tv State of the Union CNN February 20, 2011 12:00pm-1:00pm EST
liberal group matters she referred to this network as state run media, platform tin foil hats and by the biggest bunch of media block heads. she has been hired as a cnn contributor. well, in this blockhead's opinion, that should make for a fascinating exchange of views. that's it for this edition of "reliable sources." "state of the union with candy crowley" begins right now. a few weeks ago conventional wisdom was that threats of a federal government shutdown were a bluff. conventional wisdom might be wrong again. today, washington's war over spending with democratic senator chuck schumer, and uprisings across the middle east. we are joined by the top republican on the senate foreign relations committee, richard lugar, and a prescription for confronting radical islam from former defense secretary donald rumsfeld. >> they are not going to
disappear. they are a small group of people that are dedicated, determined and vicious. >> and on this presidents' day weekend, lessons from our founding fathers. >> the financing of our nation should be maintained as the finance of one's own home. >> i'm candy crowley, and this is "state of the union." if congress can't reach an agreement on this year's budget by march 4th, the government will be out of money and shut down. over time that could mean things like no social security checks, no passports, no national park tours. the republican-controlled house passed a budget to keep the government running through september, but with over $61 billion in spending cuts, the house bill is seen as too harsh and a non-starter in the democratic-controlled senate. basically, an unstoppable force has met an immoveable object. >> well, when we say we're going to cut spending, read my lips, we're going to cut spending. >> we're not risking a shutdown. they are. that's what they threatened today.
that's what they have been threatening for months. >> now what? joining me from our new york bureau, democratic senator chuck schumer. senator, thank you for joining us this morning. >> good morning, candy. >> you're $60 billion apart between what the house wants to do and what the senate wants to do. where's the middle? >> well, i hope we can negotiate somewhere in the middle. that's obviously what should be done, but, unfortunately, speaker boehner seems to be on a course that would inevitably lead to a shutdown. >> but wouldn't you bear some responsibility for that as well if it came to that? >> well, let me explain. speaker boehner is on a course, i think, that would lead to a shutdown. that's reckless. it would hurt the american people, jobs and the economy, and i hope he'd reconsider. now, back in december democrats and republicans always come to impasses about government spending, and in december, democrats and republicans agreed to -- we couldn't agree on a full year's budget, so we said
we'd agree to a $41 billion level of cuts that would expire march 4th. now, the house has come up with 100 billion below the president's level. we think it's reckless. it would prevent social security checks and veterans checks from going out. it would take people away from the border as we guard the border, health inspectors, and so what we're proposing is for a short time, a couple of weeks, we continue that $41 billion level while house and senate negotiators come up somewhere in the middle, but speaker boehner has said even before negotiations that he wants it a certain way. that is reckless. that's what newt gingrich did in 1995, and i understand that speaker boehner is being pushed by the hard right in both his body, the house, and outside. sarah palin said a shutdown would be a good idea in new york on thursday, but it's wrong.
it would hurt innocent people, hurt the economy, and we hope we can come to the table and negotiate without shutting the government down. >> well, senator, let me just get to that question that is wouldn't you all bear some responsibility for that as well if the government shuts down? it takes two parties to come to an agreement. >> right, but here's the bottom line. we have said shutdown is off the table. speaker boehner, mitch mcconnell, other republican leaders have not taken it off the table when asked, and there are lots of people on the hard right clamoring for a shutdown. don't shut the government down. come and negotiate, and you can't say it has to be this way before negotiations begin. we just got their budget saturday morning at 5:30 a.m. the right thing to do, the way it's always been done, the way to do this like adults is not to say it's my way or no way. that's what newt gingrich did with lots of severe consequences but rather sit down and
negotiate. no democrat has said let's use shutdown to get what we want. many republicans have so i think the public -- i think the public, candy, when they look at what happened, is going to put the blame on them, if it happens, and i hope and pray to god that it doesn't. >> to be fair, i think that the republicans would argue that you have been the ones talking more about shutdown than they have and look, speaker boehner said i need a temporary spending bill to have some cuts in it, and the truth is you've basically had this budget that you're now working on, that is now sort of brought it to this climax in early march since last year at this time, so what does make you all move, because you now have this deadline that you're going to meet early next week, but you all are out. why if it's so important, if it's so vital and if you don't want the government to shut down, why isn't the senate working? >> okay, first, we didn't get --
you know that the constitution says that all spending bills should originate in the house. >> sure. >> so we can't do anything until the house sends us a bill. they send it to us 5:30 a.m. saturday morning, a raucous week, an open week where things were debated on the floor, so we've begun immediately to do two things, first, to prepare a temporary stop-gap emergency proposal. >> will it have cuts in it? >> to keep -- yes, it has $41 billion in cuts, below the president's level. >> but that budget was never put into play, so it's 41 billion from his proposal that was never put in place. >> right. >> it's the same as 2010, same spending as 2010. >> they are proposing 100 billion below the president's level. that's the benchmark we have used, they have and we, have and obviously we are going to have to sit down and negotiate and we're prepared to negotiate right away. we're going through their document right now. it's a big document with a whole lot of pages, and while at the same time we prepare an
emergency stop-gap measure to keep the government going so there's not a shutdown, we're prepared to negotiate about what should happen for this fiscal year. they have said repeatedly that -- many republicans have said a shut down is a good thing, and unlike all of our leadership has said we'll avoid a shutdown at all costs and they are not saying that and so one thinks that they are use the shutdown to get what they want. it's
wrong. it's dangerous for the economy, dangerous for the american people and what newt gingrich tried, albeit over a smaller amount of cuts, 17 billion. >> would you agree for a why do you not want to include social security on that? the president's own debt commission has said you cannot do anything about the debt until you deal with medicare, medicaid, and social security.
>> look, first of all, let me say i think that the negotiations going on among the bipartisan group of six are a very good thing and i want them to continue. i hope that they would be successful and think most democrats
share that view. social security, however does not contribute one penny to the deficit and won't until 2037. >> people in your own party believe that it is urgent that you deal with social security to deal with the overall debt picture. >> well, we believe -- the vast majority of democrats, overwhelming, believe that since social security doesn't contribute to the deficit, since social security will not contribute until 2037, that by including it in these specific negotiations it makes it harder to deal with what is the immediate and dangerous problem the immediate deficit over this year and the next several years and, therefore, most of us think that social security should be kept for generations, and the way to do that is like what
happened in 1983. democrats and republicans get together and come up with how we can extend social security, but to mix it up as part of these negotiations i think will make these negotiations much tougher and harder, and because social security doesn't contribute to the debt, it makes sense to separate the two. >> senator chuck
schumer out of new york this morning for us. thanks so much. always too short. i hope you'll come back. >> thanks, candy. have a nice day. up next, perspective on the protests in the middle east and what they mean with the u.s. with the senate foreign relations committee top republican, richard lugar. and . i love that because of zyrtec®, we can all stay together as a family. [ male announcer ] we bet you'll love zyrtec®, too -- or it's free. he really has a very special relationship with his cat.
with me now here in washington, republican senator richard lugar of indiana. thank you for being here, sir. we appreciate it. the house has passed a bill which is about $61 billion in spending cuts to take the government through september. can you support what the house has done? >> no, i would not support the entirety of the house bill, but i think the basic problem presently is there's very little time. there is the imminence of a government shutdown. i just heard your interview with chuck schumer. i would simply add this thought and using your program as an appeal for the president of the united states to call immediately the leadership of both houses together and indicate the gravity of the problem of the government shutting down and at the same time to produce a formula which, as a matter of fact, the senate
might act in four days of time because the senate doesn't usually act in four days of time on complex issues as no possibility so already the blame game has started, chuck suggesting the newt gingrich situation. republicans suggesting that we don't have the money that we're talking about in this budget. we are spending money that we do not have. even the social security payments, we do not have. we're borrowing that from the treasury. >> right. 61 billion too much? >> not necessarily, but i think -- >> this configuration of 61 billion. >> once you take a look at all the elements there, various agencies are shut down. there could be some disputes there. speaker boehner has said essentially that he's not going to favor continuation without there being significant cuts. significant or whatever the adjective is very important, but this -- the president sort of backed away from all of this.
he offered his budget which is irrelevant to the whole business right now. this is a time for presidential leadership because it is crucial to our armed forces and the continuation of social security payments, all the things we've talked about that we do not have a government shutdown, but we must have reductions that are very, very substantial and the senate must have an opportunity to act upon them as well as the house. >> can you quickly for me to wrap this up define substantial from the view of richard lugar. >> i think something in the neighborhood of the 60 billion that the house has done. that seems to me to be a reasonable figure, to say the least. i don't think they have overstate it had. >> okay. thank you. i want to move you on to a couple of things. we are seeing renewed stories now that the obama administration is in fact talking with leaders in the taliban in afghanistan. does anything about that bother you? >> well, i'm certain such talks have gone on in the past, sometimes covertly, sometimes more obviously. it is a situation described frequently as a stalemate in
which somehow at the edges talks with the taliban, who are currently the enemy as opposed to the al qaeda people who have left to go to pakistan, yemen, somalia, wherever, i think that we're either going to have to have some type of negotiations with the president of the country, president karzai, the leadership or they call them warlords or the leaders in various provinces take place. otherwise, we're in a situation in which the taliban or al qaeda and/or various forces will simply outwait us. the afghan people in terms of their own security will never be confident, and we're at a juncture in which our government is going to have to define really what the end game is, what our purposes are. they have not done so. this is something we've called for in the foreign relations committee. i think we're going to have to get it. >> am spot point know like what is our goal here, like when can we get out? >> precisely, because what is
being suggested really is support of an afghan army for many, many years. you asked with what money? well, with our money, tax money. at the same time we're discussing this budget situation. >> right. >> we're really implying a huge amount of money year after year and so-called nation-building in afghanistan or maybe just holding the fort with regard to cities we think weave captured. >> let me ask you a couple of things about the goings on in egypt. first of all, we've had long ties with the egyptian military. they are now in control. do you trust, fully trust the egyptian military to transition to some sort of democratic elections? >> well, i don't think there's a question of trust. i think we take objectively the fact that they are in charge. we are hopeful from whatever advice they are going to take from us that they will in fact have a new constitution or elements of that, that they will begin to build political parties or allow those to be built, but that's going to require a great deal of expertise as to how a political party is formed.
it's important that we do, however. the muslim brotherhood is very well organized. people can see maybe 30% of the electorate in this situation, so as a result, the military has right now the ball in their court. i think we have to be understandable that our process here is going to be modest. in other words, the egyptians -- >> not much we can actually do. >> no, or need not take our advice at all. >> right. >> secretary clinton the other day suggested $150 million of money already projected toward egypt be allocated towards more specific economic aid. that may be helpful. egyptian diplomats have said the egyptian economy is in the tank, with the tourism thing demolished, with the corn, wheat prices and the so forth, and egypt is so dependant on creating real hazards of feeding, quite apart from politics, that our assistance here may be the most influential thing we can do. >> looking across what the
happening in the middle east now from bahrain, to libya, to yemen, where are you the most concerned? >> well, i think it's simply a question of how each of these countries works out the problem that they have aged leadership. by that i mean 60, 70, 80-year-olds, a majority of the population may be 25 and under. 25s didn't know what was going on in the rest of the world, that was one thing, they now know. they know they are not getting their fair share, that life is not going to be good for them. as a result, given hunger problems and other economic forces, they have come to the fore, so as a result the question is will as in the case of the libyans the protesters be shot? thus far the libyan police and army have stayed loyal to moammar gadhafi. maybe they will continue to and shoot the protesters. small country, not many protesters, but i would just say by and large most of the governments are coming to accommodation.
they are beginning to talk about more representation, democracy, hope for youth, all the rest of this. now whether they are successful, whether they make it to the finish line. in most cases the armies of each of these countries will be essential and they have very different relationships to the rulers. >> and finally and quickly, hamas official has said that egypt has agreed to open the rafa terminal which allows import and export into and out of gaza. is that a good or bad thing for israel? >> beginning of a very edgy relationship between the new egypt, whoever is in control and israel. the fact the two iranian ships either have gone through, as the iranians have claimed or haven't yet made it and will be given the opportunity, i think that this is a very great dilemma that the israelis see, that we see. this is on very great dilemma. once again we'll have to be
helpful diplomatically, but it's something that will have to be worked out on the ground between the two parties. >> richard lugar, it is always a pleasure. >> thank you, candy. >> thank you for joining us. up next, a conversation i had earlier with donald rumsfeld. the former defense secretary opens up about iraq, afghanistan and his views on the obama administration. nationwide insurance. talk to me.
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moment when we -- when you were in the oval office and you sat in this office and thought oh, what have we done? was this the right thing, and he said sure, yeah, i did. >> sure. >> what kept you up at night? >> i think the concern i had that the information we had was imperfect, and -- >> it was more than imperfect. some of it was just flat wrong. >> that's true, and i -- i don't want to be excessively critical of the intelligence community because it's a hard job. we're dealing with closed societies. we're dealing with a complicated world. it's very difficult to determine intent on the part of others and we have a lot of wonderful, dedicated people in the intelligence community, but i've been around long enough and seen enough instances where the intelligence was wrong and where the information that later was learned didn't conform to what was expected. >> that certainly was the case here this time. >> no question, no question. >> there are stories out this week as a man known as curveball
in intelligence circles. >> yes. >> and i kind of want to set this scene by the audience by playing something that colin powell, then the secretary of state, he was addressing members of the u.n. he was justifying upcoming invasion into iraq. this is part of what he had to say. >> we have firsthand descriptions of biological weapons factories on wheels and on rails. the source was an eyewitness, an iraqi chemical engineer who supervised one of these facilities. he actually was present during biological agent production runs. >> okay. now i want to show you a picture to our audience of an iraqi defector, this is curveball. curveball talked to "the guardian" tuesday and said it was all a lie, a total lie. here's what they said. they, meaning the u.s., gave me a chance. i had the chance to fabricate something to topple the regime. i and my sons are proud of that and are proud that we were the
reason to give iraq the margin of democracy. this was a major part of the argument for iraq, and this guy totally lied. do you not want to reach through that screen and strangle that guy? >> you know, the intelligence community created the national intelligence estimate. colin powell is an honorable man. he understood intelligence products. he worked hard to prepare those remarks to the united nations. he believed every word he said and what he was basing -- >> of course he did. he said, look, go ask the defense intelligence agency. you're as close as i can get. how did this guy's information become gospel when in fact he was completely lying, and by the way, the german sources who turned this over said we don't think the guy is reliable, but somehow that part of the information didn't make it up the chain. how does that happen? >> well, the intelligence community talks to hundreds of people.
they have human assets such as this man. some are honest. some are dishonest. some do it for money and some do it for self-aggrandizement and some just lie. >> did you ever when you found out there -- i asked -- i remember asking former president bush when you found out about it, when you found out there were no weapons of mass destruction, he said he was sick to his stomach. did anyone say give me the person who gave the intelligence because signature here listening to you the fault of the war was the intelligence community. >> well -- >> the false premise of the war. >> well, first of all, there were a variety of reasons for the war, not simply wmd. >> that was the one you all pushed the hardest? >> that's true, but if you look at the resolution from the congress, there were multiple reasons, and if you looked at the u.n. resolution, there were multiple reasons but it wasn't a sole reason. >> but it was a big one. >> no question it was the big one. >> i think probably people would argue to you that we wouldn't
have gone in had they said they didn't have weapons of mass destruction. >> i think that's probably right. a great many people would not. >> did you ever think we shouldn't have gone? when you found out there were no weapons of mass destruction, your headline reason, was there just one moment in there when you thought oh, we shouldn't have gone? >> it was never my headline reason or never the only reason, i should say. they were shooting at our aircraft, and i was deeply concerned, as were the joint chiefs of staff and the chairmen, that one of our planes was going to be shot down and a crew was going to be taken hostage or killed, and it was almost a daily occurrence, and -- and -- >> there might be less intrusive ways to take care of that. >> true, but knowledge -- you suggest kind of in your question that there was a single moment. there wasn't. we didn't know for weeks and weeks whether we'd found -- would still find, i should say, something that would approximate what was believed in the intelligence report. >> but across that expansion of time up till right now from the start to the finish, was there a
moment when you doubted whether we should have gone? i realize that you came to the conclusion that it was -- you got a good outcome, you know, that you're arguing, but was there ever a moment in that span of time when you thought we shouldn't have gone? >> oh, my goodness, we were so busy fighting the war and trying to save lives and to make the right decisions as the enemy shifted their tactics and procedures, i think there clearly were moments when we talked about it. there were moments when we discussed it. there were moments when we said even more importantly because what's done is done. more importantly was what in the world caused that? how can we avoid that in the future? are there other things that we're relying on that may not be true, and that kind of was the focus of the intelligence community and the discussions. what else are we depending on that conceivably we could find out to our surprise might not be the case, and -- and that focus was terribly important. >> mr. secretary, stick with me. >> yes.
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[ female announcer ] so book today. freestyle cruising. only on norwegian cruise line. we are back with our guest, former defense secretary ronald rumsfeld, author of "known and unknown, a memoir" covering a lot of time. let me take you to one of the things that i've seen you say a lot and that you allude to in here, and that is that you do think initially the right number of forces were sent into afghanistan, that you were fully manned, if you will there. if that is the case, why did the taliban come back in such force in 2006 and 2007? >> because they are determined. they are dedicated. they are vicious. they are anxious to re-establish themselves and have a country. it was such a terrible regime that only three nations in the world had diplomatic relations with the taliban. >> couldn't more troops have taken care of more taliban so there would be fewer of them to come back?
>> oh, no. they simply move into another country, go into neighboring countries, go into pakistan. no, or disappear or just become quiet and not be active, and the minute they have an opportunity, they come back, so what's going to have to happen, and general petraeus is a fine general, and i'm sure he's doing a good job there, but what's going to have to happen eventually is the afghan people, the afghan government, the afghan security forces are going to have to figure out an arrangement with their people so that it is not hospitable to the taliban, and they are in the process of doing some of that right now and over time, they are not going to disappear. they are a small group of people that are dedicated and determined and vicious. i mean, these people were using -- >> do you think ten years from now we'll still be there? >> no, and i said that. i said, look, you can't make a career out of this. the afghans are going -- >> looks like we are kind of making a career out of it. >> well, if you think of it like
world war i or ii where it starts and it ends, then you're right. if you think of it like the cold war where it lasted 30, 40 years and -- >> people weren't dying daily in the cold war. >> no, but there were things going on in the world. i mean, the soviet union was expansive in africa and latin america and various parts of other portions of the globe. this is not a conventional war with armies, navies and air forces. we have some troops, but basically it's going to be won not by bullets but by ideas and by competition of ideas and by the countries involved. they are going to have to -- >> we're still kind of in the bullet phase. >> of course we are. >> ten years later. >> we haven't lost a battle, can't lose a battle in terms of a military battle. that means there's something else going on, and what's going on is we're going to have to persuade the world that these people are harmful, they are dangerous. they are against the nation-state concept and then
the afghan people will have to have sufficient forces to manage their country. >> let me ask you in sort of a broader sense about the obama administration. you once said if you're not being criticized, you may not be doing much, so i want to give you this opportunity. what is it that you think they are not doing right? >> i'm not there. i've been out for four years. only look at it from afar, and i think private diplomacy is probably vastly more important than their public pronouncements and i'm not knowledgeable about their private diplomacy. i do think they were wrong in attacking the bush administration structures that have kept this country safe for almost a decade now. they now have switched from the campaign mode, and they are keeping guantanamo bay. they are keeping indefinite detention. they are keeping military commissions, so obviously they have come to the conclusion that their campaign promises, easier to campaign than it is to
govern, and i think they have made the right decisions in keeping some of those structures because no one wants to be -- have a jail. no one wants to have to do these things, but we've got to defend the american people. we've got to be willing to do it, and i think they have made a series of right decisions in not trying to tear down that structure. >> the president's supporters say that in two years he has been able to return this country to a status of being liked across the world in a way that america was not liked during the bush administration, that he has once again made america a beacon. do you agree with that? do you think that the u.s. is now looked at much differently than it was and much more positively than it was during your tenure? >> no, and i don't think there's data that supports that. i think he has made a practice of trying to apologize for america. i personally am proud of america. >> well, he seems to be quite popular overseas in a way that
president bush was not. the streets aren't full of people burning him in effigy. there does seem to be a new -- a chance to look at america in a different way than it did during the bush administration. you don't think that's true. >> i don't think that's true, and i don't think that there's data that would support that. >> even the streets look differently? >> i guess -- i don't think it's correct. i could be wrong, but i honestly don't think it's correct. i think that the people -- >> some people think it's part of the reason why he got the nobel prize was that he -- people just looked at him so much differently. >> he had not accomplished a thing when he got the nobel prize. it was given to him on hope, had to have been, because there wasn't anything that he had done. he had been in office 15 minutes. >> a little more than 15 minutes. i just want to say that. let me ask you to stay with me. we will be right back with former defense secretary donald rumsfeld. i'm katie and this is george. i'm allergic to cats.
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we are back once more with donald rumsfeld, former defense secretary and, of course, author of a new book, "known and unknown." you brought up guantanamo bay prison which i know you have always felt should not be closed, that it was as good a place as any to keep some of these people. we're now seeing secretary gates sort of saying this is back-burnered, doesn't seem like we're going to close it any time soon. are you comfortable with the notion that people that were picked up on the battlefield in iraq or afghanistan in 2001, 2002 could live their lives in guantanamo bay prison without ever seeing the inside of a courtroom, be it military or civilian? is that okay with you? >> oh, goodness, none of it is okay with me, you know.
no one wants to be the jailer for the world. i don't know that they necessarily would have to stay there the rest of their lives. some could be sent back to their home countries to be handled there. in other cases they could have a military commission try them and come to a judgment. they might come to a judgment like happens in our civilian courts that it was a mistake and they shouldn't have been in there. it breaks your heart if that's the case, but it happens. >> let me ask you. if you were still defense sent and if bin laden were caught, what would you do with him? >> oh, my goodness, i think he'd end up in guantanamo bay and probably be subjected to a military commission. >> and then? >> and who knows what the military commission would decide. he -- he has brought enormous harm to the world. >> just out of curiosity, if we did catch him, guantanamo bay prison, would you like to go down there and see him? >> no. >> really? >> no. he's not my type.
>> let me ask you a domestic political question. you went to cpac and received an award there presented by your old friend, former vice president dick cheney. you were booed at cpac which is conservatives. >> there were some ron paul people. >> conservatives. >> sure. there were a handful from the back. no big problem. >> no, i understand, this isn't sort of monitor the boos. >> yeah. >> it actually gets me to the question of what do you make of the current iteration of the republican party? you've -- you date back to the ford years and prior to that. >> eisenhower. >> and have watched the republican party -- eisenhower-so you've watched it go through a number of iterations so what do you think of this one with the tea party influence and conservatives? >> fascinating. >> oh, come on. >> i find it very interesting. i think the tea party people have brought a lot of energy into public life and public affairs, and it's a good thing that people are energized and active. i have seen the republican party declared dead and over probably four or five times, and it
hasn't been, and what's going on now is some energy into it, and that's a good thing, and i like to see people involved in public affairs and bring in fresh ideas and what have you. i am deeply worried about the budget. i think that the deficit is a danger to our country. i think it's going to damage our future, and i think it's putting our next generation at great risk, and we have to really be honest enough with ourselves and address it, and i think the tea party people are energized by that concern, and i think that's probably a healthy thing. it will put a balance. >> i think one of your old buddies alan simpson, co-chair of the debt commission. >> yes. >> thinks you can get $100 billion out of the defense budget between now and 2015. can you? >> oh, no, 2015 is a long way off. so many of these people are saying, well, we can save money tomorrow. i would like to see people start
saving money now. are there things in the defense budget, my goodness, every year the congress was stuffing $10 billion down the pentagon's throat that we didn't want. there's no question but that there's money there. >> want to mention again "known and unknown" now about to be a number one best several in hard back on the "new york times" best-seller list, all the proceeds going to their soldiers and families. >> yes. >> thank you very much. a pleasure. still ahead on this presidents' day weekend, my exclusive interview with two former commanders in chief. >> the alternating domination of one political party or another spurred on by the spirit of revenge will always drive a nation further and further from its better interests and greater counsels.
s time for today's sound of sunday. under the weight of the march 4 deadline, government shutdown loomed large. it rations of the new buzz wards, adult conversation. >> going to be optimistic everyone behaves like adults and get this worked out. >> it is ridiculous to say that the children in washington can't come together and cut spending. >> what i hope to happen is that we will find a way to resolve this by reducing spending in a bipartisan fashion. >> it was as close as anybody got to bipartisan agreement. the rest of sunday morning tv was ripe with what senator lugar called on this program -- the blame game. >> i'm a little worried the republicans in the house are eager to threaten the shutting down of the government. >> we don't want to agree to this now, give as you month and
we will get it done in the next month. you will get waited out and still spend $61 billion this year between don't need to spend. the only way we will shut down the government down is if it is democratic colleagues sincing on keeping the federal government large and unsustainable. >> there are reasons for some optimism. a feeling between the lines what you just heard were first positions, not final ones. >> if i have anything to fault with the house approach to it i think they went too far in their cuts. >> i don't think the senate will pass the cuts. we will have to negotiate. we are not looking for a government shutdown. at the same time we are not looking at rubber stamping the high elevated spending levels that congress blew through the joint two years ago. >> in wisconsin's budget showdown, playing out on the streets of madison the state's republican governor accused by president obama of developing a plan that amounts to an assault on you don't knowions had a message of the white house -- stay out of it. >> the president ultimately should saw focused on fikszing the federal budget because they
have a huge deficit and believe me, they have their hands full. they are far from getting it accomplished. >> that's your sound of sunday. up next, george washington and thomas jefferson grant me exclusive interviews on this president's day weekend. idea. it's where ethel percy andrus found a retired teacher living because she could afford nothing else. ethel couldn't ignore the clear need for health and financial security. and it inspired her to found aarp. for over 50 years, we've continued that work, to help all americans pursue their best life. discover more of what we do, for every generation at aarp.org.
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on president's day weekend what journal ips wouldn't want to drop into a time capsule for exclusive was george washington and thomas jefferson? ol ownial williamsburg, virginia, is as close as it gets. that's where we found bill barker and ron carnegie that spent a combined 30 years in the shoes of two of our founding
fathers. presidential historian was great costumes. we drop back now to 1797. president washington made the decision to voluntarily step down from office. mr. president, it is good of to you join us my pleasure let's start with the political sxwes first, you have decided two terms is enough. why? >> after my first term, many men convinced me that it was necessary that i remain in office for the betterment of this country. but now the nation has matured to a point where i cannot be convinced of that. i hope i will be allowed to return home. >> i think one of the other political questions that comes offer as you prepare to leave office, that's the formation of political parties. you have been critical. you looked at the ideas that there may be two political parties that would drive politics. why is that? >> i hope we never would have seen this introduction of parties into our shores. the alternating domination of one political party over another spurred on by the spirit of
revenge will always drive a nation further and further from its better interests and greater counsels. it cause as man to be concerned not for being a certain have an to his nation but rather to be a certainn't have a of his political party. >> you have been known as a man of great morality. have you ever told a lie? just even a little white one? >> a man should always be guided by honesty and virtue. but i also was the commander in chief of our armies. i had under my authority a number of spies and engaged in spying upon the ensxhi endeavoring to misinform our enemy. by way of false numbers and newspapers and such as that. obviously i have on occasion be less than truthful. >> and tell me since there have been so many things written about you already and will clearly will be things written about you in the future, what's the biggest misconception that you have read about yourself or heard about yourself? >> a political party has made
claims that i have wished for the office of president and that i perhaps wish to be a king. which has never been the case. nobody could wish such an office less than i do. north america is done with kings. some of those who accuse me in the press know very well that this is the truth. yet, they feel free to say whatever they wish. >> yet, you believe wholeheartedly in a free press? >> i do. >> mr. president, we appreciate your taking the time. in salute to our third president we move into the early 1800s with thomas jefferson. inventor and author of the declaration of independence, a president who inherited an $83 million national debt. mr. president, have you in your term reduced the national debt by a third. what's the harm of a national debt? >> it leads us into the necessity of becoming dependent
upon the government itself. that's my opinion that if we allow stock jobbers, monokratz, speculators, to have their way, that they will pursue this debt in order to grant diz their wealth and influence. and, of course, that feeds upon the common man. they financing of our nation should be maintained as the finance of one's own home. three particular principles. take care of your penies and your dollars will take care of themselves. never spend money you do not have. do not purchase something simply because it is cheap. >> do you worry that there are things within the constitution that will not stand the test of time? that 200 years from now or more there will be things about the constitution the american people will want to correct? >> i am hopeful in the future we may rectify the idea of an electrical college, right of the legislatures to decide who
should be the street magistrate. in my opinion, it does not properly denounce the voice of the people and may some day become a blot on our constitution. >> so you fear that with this electoral system there might be a time when a candidate would be popular among the people and still not become president? >> yes. i do. that is -- in the human nature of politics to occur. i do believe. >> and that would be a constitutional crisis, would it not? >> yes, it would. good heavens, could you imagine would that have occurred it may even come to the point of coming up before our supreme court. >> the many things you have done, what you want to have remembered centuries from now? >> i would like to be remembered as the author of our deck alreadiation of american independence. of the statute of virginia fall religi