would see this and think it's appropriate is shocking, and i'm glad there has been this level of concern and
condemnation from the president on down around the world. someone needs to be held accountable. they said such imagery is dangerous. always dangerous, and in a time when anti-semitism is on the rise worldwide, it's all the more unacceptable. they said we're evaluating our internal processes and training. we're airporting significant changes. something will happen. hopefully we'll hear what it is. >> can we be really clear, jonathan, for everyone, can you spell out why this is not just an anti-semitic cartoon? it goes beyond that. >> let's stop dignifying it as a cartoon. like you said, it is propaganda. it wouldn't surprise me if this was published out of tehran or damasc damascus, but it does not belong in "the new york times" or any credible media outlet. as we were talking about earlier, there was a shooting this weekend. the second in six months add a
synagogue, and the shooter in his manifesto talked about myths of jewish control and jewish manipulation, and then they print this propaganda that literally exhibits stereotypes that suggest jewish control and jewish propaganda. look, sometimes anti-semitism is overt. like white men screaming in charlottesville, jews will not replace us. sometimes it's thinly veiled like this in the pages of "the new york times." but it's unacceptable anywhere. >> and it all does damage. president trump is weighing in on this. we just call it a trumpian reaction to it. >> i think he's equivocating anti-semitism and his own presidency and how it's covered. "the new york times" has apologized for the terrible cartoon, but they haven't apologized to me. look, if resentment were fuel, we would be able to power the planet forever. the president's resentments go deep, especially against "the new york times," but it's interesting how they're making it about him again. the story needs to be about how it was published, how it
happened, and this online hate, this radicalization of people, how is it happening online and what can be done? >> we need accountability and action. an apology is not enough. just today, in the international edition of "the new york times," there is another cartoon depicting benjamin netanyahu in sunglasses, while maybe not obviously anti-semitic is insensitive, unnecessary, and offensive two days after the murder of lori kaye in san diego county. this is enough. like, i don't understand why we are still dealing with this at "the new york times." at the number one newspaper in this country and the one that shapes public opinion around the world. like, if they are publishing this screed, why should they be surprised when people are then committing violence against jews? >> we'll continue talking about it, that's for sure. jonathan, thank you for being here today.
brian, really appreciate it. >> coming up, did the trump administration agree to pay ransom to north korea? president trump claims he didn't pay a dime to get otto warmbier released, but now we're hearing the u.s. negotiator was involved in the talks, and he says he confirms to cnn he signed an agreement to pay $2 million to get otto warmbier out. what does this mean now? that's next. every chip will crack. this daughter was home visiting when mom saw a chip in her windshield. >> mom: honey is that a chip? >> tech: they wanted it fixed fast so they brought it to us. >> mom: hi. >> tech: with our in-shop chip repair service, we can fix it the same day... guaranteed. plus with most insurance a safelite chip repair is no cost to you. >> mom: really? drive safely. all right. ♪ acoustic music >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, ♪ safelite replace. has been excellent. they really appreciate the military family and it really shows. with all that usaa offers
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said no. >> we did not pay money for our great otto. there was no money paid. there was a fake news report that money was paid. i haven't paid money for any hostage. >> but this morning joseph yun, the former special representative for north korean policy, the man who was negotiating with the north koreans for warmbier's release tells cnn's jim sciutto at the very least he did sign an agreement to pay that money, and he thinks that directive came from president trump. >> i can confirm that when i went there almost two years ago, i did sign a letter of assurance that the united states government would pay in medical expenses some $2 million. >> and were you under instructions there to do anything, uninstructions from t
the secretary of state or the president or both to do whatever is necessary to secure his release? >> as soon as the north korean side says his bill of $2 million would have to be paid, and then i contacted my boss, then secretary of state rex tillerson to ask him, and he got back to me very quickly thereafter to say, yes, go ahead and sign. >> was it your understanding that secretary tillerson had the president's approval for that? >> my understanding, i never asked him, but that was my understanding. >> this was coming directly from the president who says he never paid such ransoms he called them. now, bolton says the u.s. has not paid this money yet. will the u.s. pay this money? is that your understanding? should the u.s. pay this money? >> jim, i don't know. i left the government about a year ago, and i know until i had left u.s. government had not paid the money. >> all right. joining me now to discuss cnn national security analyst sam
vinograd. sam, you've been in the room with the national security council. some of these discussions happen under other people. with regard to other people being held. what is your reaction when you hear that from joseph yun? >> two reactions. typically hostage negotiations unfold over several years, several months and involve very careful preparatory work to make sure there's no last-minute surprises when someone like ambassador yun shows up in north korea and the north koreans do something and ask for $2 million because they tortured otto warmbier. that means that the national security council often meets repeatedly to make sure that what the other side is saying can be trusted and that there will be no surprises because you don't want to put someone in a position where there hasn't been a discussion on the pros and cons of doing something that the other side is asking. i want to be very clear on thin voice. even if no money has been paid yet, kate, it's a recurring cost for the u.s. government. >> that's what i was going to ask you. it hasn't been paid.
if it hasn't been paid, is it no harm no foul, if you've -- if you now -- if now the united states says that they signed an agreement to pay something, that they had no intention of paying going forward? >> well, president trump saying something that he has no intention of actually doing is nothing new nor is the north koreans making ridiculous requests and this is a recurring cost in two ways. first of it all, it signals that american citizens are cash cows, if you can kidnap a u.s. citizen and torture them that will i pokes more americans at risk at broad. and president trump kicked this can down the road and this is something the north koreans can use as bargaining chip on any other negotiation. this is something that they say the u.s. government owes them in any negotiation that we have with them going forward. >> do you make anything of the fact that john bolton is out there talking about this?
this seems something that great reporting maybe brought this to light, that they are talking about this so pubically. >> they have to talk about it because it came out in the book and what this shows is the disconnect between ambassador bolton, president trump and our colleague ambassador uyn. bolton was not in the white house when he went on television and said that this invoice was signed and what secretary bolton said is that there is no white house communications adviser, and there is not a clear measure on what instruments of national power the administration is or is not willing to use to get host action back. >> one question has been answered. was something agreed to. joseph yun, yes. will the administration pay it? i guess that remains an open-ended question. as sam says the can gets kicked. good to see you. appreciate it. coming cup, a new standoff on capitol hill. attorney general barr
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this time around... now that's simple, easy, awesome. experience the entertainment you love on x1. access netflix, prime video, youtube and more, all with the sound of your voice. click, call or visit a store today. welcome to "inside politics." i'm phil mattingly. john king is off today. a congressional clash over who gets to grill the attorney general. democrats return to washington wrestling with impeachment and the and joe biden gets a second chance at a first impression. his campaign xwadebut wants to focus on the middle class. and