tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN October 30, 2019 5:00pm-6:01pm PDT
but....provoke i but....provoking responses like anyone speak dot? another coded noenlg putin. remember when he stared directly at a solar eclipse? no wonder he's seeing dots everywhere. might as well blame all those ellipses on eclipses. >> this is dot dot dot time. it's not not not. >> jeanne moos, cnn, new york. anderson starts now. given what we learned in just the last few hours it's hard not to see this as another pifbtal day in impeachment inquiry. the headlines alone speak volumes. what lieutenant colonel alexander vindman said in secret testimony. sources present at the deposition telling "the lead's" jake tapper that the nsc official was convinced president trump was personally blocking military aid to ukraine to get the country to announce a probe into the bidens. in other words, pressure designed to force a quid pro quo, leading up to that july
25th phone call with ukraine's president, which the president still maintains was completely proper. >> it was a perfect call. an absolutely perfect phone conversation. it was perfect. that was perfect. >> i made a perfect call. not a good call. a perfect call. >> keeping him honest, colonel vindman does not spell perfection. colonel vindman said he thought the order was improper, adding he believed it would be improper coming from a general as well. that's one headline. additionally today, another star witness, bill taylor, top u.s. diplomat in kiev sent to ukraine by the trump administration, by secretary pompeo said he would testify willingly to end the public phase of the hearings. he has already told lawmakers he, too, saw quid pro quo and described how it worked. on top of that national security
adviser john bolton got the call to testify and just before air time his lawyers told cnn he would not appear without a subpoena. and tim morrison announced he will be leaving his job soon. he was on the july 25th call with ukraine's president. take alone any one of these items is significant. taken together, they all speak to what the president said today he apparently wants to talk about. quoting from his tweet, republicans, yes, that's how he spelled it, go with substance and close it out. in a sense, republicans have not been talking substance. they've been crashing hearings that many of them were entitled to be at anyway, ordering pizza and arguing process or avoiding questions about the evidence so far or the central question, do they believe it's right or wrong for a president to demand, in his official capacity on the global staigs stage, political
favors from a foreign country. it's unclear if this is the type of substance the president wants to discuss. however, we'll take him literally and seriously and talk substance tonight. we begin with one of the lawmakers who has been hearing the testimony behind closed doors. i spoke with democratic congressman jim himes before we went on air. >> how consequential is that confirmation from him given his firsthand knowledge of so many pieces of this puzzle? >> yeah. anderson, i don't want to get into what was said behind closed doors but colonel vindman's opening statement was made available. i want to downplay the importance of the quid pro quo. quid pro quo is what the defenders of the president are saying is essential for the president to have been guilty of something. it's not. you know, people have read the transcript. we know that the president tried to pressure a foreign, new and
vulnerable president to do his political dirty work. so, no quid pro quo is required. obviously, a quid pro quo makes the situation more serious, but i would also point out, anderson, that the chief of staff, mick mulvaney went before the cameras and basically admitted to a quid pro quo. the many of the witnesses, and i say this based on the opening statements made approximate public by those witnesses. many witnesses have pointed in the direction of the notion that military aid, a meeting in the white house were held up as a way of exerting leverage on the new president of yukraine. that is a very serious issue. >> part of vindman's testimony -- i know you can't really go into details on what he said. he believes came from a july 10th meeting between american and ukrainian officials. it seems like of all the witnesses who have testified about that meeting, the only person whose account doesn't seem to match up is ambassador
so sondland's. is his testimony something you -- do you want to hear from him again? >> i do, personally. i don't speak for the committee on this. but my guess is, as you know, anderson, there will be public and open hearings. my guess is that ambassador sondland would be one of those individuals that we would want to hear from. because, and again just referring to the opening statement that was made public by ambassador sondland or by someone, if you read that, there is a bizarre level of being tuned out to what was going on. and there's also some contradiction in that opening statement. on the one hand, you know, he was the one who sent that famous text saying "no quid pro quo." i want to be clear, it's not necessary for there to be an abuse of power. he then turned around and described something that looks an awful lot like using the
resources of the united states, military aid and an oval office meeting to pressure the president to do something that was in his own political interest. >> john bolton's lawyer says he will not appear without a subpoena. is it clear that he would cooperate if a subpoena is issued? >> hard to know, anderson. i'm not current on all the conversations occurring with respect to john bolton. i would just point out that the watching public may think that a subpoena is something that's used to drag people in. often times a subpoena is just used because in a very polarized and political moment, the one we live in today, a witness who may want to come testify may also want to be compelled to do so, for whatever reason. who knows? certainly people who have sort of future aspirations to work in washington, they want to be able to say in the future, i didn't
cooperate. i didn't voluntarily go in, but i was forced to by the congress. i wouldn't read too much into this question of subpoena or no subpoena. >> do you think tomorrow the ruling, when a judge decides whether or not bolton's top aides or one of his top aides has to comply with the subpoena? if the court rules the white house can block their people from appearing, what might that mean for the investigation moving forward? >> i would be shocked if that happened, particularly given the vote that's occurring tomorrow. remember, the vote tomorrow here in congress will be one to, essentially, establish procedures and to formalize what has been happening absent the vote that the republicans have demanded. even though, of course, as everyone knows a vote is not required by the constitution or the rules. after tomorrow, there will be no question that congress and no ability to say i'm sorry, congress isn't actually doing an impeachment proceeding here. courts have ruled time and time again, including the supreme court that impeachment is congress at its most powerful. nobody, not the courts and
certainly not the subject of an impeachment gets to say, gosh, sorry, i don't want to go along with that, any more than an average citizen in this country says golly, i know the police are doing an investigation about whether i did x, y or z. i don't want to cooperate. you show up, full stop. that will be the end point here, regardless of what the circumstances are around it. >> congressman himes, appreciate your time. thank you. >> thank you. today's developments put so much more on the table, which it already had a lot of stuff on it, what with tomorrow's house vote and what it says about the next phase, impeachment inquiry. it will likely include testimony from bill taylor, and lieutenant colonel vindman, who saw what he saw upclose. and hanging overall of it is the question of what john bolton will do. will he break with his old boss? joining us along with former
white house communications director jen psaki and jeffrey toobin. what do you make of congressman himes saying a quid pro quo isn't the be all end all here? >> ultimately that's a judgment for congress. they're the ones who define what an impeachable offense is. it's worth noting that colonel vindman was so outraged by the president's conduct before he knew about whether there was a quid pro quo at all, he went to his superiors to express his concerns about that phone call, saying only that the president is asking a leader of a foreign country for political favors. that's all he was concerned about. that's not a quid pro quo. but it is a very disturbing thing. it was to him. and it may be to congress as well. so, the issue of quid pro quo is one that, you know, has evolved from the evidence.
there is certainly no law that says you can't impeach a president unless you find a quid pro quo. that's up to congress. >> john dean, we don't know what bolton would testify to. we're not -- there's no way of knowing exactly, other than reports that he had described some of giuliani's stuff as a drug deal. do you think bolton is looking for legal or political cover by his attorneys insisting there be a subpoena in order for him to testimony testif testify? >> i think he's probably looking for some political cover here, where he didn't voluntary walk in, and he can keep his credentials with the republican establishment that he wasn't necessarily a voluntary witness. a subpoena would resolve that issue for him. as to the scope of his testimony, anderson, what he can do is very unique. he can place this in an overall context of the national security council's policy and positions
and his disquiet as to what was happening. >> there is another issue as to bolton. there could be a legitimate claim of executive privilege for some of his interactions with the president. i mean, we often talk about executive privilege, and the court has never precisely defined what's covered but interactions between the president's top foreign policy adviser and the president about foreign policy, you could see a court saying, you know what? if the president doesn't want that disclosed i, judge, am not going to disclose it. >> jeff, do you think he might not then testify at all, even if he was given a subpoena? >> see, i don't think -- executive privilege is always defined narrowly. certainly his conversations with the other aides, not the president, i don't think there's any way those would be covered by executive privilege. i can't imagine a blanket prohibition on his testimony. but there could be some questions where there would be a
legitimate invocation of the privilege. >> jen, the reporting from jake tapper, lieutenant colonel vindman told investigators he believed that the president was attempting a quid pro quo, withholding military aid in exchange for information about the biden family. >> that's right. it's been consistent from colonel vindman to almost every official who has testified with the exception of perhaps ambassador sondland. having spent time with officials similar to him, he has probably sat in dozens if not hundreds of these types of meetings, bilateral meetings with officials of several different levels with different countries and he had a sense that something was off, the very specific reference to asking about investigations. even not knowing the specifics about military assistance, he knew that wasn't in line with the briefing paper, with the meetings he had been attending through the interagency with the
traditional process that had been discussing ukraine for months if not years. >> john, you mentioned the idea of bolton maintaining his credentials with republicans. if that is a large, motivating factor for him or a giant concern hanging over him, it might influence what he says, how far he's willing to go in what he says. i mean, if he wants to be re-embraced by the fox news crowd, that might color what he remembers. >> it gives him some cover in even appearing, but once he gets up there, i disagree with jeffrey on the fact that executive privilege is really not at play here. any witness who appears in front of the committee, unless he's employed at the white house, there is just no way to invoke executive privilege unless that witness wants to use it as a shield to not testify. once he goes as far as to go up
there, to invoke executive privilege -- first of all, he can't do it. only the president can do it and it has to be very specific. he would have to review his testimony in advance with the white house. is that going to happen? i don't think with bolton it's going to happen. >> i mean, i -- john has one theory about how this would work. remember, everything that -- let's say he does invoke executive privilege. let's say it's improper, it would still have to go through the courts and it would be -- and that would take time. i mean, bolton has a lot of control here. if he doesn't want to testify, even if he invokes executive privilege in a way that's ultimately seen as improper, that could delay things so long that his testimony would wind up just being not used in any case. >> yeah. we've certainly seen a lot of people from this administration invoking executive privilege in ways that make no sense and, you
know, that seems to have worked for them thus far. sorry, jen. very quickly. >> i was just going to add, there's another factor with bolton. he has long been an advocate for military assistance to ukraine. he has a huge policy bone to pick here. a lot of fellow republicans who have long been advocates of that as well. i'm not saying that's the only factor but that's probably in his mind, too. >> we'll see. we have to take a quick break. new details on exactly what happened july 10th in the white house that led to john bolton reportedly likening it to a drug deal. later the president's attack on lieutenant colonel vindman. with advil, you have power over pain, so the whole world looks different.
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breaking news on tomorrow's action in the house. rules committee just now advancing a resolution to establish procedures for the impeachment committee. establishing procedures for impeachment public hearings, release of deposition transcripts. a number of amendments to the resolution, all of which failed on a party line vote. the rest of the picture paints a run-up to the president's phone call to president zelensky. to the pressure alexander vindman says he believes was being applied at president's behest, holding up military aid to assist ukraine for an investigation into the bidens. then national security adviser john bolton. more now from cnn's sara murray.
>> reporter: weeks ahead of president trump's controversial july 25th phone call with the ukrainian president that sparked the impeachment inquiry, the rift over ukraine spilled out in a series of dramatic white house meetings. july 10th, ukraine's secretary of national security and defense council travelled to washington to meet with then national security adviser john bolton. then special envoy to ukraine kurt volker, gordon sondland and energy secretary rick perry. u.s. career national security expe experts alexander vindman was also there. ukrainian counterparts tweeting great discussion. good team work. we stand with ukraine. privately, though, things were going sour. the ukrainians were angling for an in-person meeting between newly elected president zelensky and president trump, an important sign of solidarity between the u.s. and ukraine as
the country continued to face threats from rusha. ambassador sondland started to speak about ukraine delivering specific investigations in order to secure a meeting with the president at which time bolton cut the meeting short. >> i want to thank colonel vindman for his courage in coming forward. >> reporter: after bolton cut the meeting short, sondland talked with the ukrainians in another room and pressed once again for the demands that the president wanted. the importance that ukraine deliver the investigations into the 2016 election, the bidens and burisma. i stated to ambassador sondland that his statements were inappropriate, that the request to investigate biden and his son had nothing to do with national
security and that such investigati investigations the nsc was not going to be involved in or push. when sondland testified before investigators he offered a different version of events saying if ambassador bolton, or others had misgivings about the propiet of what we were doing, they didn't share those with me then or later. burisma wasn't connected to the bidens until much later. hill told investigators that bolton exclaimed he wasn't going to get involved in whatever drug deal sondland and acting chief of staff mick mulvaney were cooking up, sources told cnn. >> john bolton is a very important witness. he has relevant information. we want him to come in and testify. >> reporter: sara murray, cnn,
washington. >> as of late this evening, his attorney says he will not testify without a subpoena. unclear of whether he will fight a subpoena if it comes. jen psaki, john dean and jeff toobin. it is starting, especially given ambassador sondland's testimony. he has either seemed to have forgotten about a lot of things that occurred. there was a bunch of stuff he said he didn't remember, or he was flat out not telling the truth. someone here is not being accurate. >> right. and clearly at this point, it appears that ambassador sondland is on one side of this in terms of his story line and everybody else who has testified is on the other. >> and it just so happens that ambassador sondland is a trump supporter, donor to the president and that's how he got the job of ambassador. he's not actually a career diplomat. >> that's true. foreign service officers, career diplomats and we're seeing this with bill taylor, they take
meticulous notes and see it as part of their job to protect the institution and also stand between political movements, political appointees and bad actions. this is obviously a terrible case of that, and the national security of the united states. that's what we're seeing play out here. as congressman himes said i would expect the democrats would want to see ambassador sondland again and hear from him publicly to clear up some of the confusion here, we'll call it. >> john, jucht the fact that bolton quickly ended the meeting as soon as sondland starts putting the screws into ukrainians is fascinating. >> it's very telling. the only reason he would do that is because his discomfort with what was going on. this is the sort of thing that makes his testimony before the committee important, and it also could later evolve into a criminal inquiry. whether that would happen while trump is still president or not is questionable. but it is certainly something that's got to be in his mind.
so he might want to go in and clean up his testimony. >> jeff, what about the testimony of rick perry, is that something -- you know, it seems like he is involved in a number of these meetings in this effort. >> it is. we have to judge like what would you do if you had all the time in the world and you could invest and interview anyone you want? you certainly would interview rick perry. the democrats are dealing with a largely self-imposed but a real calendar where they want to get impeachment resolved basically by the end of the year. they have to decide which witnesses they can get, who will not fight them in court and who they can just get right away under oath. sondland, i think, is almost certain to be called back. i want want to call him a person perjuror at this point.
sondland should be given another chance to refresh his reflection and maybe testify more extensively than he did before. >> everyone, stick around. much more to discuss about the events on capitol hill today and tomorrow and another big day in testimony will coincide with that big vote on the impeachment resolution.
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forward, if any? it's really not going to change the white house's level of cooperation. >> you know, i think, anderson, it sets the rules for moving forward. and as jeffrey kind of talked about briefly earlier in the show, you know, democrats have a self-imposed timeline here. they have done a lot of the behind-the-scenes depositions. moving it to the public is also in their interest. so this puts in place some rules. they don't expect republican votes. that would certainly be a surprise. they know they could lose some democrats but it kind of moves the process forward and that's certainly in their interest to the public at this point in time. >> jeff, hearing the president urging republicans to, quote, go with substance. it's almost like he's been watching news reports and people pointing out that the republicans have been going with process because they can't really use substance or are unwilling to or it's more uncomfortable to do that. is substance really on the president's side?
it reminds me of him saying he wants to go testify in front of mueller when, in fact, there was no way he was going to testify in front of mueller. >> the republicans can argue substance any time they want. the president has said over and over again that the phone call with the president of ukraine was perfect. he always uses that word, perfect. i haven't heard a single member of congress, any republican, agree with him about that. you can argue substance if there is an argument to be made. the president's argument is just not persuasive to anyone, even in his own party. yeah, sure, you can argue substance, but you have to have a substantive argument and so far the president hasn't put out any that even persuade republicans much less democrats. >> but he wants republicans to be with him on the substance even though they're not. this is where it becomes very difficult for them. the process argument for them is much more comfortable. >> absolutely. >> john, from your experience during watergate, how much do things change, the public's
attention, the stakes of everything, when an inquiry goes into open hearings? >> they're highly escalated when they go into open hearings, particularly when the white house doesn't want a witness to appear. that only increases public interest. i had that personal experience when they canceled my testimony for a week when breshnev came to the united states and thought it inappropriate i be testifying while a foreign visitor was here. that served to increase the size of the audience and as a result 80 million people tuned in for my testimony. same thing will happen here if they get fidgety about a particular witness. the public picks that up. the media, of course, picks it up and they'll tha will only increase interest in the proceedings. >> you know, jeff, it's also interesting because with the mueller testimony, there was a lot of hype going into it and, obviously, certainly a lot of democrats, i think, were
surprised at sort of the tone and tenor of it. >> well, it's going to be a different scenario. mueller was an investigator. it wasn't a personal witness to anything he described. here, the two most likely witnesses so far are colonel vindman and ambassador taylor. >> vindman. >> vindman, i'm sorry. both of them are eyewitnesses to events that are extremely dramatic and extremely important. it's one thing to hear the colonel -- to have the phone call described by others. the colonel can say this is what i heard. and that's going to be very powerful stuff, to say nothing of seeing him there in his uniform. that's going to be some must-see tv as they used to say on nbc. >> jeff too bin, jen psaki, john dean, thank you. lieutenant colonel vindman is not the first official to be
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scum. the top diplomat in ukraine, vietnam vet bill taylor is a never trumper. just two of the latest vets and public servants the president has attacked. of course, he has done it many times before. there was john mccain, even after the arizona senator's death president trump called him, quote, last in his class. again, not true. then there's former defense secretary and general james mattis who was, quote, one of the most effective generals until this month when he was, quote, the world's most overrated general. khizr khan, whose son died in iraq, he and his wife were attacked by trump after speak at the 2016 dnc and about their son, an army captain in iraq. taxi loaded with explosives barrel thud the gates. he went toward it. his actions saved dozens.
quote, he didn't wear his heritage on his shoulder he wore the american flag, like we all did. mr. khan, thank you. what did you think when you heard the president's attacks on colonel vindman, who still carries shrapnel in his body from an ied attack? >> thank you, anderson. i was heartbroken yet one more time. this decorated war hero, colonel alexander vindman, deserves our gratitude, our thanks. we stand with him in solidarity for his sacrifice, for his service to this nation. he served first when he joined the united states armed forces and then he serves one more time again, at his peril.
it is unhinged, this president. he is beyond shameful. his attack, as you mentioned earlier on our hero, hero of this nation, john mccain, then general mattis, distinguished military leaders and heroes of this nation. he continues to attack. and what is at the foundation of his attack? it's self interest. this president should take a lesson from colonel alexander vindman in serving the nation, in putting the interest of the country above self interest. and to those that continue to support this president, they should remember that irreparable damage is done to the nation when self interest is placed
above self sacrifice. colonel vindman deserves our utmost thanks and gratitude and respect. >> mr. khan, lieutenant colonel vindman came to the united states when he was 3 years old from the former soviet union. he's actually the same age of your sun humayun khan was when he came to the united states. the questions being raised about the allegiances of colonel vindman without any evidence whatsoever. it seems like it's based on sort of old tropes against immigrants. >> well, there is one similarity that captain humayun khan and colonel vindman have, that both of them came to the united
states when they were 3 years old. they both are made in america. they both are symbol of the goodness of this nation, goodness of this country. both of them, best of america. they were made here from the childhood. they learned the service, the valor, the self sacrifice and serving others right here in this country. and anyone that doubts about their patriotism, about their sacrifice really does not understand what it takes to place the interest of the nation above self interest. this president has cowtailed to authoritarian governments to sway the elections, to make a mockery of our rule of law. he has pandered to other governments and he has
compromised these values that enshrine in our constitution and our bill of rights, american values. and he continues to do that. this is what -- and the nation is discovering this, that throughout his tenure in the white house, this nation has discovered that this person is nothing but selfish, failed four-time declared bankrupt businessman that is in the white house. and now he is bankrupting the office of the presidency. but the nation has decided, and more and more people are discovering that he is not deserving of that high office of this nation. >> the military oath of enlistment, soldiers do swear to obey the orders of the president of the united states and officers appointed over them. they also swear to support and defend the constitution of the
united states against all enemies, foreign and domestic and bear true faith and allegiance to the same. it seems that the president cares a lot about the first part of that, little regard for the second part. >> he should take a lesson from colonel vindman in placing country first at the risk of his career, and at the risk, personal safety, family's comfort. colonel vindman has established yet one more time what the armed forces of this nation are made of, what the patriots of this nation are made of. in the history books we will continue to pay tribute to the valor, sacrifice and service of colonel vindman and his family. this president has embarrassed us every step of the way.
and one things that hasc come ot of this, as i mentioned earlier. that the nation has discovered that this person does not deserve the high office of the presidency. >> mr. khan, appreciate your time. thank you very much. coming up next, the pentagon releases the first images of that two-hour raid that resulted in the death of isis leader abu bakr al baghdadi. d. and so has t-mobile's newest signal. no signal goes farther or is more reliable. so you can get more out of the new iphone. better battery life, new ultra-wide camera. and at t-mobile get unlimited for only $30/line for 4 lines on a network that goes farther than ever before. and right now, switch at a t-mobile store and get the new iphone 11 on us! only at t-mobile.
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there's new video tonight of that dramatic special forces raid that resulted in the death of ariana gran of abu bakr al baghdadi. it's taken from an overhead drone. it shows soldiers approaching the large compound at night and shows a series of explosions eliminating a tightly-bunched group of fighters.
after the troops were withdrawn, the entire facility was destroyed. in confirmation that baghdadi was whimpering and crying in his final moments as president trump said on sunday morning. time to check with chris cuomo. >> one of the obvious missteps was going after this guy, vindman. ken burns, the great documentarian has a quite from vindman at 10 years old about what it was like coming to this country when his family left ukraine, he was only 3. really powerful stuff. tonight what we're going to do is talk about once again we're all in on the state of play here and showing how rudy giuliani has been awfully quiet lately. and with good reason. we got senator chris murphy here to talk about where democrats' heads are in the senate on this situation and a man at the
center of one of the biggest hitmen on vindman. >> appreciate that about seven minutes from now. coming up, meet ten people whose work is going to inspire you right now, the ten ten cnn heroes for 2019 have just been announced and how your vote can give one of them $100,000 to continue their work straight ahead. when you take align, you have the support of a probiotic and the gastroenterologists who developed it. align helps to soothe your occasional digestive upsets, 24/7 with a strain of bacteria you can't get anywhere else.
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introducing a razor that works differently. the gillette skinguard has a guard between the blades that helps protect skin. the gillette skinguard. come on! let's hide in the attic. no. in the basement. why can't we just get in the running car? are you crazy? let's hide behind the chainsaws. smart. yeah. ok. if you're in a horror movie, you make poor decisions. it's what you do. this was a good idea. shhhh. i'm being quiet. you're breathing on me! if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. it's what you do. let's go to the cemetery! (mom vo) it's easy to shrink into your own little world. especially these days. (dad) i think it's here.
(mom vo) especially at this age. (big sis) where are we going? (mom vo) it's a big, beautiful world out there. (little sis) whoa... (big sis) wow. see that? (mom vo) sometimes you just need a little help seeing it. (vo) the three-row subaru ascent. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. all year long we've been introducing you to incredibly inspiring people who are changing the world. we call them cnn heroes. we receive thousands of nominations from all over the world and today we announced top ten heroes and here they are.
>> from denver, colorado, after seeing families lose their hopes. in ethiopia, she's changing the lives of women and girls. she's battling the stigma surrounding men struation with her innovative work. >> donkeys across america suffer neglect and abuse. from dallas, texas, richard miles served 15 years in prison
for a crime he did not commit. he's helping others navigate the challenges of returning home. >> hunter montoya is giving young people hope and healing through the arts. mary robinson from mountainside, new jersey, is helping families grieving and cope with the loss of their loved ones. from india, he's sparked a volunteer movement to save the ocean. and from ann arbor, michigan, zach has turned gaming into therapy for sick kids in hospitals. >> we want to congratulate the top ten c n n henn her n nn her. go to cnn heroes.com to learn how to vote for the cnn hero who
inspi inspires you the most and tune in as we celebrate all the heroes sunday december 8th at 8 p.m. eastern. i want to head over to chris right now for "cuomo prime time." >> are democrats about to snag their biggest impeachment witness yet? we have big news on that front. and we have a key senate player here tonight with a you oo crane connection of his own. plus, one of the biggest assaults on a key witness, colonel vindman is about to get blown up in this show in minutes. so what do you say, let's get after it. the president's former national security adviser john bolton, is he the next big witness. a source tells cnn he was invited for next thursday. his lawyer said tonight it's not going to happen without a subpoena. that's arranged easily enough these days. meanwhile, a bolton top nsc deputy just resigned on the eve of his appearance before