tv New Day With Alisyn Camerota and John Berman CNN August 12, 2019 4:00am-5:00am PDT
>> that's class on the court there. >> look at the ladies leading the charge there. just saying. >> and simone biles is very good at gymnastics. >> better than tom brady. >> at gymnastics? absolutely. coy wire, thank you. anthony scaramucci joins us live. "new day" continues right now. >> epstein was discovered in his cell here. sources saying he died by suicide. >> the prison warden who had to approve of him being taken off of suicide watch will have to answer to those questions. >> the president sharing a conspiracy theory linking the clinics to the death. >> he's whipping people up into anger. what he's doing is dangerous. >> presidential hopefuls making their case to iowans. >> we have this notion that if you're poor you cannot do it. poor kids are just as bright and talented as white kids. >> joe biden is not playing with a full deck. >> he continues to lead in the polls but other candidates are moving up. he's under pressure here.
welcome to our viewers in the united states and all around the world. this is "new day." i'm john berman. alisyn is off. erica hill joins me this morning. great to have you here. >> good morning. >> and this morning we have what could be a dramatic change of heart from one of the president's longtime allies. anthony scaramucci, the former white house communications director at least for a brief period of time, but a long-time defender of his former boss's action in the white house, is issuing a warning. you may need to find a new candidate in 2020. >> that news coming overnight in an interview with axios. comparing the @ed. si to the chernobyl disaster. >> so what was the tipping point? and is this a sign of things to come when it comes to the president's supporters? joining me now, anthony scaramucci one-time white house communications director and author of "trump: the blue
collar president." thank you so much for being with us this morning. with this axios interview, you compared the president to chernobyl. something of a nuclear meltdown. then you went on to say a couple more weeks like this and country over party is going to require the republicans to replace the top of the ticket in 2020. a couple more weeks like this, you say. a couple more weeks like what? >> well, the last time i was in this chair with you, john, we were talking about the racially charged rhetoric that led to a whole twitter nonsense from the president and obviously he then left to go to the two shooting areas. and so now he comes back from the two shooting areas, that was a total catastrophe. the only thing he was doing in those areas was talking about himself and praising himself and crowd sizes. so it just -- one day after the next it gets worse and worse and worse. and in the meantime, as you know
in a chair like this orinside your studio or elsewhere, i got fired two years ago and have tried to stay very loyal to him and very loyal to the agenda. because i think the policies are very, very good for the american people. but the rhetoric is so charged and so divisive that we have to all just take a step back now and say what are we doing, actually? so one thing that i find reprehensible and the president continues to do this and i think what will end up happening is sound and reasonably minded young men and women in the party will say we can't do this. he is giving a license to hate. to go after each other. and he does it on his twitter account. let's just stop for a second and think about this. we ignore it, but he goes after people personally. going after me personally, no problem. i'm a big boy. i can take it. but he goes after individuals as
the president of the united states on his twitter account. okay? which incites hate, which incites death threats. i mean, at some point i think the people in my party will have to look at all this stuff and stop being anest sized to it. the trade war thing is going to end up in an unexpected outcome. we can talk about that if you want. but lastly, how are we all tolerating this? so to me, i'm just saying, you know, last week arguably one of the worst weeks in his presidency. and again, i'm not talking about things that happened to him politically from a legislation point of view or things like that, but just sfr the way he's acting as a human being. to me, couple more weeks like this, i really do believe there will be a ground swell in the party where people say, hey, the policies are great but you're setting us up the way jimmy carter set up the democratic party where they went into the
world for 40 years. those are my opinions. i'm proud to state them. and you know, listen. i mean, if you saw the chernobyl series, it did not end well. so we're in the first two episodes now. let's see how this thing unfolds. >> are you calling for a change at the top of the republican ticket? >> well, i'm calling for it to be considered, yes. i think you have to consider a change at the top of the ticket when someone is acting like this. when someone is that lax, intellectual curiosity to take ideas from friends. just to give you an example, last week on this show, you asked me specifically do i still support the president? i said that i did. i go on the bill maher show, i'm asked do i still support the president? yes, i do. however, the racially charged comments, the i ddivisive tweet, the nonsense coming from the president is not helping the country. and so if you're in a place in
your mind where loyal people to you and again, i was fired two years ago he pointed that out on twitter. big deal. blah blah blah. i appreciate the president getting the eleven days right. so thank you, mr. president. but he's out there doing things and you're trying to give him advice but he can't listen to anybody. and if you say something that's one or two sentences off the mark of his support, and i would tell his loyalists, loyalty is not blind obedience unless you're supporting a demagogue, okay? you don't want to ever be like that in your life. >> last week when i asked you if you still supported him, the answer was yes. this morning when i asked if you're calling for a change on the top of the ticket, you said it should be considered. are you no longer as of this morning -- >> i'm now in a neutral -- i'm a republican so i'm not switching parties to support a democrat. i believe in the values and the policies of the republican party. but i'm now neutral on the
president. >> you're knew neutral on the president. >> we'll see how he continues to act. absolutely. you have to get into a neutral position. >> all right. so you are no longer -- anthony, i just don't want to pass this by. so you are no longer an active supporter of president trump and his re-election bid? >> i think that's pretty obvious from over the weekend. the guy's actually dissembling a little bit and sounding more and more nonsensical. and, you know, we're sort -- and many say just let mim act like that. but you're fracturing the institutions and all of the things that the country stands for. so that's not worth the economic policies. that's not worth the gdp growth which by the way is slowing down and the stock market is exactly where it was a year ago. and i do think you have a bigger problem with the trade war than people think. the fed is not cutting rates if the economy is doing super well.
>> anthony -- >> so you've got a combination of things now. go ahead. >> i was going to say, so the one intervening event over the weekend was you had a twitter exchange with the president where he criticized you directly. all the other stuff is stuff we've seen from president trump for years at this point from when he was before president. so what changed exactly over the last two days? >> okay. so you and alisyn have often asked me that and people say, okay, where's the red line where you break from your support from somebody. because remember, loyalty is symmetrical. >> right. >> it's not asymmetric. what i said to you last week was, geez, this is really polarizing. this is very divisive. as a supporter of his i would caution we not go in this. you brought up schotastic
terrorism. i brought up how this charged rhetoric coming from the bully pulpit of the presidency could lead to some unintended tragic consequences. all i said was i wish the president would stop doing that. one scintilla of criticism, you get this sort of backlash. and so for me, it's a combination of factors. he's taking one step too far with the racial charging of his rhetoric and his twitter feet. and you could say, okay, the only reason you're breaking from him now is that he went after you specifically on twitter. and i'll accept that. i think that to me was a big turning point because i'm looking at that saying, wait a minute. i'm out here supporting him. the guy fired me two years ago. i have been super loyal to this guy, super loyal to the president's agenda. but there's something wrong with the guy as a leader if he can't take constructive criticism or advice from people that have been super loyal to him. >> anthony -- >> it tells you that there's probably not a lot of listening
going on inside the white house at which point, you know, we have to shine a light on that. and it requires people to be truthful to themselves and truthful to the country over a specific person. >> one of the things you wrote over the weekend was eventually he turns on everyone. and soon it will be you. and then the entire country. what do you mean he could turn on the entire country? >> well, he has a nihilistic way to his personality. so the minute you say something he doesn't like, he figures he can intimidate you like a bully. john, where in american history or in our movies or in our culture does the bully win? you know? so to me this gruff, intimidating bullying nonsense, strong people have to get together and call it out for what it is. and so that's where i stand on this. and i tried to stay loyal to him. but you can't be loyal to
somebody that, again, is asymmetric in his loyalty. the people know that. the overwhelming flood of texts, phone conversations, and support last night from people that are actually inside the white house, up on capitol hill, former elected officials, current people in positions of power, current elected officials is truly staggering. and so -- >> who? can you give us any names? can you give us any names or characterize the types of people? >> john, it's not fair. but at some point these people will have the courage to speak up on their own. somebody said to me last night -- and there are detractors, too, i want to be balanced here. why did i leak something to axios. i didn't leak anything. it was a totally different thing -- >> i'm trying to get a sense of -- obviously you're not an elected official, but who do you
think you represent? who are the anthony scaramuccis of the world here? what type of republican or trump supporter do you think now is vulnerable? >> i think there's a very large group of people that are thinking about this from an intellectual point of view that are marrying policy to country, the origin of the country, what the country stands for, why we have the first name united and they're stepping back and saying, okay. wait a minute. this is way too divisive. he is the commander in chief and he's supposed to represent everybody. and so when he's going in a direction of being this divisive and using this type of rhetoric, again, using your words schotastic terrorism and, you got to say wait a minute. if you can't take any advice from your friends and you're siloed in.
just random tweet storming people, it doesn't make sense. i know there's a lot of smart, rational republicans. and there's a lot of smart, rational people in the party that will stay wait a minute. it's starting to be more unhinged every day. last week to me was a turning point. you'll say it was because he tweeted at me. >> i didn't say that. the white house is saying it's because he tweeted at you. >> you suggested -- >> i asked about it. the white house said someone had his feelings hurt. it sounds like he had his feelings hurt. i was merely relaying that. >> hey, john. i need this aggravation like a hole in my head, okay? i love my country. i don't have my feelings hurt. trust me. i got fired, didn't get my feelings hurt. dusted myself off, went right back to work. and i supported the president. >> so let me ask about something else. do you regret -- do you regret -- do you regret your years of support for president trump as you sit here this morning? >> no. absolutely not.
because what the president did and i think his value to our society was he opened the door again for blue collar workers who felt left out of the economic system and felt left out of the establishment political powers. and so i give him huge credit for that. frankly wrote a book about that. >> you did. since you quoted me with a phrase -- >> i'm sorry? >> since you quoted me using the phrase schotastic terrorism. i want to quote you of you. saying silence in the face of evil is itself, evil. what's the evil here, anthony? >> there's a pernicious evil in trying to divide the country. so at the end of the day, you know, i'm really a very big-time programmatic person when i step
back and look at where we are as a nation, we could be doing so much better than we're doing right now. we wake up in the morning. we're like, okay. what's he going to do now? what's he going to say? how's he going to say it? and in the beginni inning it wat of entertaining. and you were like, there's real change needed in washington. so hopefully this will provide some level of disruption. but what is this all about? is this about the country? is this about the individual? if it's about the individual, that's not really how the country got set up. >> when you use phrases like evil -- when you use phrases like evil and talking about dangerous, it sounds like you are saying, anthony, that the president of the united states is a threat to the security of the united states. is that what you're saying? >> let's watch how this unfolds. i think that is starting to happen, john.
as i said to jonathan swann last night, if he continues this over the next few weeks, it is the responsibility of people in the republican party, okay? to say, hey, man. we may need a relief pitcher in here. you pitched six strong innings but you're throwing up against the backstop now. and i really believe that. so let's see what happens. i'm a loyal republican. and i've tried to be loyal to him, but let's face it, i mean, he's gone off the rails. we just have to call it for what it is. >> do you have a candidate you're considering supporting for president in 2020 at this point? >> let's watch how this unfolds. the filing deadlines aren't until november. there's a lot of ambitious politicians out there that could look at this and say this is an opportunity to state and reframe the republican party for the future and call on the values of the republican party of individualism and inclusiveness. it's not just the economic
policies. it's the value of that spirit of freedom. and right now you've got a bunch of nonsense going on where you disagree with the guy for one second, he flips out on you. and people know inside the white house that you can't really talk to him. he doesn't take any advice from anybody. and he's beating to his own drum. and people are trying to work around him at this point. and it's a disaster, to use his own words. what you've got going on now is a complete and unmitigated disaster. so let's see how it goes over the next three or four weeks. if he continues with the nonsense. trust me, there's a lot of ambitious people in the country. somebody will poke their head up and say, hey. there is an alternative to this stuff. it's a republican alternative and it's one steeped in the values and traditions of the united states. not this sort of stuff. >> anthony scaramucci, you may want to step away from your phone and twitter account today. i think it will be an interesting place. >> it's all good.
hey. it's all good. you know, you can come after me all day. i get all that stuff and the he's going to -- but you're not going to bully me. i grew up in the same neighborhood. you're not going to bully a guy like me. >> are you going to run for president? >> let's see if he can -- i'm running for re-election in my marriage. and ooii'm on a one-day term. i'm just trying to stay married. and i love my country and i think people have to pay attention to what's going on. remember when the water got thrown on the green witch and she started melting? what happened to all those soldiers? they're in that position right now. let's throw some water on the green witch and let's watch what the soldiers do which is they'll team up with dorothy. that's how the movies go. let's end the bullying and nonsense. >> to be clear, they sang ding
dong the witch is dead. >> exactly. when she gets -- they're all behind her until she gets hit with the water. then she starts melting and they're like, dorothy, i'm sorry about that. you know, she was a little crazy. but now she's melted, i can speak the truth. that sort of thing. >> all right, anthony. we're going to go now as we're getting into the end of the wizard of oz. we do appreciate you being with us this morning and speaking your mind. i do think it is an important day as you are no longer as of this moment a supporter of president trump for re-election. thank you for coming on "new day" this morning. we look forward to speaking to you again. >> good to be here. >> thanks, anthony. there's a lot to process there. by the way i think it was the munchkins who sang ding dong the witch is dead. >> the soldiers came and thanked dorothy. >> i think they're happy. >> i'm sorry about offending the munchkins. >> we'll get into that. and whether republicans would consider a gop challenger to the president as mr. scaramucci is
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you heard it right here on "new day" moments ago. former white house communications director, long-time defender of president trump now saying his former boss may not be the best choice for republicans in 2020. >> are you calling for a change at the top of the republican ticket? >> well, i'm calling for it to be considered, yes. i think you have to consider a change at the top of the ticket when someone is acting like this. when someone is that lax of intellectual curiosity to take ideas from friends. >> let's bring in jeff zeleny, and kaitlan collins. there was a lot to take in there. david, when you look at this, though, we have him saying, listen. we should think about a change at the top of the ticket. and he said in the three to four weeks upcoming and the wouldn't
name names. >> we should talk about the significance of this and the non-significance of this. right? totally significant that somebody who was this loyal to the president in a very public way breaks from him. we haven't seen much of that despite lots of calls for that throughout the last two and a half years. this is a pretty significant break. for scaramucci to say something like trump is a pernicious evil, i don't know how he squares that with not supporting the president. he'll have to explain that. what is not significant is anthony scaramucci's weight with the republican party. when you see 90% of republicans continue to support this president, is anthony scaramucci going to be trusted by those as the way to go in the republican party more than the president? all evidence suggests no, that the president has a pretty secure lock on a significant portion of the base inside the republican party. >> and look. it's interesting. if you chart where scaramucci has been.
up until last weekend, he was an adamant supporter of the president. now no longer a supporter. one thing he has said to us even before today is he has been speaking with people, former white house officials, former cabinet staffers. he success current as well who are near the same place he is. >> and that's what he claims. he's got a wealth of support in the form of messages and phone calls. since he got into this feud with the president just over this weekend from not only lawmakers, he said, but also the president's allies. he said people inside the white house. meaning people who still work there right now saying they agree with him. that's what's sbrefrsing about this. he's saying essentially this is the straw that broke the camel's back. this is too far for him and the racially charged tweets and divisive comments, that's too much. it's kind of the opposite inside the white house based on people we've spoken with. it's the more and more things the president does where people kind of shake their hands, shrug their shoulders, don't know what to do.
but it becomes more muted. because the more things the president does, the less of a crazy reaction within the white house. it's now leading him to now not support the president. >> you mention charlottesville. today is the two-year anniversary of charlottesville. and the comments that came from the president later. i'm not sure jeff zeleny is still with us. we were having trouble with his signal. there he is. glad to see you, my friend. when we look at all of this and what scaramucci has talked about. it may be time for a relief pitcher. but not being specific at all, i imagine that's going to get a little bit of a reaction. . >> look. there's no question that there is some concern about what the president is going to say or what he's going to do.
but the reality here is i cannot even imagine a credible republican candidate wanting to step up and put their hat in the ring here. you know, republicans on capitol hill and across the country have been afraid to speak out against the president. certainly running against him would be a different matter entirely here. so anthony scaramucci certainly represents i guess one view inside the party. one of the biggest accomplishments president trump has had is consolidating the republican and conservative base. 90% of republicans support him. so i do not see that changing at all. and the reality is anthony scaramuc scaramucci, you know, speaks for some. but voters out in trump country, if you will, like the president. and i don't see that changing at all. i think the list is very short of people who would be brave enough to run against him. >> jeff is totally right about the public facing aspect of
this. they're going to dismiss anthony scaramuc scaramucci, of course, and say what he says isn't what we believe. behind the scenes there are a lot of republican lawmakers who do criticize the president and who do say things like what scaramucci is saying there. that's what's interesting about this. talking about the tweets, peddling conspiracy theories. the way he conducts himself at mass shootings. that is a conversation people have in washington a lot of the times. a lot of people who publicly support the president say things like that privately. >> he called it the worst week of the trump presidency. and the framing of it, david, is something that joe biden has very much -- saying the president, he's using the words dangerous and evil and threat though country. that's what joe biden has been trying to do in this campaign. sometimes with success. but then over the weekend there
have been more -- some people call them lapses. some people call them gaffes. misstatements in all the articles this morning as you wake up about joe biden's weekend on the stump in iowa has been that he's been having this trouble speaking. what does it mean? >> yeah. i spent a bunch of time following biden around to a few events in iowa in the last couple days. i will -- and talk to some voters there. there is real palpable concern in the political class. in the democratic operative world wondering if joe biden is the right horse that can go the distance here. voters, i didn't get as much of a sense with them. boone, iowa, he did a small event about 125 people. it was after he made some of these so-called gaffes. you did not get a sense from voters that was high on their concern list. so we'll have to see if this becomes a defining narrative of his candidacy and this is all
the information voters get. we'll see if voters turn on that. but their initial thoughts after these comments is not of great concern. i will say, the thing here that democrats have, plenty of options. so the -- while we see time and time again, this huge desire to place their money, place their bet on somebody who they think can defeat donald trump and right now joe biden sort of is that vehicle, the moment that gets pierced in some passifashi there are other options to look at. >> the question, though, is are there too many options? it's hard to figure out which one they like. what we saw from biden over the weekend and to piggyback on what you said, a number of voters that she spoke with that brushed off all of the concerns. it's not i like this guy for "x" reasons and that's what we hear about why joe biden is ultimately in the view of many the most electable.
despite there being that many choices, though, who could fill that void if, in fact, it doesn't work for joe biden? or if voters start to want someone else. jeff zeleny can do it. can technology do it? >> that's one of the open questions here. you're right. joe biden has remained remarkably -- >> all right. mad lib. david, you want to finish that? >> remarkably ---ed a jentive. >> if he does slip, is there another candidate who steps into that position? >> well, i will tell you right now the sense on the ground talking to a lot of democrats there, elizabeth warren has that state extraordinarily well organized right now. we've got several months to go. but i asked a lot of voters because i'm fascinated by this notion of we want someone that can win. how do you know who that is? what metrics are you using? >> once the election ask over, we'll tell you.
>> one is when there's an actual vote. i think that's why iowa is going to become that much more important this cycle for joe biden specifically. if he loses the iowa caucuses, the entire rationale for his candidacy goes away. >> right. his support is wide, but how deep is it? if he doesn't perform well in iowa, it's not going to inspire confidence for other voters to want to make them their guide. because of course they do care about defeating donald trump. donald trump is not a conventional candidate. he's not going to be beaten in a conventional way. that's the question here. >> if he survives all this, it maybe makes him stronger. thank you, all. protests shutting down one of the busiest airports in asia. why the situation in hong kong is escalating this morning. oral-b power brushing. e's s oral-b just cleans better. it's the one inspired by dentists... with the round brush head. oral-b's gentle rounded brush head removes more plaque along the gumline...
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we do have breaking news this morning. all flights out of hong kong international airport have been canceled because of huge antigovernment protests. this is such an important airport for commercial activity around the world. as many as 5,000 people swarmed the area outside the security check point this morning. violent clashes between pro-democracy groups and police have been erupted throughout the weekend. at least nine people were hurt in hong kong's metro with police firing tear gas and rubber bullets to break it up. many protesters responded with petrol bombs and bricks. a source telling cnn jeffrey epstein was not being hon tored regularly on the night of his
death. he was found dead in his jail cell of apparent suicide. epstein was alone in his cell which in itself was a violation of protocol. he had been on suicide watch late in july what was removed from that watch in late july. ♪ all of me loves all of you that's musician and ohio native john legend surprising the victims in dayton with a concert. legend visited a week after the deadly shating there. before he concert, he toured the oregon district where the shooting took place. he urged people call their senators and demanding they vote for stricter gun laws. i am sure that his presence there was welcomed. you can see how warm it was. fears are growing about a
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in history, things are seeming really solid to me. they always say expansions don't die of old age. they die of policy mistakes. what are you seeing out there? >> i want to echo when you look at the base economy, the base economy is shchuging along okay. it was a deep recession last time and a gradual climb out. so it's not a surprise. i think the economy's doing fine. there are things that are getting added to the equation, in particular the trade war with china, that is having an impact. it's having an impact on growth. i don't think that impact is significant yet, but we're watching that very carefully. i think those are the kinds of things, what's going on with monetary policy, what's going on with trade, how that's all linked. that has the potential to slow down growth if it's not handled correctly over time. >> you've got the president who is really embarking on a tough trade war with china. and then he's at the same time
saying that the fed should be the one to mitigate the damage from his trade war. so in a way, he paints the fed into a corner a bit, doesn't he? >> well, it's -- you know, i think it's very important we have an independent fed. but i would observe and this is not just a u.s. observation, when you look around the world and this is a result of the fact the world has in some way gotten used to the very, very significant, you know, easy money monetary policy that's a result of the crisis. monetary policy to me seems a little bit more attached to markets at the moment. and also to politics. >> is that healthy? >> i don't think that is healthy. i think that's something to watch carefully. you're right. when you put trade policies into place, they do have an impact on the economy. and we have to live with that impact. >> american business leaders for years have complained about chinese trade practices and many say the president is doing the right thing but maybe in the wrong way. that maybe tariffs aren't the right way to do it. is there a better way to do it?
>> i think that's a complicated equation. i'm not a fan of tariffs, but, you know, we need to find a way to push. personally i think we've got to be candid and honest about the fact that this is something that's going to be hard. it's going to be hard for all of us as americans. there will be some friction to all of us as americans for pushing this relationship. because we're economically entwined. but we have to be prepared to get to a better place. >> senators elizabeth warren and bernie sanders want to break up the banks. and they say that the super rich should pay to help minimize or ameliorate the income gap in this country. do they have the right yed? >> there's no question that we've focused on a lot of discussion appropriately since the financial crisis. you know, the first thing i'd just say is legislators around washington have done a good job
of improving the safety and soundness of the system. that's something we all benefitted from. we're in a political election cycle. i have no idea where that election cycle is going to go. there are a number of things you talked about that i wouldn't personally agree with or think are good for all of us as americans. an economy where we want to create opportunity and bring people along. but we have to wait and see. >> what about the free college and wiping out student loan debt that seem to be getting a lot of attention at least in the primary part of this election cycle? >> we've morphed to a place where i think the rhetoric in the country is that the path to opportunity -- the only path to opportunity is a college education. and it's a path to opportunity. but there are a lot of other paths. you look around the world. apprenticeship programs and other skills based training. i think there are a lot of paths to opportunity and i think we have to think about programs and where we allocate our dollars to do what we can do to open up tonight -- continue to open up opportunity to as broad a group of americans as possible. and i'm not sure that free
college for everyone is a plan that will do that. >> what role do corporate leaders have in the gun violence debate? and are your employees making any questions or demands of you? do you advise companies that are in the gun business or retailers in the gun business still? >> first i have to start by saying that my heart goes out to all the people that have been affected by these horrible tragedies. it's just -- i can't imagine what it's like to live through one of these tragedies and this just has to stop. this has to stop. we need our government officials, our legislators to come together. democrats and republicans. and try to improve the framework through which we all operate. goldman sachs does not do business with people that manufacture assault weapons, bump stocks, high capacity magazines. that's been our policy for a long time. we do do business with retailers who sell guns, but we're thinking about what we should do and how we can contribute to this debate.
but at the end of the day, this is not something that private business can legislate. this needs to be legislated by law and i think it's time for our political leaders to come together on something that's so tragic the answer, policy is the answer. >> policy is the answer. at the margin -- at the margin boycotts and discussion but put pressure but we need policy, if you want real bhol sale change in my pip we need policy change. >> it's been two years since heather heyer was killed in charlottesville. her death is not listed as a hate crime. we'll take a look how congress is looking to change that. r set. can it help us fall asleep faster? yes, by gently warming your feet. but can it help keep us asleep? absolutely, it intelligently senses your movements and automatically adjusts
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today marks two years since a neo-nazi ran over and killed heather heyer as she protested a white supremacy rally in virginia. last month the killer received a second life sentence after pleading guilty. >> why hasn't her death been included on a list of hate crimes? >> reporter: the murderous wrath of a muscle car driven by a neo-nazi barreling into a crowd of peaceful counterprotesters injuring nearly three dozen and killing heather heyer. >> i miss my kid a lot.
>> exactly a year to the day before heather heyer was killed, a racist shot and killed this man in tulsa oklahoma ork. the two cases made headlines around the world becoming symbols of consequences of the rise of hate in america. how is it possible two well publicized hate crimes still do not exist in the annual hate crime data reports. what was your first thought when you saw this dat was missing? >> my first thought was wtf, because if that's not a hate crime, what is. >> cnn wanted to find out why the two cases weren't listed in a report about how big or small the problem is. in charlottesville we sat down with the police chief who took the job 10 months after heyer was hild. >> in the numbers the fbi data do not reflect a single hate
crime from august of 2017. how is that possible? >> even the federal government did not categorize this as a hate crime until well after a year later. >> data level starts at the local level and it was charlottesville police that initially did not report this incident as a hate crime. >> the fact it happened when you had literal neo-nazis in the street, it seems dpobl not to look at this as a buys-based crime. >> a lot of information uncovered about the suspect was uncovered after the fact. most people do not want to make a mistake and categorize something as a hate crime that cannot be proven as a hate crime. >> that's not the federal standard. the idea is not that you have to be in the perpetrator's mind to understand exactly what happened at that time. >> it was a researcher at the arab american institute that first discovered the missing data. >> how did you discover heather heyer's death was not counted as
a hate crime? >> in order to get to that, i have to start with jabbar, a. >> for years the family, christians who emigrated from lebanon endured harassment by their neighbor stanley neighbor. >> they kept saying you filthy lib niece, get out of here. >> reporter: in 2015 it escalated, he ran over the mother nearly killing her. miss wrote when arrested he said they were filthy lebanese. elech months later her son called to warn her not to do home. he was fighting with her husband and he had called 911 because he had seen the gun. he was shot while on the phone with his mother. >> not one single day i don't remember my son. >> reporter: police haven't reported the killing as a hate crime because they struggle with intent. >> did the murder happen because he was upset because 911 was
called, did 911 call because he didn't like the friendship his son had with khalid or did it happen because mr. majors didn't like lebanese people living next door to him. >> prosecutors went forth charging and convicting him not just of murder but malicious harassment, which is a hate crime under oklahoma law. >> i don't know of a career cut case as it relates to hate crime. >> he was charged and convicted under oklahoma's hate crime laws. >> correct. >> should he have been counted? >> yes. yes. >> would you say it fell through the cracks. >> when you look at it statistically, i could see how it could be seen as falling through the crack. >> it's still uncounted. these cases illustrate a problem. hate crimes are not federally mandated. several states have mandatory reporting laws but numbers reported by the fbi show about 87% of police agencies that sent in data reported zero hate crimes in 2017. in 2018 at a congressional
hearing, former deputy assistant attorney explained the problem this way. >> weton have the slightest idea how many hate crimes there are in america and we have never known. the numbers currently kept by the fbi are largely useless. >> the fbi agrees that the data is not at all accurate because it says it continually fades the issue of underreporting at the victim and law enforcement levels and faces a problem of law enforcement training on classifying hate crime incidents. the latter is what a new bill is trying to help fix. it's called the jabbara-heyer no hate act aimed at fixing the problem by offering funding incentives to departments for reporting hate crimes. >> people don't understand how data can impact policy, how policy can impact people. >> right now america doesn't know how big its hate problem is. these families say that must change to save the next family from heartache.
now, the charlottesville police department, we spoke to them, say they have updated hate crime data. they tried to do so in april 2019, april of this year. that incident is finally reflected in the state data but you will likely never see it in the data that we all see that is published by the fbi, those annual reports that so many people rely on to get the exact number of hate crimes in this country. it is, for lack of a better word, a mess. >> yes, it is. thank you. newsroom with max foster is next. for our u.s. viewers. president trump just lost one of his fiercest defenders. "new day" continues right now. >> all right. good morning and welcome to your "new day." it is monday august 12th, 8:00 in the east. alisyn is off. erica hill joins us this morning for history. >> it was historic. >> very interesting. you have to consider a