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pretty soon it began -- the fort was called for coeur d'alene. the town took on the name coeur d'alene city as it began to expand, and then once the began to be more people move in the area, as result of while the fort was under construction, gold was discovered up in the mountains. the coeur d'alene mountains. and silver. and thousands of people came here. so if setting up of hotels and various boarding houses and pretty soon there's a hardware store and a general store and you have a 10. coeur d'alene was a transfer point to the gold and silver mines eventually by rail and by steamboat and then by rep again into the mining industry. and so we have all these people coming in to get in the mining district, they need this. and so that's the origin of the economy. what really changed, major
change was when the fort was finally closed in 1898, and when they discovered a different route into the mining district, which people didn't have to go up and down the lake on steamboats. they were all rail lines around the lake. this little town was about to go under, but nobody knew this, while all of this is going on the our federal surveys going on in the entire pacific northwest determining what is the marketable timber? it's basically the white pines, millions of acres of white wines. so that report was made from this survey in 1898, the use thf fort was close. that report was made public and, of course, you can guess what happened in. all the major timber companies
including the biggest one, warehouser, moves in and they came to this area. so that's really -- when you walk through the town today that's the town the primary produced -- the town's population was about 500 in 1900. by 1910 it was almost 8000. coeur d'alene today is a very modern productive city. we depend pretty much, not entirely but tourism is big part of our economy in this area. the timber industry is still viable. mining, it's had some problems, but our main focus was on diversity. we want to have the first interest because in the past area pretty much it was on mining and logging. so we are very diverse in almost every way you can think of. to me as a historian, i don't think you can to understand the
threat unless you something about the pastor to know you more the better ghost in the prison. if you understand the present and al qaeda, you're capable of making some choices about what's going to happen in the future. spent next from booktv's recent visit to coeur d'alene, we bring you the history behind the for dummies series was first offered dan gookin. he describes the challenges he faced getting the first book published and the subsequent success of the series. >> at the time they were novelty computer books. that was how to train your computer mouse. there was a bunch of stupid dos tricks. we figured this would be another novelty book and the people will like it. well, it's old and it sold really, really well. i had an idea to get a beginning book about computers, about dos specifically. i inspired myself to do that just even with people in a magazine editing job i had,
being on the radio at that time and eating out in the public and talking to people about computers but it was obvious people wanted to learn more but the material we had a table at the time just wasn't doing the job. we have begin to books on how to use computers, but they sucked. they just didn't have -- they were condescending, patronizing. the author was eric and. he was like well, you will never get this stuff anyway. more like, look at this, this is cool. people didn't want to know that. they wanted to use the computer. moving out of an era when computers were a hobbyist thing, just basic like ham radio operators to where they're going into the office. so the people who are transitioning from typewriters and going into computers and doing things on atlanta to doing them on a computer. so you had mortal users who needed to know how to use the computer. the books were missing the mark. i had an idea based on the
idiots guide the volkswagens maintenance, to get an idiots guide for computer. that was my proposal. this is about 1989 or so. wanted to get that out there and i had a literary agent, believed or not, computer book authors of literary agents, and i wrote a proposal and i give tim and i said shop is around to he shopped it around to all the major publishing houses of the time. not of them were interested. it was a catch-22. they set themselves up for it. they wrote lousy books so lousy books didn't sell. when i want to write a beginners book, the argument was, our beginner books don't sell. that audience just isn't there. and i was like, but you're not trying to get the audience because your books are unsuccessful. and wouldn't listen. it was like the bland food restaurant. people don't want salt. in their food. you haven't tried it yet. we don't want to try because they're just not going to like
it. we are robert ready getting people in. it's tough getting people convince. i put on the shelf, i was at a conference and i was addressing the idea of having books be more personality driven. they're dry, boring, not an interesting read to any audience was a man, he was a dashing his with us toward a publisher in the sitcom let's have lunch. so we had lunch and after lunch he said, i have an idea for a book and a bookmark not a secret he said it's called dos for dummies. i said i the outline for the book. my book is called dvd guide for dos. it's the same thing. so he said, shoot me a copy of your outline. outline. so i fed extension because we didn't have e-mail back them. he said this is awesome, this is exactly what i'm looking for. except i wrote a tutorial, a how to get any said don't want to learn this stuff.
so let's make it a reference so they can just look at the one thing they want to find him to do and get on with the rest of their lives. they don't want to become experts. i said that the, i know what you're talking about. three weeks later i had written the book. idg was going to publish one book and then there was some reluctance he with the title when the owner found out that they had this book gaza for dummies in the press. you can't affect in the region. cancel the book. unfortunately, or fortune 5000 copies came off the press. original is going to be 7500, but they stopped it at 5000 they figured okay, we will show this out in the marketplace and in it will go away. at the time not all the bookstores even wanted to have it. waldenbooks said we don't want it to we don't want to insult our reader. we don't want that. even with just 5000 copies, before the internet, before,
when we had bookstores, real bookstores people when into. they came in and it was gone. in a week it was sold out because people wanted to. it was like they saw it and they said that's for me. i'm done and about that book. so to the publishers credit they printed up another 5000 copies and another 5000 copies and another 5000 copies, because the bookstores want the book. eventually waldenbooks was tired of sitting people across the mall to be dollars and they said we will take that book. and so it just built on mouth. after dos for dummies became successful a recognize the had success so they were eager to get more out because they realize we have a formula. we have an audience that is eager for a lot of information. they sat down with me and they basically offered me every title that i wanted. whatever i wanted to do. i think i signed six contracts in an afternoon. they went out to other people and found other riders to write
things on photoshop and home finance and all these other computer does. they were doing all these titles at once. everything sol so because people were eager to have information presented in a format that was easy to read, that had a little bit of humor, that was personnel and all that stuff. people ready for it. they were hungry for and the books sold like hell. >> so this is a chronological order. those are the only books i wrote which were kind of technical. some of them didn't sell very well. then all of a sudden you have dos for dummies. you can see if you look chronologically, and i wrote other books, and then all of a sudden you see another dummies book and another dummies book. as time progresses i wrote more and more and more and that kind of parallels the trend of issues. i've started going and start wrapping up at all of the sudden, so i won on end o of the
spectrum you see lots of get the colors and that the other end is all he'll. a lot of that is simply because the economy and going away from physical bookstores, the for dummies brand survive and a lot of the other stuff didn't. it has niche markets by there's only three or four publishers today the publish computer books versus this time way back in the 1980s when you've probably had 60. this is my collection of knockoffs. this is the knockoff collection. what happened after dos for dummies came out you had all kinds of titles trying to capitalize it. there were a couple of other was but one of the reasons i got these is because in the books i see a lot of my own writing, which you can call that plagiarism but when was last time you heard of plagiarism case in court? it happens all the time. i would go through these books and flag where i saw things i
written a bearing in someone else's book. sometimes it was with bed. one of the worst examples which was not a for dummies outcome did i write this? our talk to a publisher and i think, should i get paid for this book? that doesn't happen as much anymore but back then they were so eager to capitalize on the success of the for dummies series that they came up with a lot of -- they try to get how does it work. i remember an editor telling me she counted the number of paragraphs because she thought that was important. but that wasn't it. i had no form of when i wrote the thing. whatever crazy thought popped into my head. for dummies series today is better than it has been. for a while there was this mad rush to do as many as possible. it was that corporate mentality of let's keep printing money as opposed to what's our mission statement. i more of a mission oriented guy. like what is the nation? is the mission to provide
information to people or is the mission to go ahead and make as much money as possible? i think about is to go ahead and provide information. back then, say 10, 15 years ago their mission was less saturate the market. let's do as many as we can and get anyone to write the books. so we can get as many of the. i think that hurt them in the long run. like it or everyone. there's a quality equation. as an author i know i tried to do this and anti--- we tried to explain it, keep the quality. don't go for this saturation. keep the good authors. do good books. i think that was kind of lost because it was a.com been going on at the time and everyone was like -- the company made a terrible mistake and decided to become a publicly traded company. that really screwed it up. totally, the corporate mentality is one of let's make the quarterly numbers and i think
that hurt them a lot. in fact, it told the company. and a more traditional publisher went ahead and bought it. this was about 15 years ago. when they took it over i think they want to get understood about upbringing quality back into it and have taken some time. but these days i am very pleasantly surprised at the quality of these books. i think the series has been successful because the publisher really understood and appreciate what was special about the books. it's not just about humor. it's not just about here's a bunch of books with a bunch of jokes in them. it's like it has to be good information. if you look at technical books these days, they are all that way. it's not the old we were everything was dry and boring. here's the facts. not it's pretty interesting. even the propeller headed books i read that are like really nerdy technical books on things
that may be too and people are going to understand. there's still that same person out in the. not only is this the for dummies series but is the entire industry has appreciated the value of that personality to bring to bestow, boring topics. >> booktv recently visited coeur d'alene idaho with the help of our local partner time warner cable. the city also known as lake city is the health care education, manufacturing and recreational center for northern idaho. during our visit we sat down with mike bowler, local authors book "lioness of idaho," tells the story of louise shadduck him and local political activist who worked on a couple of different presidential campaigns. and is the first single director of commerce and development. she turned idaho into a tourist destination and improve the economy. >> in a world where so much means politics and power and
advertisement, she worked behind the scenes by never forgetting human beings. they say she never forgot the name, and she is incredible. the minutes of the united states senate say that she was noted for possibly knowing everybody in idaho. i think is not just special immigrant named. she remembered people. that's how she got her political power. she said why is things like, don't worry what people are thinking about you because they don't do it that often. or she would say, we would all have a better perspective on life if we knew that the number of people at our funeral would only depend on the weather. or, every politician should know that one day he or she will be replaced. her parents had originally had a homestead on lake coeur d'alene. her father go to help up there and ran a steamboat, mail route
on lake coeur d'alene. they built their form, their dairy farm just about five miles north of here, and that's where she was born with four older brothers and two younger brothers. she was asked to the reporter for coeur d'alene press, straight out of high school, and she took some of the births and deaths at first. and then she went on and did almost everything for the press. she went from there to become an administrative assistant for the governor. she had been covering political things for the press, and covered the second world war and some really interesting things. and the governor -- governor robbins saw her strengths and begged her and pleaded innocent people of your, took a long time to convince her, and she became
the first woman administrative assistant for governor, served in the state come and quite possibly in the nation. this was in the 1940s still. she worked for governor robbins and then she worked for governor jordan. and then she made a run for congress. she didn't win in north idaho because i don't think any democrat -- any republican could have one in north idaho than. it was all strong democrats. she later called that a temporary fit of insanity. she was just about 40. after she lost, the governor asked her to be the commerce -- secretary of commerce and development for idaho. understand from this is a woman with a high school education. never had a course in business, never had a course in economics. she did everything by the simplest strategy. she started off asking fifth graders from idaho to write to
this grid and other states. a little genius in that because she understood long before mcdonald's did that people with kids were the most likely travelers. she then went on to other strategy to she did not have the money to invite the ceos of big corporations to come here to work, and so she promoted hunting and fishing in the mountains, and horseback country trips as a way to get the ceos of those big corporations to cover themselves on their own money and then to like it into state to at the time, idaho was the only state in the west that was losing ground and for personal income. by the time she's finished, idaho was at that time growing at a rate that for a short time surpassed even hawaii as the fastest growing state in the nation.
we reached almost a meeting income for the nation at that time, and newspapers all over the state were running her picture and showing, showing the marvelous louise, that she was so well loved. this is at the end of the '60s. she went on from there to work for congressman hansen for several years, and then she came back and retired, sort of retard, to live on lake coeur d'alene and became even more powerful than because of her contacts with so many people in high places, and the careers of she started. someone said the way to be successful is to make other people successful. and that's what she did to she helped people out. she used her influence to get people jobs and get them connected and get the ideas and directions that tend to go with their careers. two different later i don't governors told me how she encouraged and helped and
nurtured them early in their careers. that led to them becoming governor. people knew if they were in politics and they want to be friends with luis. she also became very interested in civil rights. we have a problem at that time was a white supremacist group in town, and she held a group of people lobby to get a unanimous vote in the legislature for a law allowing civil damages for civil harassment. that brought an end to that white supremacist compound that gave coeur d'alene a pretty bad name sometimes. she didn't want anyone to be known for that. at one point people and urged her to for governor, and share the name recognition. she had the people behind or. she had a lot of the things that any of the politicians would want, and she knew it. but she didn't. she chose not to. for several reasons, and i talk about them in the book but i
think the biggest, she was not one to say her own name over and over. she preferred to work behind the scenes. and became one of those people that worked in the senator's office, and the congressman's office, the governor's office, to get things done outside the political fight. i came here 20 years ago to be the pastor of her church. i count in the book some interesting little stories. one of the most un-ones was when she invited her passed out to get acquainted. she took me down the street for a burger and a beer. not many old ladies take the passed out for a burger and a beer. she asked me what i wanted to know and who i wanted to know. i didn't know then who i was talking to, because she never talked about herself. the stories i found, i found a store of a plane crash.
she was at an important meeting in sun valley and she was in charge of a lot of national people that were there in sun valley. she took some women for a little drive up in the mountains, and they saw -- as they were driving, she saw a plane come down and disappeared into the forest. she slammed on the brakes to she was in tennis shoes and it was knee-deep snow. she slammed on the brakes and dove into the woods and found away to the woods to the plane. and when the young people that were with her cot up, she was inside the plane consoling the one survivor. hours later she's back at that important meeting and a newspaper has a picture of her giving her an award all dressed up. the family didn't know anything about that. she didn't talk about herself. a politician who didn't talk about herself. rather com comment was more interested in you and your family. what a model for young people.
i'm so excited about this store because she is our role model for women and four men, of how we can be successful in life. i helping others. i'm a fish at her funeral in may 2008. she had insisted no politicians were this the end it was to be a limited amount of time, and she made all the plans and all the arrangements. she didn't want anybody to build a better career on her funeral. she was a realistic person. that was not a bitter thing. it was just a realistic thing. she knew how things work and she wanted -- just with her pastor, because she was not -- and the weather was good so a lot of people showed up. the biggest legacy of all is all the careers she started to all of the people of the state who
got their start from louise shadduck, and the way she did it by being nice to people. it's a model that politics is about us, the people. and we can be nice to each other, that we can be civil, that we can be stronger she was not really a moderate. she was positioned towards the middle, but she was a fierce moderate if one could think of that. she withdrew strong that it is right to listen to both sides but it is right to be civil. it is right to care about what other people have to say. that's a model that we desperately need to be. that's another reason why i was thrilled to write this book. spent while visiting coeur d'alene, idaho, booktv took a trip over to the kellogg.
we sat down with julie whitesel weston who recalls the history of the town. >> i recall i remember playing in the park. i remembered skiing in the mountains. i remember going to school, which i loved, and i remember all the people who were around. the miners went by our house in the morning. they came by our house in the afternoon. we could hear the mine whistles blow. we could see the lights of the boathouse where the order came in. but we weren't very much involved with mind. we saw all these people but we didn't have any of us realize what was going on underneath us. so it was just like a normal childhood. a history of kellogg begin with the jackass. noah kellogg was a minor, prospector who came here from mines father of the valley. and with his jackass whose exploits around the hills right
back up this way. supposedlsupposedl y the jackass kicked over a big piece of clean or, and -- ore. we often find gold close to the top which is what of the first rushes to the study. when they found the silver, that's when kellogg started. this was about the 1880s. a mining town looks very different from a town in the midwest. in this town we had a smelter excellence constantly pumping out smelter smoke and we had tall smokestacks that would pump it out day and night. towards the end of the time the mine was still going, they did a smokestacks of 750 feet high. a smelter is where you take the ore and smelled them down. that is, put them in big vats of boiling chemicals and then you
would get silver, lead and zinc the lead was the predominant metal, that would lead you often had silver and zinc. all those were products from the mine. here in this valley the boom lasted 100 years. it went from the 1880s to the 1980s when the minds were closed down. the mine was almost the sole employer except for retail stores. everybody depended on the minds. because everybody depended on the "mein kampf" of mike affected everybody's lives. -- depended on the mine, the mine affected everybody's lives. they paid for the uniforms and a marching band and employed students in the summer and then provided scholarships, thousand of scholarships for the kids who came out of there. effect on the town of the mine closing was deficit in the account had been through lots of hard times bigger than labor
strikes and i write about what big strikes in my book. it had been through the depression the aldermen voted to work three days a week so everybody could work. but when the mine closed-end, nobody could believe it. they tried to get people to get in to be a white knight to save the town and have someone else bought it. a company that bought it from the original owners and they were mining deep and mining fast and getting the best stuff out there and then environmental protection agency came in and said you can't keep doing what you're doing. and between the way the gulf resources managed the mine and the epa, they closed down and this became a superfund site. epa is the one who tries to keep the air clean and the water claim. this town did not have clean air or clean water.
so there were lots of poisons that were spread out on the ground. while this one company was managing the mine, there was a back house fire. the back house was the place for many of the boys were taken out of the processing before it went up in the air. they kept running the mine and the smelter even though the bag house had burned. that was i think a proxy 1972, maybe 1974. the town didn't know that until there was lots of lead and arsenic and other toxic chemicals that were spread out. so when the epa came in and said this has to be cleaned up, the river has to be cleaned up, they did call it led creek, they just close everything down. the company was managing it had already said they couldn't run anymore because it was too expensive to comply with regulations.
it became a 21 square-mile superfund site. everything was closed-end to their offenses aren't everything say no trespassing. if you come into this property you will be poisoned. the leaks in the areas had signs that said don't swim or eat the fish. it really did in the town as a mining town. they were government monies spent, about $220 million, by the time i wrote my book which was in the 1990s. when i was first doing interviews. now i guess it's up to about 440 million cleaning up the area. they dug at every yard, put in clean dirt. they worked on the river. moved the river, dredged it, move it back. they took out the field, the football stadium and put clean dirt and. and so basically the town is pretty clean out. many people in the town felt that was not appropriate, that
we had all lived here, there was nothing wrong with any of us, with a few exceptions. and it just wasn't the end of an era. a lot of people stayed and waited, waited and waited for the mines to reopen but they didn't. some of them, there was still mining going on at the valley, not the smelting. they would ship it out. there was a smelter in washington and there was some in candidate. so some of them could get work there but most of them just waited and waited for the minds to reopen. and they didn't. finally, many lives. but many stayed and maybe get involved with the ski industry year. those industries are so much less. it really hurt the town a lot. i wanted to write a book about kellogg because i grew up here, and i began it as a novel about the labor strike that happened
when i was a junior and senior in high school. so i came back to interview people about this strike and find out more about it because i knew a lot about it because i worked for a lawyer who helped form the new union but i learned i didn't know anything. the more i talked to people, the more i learned, and it just seemed i should be trying to preserve the story of the people who lived here. because the mining was gone by then, and there was such -- it was such a community. everybody really helped each other through the hard times, through the good times. and it seemed to me it ought to be remembered somehow. so i decided to put this book together. >> during booktv's recent visit to coeur d'alene, we spoke to a local author details wider this time in the odyssey in
1884. -- wyatt earp. he arrived in eagle city in january 1884. and, in fact, he came over from compton falls, montana, over the mouse to get the. he heard about a gold rush, people are supposed to build a find money, gold laying on the ground. everybody was coming here from all over the country. because the railroad made a display in the papers, all over the country about how wonderful a gold rush was the they were trying to build up their clientele on their trains and that's the reason they did that. when he got there it was the worst winter they had had since god knows when, but it was 30-foot snow drifts and just horrible weather. he had to walk from thompson falls with his wife, and they
came into eagle city in january 1884. he gained fame as this gunfight at the o.k. corral, and in tombstone, arizona. really pretty famous. they made a lot of moves about it, but when he got to the camp, he was with the notoriety that people name. so they voted him to be the sheriff sort of off-the-cuff thing. 1882 is when prichard found goal in the coeur d'alene up in the mountains. wasn't much better than. and then when went to spokane he let it be known that he had gold, a bunch of guys forced them to go back to try to find the mine and he couldn't find it again. but there wasn't anything there. the indians were gone and it was
just countryside than. and then coeur d'alene, there was anything here either, the city. it was just barely getting started. they had for coeur d'alene here, and that was pretty much all trees in camps. the gold rush started in the fall season of 1883. that's when people started really coming over here. they were coming from everywhere. of course in the west there wasn't much here than, you know, but people come in and filing claims on property with snow on the ground. the people before then filed the same claims but the snow covered their clean markers. so that other people come in and reclaim and they finally took it to court. they gave it to the person who had the lowest claim markers in the snow. wyatt earp came here as a saloon
owner. he owned saloons in deadwood, south dakota while he was the sheriff there. he owned saloons down in texas, too. the thing that was his forte was being a businessman, and what he did was he bought the white elephant saloon, and some of the places and that's where he was sort of ramrodded up. well, great if people will come from the mines and they been up in the mountains for weeks and she finally found goal and they want to spend it and have a good time your he owned a couple of mines, and that's -- he owned mines and had people working for him. i'm not sure if he can go and i
can suffer and so, but they say he jumped mines and he was taken to court and lost one or two cases. he was sort of the business end of it. he was doing pretty good. he have a lot of people working for him. his wife, josie, i'm sure that she sang in a local saloon. they had a house. i think he did pretty well for himself. when he left ear he must have had a pretty good amount of money with him, but he went back down to texas with his girlfriend. welcome i worked in the mines for years and have always heard the story about wyatt earp coming to the coeur d'alene. when i was a kid i used to write stories and things, and i started writing stories about mining and one thing or another,
printing them in local newspapers and that sort of thing. i had a column in a local paper here for quite a long time, but anyhow, that's what made me start writing about wyatt earp, because i heard the story that he was here. people who built our history, they shouldn't be forgotten. and i think it's important to remember our history because if you don't have our history, what do you have? there's nothing. just a bunch of people. >> coeur d'alene, idaho is named after the coeur d'alene people, a native american tribe who were named for the tough for trading practices. the city has been called a little slice of heaven by barbara walters and is also on the list of the 1000 places to visit before you die by patricia schultz. while visiting the city with help of our local partner, time warner cable, booktv spoke to robert carriker about his book
"father peter john de smet." the book tells the story of a jesuit missionary who work with the native american tribes of the pacific northwest. >> father de smet was a jesuit missionary who was the most prominent catholic missionary in the 19th century. he came to the pacific northwest in 1840. he was invited by native people, but being invited by native people is not the same thing as getting an assignment from the jazz what's. a jesuit superior in st. louis would have to weigh what this extension of jesse lewis from st. louis was going to cost. he was an administrator, and so when father de smet found these indians, in fact, they found
him, what happened was he was a missionary among the pottawattamie indians from council bluffs, iowa. and one day he saw a group of canoes from the missouri river. he went down to greet them and as he went down to greet them, he heard them speaking to one another in french. french, his native language. how could this be that they were speaking french? he came to find out that they were your quite indians, that the iroquois indians are from a jesuit area of new friends. they are from the saint lawrence river. well, what happened was when for trade companies moved across the map of canada they more or less leapfrogged across each other.
in other words, the hudson bay company would trap that a certain area and the competing company, the northwest company, which leapfrogged over them to areas that have not been trapped out. and the paddlers for the northwest country -- company were recruited from the chest of schools in the saint lawrence valley. when they reached the pacific in canada, then they were released from the job and they went south and they found a home amongst pacific northwest indians. and so it was these iroquois indians who told indians of the pacific northwest that there is a new world out there. there is a master of life and there are these men who can teach you about the master of life and a new set of ideas. and so these iroquois were central to the bringing of
christianity to the tribes of the pacific northwest. and at a certain point, those iroquois said, well, if you don't believe me, we will go to where the jesuits are and we will ask them to come to us. and so that is how those native people, primarily the flatheads, but also we blew there were others in the group, that's how they were on the missouri river on their way to st. louis, to knock on the door of the jesuits at st. louis university. and father de smet met him, found out what their goal was. he followed them in a couple of weeks, and then he said to his superior, i can take that assignment. i would be good at that assignment. i've had experience with the pottawattamie's. i am not a full-fledged jesuit
priest. i'm ready to take this assignment. what each tribe hoped to gain by having a missionary is a complicated story, as you can well imagine. they wanted to know more about this master of life that they had heard from the iroquois indians. but the iroquois indians had oversold the idea, and so the native people of the pacific northwest, the interior pacific northwest, those native people had a higher expectation that they would not just be to learn the story of a master of life that they had not known before, but they came to extrapolate
what the iroquois had told them into believing that perhaps they could now be great warriors because they would have a spiritual dimension that if not make them bulletproof, and they did not believe that, but it would make them superior warriors. and so the truth of the matter is that when you read the letters of the jesuit missionaries, after only just a few years before the judge lets have been your even five years -- the jesuits have been here if invited, they were writing that they were troublesome indications that the native people were taking their christian teachings and
believing that it had made them so superior that, in fact, they were becoming troublesome to their neighbors. they were no longer negotiating the differences between hunting privileges, between, say, the flatheads and the crows. now they were taking an arbitrary forthright position that they were superior, and you had better not challenge us militarily for we have a secret weapon. now, the reason i said that that becomes very complicated, is because the tribe just across the border in canada, the blackfeet, that tribe was very
military, and that tribe received weapons from canadian fur trappers who did not have the same concern about arming the native people of the pacific northwest. so the blackfeet became bullies in the pacific northwest, and the flatheads believed that they were now going to be able to go up against that tribe, for they, they had learned something about the master of life. they had a secret weapon. but i said they became a complicated story because father de smet and his conferees, that means his fellow jazz what's, they believe that the best way to bring peace to the pacific northwest among the tribes was
to go to the blackfeet and to say to them, we need to have peace. this is what the mass of life wants us to be. we should meet, we should talk, we should make ourselves friendly instead of hostile. well, that was the attitude of father de smet and his conferees, and to that end, father de smet in 1844 and 45 went north across the 49th parallel into the blackfeet territory to talk to them. but now you see what happens is when the flatheads find out that father de smet has gone to their enemies, they now believe that he is the moral equivalent of what we would call today and
arms manufacturer who is arming both sides in the war. and so, the native people of the pacific northwest, the interior tribes, they then had a falling out with the jazz what's because they believed that father de smet and his conferees were not telling the blackfeet the same ideas that they were telling them. and they had suddenly lost their advantage. and so it's very clear that some of the missions will not be closed because there is a lack of order by the native people. so this again goes to the idea that father de smet is a
cultural broker. because while he is in the pacific northwest that are dynamics that are going on that he could see but not foretell. he could see them after they happened, but he did not have the link vision to see that when he went to blackfeet he was endangering his relationship with the interior tribes of the flatheads the coeur d'alene, the spokane's. and so when father de smet left the pacific northwest in 1846, the pacific northwest was in perhaps, in all honesty, more
turmoil than when he had come. and that wasn't what he had intended there to be. father de smet was relieved of his position by the father general of the society in rome. he was unhappy because he wanted to be out on the trails. he wanted to be in the indian camps. he wanted to be in a canoe, on the back of a mule exploring. so he was very unhappy. he was very discouraged being back in st. louis. but in time he got an invitation from the federal government, united states federal government, and there was going to be in 1851 a gigantic indian conference at fort laramie in present-day wyoming.
and they asked father de smet who had such a touch with the native people, would he go and be of assistance? and so his superiors in st. louis said, well, you are not really supposed to be leaving here going back on the trail, but it would not be politics for us to turn down an invitation of this magnitude, so yes, father de smet can go. so that is how father de smet reinstated himself as an indian missionary. he went to this conference, and from there he received invitations from other tribes, will you come and visit us? and he accepted those invitations. and little by little he put
himself back into the missionary mode, and he continued to be in that missionary mode until he died in 1873. so yes, he did come back to the pacific northwest numerous times, and every time he came, the indians remembered him, recognized him. he had an opportunity to do good for his, what he called, his family. his legacy is that he is remembered by the tribes. the coeur d'alene tribe, for example, would never forget him. in fact, their headquarters, church on the coeur d'alene indian reservation is at de smet, idaho. they do not easily forget this man. he is in their oral history. is recognized by the jesuits of
the pacific northwest as the great founder, the very first of the superiors of the rocky mountain mission. and that is the reason his statute is outside on the campus right in front of college hall at gonzaga university campus. because he is the founding father of the jesuits in the pacific northwest. his legacy would include here at gonzaga university the highest award that we can give to anyone is a de smet metal. we have in the northwest we have de smet streets. and so we have a de smet kind of tour here on the campus. there's no question but that everybody will recognize the name de smet in the pacific
northwest, even when they don't know why they should know these names. they do, in fact, know his name and they know he is a pioneer, but they don't know as well as they should, but, of course, nobody knows history as those they should. they don't know as well as they should who he was, what he did, as a broker, culture in the pacific northwest. >> for more information on booktv's recent visit to coeur d'alene, idaho and the many of the cities visited by our local content vehicles, go to c-span.org/localcontent. >> in a survey of major newspapers made in 1909, the "kansas city star" was rated more in favor of reform at all the other major metropolitan newspapers in the united states
combined. as nelson himself told an interviewer in 1910, i don't want to start editorials to be a lot of literary essays. i want to get things done. nelson followed up his strictures on past performance witwas an editorial in the star that rejected the notion that roosevelt was a man on horseback. he is a builder, recalled to his works at the paper, rather than a man on horseback. .. a couple more
hours to go this afternoon, and now joining us here on our set in miami is jeremy scahill. here he is, his most recent book, "dirty wars: the world is a battlefield. " mr. scahill, earlier you were on a >> and george packer, and one of the questioners asked you what do you see as the difference between how the bush administration and the obama administration approach the war on terror. >> right. , i mean, i think first of all it's great to be with you here on c-span and booktv. the bush with administration, i don't want to understate how atrocious i think that period was in american foreign policy. it really was like murder incorporated. the destruction of iraq, the creation of the cia black sites, the idea that the geneva convention was --
[inaudible] the abu ghraib torture, using guantanamo, you could go on and on in characterizing it. so i don't want to get into a thing about is obama worse than bush. i covered those wars, i know what happened. under president obama i think what we have is someone who has sort of rebranded some of the more egregious aspects of the bush-cheney counterterror apparatus and i think has convinced himself that they're waging a smarter war. so they're relying on the drones much more than the bush administration did, using small team of coovert operators to conduct either kill or capture, and because guantanamo remains open despite the president's pledge to close it during his anytime office, i think that the obama administration doesn't want to capture too many people. so the kill-capture program has generally become a kill program. and so at the end of the day, i think the enduring legacy for president obama on the issues i cover is that he made possible a continuation of the bush-cheney counterterrorism apparatus. i imagine dick cheney fly
fishing on his boat somewhere in wyoming, you know, sort of having a good chuckle and saying, you know, thank god obama was president because the next time we're in power, we're going to be able to continue doing this stuff. >> host: jeremy scahill, how large is the drone program in the u.s. right now? >> guest: well, we have very little information about it. let's remember that for almost the entire first term that president obama was in office, he never publicly mentioned the drones except on a google plus hangout in response to a question that a young person had asked him. no u.s. officials would ever publicly own that the u.s. even had a drone program. an american citizen was killed in a drone strike, this guy anwar al-awlaki who was from the united states and went to yemen and was making these youtube videos, they killed him in 2011. 600 days later president obama gives a speech where he owns the fact that the u.s. is doing this. there are secret bases in saudi arabia, oman, in east africa. my understanding is there also is a facility inside of yemen and, of course, in afghanistan drones are being flown across
the border into pakistan. for some time there was also a drone base in pakistan that blackwater, the mercenary company, worked on as well and, of course, i wrote a book about that. it's a pretty large program. and to me, one of the things that's fascinating and devastatingly awful about the whole thing is that you can have guys who are trained drone pilots, you know, it's not true that they're unmanned. they very much are manned, but they're manned remotely. you can have a drone pilot sitting in a trailer on a military base in the southwest of the united states, and he is ening in a -- engage anything a bombing in pakistan or yemen, and he gets in his suv at the end of the day, and he passes a sign saying buckle up, this is the most dangerous part of your day. meaning that you're in a war zone theoretically, and you're dropping actual bombs on people, but you have a greater chance of being hit by another vehicle or having a traffic accident than you do in being killed in a war that you're engaged in. >> host: jeremy scahill is our
guest, if you were watching booktv a little bit earlier, you saw him on the panel with dan balz and george packer. 202 is the area code, 585-3890 in the east and central time zones, 585-3891 for those of you in the mountain, pacific and beyond time zones. you can also send a tweet, @booktv is our twitter handle. what is jsoc? >> the joint special operations command is the most elite team of commandos, soldiers, navy seals that has ever been created in the u.s. national security apparatus. it actually started in 1980s after the failed hostage mission in iran. there's a whole other story that wasn't dealt with in "argo," and that is the that the u.s. military was authorized to go in and rescue the american hostages who had been taken when our embassy was seized in 1979. that operation was a disaster, and the navy was fighting with the army, the army was fighting with the air force, a helicopter
crashed because of a sandstorm. and after that the pentagon and officials in the white house began discussing the creation of a sort of full-spectrum all-star team. and they originally acquired two what are called special missionsen units that could conduct -- missions that could conduct special operations. one was navy seal team six. they wanted the soviets to believe they had a greater capacity than they did, and the other was the army's delta force. and for much of its existence it operated in the shadows in small-scale investigations, they were involved with the killing of pablo escobar, the colombian drug war. after 9/11 cheney and rumsfeld really came up with this idea. they thought that the cia was a liberal think tank which is hilarious to anyone who knows the history of the cia. but they really did believe that the cia had been melted down to, basically, a debased society under the clinton administration.
and they felt that the military's covert unit would be the best weapon that the u.s. could use in a discreet global secret war. and so they injected jsoc with steroids. and general stanley mcchrystal ran jsoc for much of the bush era, and they began operating what was effectively a global hunting organization. and they weren't hunting deer, they were hunting people. and they did their own interrogation. they have their own secret prisons. it was a whole parallel apparatus to what the cia had traditionally had sovereign realm other. >> host: how did you get involved in this line of work? >> guest: purely by accident. i went to university thinking i wanted to be a middle schoolteacher. and i discovered very soon after i got to the university what it meant to be on academic probation. i was a terrible student. so if i'm a horrible student, i don't know how i'm going to teach the youth of america to do anything. [laughter] it's not that i was screwing around and out partying, i just wasn't very good at school. and, you know, i would say that i was enrolled at the university, not that i was attending the university.
and after three years -- this was in wisconsin -- and after three years i decided that i wanted to do something in the real world, and i moved to this homeless shelter in washington, d.c., the community for creative nonviolence which was just two blocks from the capitol at the time. you know, hundreds of people. and i started, i was mopping floors and cleaning toilets and taking a lot of veterans, actually, to doctors' appointments. at that time for me the idea that a veteran was living in a homeless shelter was stunning to me, and i would talk to all of these old guys. and i started listening to a lot of talk radio. and i had never heard of this woman called amy goodman, and i heard her one day on the radio, and she's taking on newt gingrich, the speaker or of the house, and taking on rebels this the congo and talking about social justice struggles in the united states, on immigration issues, and i said i want to be a part of that. some of the young folks who might be familiar with the terms i'm about to use, but i used a pen and what was called paper, and i wrote her something we
used to call a letter and put it inside of what's called an envelope, and i licked this thing called a stamp -- anyway,. [laughter] i want to do anything for you if i can. if you have a dog, i'll walk your dog or feed your camp. and then i started going to events. she never responded. i was stalk her, basically, not in a creepy way, and i think she had to decide whether to get a restraining order or let me volunteer. so she let me volunteer, and i learned journalism as a trade. real reporters would ask me to help them edit their pieces, so i learned by p watching journalists who i really admired engage in the trade. and once i started going international, going places like iraq, a fire just caught inside of me, and i wanted to tell the stories of people who had no voice. >> host: jeremy scahill is the author of "black water, the rise of the world's most powerful mercenary army." he serves as national security correspondent for the nation magazine. his most recent book, "dirty wars: the world is a battlefield."
the first call for him comes from carl in ft. lauderdale. hi, carl, you on book -- you're on booktv on c-span2. jeremy scahill is our guest. >> caller: yes, el low. i've followed jeremy's career for quite a while. i think his work is exemplary on blackwater and especially in the new book. earlier on the panel you had suggested that possibly we're in the reason that we're in the state we are now with obama was basically naive. he had no military experience, no foreign policy experience. if you could speak to him in light of what snowden has revealed, what could be done? because to my light, he's about the best kind of we're going to get. another bush or cheney would be a disaster. so here's a guy, a constitutional lawyer, a liberal, a good man. what could he do now to really make transparent and stop some of these abuses as you see them? >> host: thank you, carl. >> guest: appreciate the question. first of all, i don't think -- and if i gave that impression, i didn't mean to -- i don't think that president obama was knew
brief. i think he's an incredibly brilliant figure. in fact, when he was in the senate, i worked with his office at times journalistically on the blackwater issue, you know, because he has a young -- he as a young u.s. senator actually was pretty serious about that issue. so i don't think it's about naivete, i think if he came into office without having military experience, without having serious foreign policy credentials and was to say to the entire u.s. national security apparatus, actually, i disagree with everything and i'm going to do it this way, i think he would have had a very tough time being the commander or in chief. ..
former defense secretary and rodriguez ran the program and they are are in book tour right now in one official who was imprisoned for blowing the whistle on water boarding. the nuances important but the most devastating part is obama has lost hisicy credibility to put a stamp of legitimacy are policies that democrats would oppose. >> host: john called wou earlier this and i promised him i would ask you this question. wide you continually bashs the president or president obama? >> i don't bash him at all. onl
united states constitution. and that is because we have three branches of government. and if those three branches of power collude together against the interest of the people the press is the forth estate. and journalist have a role to take against those in authority. what i would say to the caller is go back and look at my record in reporting on clinton, bush j obama. i have been consistent towards those in power and that is a core tenant of journalism. it doesn't how president obama treats his daughter. i care about how he treats the broader children in america by
his policies. >> robert, you are on booktv. >> hi, jeremy, thanks for taking the call. first off, thank you for your courage is being the last shining light of journal'tshinig light of journa shining light of journal'ism. and it was cool to hear you write the letter and i will pester you to get an internship in the new outlet you are starting. i watched the film dirty war and there are many aspects of this story that strike me to believe the united states foreign policy and what they are doing over there, is creating more terrorism than it is ridding the
world of. my question to you as someone who knows about this, and the true consequences of these policies, is do you think it would be beneficial to leave that part of the world alone? bring the military back. defend america. and stop invading countries. or do you think some presence over there is necessary? >> thank you, robert. >> i do think that we should totally pull out militarily from this nations. i think there is a responsibility way to do that. you cannot move tens of thousands of troops and equipment overnight so there has to be a safe way of withdrawing. and i don't know if you remember this but when governor george ryan was governor of georgia. he was a republican and cochair
of bush's campaign. it wasn't that ryan was opposed to the death penalty. it was that there was proof, a lot generated by students, that innocent people were being put to death and dna evidence was working for them after hey were killed. i think we have hit that point with the drone strikes, targeted killing and night raids and the use of secret prison. we need to look at how far we have gone over the cliff since 9-11. >> and debby is calling from just across the mbay in miami beach. your on live with jeremy
scahill. >> debby, we will have to put you on hold. remind her to turn down the volume and we will move on to the next call. this is richard in massachusetts. >> hi, i am like you and i need my daily dose of amy's show and i brought your book in cambridge when she interviewed you. my question is three days after 9-11, the congress minus congressman lee, was the only authorization of the use of military force was passed. and bush and obama have used the authorization to do anything they want in the middle east with drones or whatever. my question is do you think that the neo conservatives and
liberals will resend that law? can you believe we will have troops in afghanistan until 2024. >> there is a lot there. i think the original authorization was a disaster piece passed because of fear. i tell young people to be watch barbara's speech. imagine being the only decenter in congress on that vote days after the 9-11 attacks took place. there is discussion about repealing or modifying the authorization for the use of military force, but at the end of the day, under the article two of the constitution, the american has the right to control foreign policy.
democrats and republicans alike have violated the war power act and not sought congressional approval to go to many wars. even if we repealed the amf, there is the overlying issue that there is an incredible executive power grab that was the life work of chaney and obama pushed it further along. >> jeremy, in reading "dirty wars" where are we surprised about the troop ss? >> a lot of the book focus on africa and near the kenya boarder and it is called camp simba. and there is where they con fronted the pirates that is now made into a movie. but they regularly do raids
there. and they have a military base in another area where drones are flown. there are troops on the ground in syria, libya, and a lot of smoke about ben gaza and a lot is conspiracy on the whitehouse. but there is a lot we don't know about. there were operations that are not documented and my sense is the attack had nothing to do with the video, but everything to do with the dirty wars. in the conflict in mali there were people on the ground. in central america there are united states military and cia engaged in military style
tickets. on any given day, j-shock or others are deployed in 120 countries. some cases are training but some are hunting them down. the united states is targeting islamic rebels in the fill feenz. -- philippines -- >> i have a quick question for you: have see seen the rise of amy and which version of journalism do you consider the most legit form? alex jones is more basic.
what is your answer to that? >> i got the question. i want to be careful in choosing my words. i think alex jones is a lunatil. he has forwarded the most outrageous conspiricacy theorie. he is pushing outright law and that subverts real journalism by giving the impression everyone is running around with a tin foil hat on. he is not in the same category as amy goodwin. >> greg from iowa. >> let me put this on mute here.
i was wondering is the common tater here earlier said he was going to ask you the question about how come you always slam president obama. and you mentioned that for you it was because of some of his policie policies. oh, crum. the person in the whitehouse -- >> greg, what is your point? >> my point was -- oh -- >> greg, did you have a question for jeremy scahill? >> he did a good job of
explaining. >> greg, very much we appreciate your calling but we will move on to lorenzo in berkeley, california. >> thank you for taking my call. i am calling from barbara lee's congressional district and i was lucky enough to see you speak in may and love the book. my question is for you is given things like rand paul and the drone issues and the hearings and then people visiting for the congress people. do you think events are a shift in the drone strikes or are they drops in the buckets. >> i felt embarrassed as an
american when he had the pakistan and yemen family members of drone strike victims and only a handful of congressmen showed up. he is an incredible man and is on a panel with academics and was asked almost no questions. i don't think it represents a shift. i think congressman grace credit and congressman myers and lee has been-spoken on this. you raise rand paul and this is fascinating thing that has happened. rand paul did something i think congressional democrats should have done and that is to shutdown the congress and say let's take a stock of how far we
have gone. we have a president who won the noble prize and saying he has the right to assassinate a united states citizen. rand paul is against everything i am in favor in. but on these he is right. but when people like sarah palin starts tweeting against drones that is political. she is riding around in the helicopter shooting at animals and she would love drones if she were in charge. >> chen from richmond, virginia. go ahead with your question. >> thank you. this is kind of along the same lines as the last caller. but i want to get your thought
about what happens with syria and how, you know, all signs pointed to a strike. and it just changed and if you thing it was political against obama or congressman like grayson. what were the difference forces at play that affected us not going in? and if you could talk about what happened this morning in iran as well. >> so, first of all, on the syria issue, the united states is already intervening in syria. the cia is supporting groups with weapons and strategic satellite imagery to enable them to engage with forces. the russians are involved. the iranians are involved. the united states is engaged
already. but your question is interesting. i think what happened was president obama made this statement that for him a red line was the use of chemical weapons. and when it came out they used chemical weapons. obama is being asked by the press and al llies what are you going to do? and they were looking at a strike with maybe drones and tomahawks that would send a m s message and didn't intend for an exte extended air fair. and the obama was caught off guard on the opposition. and people on the left are fed
wind up with the wars. the whitehouse miscalculated the opposition >> what is the companion to this? >> i was writing the book while the film was being being shot. so the nfilm is about an investigation that beacame a book. it was challenge and beneficial to do it this way. when you have interviews on video you can write color you would not be able to by taking pictures in your reporter's notebook. but when you stick a camera in someone's face they act different than if you were writing shorthand. it was an interesting road. i don't know if we would do anything like that again. i felt like my whole live was
being filmed for three years. but the director of the film is a combat camera man himself. >> you are first book on black water. have you read eric pr . . wrestling me. he would beat me. no doubt. he was a navy seal. this book was supposed to come out a year ago and there is a legal battle going on and they are suing each other. and one of the things that helped him write the book said it was in part to get revenge on me. there is a lot of propaganda people are going to put out. i only started to read the bookfe
bookfe bookfelt. but the fact no one from black water was held accountable for the killing or involvement wasn't exposed is a real injustice. i think eric prince is engaged in something we call gray mailing. not blackmailing. but he has been doing this for a long time. this is a guy who worked for the cia and has top security clearance. and black water men were at the center of some significant events. when ford chapman was blown up in 2009, there were two black men among them that were killed. and thaz that is how close they were to someone that was aware of the meeting. eric prince knows where lots of buddies are buried and whose
closets contain threats that would threaten the livelihood of people. and eric prince has been affective at keeping the government away. >> two best-sellers, george poke awards, you write for the nation, how has life changed since mopping floors at the center of non-violence? >> one of the first interviews i did was here on booktv. i had never done anything like that before. when i wrote the book, i went on the daily show and i said i don't want to ever do this. i feel every time i am invited to go on a bigger television show. i feel like i am speaking for a lot of people whose voices are
>> h ost: this is a terrific kid and engrossing book. begin by telling me why did george washington need conspiring? >> guest: thank you. he needed inspiring because he has the numbers problem and experience problem. at autopsy had 9,000 people the british had 40,000 troops. >> host: over the whole course of the war in get as much as 80,000. washington sees what happens they see the revolution right before his eyes after the success of massachusetts. >> host: what your? >> 1776 when he really comes over. i consider success at bunker hill. they look to canada to regroup in washington knows when they come back to new
york. they come back to new york city and he knows he cannot be to them so he has to use espionage a and a guerrilla warfare agent be smarter than that and to anticipate them so it is the logic that he needs a spy for sale of his own cia. then you find out he has the huge the espionage background. from the event:dash french and indian war so he tells others that this is where we meet we have to find these people to help me out. >> host: so just to fill in the brat -- background tell us what he did in the friendships and indian war. >> guest: i did not study it extensively but he was an officer to work with the french and find out what were they thinking here or there?
and he also made mistakes. he was way too aggressive as a colonel at that point and he learned from that. that is something else it is fantastic about washington. he who could do nothing wrong made mistakes agent he learned from it and he wrote it down and chronicled everything. my goal was to bring washington to live and to let average ordinary people go from this generation what they're capable of doing by looking at that generation. >> host: the british has taken the york in the summer of 70 and 76. what is the importance of new york city in the strategic shape? >> this was educational for me that people stationary give this to my 15 year old? i grew up on long island i
love history and social studies and i would just think with this be on the test? >> host: if you look at the 13 colonies of the location is the center of the new country. most of the traffic, cobbers, the wear big ships could come in or come out. then you could grow food and you could feed an army. the british army. it is a plan to become a country they cannot do it. as long as they have control of that area. >> washington's first idea of the spy is nathan hale? tell us about that. >> guest: nathan hale wanted to see the auction in
just missed bunker hill sid he comes back with washington and there was a familiarity there. i gail graduate and teacher in to he volunteers to be a spy in washington says they need volunteers. he had no experience and is extremely bright and ambitious and peerless. he was sent him over against his better instincts. as part of research would reveal to see the point at which he would cross ended a couple of days there was a story going around about one said he was overheard asking questions somebody pretended to be sympathetic he was caught and captured a few days later he is saying to
unceremoniously the debates about this location they understand that when i looked there i believe was a dress for less but there's a big black bear here stood nathan hale and where would they be next? but this is not mars but new york city. you will not be a loyalist? we will be direct. >> host: he failed because of his experience if he is a stranger to the area. >> guest: from the northeast and does not even know l.i. period witnesses i only regret i only have one life to live for my country he may or may not have said
but people noted his bravery. also the way in which he died. washington did not seem to have replaced much so it took washington one year. it's a kim one year to regroup. >> host: id what conclusions does he draw from the failure of nathan hale? >> we have to be clear of our objectives in a communique and that has to be more than one person in the way that washington can communicate with somebody familiar with the area a at dougherty york, with its present trust worthy of belief of the mission beyond a understand sp tires and -- espionage. they had victims of pt esty of work run down every day. they did not know this would be the last day they were alive robert townsend never
gets his life together afterwards. they can't have the book people ask me questions what happened next? so i started to look into his letters his older brother solomon who is a stud in he is righty letters how to get it together get out of the house. that reminds me of what we have learned with the tsd -- ptsd because the mission is not clear. >> host: who was the officer washington turns to? >> alternately -- ultimately it is benjamin tallmadge to is a roommate of nathan hale
>> host: they knew each other from yale. >> guest: benjamin had shown himself as a natural leader by all indications it as the site know his 55 page biography written in 1935 was one of the most 50 -- fascinating 50 pages i had to read because he could say this is what washington was like and what he did a of i was next to him. so he got the commission and the way i i understand it. >> host: where was benjamin from? >> i was just there and at his house, . >> host: long island? >>. >> guest: and our rural land of long island and some swampy areas near the water
and benjamin tallmadge to live dry by though water everybody knew them. a at a lot of these families just knew each other because there were few a of they would stay a year and grow. he knew the area and he went back. the first copy made -- stop he bade was to abraham of what hall who was convinced it was somebody he could trust. he is the last remaining son a and the older brother had died a and abraham was dependent upon his sisters and parents for him to be the man of the house. his dad was sickly and so was he. but his heart was in the right place. >> host: so he was a
farmer. >> guest: and like others you fight the war. i have to farm. i am not happy with the stamp act but i am not ready to fight to. leave me out. but the british became so oppressive acting like thugs and crooks they would militarize the whole area to the people that were in different mobilized him and he was doing suspicious things and he was supposed to be arrested he cannot find his way home. he gets pumped up with different activities but they do go to his house and they've beefed up his dad
pretty good. he is a and older man. in front of the wife feared daughters if it is humiliating it also sends a message to woodhall as much as i despise the british i put my family through this. there were times when individuals spies say i have to lay low or want out. that was the time. i have to lay low. so others pick up the slack. >> host: did woodhall suggested next people? >> what washington would titty was critical, i have the boat moving. and woodhall would write back.
i am not much of a writer. i never thought i was a spy. i do the best i can. but to have a reason or a covers story this the then to leave it will look suspicious of that led to another famous man which was the towns and family from oyster bay and long island. >> host: what is their connection with new york city? >> guest: they had a dry goods business. i go back to the house described the pact said as a sprawling mansion. now it looks like a rowhouse. but after ito said was found to be a spy they said stop building around here a and preserve its.
he says of the brother a.m. they would say he would stay here his dad was well-respected dialogue with the sisters all into one room. now all of a sudden susceptible from the way the british are treating them and there is no where to stay. he did not like to see his dad like this respected by betty and fought to have signed a loyalist note he would be loyal to the crowd. but he was bullied into that absolutely. of drinking and debauchery between the people so it tells and picks up stakes in and goes into the city. he is of good spy because he is intelligent and he is motivated. number three his dad was in the shipping business he
knew the size and how much material was coming in and going out to. his information immediately upgraded the quality of the copper ring. washington would say that it is the code name and but culpeper was the region to mayor washington was born samuel culpeper or culper and junior and senior. to key members of the spy ring. >> host: how do they get the information to york it out of a york and convey it back to the americans? at. >> guest: they are able to listen now i listen if fear
of people talk loud and other times people say what is going on? where are we headed? great. he would go upstairs a and write a letter and go to the location in and write it in invisible ink. it was precious that john j. invented or brought to the states for off. >> host: talk about that. how did it work? >> guest: they call the sympathetic. i tried this. imagine writing in not be able to see the letter prior. it is very confusing. >> host: it vanishes? >> guest: as you bright. you write this down and it is inside a box or of the white page or you right 76
in the middle that means go to 76 in the "journal" book the pages blank that is the message if you want to bring it to light to go to 76. jumping ahead they got more sophisticated afterwards when they said nobody goes white page to white page so right between the lines. so they went to the printing press guy who owned the does said they would take the box to right on a certain page and they would send the message that way. the guy who would pick it up was a name of austin rover if i was to motivate anyone he is a tavern owner coverage right good odor, a farmer, print one dash printing press the people
think i am not washington but kid you owned a tavern in willing to sacrifice for the cause? that is what we see from today in my humble opinion. they could get that message office and they have a bar. a tavern. my friend would pick it up. every time was perilous going through british forces many times they were drunk popping of the of very going back 55 miles giving it to a widow who would package it up to give it to brewster. he is a captain. when he comes to life he is and the rock. he is a big strong
determined to the end, but did tea is the only one without the souders name. they put six guys together with a whaleboat and he decides i will go across long island sound. picture a body of water at the plate to the cost was 26 miles. i was down there in october. freezing. 65 degrees in and it is choppy remember a word think about doing that december or january to weave through data navy anb the aggressor to pick up messages and drop-off messages to a career. >> host: he takes them across the sound? >> guest: with five other guys on a regular basis.
>> host: then he sends it to washington? >> guest: they've read it again. >> host: how do you read that the ink? >> host: you have to use the right and use it to bring it to life. there is a passage that woodhall brings it to life and his sisters yell at him meanwhile it is at stake in washington says treat this like cold we don't have much -- gold we don't have much. now people will fight to me on this but it is our conclusion there was a woman they refer to someone that would be the extreme help to us. when she joined after the letter the intelligence picks up and it seems that she penetrated the social circles.
and entrees two is the key figure very well respected and is a spy for the british eventually working with benedict arnold with the effort to change the world forever to end the '04. this will bid seems to penetrate social circles with extreme danger all around. without a shadow of a doubt that james the only employed townsend. >> host: of the first stay with the zero women. what else do we know? >> guest: very sophisticated and comfortable with high end social circles. >> host: you don't give us her name to what we don't have it i don't think is strong but somebody to be perfectly comfortable in the
higher end upper-class area. >> host: she would be going to british parties? >> guest: absolutely. she is identified in the ledgers. hey general washington i have good news. they played be number seven in and of a new york was 86 7-eleven to 86 you cannot figure it out. sheet is referred to as 355. she is known as the lady. and we conclude sheet had to die after benedick arnold came back to new york city determined to find out the spy who would unmasks the plot so culper quit and said
i am out. if he would say that he is still on i will not come back. but they would eventually come back but it seems there was a sadness i believe with another six months i could closer to name somebody then there's 27 separate historians to do this every day. why will i reach as something as insignificant to the woman is? >> host: so for now all we have is 355. >> guest: i believe somebody else will write exactly to that is. >> host: you already mentioned james river in 10. >> guest: when i first started this project not knowing what i wanted to do
with it i thought that james clearly the editor of loyalist newspaper a of a loyal to the crown. and it was part of the sons of liberty prior to the war. but at some point during the war he switched sides. he kept righty am putting help the newspaper. >> host: he pointed out in new york city it is the river in tin foil to set. guess where the newspaper went? also back to britain. my son that captain look what he has established. look at the plans he has for the end of the war will get the maneuvers he says he will do. he would write that then get additional information and put it into the newspaper
and work with them and also with 355. >> host: so he knows more than he prints. >> guest: absolutely and gives it to washington. >> host: so we have the secret six in place it in the new york city and long island. one of the things they accomplish, a give us one revelation that is crucial to one. >> guest: one of the first big breaks is a british was bragging they sold the paper that we make our currency. laid down know we print the currency pretty rapidly if you flood the market the patriot market to or the new colonies with currency it
makes the pay worthless. so the farmers were losing money and losing their farms what could be harder? if they fled the market they would dispirit the troops then they would break up the series of losses almost annihilated what i most respect about washington he says everything from this day our is new currency we change it. everything before that still works so they made the adjustment. and townsend was directly involved. >> host: because they knew about the paper? >> word got to townshend in philadelphia the paper they are printing just like cars with a special paper it was
logically did not know brewster, but would absolutely have to know rowand would help because woodhall would do to new york city bad. i was escaped before tabs instead and it kind of save the rain. so they did interact. they did go. but i find fascinating is that afterwards interact match. when there's a barbecue at the end of the war, thompson never showed good washington showed up, say, guys, i want to meet neighboring. on the hostage row when the police not washington. the best kept to themselves. >> that's also a safety precaution. so if somebody is caught and questioned severely, he can't spill the beans.
>> guest: and a day. the cia told me to read into this. i kept reading that tenet didn't know what it meant. so, they said they did that drops. if i am looking to get information to you, i might put you at these coordinates at this rock. >> host: but that is a dead drop rate here. >> guest: take that will pick it up. >> host: we were talking about dead drops. finish that off. >> guest: yesterday about the tools of the trade. one is the cia told me what to the virginia and i did that because i want to make sure it wasn't so caught up in the story that has been blurred by.
i wanted to make sure, and that could have the right path and say this is a special group and they told me they teach their guys this thing. i go how would you define that? they said you have a set location and i would tell you, go to 66 and 30 give you coordinates. when you decided it was okay to pick it up, then you would pick it up. so you're caught, i am not. that information is put in a way whether it's encrypted over the visible link is not going to get you in trouble. sedated drops all over the place. >> host: and is the change? >> guest: john, a lot was on whittles property, which i went back to last week. the site nine houses right now. they just have this property in different areas by different senses, where he'd be up to pick up stuff dropped off by a few dobro were in able to go through
his house and then cave to cave the brewster, who would row his way to washington. >> host: do you see a personality that all of the secret six shared any common traits they had? >> guest: yes. humility, pictures of some, humane because you see it different times all of them get close to cracking. we don't have his rantings except for after the war. he took a ball in the back an ack, guys, i thought i had a penchant. i took a bullet for you guys. that's the only time we saw him complain. i see all of that. i see the humanity. i see people adjusting to reward middle of the war and that is the way they acted. they remind me to turn citizens by makes sense. i'll do the best i can with what you tell me, but i am not
perfect. i'm not out for this. but i'll tell you what, i believe in the cause and i want these british out of here. i believe all of them are pretty intelligent and i think they got better as the war went on. you really get the sense that they got their gratification from within because they never got any money. i went out of my way and not vote to put robert tauzin's gravestone there. he's in the back of the barn, which are leaping into his head down. that's not the way to war heroes. >> host: this is in a, right? >> guest: it is stuck in what looks like a junkyard behind it. this is not the way they do it in boston for the people that we know. for the stimuli that mr. john not an scum and they know he wasn't president. do you think a war hero served their would be treated better. >> host: you also say that
reflects part of their temper and. so there's something quiet about these people are willing to be in the shadow. >> guest: i use the term admirable. they don't want the credit, but they know from within your doing something special and the cause was worth the while. >> host: you told us how they frustrated the british plot to counterfeit our money and drive inflation even higher than it is dirty going. they also frustrated an attack on the french fleet. tell us about that. >> guest: washington worried that the british knew they were on their way. he quickly activates the rain again after they were down for a little while. thompson finds out pretty quickly. this is after the death of 355 we believe. they know because they mobilize. they know exactly what they're going to do. the go to rhode island and take
out the french before they can get their planned lakes. they're going to hit them right away. >> host: the french fleet is coming to rhode island to newport? >> guest: yes, to newport. that would be the whole french navy. but there's an excellent chance the french retake classes and go i'm not into this anyway. we probably can't suffer like this. so washington again you with being it's time to block. he sent somebody into an area which she does there is resistance. he takes them off from the house and go win, a satchel comes up intentionally. and not satchel of information that washington is going to attack. but these officers think that washington just that the battle plan for washington's intention not to attack.
look what i just found from a guy who looks unseemly and got away. they said pull the troops back. they pulled the british troops back. they don't want to be the general to lose new york. they did nothing we fortified if he is capable of doing this. they had to worry. so they pulled them back. the french land is no problem. direct link. did he not like that to act debate the ring because they know they'll try to stop them before they come ashore. all washington. use these guys and their information. >> host: so does the reign of ptolemy had to do some game. he's got cannons. but my i understand you would know first. he had to let them see that they got the secret plans in order to stop it. so it's pretty genius.
>> host: did british were no slouch as that themselves. they mention a great bottom the other side. tell us how that develops. >> host: arnold we understand reached out. he gave to major andre. >> host: arnold is? >> guest: benedict arnold is a general in the american army. he said quite a bit of success. but it almost seems to be look at having a steady income he seems to be a bit of an arrogant guy who always feels he's got a persecution complex. u.s. feels as though he's getting the short end of the stick. he used his own money, has to get reimbursed. ghost philadelphia, has the command, and i've been relatively cocky about it, alienated midsummer officers. he finally says listen, if you're not going to get me washington's deal, i'm going to take west point. so we went up to west point and he stood there.
he was supposed to make a former attack for us. these guys don't have a shot and were going to come to your site. andré knows about it. andré wants to rendezvous. >> host: major andre is located in new york city. major andre is a guy with the ladies like and even a lot of americans lay, who was very gregarious. he was someone evidently good-looking guy and he also was in charge of their espionage. his code name was john bolton. john andersen. the goal was to rendezvous with benedict arnold, pretend to put up a fight. in the end, we overrun and looks like taking captive. the war is over. there's also a school of thought this seems logical that
washington not only did he want to give away west point, but pretend like he didn't want to give away west point, but hanover washington as well. resentment for the guy who got the commission he wanted to got the respect he always thought. >> host: the british to get commander-in-chief of the american army and the key to the hudson river. >> guest: and the number one most fortified base in the country. >> host: antennas work because there is a general in their midst of an officer of them is looking to switch sides. we believe 355 at the most role to play but infiltrated the social surfers about overhearing thoughts come a hearing major andre talk. all of a sudden, a tour movie. it looks like today could send up intersect, who was rendezvous it was benedict arnold and put in their plan in motion to turn
over west point. major andre get stopped. as soon as we hear about this arrest, he's brought to a local camp. >> host: he stopped behind american lines, american territory. he's in disguise. >> guest: absolutely. at the deli this guy looked like he just got out of the shower. he didn't look like the guy he was just to be. this guy's got to have money. he had no money on him really. these two cowboy like forest ranger americans who were just not in the military. they stopped him. they're loyal to us. for the most part, they're looking for a quick score. will shake this guy down. he had the money with him. come back with me. everything will be taking care of. something about his explanation that through him. talmage is on the hunt for this
officer think tips off. they bring to a local camp. as i write in the book he seems to walk with perfect style and grace. this guy is not who we think he is. when talmage arrives, benedict arnold. got this guy. you probably want to did. i think it's a british officer. >> host: he's the commanding officer is not? >> guest: talmage arrives and says you're not giving him to anybody. keep them here. i want to talk to him. it doesn't take long to find out he's a british officer. and his is a letter he was handing to arnold. arnold hears about the arrest. by the time they get to west point, benedict arnold does have got to get out of here, get out. you could trace every back to to the ring. how much new how to approach we was. it still exists today and he has
an idea. he never thinks he's going to get handing killed. the kind of agree after beating each other up for a few years. so talmage ironically is the man who watched his baby perhaps, but more than likely didn't know he was hanged for being a spy. andré is writing letters and telling washing to, okay, i've got an officer here. i've got one officer in exchange for you and its benedict arnold, general clinton is controlling new york. i can't give up in the next arnold. and there he is. he goes -- >> host: he asks talmage at one point what is going to become of me? >> guest: he thought of a firing squad. he thought the firing squad was
becoming of an officer if you assume that this life. no, i think we're going to hate you. according to talmage in his bio as well as what we found in our book, there wasn't a dry eye in the place. he hanged because he was on the wrong side of the war. >> host: what did the british think of their mail acquisition? >> guest: they liked it. if you ask me at the end would happen to despise, has to do with that answer. back and even on the right side if you're a spy come you relatively look down on a judge, even if your information is viable. washington just too highly. but the average person out it was not something to be lauded. by this time the momentum would eventually shift and he's bursting when it got to new york city to look for this bias. because i know someone found out about this. who are they? he rounded up 55 amongst many
others in a rapid rate of the region. >> host: if he did capture her, what would've become of her? >> guest: she went on a prison ship, the barge is essentially a raft. >> host: describe those. >> guest: they are brutal. you die of dysentery there or whatever diseases running through. very little food. they just want these people off land and not to be a burden and not to fear than getting out. people are basically colonies prison ships and die. that name could be her, but again, i don't want to hurt the credibility of a book by making a leap but not comfortable with. don aker and i just said let's leave at 355. backed your original question, to show you what antiquity washington have come under his interactions benedict arnold to switch sides, join him.
number two, trying to convince washington, can you let me know who they are? they do such great work. you know what he really wanted? he wanted to know who they are. before he got caught. he knew how to despise her. washington kept its promise. i'll never reveal who you are or where you are. that is my promise. >> guest: >> host: this is but washington still thinks the world of benedict arnold. excellent officer. >> guest: talmage in washington would not give up the names. again, integrity matters. this is george washington living up to the hype. why he's in enough. little things like that. he just seems to show integrity. >> host: washington liked this work, wouldn't you say? ran an aspiring? >> guest: i think you got it. >> host: what does that tell us about him? >> guest: he is a plotter,
planner, resourceful. heath miller. there's something about him that likes to secrecy. i could not give you a psychological profile in washington. i will say that he appreciates the effort it takes to get it. also she knows he absolutely needed because it's straight up against the british -- that are not to finish that sentence. does not work. he loved the process of acquiring it. the process of acquiring it because it took almost all the attributes he had if you mention resourcefulness, intellect, out inking the other guy, all those things he can reject another people. readers love when people say teachout the success. almost as much as if they had themselves. so i can imagine him see this rain coming together and the information, we'll bushlike
since the party at times give them better stuff and more stuff that better times than more ache in a timely fashion as he sees the ring search function so proficiently. i imagine he has a tremendous feeling of pride. what do you think? >> host: clearly he was doing this when he was a young man and then he does and the second for the american revolution. so he is the most honest, upright figure in the whole revolution, but there's also a part of them that likes the shadows or at least running people who are in the shadows. >> host: >> guest: how about this? he'll do anything to win. they'll have to kill me, which seems to have been impossible by the way. though have to kill me because i will keep coming up with my plan dnc to outthink a maneuver you. >> host: how does the secret
six react with mary suddenly five? with 355 gets caught. >> guest: he went down for a while. one of the letter talks about what josé and wash tuesday, if coker junior what do this, i need you to go to the city. he needs to be destroyed. robert thompson seems to be taken at the heart of thought about that. considering we didn't know for sure brewington was a spy, i don't get his emotional state. they were devastated. they went under and they were also at the same time seemed to have left the prey. benedict arnold was on the hunt and they knew they couldn't show their faces. dignity could be suspect did and remotely suspected they were scooped up because there's no code of justice are taken for the wrong reason. that's another reason i conclude she absolutely was there, absently took part in played a vital role in absolutely was killed.
>> host: thompson never married? >> guest: never married. as a kid robert junior and possibly some of the young adult books written say she had his baby, died in prison ship. but there's no evidence of that. it seemed as though robert junior's for the oyster bay people ranked, the most logical thing is one of robbers older brothers died at a young age and not critters than his kid that he raised because he stayed in the house. he didn't really amount to much if you are -- if you judge people by the financial success in business. he seems to have been significantly damaged by the war. he was en route to be a successful businessman. being successful after the war, he found a letter from solomon saint kaman, robert, pick it up. you have so much going for you. you get engaged again.
>> when the ring goes down, holland is to stay down? >> guest: i believe it stays down because when the three engaged in washington has to know that the french are coming and. so it herscher caucus out to reactivate the rain and in the latter, washington says junior cannot be -- he cannot be poked and prodded come here cannot do it. you have to find a way. we need this information quickly. it sometimes took a week in a house, sometimes two weeks. >> host: that is a week and a half and could in the information in new york to getting it back to george washington. >> if you look at it and say straightening out and say this is what we need we should use and give it to you that brewster who would go off.
>> host: now, the peace treaty is not long after the war ends. but when did the british finally leave your? >> guest: 1783. in the war was over since 81. this is where the thomas burg -- i want make this clear. i want to does not want other people have done and martin pennypacker was the one who found out who robert townsend lies when they wrote the biography and george washington's grandson i love it. let's make this book better, the story richer and more accurate. so your question was, what is it going to take to get your back? don't they know they lost the word yorktown? they're not. washington one day since records to new york.
i need to to secure some operatives that have been of extreme health risk. questioning goes, permission granted. under the american psyche takes his horse into manhattan and secures his guys. again, shows you how good they were. he believes he would be looked at his listed if it may be killed or maimed or search me her. washington wrote it and officially became an american city. they left but that essay. do i really need to go steamroll new york now? after we technically offended the word yorktown? they'll leave soon. when he made it clear for coming and coming they had dinner, hung out in two or three days later started pulling out. they went to canada and then washington as he put in the book it was good in 1793. and the biography and talks
about how a soldier while for the promotion and now yes everybody to come up and touch his hand. i expected this to be perhaps to the mile or two miles right there. he looks the same judging by the photos. get on a barge and go home. poster that's the famous and not the history books. >> guest: one of the things we are proud of his george washington pastor or church pastor washington wrote one of the first people he saw when he got into new york city was james rivington and a hurt gold changing hands. why would present washington --
general washington visit the editor, writer of his loyalist newspaper? the royal gazette, unless of course i was his great-grandson race, he was able to get a needle close, the british naval cozy for the battle of yorktown and rockets into france, the french navy to nurture less over the british still haven't figured out why they lost and were successful. so if you're that have become a right to rivington and that's exactly what he did. he'd reemerge out. best part of the mystery of this. when i first started researching mass, they did not know he how you, but the more i researched it, he did higher the drygoods owner, which would help robert townsend and more intelligent. it makes total sense the metal were saw how brutal the british
were new york city and the thugs they were in everything going on. i'm on the wrong side. i'm not going to be enough to say it. >> host: did washington meet any of the other secret six when it comes back into the city? >> guest: when i sat down with a local houstonians and experts, the thing that came to mind is definitely austin row. he said austin rose tavern. more than likely logically, yes. absolutely they've met before. the answer is yes. what i wanted to find out is robert thompson, did he meet robert thompson, the tortured soul who is forced into the british enforcers and in many respects. we can't identity as he did. however, his dad was above the page should they went to jail because of that. it would make sense to me at
when he would die, you might knock on the door because the houses here. hewitt to visit the promenade area. the towns and houses here. three blocks away. it might be wise to say he might go say hi to samuel thompson at one point he might have said colbert junior. i do know that moment and i've yet to have anybody revealed there was that moment. ironically, teddy roosevelt is diagonally across any love this stuff. so he did not know there's a patriot in his midst like robert thompson. there is an area called the landing, where there's nothing but water and that's the local legend worried that the house here, the planting here could easily have been done. robert is a master keeping things secret. he would never tell. it seems to be a strong rumor. if we couldn't prove it, we didn't write it.
>> host: today would we say that robert towne and mr. press? all his life. even the loss of 355 and stress of the war, just kind of his personality. >> guest: he's usually low-key guy, humble guy is a smart, bright guy. after the war when it trouble reconciling what he did in the war because he was a spy which according to that time wasn't looked up to as we've been over a few times. they be tough reconciling now. logically i had a hard time living up to his younger brothers of older brothers who were does the stars. >> host: a greater started all of them. >> guest: in the end. >> host: what is the lesson you like modern american readers? >> guest: how special america was at that time. much as patrick henry, paul revere, sam adams, george washington benjamin franklin. everyday americans fighting for the cause they believed in that
one at no credit, wanted no applause, but wanted to be respected. that is what they believe. just because the name is not forefront in her social studies class, doesn't mean they were vitally import. >> host: okay, brian kilmeade, terrific book. >> guest: thank you for your interest. appreciated. >> host: take care. >> that was "after words" which authors of the latest not fiction books are reviewed by journalists, public policy makers, legislators and others familiar with the material. ..