tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN November 27, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm PST
jeanne moos, cnn. new york. >> i have no words other than thanks for joining us. ac 360 starts right now. >> from america's mayor, perhaps to america's defendant, tonight rudy giuliani's potential legal problems are mounting and now president trump appears to be distancing himself from the attorney he once said, quote, very much knows what's happening. i'm john berman, in for anderson. and on top of that, new reporting from the "washington post" in "the new york times" that says at the very same time rudy giuliani was conducting his shadow diplomacy campaign for the president, attempting to drum up dirt on the bidens in ukraine, he was also working to secure contracts with those same officials that would have paid him hundreds of thousands of dollars. it also appears no deal was ever finalized, but he was essentially trying to leverage his white house connections for money. something he's accused the
bidens of doing, but without any evidence. these late est reports come two days after reports of federal subpoenas for rudy giuliani's associates seeking information regarding his consulting business. until lately, president trump has appeared to stand by his attorney. it appears he is now trying to put a bit of daylight between them. >> what was rudy giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf? >> well, you have to ask that to rudy, but rudy -- i don't even know -- i know he was going to go to ukraine and i think he canceled a trip. but rudy has other clients other than me. >> rudy giuliani, he's your personal lawyer. giuliani is your personal lawyer. so you didn't direct him to go to ukraine to do anything or put any heat on them? >> no, i didn't direct him. >> now, keeping him honest, the idea that the president didn't direct him is somewhat hard to believe. remember in the july 25th call with ukraine's president, president trump said that giuliani, quote, very much knows what's happening. and he said, giuliani would call
him about what they had discussed. difficult to distance from that. now, the idea of the president trying to distance himself from people under fire is hardly new. gordon sondland, quote, i hardly knew the gentleman. michael cohen. quote, he worked for me. you could say more or less part time. paul manafort, quote, he wasn't with the campaign long. and now rudy giuliani, no, i didn't direct him. for more on giuliani's problems, one of the "washington post" reporters who broke the story about the dealings in ukraine, matt sabatosky, thank you for being with us. what are the details of the negotiations giuliani was working on in ukraine? >> starting around february, which is the same time period that rudy is trying to press ukrainians in this in particular for biden investigations, he's talking abo talking about a contract with
lutsenko. there are no details of the draft. maybe he will get a $200,000 consulting fee, $300,000 consulting fee. they contemplate involving some other allies of the president, lawyers here in town. joe degenova. it never comes to pass. it was contemplated rudy would do some work for this guy particularly with some asset kind of recovery mission he wanted. it seems clear the implication this guy was trying to buy some good will with a person close to the president. ultimately never comes to pass, but it's just a really interesting thing that we sort of reported on today. >> interesting is one way to put it. forge it would have given him a way to get cash from a client who was potentially getting him information on the bidens which would have helped his other client, president trump, whom giuliani doesn't charge. did i get the sequence right there? >> yeah, there's this weird confluence of interests here. you have president trump who wants to investigate the bidens and he wants the ukrainians to
do that. you have the ukrainians who want help recovering what they believe are stolen assets, and also just general influence in the u.s.. and they think trump has that. rudy has that. and then you have rudy who is trying to make money kind of in between the middle of them. it's just a very interesting, as i say, confluence of various competing and parallel interests. >> the words money and influence come up a whole lot in that last paragraph of yours right there, matt. just final bely, what does rudy giuliani have to say about all this? >> well, rudy today, i can't say he disputed the reporting, but he has harped on the idea he ended up getting no money. that no deal was ever consummated. that is sort of important from a legal perspective. if he had agreed to lobby the u.s. government on behalf of ukrainian officials and didn't register under this thing called the foreign agents registration act, that could be a crime. so it is sort of key that he doesn't ultimately apparently ink a deal like that. but these draft deals themselves
could be evidence that he was attempting to do that. just because he didn't ink these deals does presiden't mean ther legal problem. that's been his response today, to harp on the fact, hey, i never actually went through with this. >> matt, thanks so much for joining us. terrific reporting. have a happy thanksgiving. >> thanks, you, too, john. >> let's follow-up with legal analyst, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district which is investigating associates of rudy giuliani. senior political analyst and columnist kiersten powers is here and senior political commentator former republican senator rick santorum here as well. ellie, does this put rudy giuliani in any further or more legal jeopardy? what are the i am plmplications? >> parnas is indicted. rudy giuliani himself is being investigated by the southern district, which he used to lead. we know that that whopper subpoena got served the other day relating to rudy's business
listing all the crimes. the potential rhyme i see here is what matt referred to, foreign agents registration act. what that says is if you are representing lobbying for a foreign interest, foreign national, you have to register with the u.s. government so that government officials up to and including the president will know who they are talking to and who they are aligned with. as matt said, the fact that he didn't get paid is helpful to rudy because if he had, there's no question he's lobbying. but you don't need to have a payment. you can still be lobbying for free, for other consideration, for in exchange of favors as could have happened here as well. so it's just one more iron in the fire for rudy. >> yeah, he tried to get the u.s. ambassador to ukraine fired. he ultimately succeed ed in that. who was he doing that for? that could be a key question. >> exactly. remember ambassador yovanovitch picked a fight with losenko on anticorruption initiatives. >> ellie, what about the political jeopardy here? i said this before. if you ask any republican in congress how far they're willing
to stick out their neck for rudy giuliani, what they will tell you is not at all. not at all. he's nothing but trouble for the republican argument right now. how do you see it? >> i mean, it shows at a minimum that he had some bad judgment here. i mean, when you're there to, to represent the president as he clearly was there doing, you don't, then, solicit -- well, again, to be fair to rudy, what he said is that he was solicited and that he was simply responding to the solicitation. and that there was no contract ever consummated. you can't run into a foreign agent issue if there's no contract to hang your hat on. so i don't think there is a real legal issue here. but just poor judgment on his part if engaging in any kind of back and forth with someone who is in the middle of the ukraine investigation. >> it's a whole lot of back and
forth, kiersten, not just for this contract, but he's trying to get these guys to do work for him investigating the bidens, and then you tie in the u.s. ambassador. the list goes on and on. the questions just keep mounting. >> i also think -- let's remember back to what donald trump ran on, draining the swamp. this is just very swampy behavior, right. it also shows why it's not a good idea to have somebody out sort of freelancing, doing this shadow diplomacy that really is supposed to be handled by people who are appointed to positions in the u.s. government, who are held to the highest ethics standards that rudy giuliani is not holding himself to. so even if he didn't do anything illegal, he certainly did something improper. i mean, there is also this argument we keep hearing from trump people saying they weren't successful in their scheme, so it doesn't matter. you know, it seems that he was, you know, willing to do this. at least according to the
reporting. and he was telling lutsenko he would going to have to pay money to get a meeting with the attorney general, right? so this is extremely shady behavior at a minimum, and this is the president's personal lawyer. >> personal lawyer who also isn't getting paid at all, which is also interesting -- >> he's obviously trying to get paid other ways. >> get paid some someone. senator, i want to ask you what we heard from the president about all this, he didn't direct giuliani to do anything. again, that sort of contradicts what he was saying to president zelensky in the july 25th phone call. according to the rough transcript, the president says of giuliani, quote, i would like him to call you. i will ask him to call you, end quote. and also a few weeks ago, giuliani tweeted, in part, quote, the investigation i conducted concerning 2016 ukrainian collusion and corruption was done solely -- solely as defense attorney to defend my client. in other words, everything i did, i did for the president. it's just hard to distance from that, isn't it? >> well, yeah.
i think, again, trying to read in what i can see is a light fair to the president, which is one thing to have someone sort of assigned to do some work in that area, another thing is to, quote, to direct it. what the president is saying, look, i wasn't involved in the details, i didn't direct anything. i just -- i left it up to rudy to sort of work on this. and i think you can -- the statements are not inconsistent if you take the word direct as to mean to actually point him and have him do specific things, which i really doubt the president was having him do. >> ellie, you worked in the southern district of new york which is where rudy giuliani came from, among other places. the president keeps referring to him as a vaunted crime fighter. is that the same rudy giuliani here? i'm not sure he butt dials reporters while making phone calls about foreign interactions. >> and cyber security genius, let's remember, as well. it's sad when you step back for a minute because he was a legendary prosecutor in the
southern district of new york. his portrait is up on the wall with other u.s. attorneys that served over the years. there's no way he's the same person now. he's changed. you wouldn't -- one thing they teach you at the southern district is you don't go anywhere near the line. if you're in a gray area, you get out of t. we used to say if you're asking, then you know you're in a gray area and get out of it immediately, right. so he is definitely in gray areas. the fact that he's under investigation by the southern district itself tells you he's come too close to the line. we'll see whether he crossed it or not. >> gray might be the brightest color he's dealing in here. friends, stand by. we have more breaking news. "the new york times" released there is a report on long-standing claims of spying on his 2016 presidential campaign. later more push back, new push back from the fired navy secretary on the seal that the president ordered to have his rank reinstated. with advil liqui-gels,
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more breaking news tonight that knocks down conspiracy theories peddled by the president and his supporters the past several years, "the new york times" is reporting the inspector general for the justice department found no evidence that the fbi attempted to place under cover agents or informants inside the trump campaign in 2016. these latest findings according to the times are expected to be included in the i.g.'s report scheduled to be public december 9. while the report does criticize some fbi leaders for their handling of the investigation in some ways, the times says it under cuts claims by president trump and his conservative allies that fbi officials spied on his campaign. this might be unwelcome news for the president and his supporters who time and time and time again claimed precisely that. watch this. >> major developments again
tonight on the deep state spying on the trump campaign. >> to spy on the trump campaign. >> spy on the trump campaign. >> i'm shocked to hear they put a spy in the campaign. >> deep state spying scheme. >> spy inside the trump campaign. back to the fbi. >> fbi spies or maybe two spies. >> it looks as if there could have been a second spy. >> the spy revelations. >> spies in this campaign. >> ran a spy ring. >> a spy to infiltrate his campaign. >> so to review, no spies. and we could have played several more minutes of sound like that. back with us kirsten powers and rick santorum and josh, special agent and cnn law enforcement analyst and author of a book relevant to this conversation, cross fire hurricane inside donald trump's war on the fbi. josh, i want to start with you. i'm sure you're shocked the fbi didn't find any evidence to back up these allegations or the i.g.
report didn't find frds evidenc. >> there was a political narrative to start. let's just say at the outset, who did this investigation. this wasn't a partisan. this was an independent entity inside the justice department that is responsible for unearthing wrongdoing by fbi employees. it is also important to say this is not a clean bill of health for the fbi according to "the new york times" reporting. there is a fault found by employees. there was a political operation inside the fbi working on behalf of president obama for the political purpose of bringing down donald trump is undercut, yet that is the narrative that we have continued to see time and again, john. >> kirsten, to you. i'm sure we're going to get tons of apologies now. that sound clip we just played was really stunning because that was a coordinated orchestrated effort by the president and his allies, some of whom are in the media to spread what now appear to be lies and misinformation. so, you know, like i said, where is the apology going to be?
>> well, there is not going to be an apology because i think that they're -- because they did identify some problems with the fbi, they were lower-level employees mainly, but they did identify some problems and we're very critical and rightly critical where you have an employee who doctors an email, cnn i think broke that story. and that's obviously, you know, absolutely terrible and should not have happened and that person should be held accountable and they will be held accountable. i think what will happen is you will have the trump supporters latch onto that and ignore the broader story, which is that the underlying claims against the fbi were allegedly, at least, debunked if this reporting is correct. that the allegations the president and his supporters were making against the fbi just are not founded. >> the criticism of the investigation is real, and i'm going to ask josh much more about that in a second, senator. but the specific claim that was made -- and we played the sound
again and again and again, there was a spy or spies, multiple, placed inside the trump campaign. the inspector general says that's not true. and, look, even the u.s. attorney general bill barr trafficked in that notion publicly in the hearings, right? >> well, look, i mean, what we have here is a leak and a leak that is clearly a leak to put a particular spin to a particular news agency, "the new york times," which is certainly not a pro-trump news agency. and we're running with this as if it's fact. we're going to know in about ten days whether -- what this new leak is and this new spin on this i.g. report, whether it's true or not. i can tell you in talking to people that, you know, are talking to other folks who have seen or -- seen this report are not saying the things that you're saying here. they're actually very much looking forward to this report. and they think this report will be very damning to the fbi.
>> i hope you come back -- >> hold on one second, josh. come back with us in ten days, senator. >> i look forward to t. >> i know a little something about leaks being a reporter who has worked hard in this business for a long time. it seems to me that leaking this information on the wednesday before thanksgiving, you don't want this publicized. you're trying to sneak this out there. this smells a little bit like the type of leak that maybe the administration wants to get out there when people aren't paying attention, but we'll see on december 9th. josh, to you, the seriousness of the infractions that are listed here, i don't know if the word is misconduct, but it seems to be poor coordination, clumsy work. one criminal referral having to do with falsifying records, how serious is that? >> important because they have to comport themselves according to policy and law. if there is anyone found with law enforcement powers found to abuse that power, that person needs to be held accountable. with the person who is alleged to have doctored some type of
document, that sounds like criminal activity. that person should be prosecuted if it is borne out. there is a conflation between reports of this low-level information and this larger narrative that there was some type of attempt by the obama administration to spy on president trump and his allies. and i'll just add that includes our fellow panelists here, former senator rick santorum. on this network last year, he said, and i quote, most republicans see a real problem within the government and within the obama administration of politicizing not just d.o.j., but the irs and every other agency of government to come after conservatives and republicans, continuing this narrative that somehow the fbi was weaponized by the obama administration. this reporting does not appear to bear that out. last point i'll say on that's correct we just heard the senator say he talked to someone who talked to someone who knew about the report. that sounds like a leak. >> senator, quickly? >> yeah, guilty. obviously there's a lot of people putting spin on this and "the new york times" is putting their spin on it. i'm just telling you that i've
heard from other people who have a very different spin. we'll wait and see. we can speculate all we want. but we'll wait and see here. all i do know is that there's -- there was a hearing schedule for next week that has now been postponed and that to me is probably not a good sign for those who think this is going to be a banner day for the fbi. >> we'll see the report soon enough. kirsten, i want to close this with you. i happen to think "the new york times" is solid here. they have good reporters on this. we'll see the report when it comes out. this gets to the bigger problem of the spin machine that the white house has here, how they're able to create a year of questions and a year of noise about the idea of a spy within a campaign. again, when there seems to be no basis for that at all. >> right. and i think the thing is once you do that and you have somebody at the level of the president of the united states pushing this narrative as well, you really can't put that genie back in the bottle. i think the damage has been done
to the fbi. president trump came into office and he has sort of systematically attacked every institution that, you know, that most americans used to hold in hirie expect. not to say they're perfect, you know. i certainly have been critical of the fbi before, but he has systematically gone after every institution and tried to turn americans against them. >> josh campbell, kiersten powers, rick santorum, here's what i would like for each of you to have a wonderful and happy thanksgiving. >> same to you. >> same to you. >> a member of the house judiciary committee joins us to talk about the latest "the new york times" report that undercuts the president's defense. what the president knew and when he knew it. that's next. i am all about living joyfully.
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new reporting tonight on whether the white house will accept the democrats' invitation to be part of wednesday's impeachment hearing on capitol hill. two officials tell cnn that currently -- that's the keyword currently -- the thinking inside the white house is it will likely not send an attorney to the house judiciary hearing. no doubt, part of the problem, new reporting keeps undercutting president trump's defense. the latest that he knew about the whistle-blower complaint well before telling gordon sondland that he wanted, quote, no quid pro quo from ukraine. so if that report is true, this is the time line as we now know it. on august 12, the whistle-blower filed his or her complaint with the inspector general. "the new york times" is reporting someone in late august -- at some time in late august, white house lawyers told president trump about that complaint. shortly after that, in early september, gordon sondland had his no quid pro quo call with
president trump. days later, congress was notified of the complaint and on september 11, the aid was released. as you can see, this latest time line makes it clear the president was well aware of the whistle-blower's complaint prior to claiming no quid pro quo, and prior to releasing the aid. for more now on the flood of new reporting we are still getting about what the president knew, congressman steve cohen and member of the house judiciary committee who is taking part in next wednesday's hearing. so, congressman cohen, given the fact each day it seems we learn more about what the president knew and when he knew it, are you concerned that this impeachment process is being rushed through before all the facts are known, more stuff may still come out? >> well, i think things will come out. things will come out for as long as he's president and after he's president and we will continue to pursue those issues, and we can still have hearings and intel in judiciary on actions he took that are violative of the
constitution, violative of law, that affect our national security. all of those things can still be subject for hearings and possible -- if there is something that comes out that's impeachable, that doesn't mean you can't have another impeachment. there's no rule that you went once and that's all. >> there are reports rudy giuliani was to be paid bayou crane's top prosecutor. it seems like all roads lead to, through or from rudy giuliani. i know he's been subpoenaed for documents, but why not try to get him to come and testify before congress? >> well, i think we could request it, but i think he'd go through all the same stone wall rigmarole the others in the trump team have done to avoid testifying. none of them want to testify because they've got a choice there of telling the truth or suffering from the -- to charge of perjury.
none of them want to be in the same boat as roger stone, be convicted of lying to congress, lying to committees or reports or whatever, and none of them want to tell the truth. so they're going to avoid it at all possible reasons. and all roads lead to giuliani. all roads lead through russia. so you have a combination that's really kind of ironic what's happened to america's mayor. >> so cnn is reporting that while a final decision has not been made, the white house likely will not send an attorney to the house judiciary committee hearing next week, which you will be a part of. how, if at all, will that impact what your committee is trying to accomplish in this hearing? >> well, i think it will hurt the trump defense that they're not being given due process because they are given due process and they're not taking -- availing themselves of it. when you complain and complain and complain and then you have an opportunity to put your story to the american public and you don't want to do it, and you don't want to be subject to cross-examination yourself, it shows you don't have a very good story and a very good defense.
they don't have a very good defense. all they've got is certain republicans who will jump up and down and say it's a circus and make it into a cartoon show and try to do all they can to rattle the chairman and disturb and not bring up any challenges to the facts that have been clearly shown that he and the team were all in cahoots. sondland laid it out, they were all in the loop. >> you brought up complain, complain, complain. that's what your republican colleagues are doing, as if on cue, the house judiciary committee doug collins, this is what he tweeted this morning. he wrote for democrats to claim next week's hearing gives donald trump a chance to defend himself is a joke. instead of bringing in adam schiff under oath or bringing in academics whose minds are already set against potus to give their opinion on this sham impeachment. so what's your response to congressman collins? >> the majority gets to pick three witnesses. the minority gets to pick one
witness. we'll have one witness who they chose, we'll have three. that's the way it works. that's the way it worked the eight years republicans were in charge, they never complained about t. bring in adam schiff, adam schiff doesn't have any firsthand knowledge. that's just a ruse. he doesn't have anything to tell us. if they want to get the name of the whistle-blower, the whistle-blower is protected. that's why you protect whistle-blowers so they won't be outed and have a president who says they should be given the penalty for treason that was used in older days, which was an execution. he's putting the whistle-blower's life in jeopardy, his job certainly to go. and that's just not the way the system is supposed to work. this is all -- they just throw in everything they can rather than deal with the facts that the president and his team subverted our constitution -- used our national security and put it in jeopardy for his personal political benefit. >> congressman steve cohen, we want to thank you for your time and wish you a happy
thanksgiving. >> same to you. nice to be with you. >> up next, the president reversed this navy s.e.a.l.'s demotion after he was acquitted of a murder in iraq. the navy secretary did not agree with the move and has now lost his job. tonight he's speaking out again against the president, the commander in chief. his message when 360 continues. she's so beautiful. janie, come here. check this out. let me see. she looks... kind of like me. yeah. that's because it's your grandma when she was your age. oh wow. that's...that's amazing. oh and she was on the debate team. yeah, that's probably why you're the debate queen. - mmhmm. - i'll take that. look at that smile. i have the same dimples as her. yeah. the same placements and everything. unbelievable. the same placements and everything. (loud fan noise) (children playing)
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tonight the navy secretary forced out of his job is speaking out again and firing new attacks against the president. now, it's been a busy week so a reminder here. navy secretary richard spencer was ousted last weekend after he and the president disagreed over the reinstatement of a navy s.e.a.l. who was acquitted of murdering an isis fighter in iraq. the seal eddie gallagher was found guilty of posing for a photo with a body of the fighter which is against regulations. defense secretary mark esper said spencer was fired for going outside the chain of command and proposing a secret agreement with the white house. spencer is not going quietly. in his resignation letter he said he could not, quote, in good conscience, unquote, obey the president's order. he blasted the president again in a t skrrks interview. in a "washington post" op-ed, i was fired as navy secretary. here's what i learned because of it. spencer writes about the president, quote, this was a shocking and unprecedented intervention in a low-level review. it was also a reminder that the
president has very little understanding of what it means to be in the military to fight ethically or to be governed by a uniform set of rules and practices. joining me for his take, rear admiral kirby during the obama administration. admiral, great to have you with us. it this is a scathing rebuke of the a president on top of a scathing rebuke of the president on top of another scathing rebuke on the president. this puts it in bigger terms, in really national security terms. what do you make of it? >> he's certainly not going quietly. he's trying i think in this op-ed to frame it in a larger narrative of the danger of having the commander in chief, who is not familiar with processes and the rule of law necessarily on the military battle field, getting involved in what is essentially an administrative review process. this last review process for eddie gallagher was not about a trial system. it was about an administrative review. i think that's the larger story he's trying to say here. >> yeah, and spencer points
out -- he doesn't think the president understands how the military works, set of rules and practices and principles that it's based on because the president went to help a single individual who happens to be a political supporter and was asked for help on fox news. >> right. so, a couple of points here, john. i don't think we should hold it against the president that he doesn't understand what it's like to be in the military. lots of presidents have been elected to the oval office without serving in the military. i don't think we want to live in a country where you have to be a veteran to be president of the united states. but he did get involved from the very, very early stages of the gallagher case all the way through it and at a very tactical level. what concerns me is, a, the message this sends to the troops, 99% of them who aren't getting in trouble. what this means about the credibility of the justice system over them going forward. and then the second concern i have is what happens if now -- and i'm postulating here -- if other troops that are now going through the justice system for whatever offense, now just want
to appeal to fox news or right wing veterans groups or the president himself. is he going to get involved in all of these? because he's opened up now potential pandora's box he's going to have to deal with. >> it would be the smart move. if you're in that circumstance, why wouldn't you try that? you're throwing up percentages here. i want to read a different part of spencer's piece which is even more scathing. he writes, americans need to know 99.9% of our uniformed members always have, always are and always will make the right decision. our allies need to know we are a force for good and to please bear with us as we move through this moment in time. it's that last line. please bear with us as we move through this moment in time. he's basically saying, president trump is a blip. >> yeah, the question is exactly that. how long is this moment here? and will the president -- you know, spencer's headline, here's what i learned from what happened in my firing. what has the president learned? i don't know the answer to that. i hope the president has learned to back off the justice system
and let military commanders manage this. it doesn't mean it's perfect. in gallagher's case there was prosecutorial misconduct. the navy did not acquit itself well. sometimes it is appropriate for the commandser in chief to weigh in. i hope the president has learned not to get too involved in the details. the other thing about the last line, john, that's important about the ally ands partners. the message to send them, we will and can hold our troops accountable to the rules -- the laws of war and standards of conduct when we're operating in their country. i wouldn't want them to take away from all this nonsense that we aren't capable and willing to do that. >> very quickly, i want to put your state department hat on. tonight the president signed the hong kong and human rights democracy act into law. it's a little bit of surprise. it enacts tough sanctions on china for its crackdown in hong kong while the trade negotiations are going on with china. it wasn't a certainty, but a signing statement and saying he wouldn't necessarily enact every part of the law or follow through on every part of it. what do you make of this? >> i'm glad he did it.
i actually wish he had not done a signing statement and had not caveated that signature the way he did. we need to see the united states coming out full-throated in support of these democratic protests and these peaceful protests. in fact, moving forward with democratic reforms in hong kong. and he shouldn't necessarily tie it to the trade negotiations. you can do this in a silo. it doesn't mean the chinese are going to like it, but it's possible for to us do that. we've done it before. i wish he had been a little lessee kwichl cal, but i lessee equivocal. i am glad he did it in the end. >> admiral kirby, great to have you with us tonight. happy thanksgiving. >> you, too. >> the democratic race for president, who has the lead and who has fallen, that's next. i'm a verizon engineer, and i'm part of the team building the most powerful 5g experience for america. it's 5g ultra wideband-- --for massive capacity-- --and ultra-fast speeds. almost 2 gigs here in minneapolis. that's 25 times faster than today's network in new york city. so people from midtown manhattan-- --to downtown denver--
primetime at the top of the hour. >> j.b., if i don't talk to you, happy thanksgiving. >> thank you. >> you're a beautiful guy, a tribute to the profession and a great guy. >> i'll take it. >> i usually fall short. what we're dealing with tonight is that the new information about rudy giuliani makes the situation seem like more of what it seems to be already, shady. we have a great legal panel of people who have looked at cases like this before. what would be crossing the line for rudy giuliani ethically, within political moves here, legally. we'll look at all the headlines from that perspective in a special thanksgiving wish at the end. >> thanks, chris, see you in a few minutes. more news ahead including new cnn polling on the democratic 2020 presidential race. who is in front and who my be closing in next. and we want to keep you connected to those you love, with the new iphone 11.
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ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock. prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. help stop the clock on further irreversible joint damage. talk to your rheumatologist. right here. right now. humira. there's new cnn polling out on the latest state of play when this comes to the contenders of
the 2020 democratic presidential nomination. here's cnn's john king. >> there's constant chatter here in washington and in new york in a joe biden is weak, that his candidacy somehow, someday will collapse. but if you look at our new poll, two words will flatter the former vice president, leader and resilient. let's take a look at the numbers. we asked democrats and likely democratic voters who is your top choice, a national poll, national poll but the former vice president at 28%, the healthy lead, senator sanders at 17, mayor buttigieg at 11 and the former vice president on top, as he said in the national poll. what would happen if the candidates at the bottom, what if they dropped out? would biden suffer then? our poll says the answer to that is no. the former vice president, if you just had these four in the race gets 35%, sanders 23,
warren 20. warren owned the summer. she was the darling of the democrats. as we get to the fall, nine and a half weeks to the first vote, the democratic voters seem to be looking more to the centers, to the moderates. if you add up top choice, biden and buttigieg, 39%. top choice of the progressives, 31%. not a huge gap but the moderate voice seems to be getting more attention, more love, if you will, from democratic voters. >> this latest poll is only a snapshot at a given time and doesn't reflect what's happening in either iowa or new hampshire. with me karen finney and bakari sellers, who is supporting kamala harris for president. i want to talk about the resilience of former vice
president joe biden. how do you see it? >> that's absolutely correct. there are a couple of things we need to take into account. number one, we've consistently seen and had this tug for voters between head and heart and their desire to beat trump and their belief that biden seems to be the person voters continue to believe can be him. the second thing in our poll that was very interesting when we asked voters about issues and who you think would do the best job on those issues, biden also led in many categories in health care i think he was sort of even with bernie. so that shows people both think he can beat trump but also trust him on the key issues that he really care about. >> bakari and another story in our poll and the quinnipiac poll that came out, elizabeth warren seems to have stalled or in some cases is slipping. do you have a why there? >> i think what we're seeing is the ebb and flow of this race. this race is wide open. i think one of the things that people know is first what we're seeing is a snapshot.
it is nine and a half weeks away from the first ballots cast. that's very important. we've seen john kerry and many others pull off victories, barack obama, when they were down and rose to win. but joe biden has been resilient. the biggest problem that people like elizabeth warren and pete buttigieg and bernie sanders have is they have to win iowa and new hampshire. ne have they have to win iowa and new hampshire. the field will be cut down after that but they have to win. there so i think that's her biggest problem. pete buttigieg poses a mortal threat to her in iowa and new hampshire and bernie sanders in new hampshire as well. >> and then, karen, we also saw john king talking about the rise of the moderates. you do the math and add up biden and buttigieg, they seem to be leading sanders and warren. there's other numbers inside the polls which indicate the same thing. do you see voters saying that maybe we don't want to go as
progressive as some of the other candidates are trying to go? >> i think voters don't know what they want. we hear from voters who say currently i'm supporting this person but i'm open to supporting someone else. and i think i agree with bakari in that we're going to continue to see that fluidity but i would argue that the entrance of bloomberg into the race and the layout of the calendar means the first four early states are not -- it's not going to be so deadly if you don't win because this contest could go much long longer. >> you're shaking your head, bakari. >> i don't find that to be true at all. i think that mayor bloomberg trying this rudy giuliani theory is not going to work and i think somebody who doesn't have african-american connections in the south will have a hard time running in the south. bloomberg will have many of the same problems. it reinforces the top-line
argument about joe biden. you have to secure a large portion of the african-american vote. joe biden has that. there are many people like myself and others who think that cory and kamala are in the best position if he falters but that's the case. >> it's basic math. the first four early states are only 10% of the delegates that you need. the big states like texas, florida are much later and so, again, if bloomberg can find a way and i'm just saying, look, bakari, between you and i who has done this more, right? it changed the calculation a bit in that you can make the argument that if i don't do as well, you can keep yourself alive beyond the first four. >> i hear you and i appreciate the argument and i hear you and i just remember being a young country legislator with a tall skinny guy with a funny name
named barack obama and pulled off a miracle had a 34-point swing to win iowa and propelled him on super tuesday. b b >> let's have a happy thanksgiving. thank you very much for being with us tonight. time to hand it over to chris for "cuomo prime time." >> i'm chris cuomo. welcome to "prime time." we have new information that raises real new questions. a form are ukrainian prosecutor who is central to the impeachment story says money may have been in the mix with rudy. was he trying to get favors from rudy in return for paying giuliani and agreeing to help to take down joe biden? now, is this a chance for this president to step away from another ally in a time of crisis? will it work any better than it did with cohen? we also have a lot of tnt ready to blow apart the president's four