tv After Words CSPAN December 23, 2013 12:00am-1:01am EST
she never poked fun at other people, she was never crude or rude. i think she would want and i would want certainly for people to appreciate where they are in any particular moment and if it is in the middle of chaos in your family, find the goodness that's there. and she had an interesting quote once about when tragedy and things happen that is when you should really look for the humor because that is what will give you the strength to get through those moments and i think that is important to realize that we do have within us the power of strength we just need to call upon it and humor is one of the ways to do that. ..
>> up next on booktv, "after words" with guest host kim barker. propublica reporter and author of "the taliban shuffle." this week geraldo munoz and his book, "getting away with murder." in it the u.n. assistant secretary general reports on the international inquiry he led into the assassination of the former pakistani prime minister. the program's about an hour. >> host: welcome, ambassador munoz. it's a pleasure to be here with you today talking about your new book. i wanted to start with the obvious question, which is what made you decide to write the book? >> guest: well, it was an intense experience that i had in pakistan investigating the assassination of benazir bhutto, and immediately after i delivered the report to the secretary general, there was a
change in government in my country, in chile. i was the ambassador of chile to the united nations. i'm a political appointee, and a new government came in of the opposition, so i had free time, first. and second, there were a lot of publishing houses interested in this story behind the scenes, beyond the report. and i took some notes, and i decided that i could write something a bit more exciting than a dry report and tell the people of the united states, pakistan ask the world -- and the world what had transpired during the investigation which was as important as what we actually wrote in the report. that's what led me to do that. and then there was also a personal commitment to the story of benazir bhutto, because she had, in a sense, put her life at risk. and she knew that there were threats against her life. and nevertheless, there were
high values for her, the recovery of democracy in pakistan, the idea of making the radicalization in pakistan a thing of the past controlling the armed forces and the part of the civilian government. all of that was very close to my own experience because i was a dissident against a dictatorship this my own country for almost 20 years, and i was even underground, and i felt very close to that story of benazir bhutto, and that's why that was another motive to write it. >> host: can you talk some about how it deferred from the commission report that caused a huge controversy when it came out in pakistan a few years ago if. >> guest: right. it differs quite a bit in the sense that i go into the history of pakistan. in cases of political impunity, political assassinations, i go into the story of benazir bhutto and her family which is a story
unto itself a bit like the kennedys, the equivalent of the kennedys in pakistan with a lot of tragedy into it, by the way, because today out of that whole family, her father was killed by a dictator in the late '70s. and the two brothers, younger brothers of benazir bhutto also died violent deaths. the only person that survives is a sister who was not involved in politics. and when you look at the kennedys, it's something like that. so there were these elements that i wanted to bring to the fore that were by no means in the report. and also a reflection that is not in the report either about the relationship between the united states and pakistan. because the united states has been a critical actor in pakistan since the birth of pakistan in 1947 after the
partition between india and pakistan. so all of those elements make up good three-fourths of the book, and -- but there is one part, the assassination, the day of the assassination where we go, you know, hour by hour about what's going on with benazir bhutto, with her convoy, arriving to the political rally after which she was assassinated. all of that is based in the report, but it's a very small part compared to what the book is all about. >> host: right, right, right. no, i found that part particularly interesting, you know, getting every minute of what was happening. i did find it interesting, also, how you started the book. and i actually have to say i laughed out loud. having been there, in pakistan, during this entire time you start the book with it's january 2009. you're on vacation with your wife in chile, and you describe
getting an urgent, quote quote-unquote, call from the u.n. secretary-general's office about heading up this commission. and what made me laugh is the whole idea that it's an urgent call, and it's coming, you know, more than a year after the actual assassination of benazir bhutto. can you talk about the challenges of going in -- and then you didn't even end up going there until july. can you talk about the challenges of trying to investigate this so long after the fact? >> guest: uh-huh. well, it was not only a challenging investigation in the sense that it was, you know, no less than the assassination of a former prime minister -- >> host: right. >> guest: -- who was an international leader, but also this was a commission service that was not going to establish penal responsibilities about who committed the crime. it was going to establish the facts and the circumstances. so it was not going to be a tribunal. >> host: uh-huh. >> guest: which, obviously, meant that it didn't have the
force that a tribunal would have. we wouldn't be able to simply command testimonies from individuals. we would have to do it on a voluntary basis. and at the same time, i thought it was a very challenging situation because public opinion would expect that our report would point to the smoking gun about who did it. >> host: uh-huh. >> guest: so i thought it was sort of a loose situation. my president, when i asked for permission -- because i was a sitting ambassador. this was highly unusual that a sitting ambassador would be charged with such a high responsibility. my president who had been, actually, contacted by the widower of benazir bhutto so that there would be international support to this request of the investigation which turned into an official request by the time the widower
of benazir bhutto became president of pakistan said to me, yes, do it. this is good for chile, this speaks highly of our prestige and of our -- my own personal trajectory. be and going into pakistan it was very difficult because the leaking of information was one of the main obstacles that we had to our task. our task was, obviously, very -- [inaudible] and the minute we arrived i was -- in fact, as we were flying to islamabad, about to fly from jfk, i was told that my computer had been hacked. my chief of staff. and that perhaps we should suspend the trip to pakistan. and i said, no, we have to go. and on a stopover in dubai, the department of security and safety of the united nations recommended that i would not go out of the red zone of islamabad, the sort of safe zone
of islamabad -- >> host: i had no idea there was a red zone of islamabad. >> guest: there is a security zone. and i said, no, because i wanted to go a suburb of islam baz where benazir bhutto had been assassinated. i thought it was fundamental for us, for our commission to go and see the site and speak to police and speak to witnesses. so we ended up doing that, and in order to avoid the press from following us or anybody that might want us harm, we decided on a ploy putting in a program that we would go at 3:00 the next day, and we ended up going at 5 a.m. in a convoy. and it was all fine and good until we arrived there, and the police put -- located about, you know, two blocks a perimeter so that nobody could access the place where we were.
and, but we saw people, you know, like two blocks away, and we couldn't find out. and one of the commissioners was the former deputy police chief for ireland told me, you know, you know who they are? i said, i don't know, can't distinguish. they're journalists. >> host: god forbid. [laughter] >> guest: they are a bunch of journalists with cameras and with telephoto lenses, and somebody had tipped them off. and we thought that we had avoided any undue presence, and they were there. the leaking of information was constant. that was a tremendous challenge. and also a government that was very helpful at the beginning because the saw dari government -- zardari government had requested it, they received us quite warmly, they provided the logistic support, the security support, but as the promises went on and the commission began to investigate
in an independent fashion and asking hard questions and maybe stepping on some toes, we felt increasingly less welcome than at the beginning, and the cooperation was not full. even on the part of the government with. aside from the fact that we faced a lot of individuals in sectors that did not want the investigation and that, obviously, wanted harm for benazir bhutto, they wanted this -- [inaudible] killed. those sectors obviously were not happy about our presence in pakistan. >> host: what do you mean those sectors? can you expand on that a little bit? >> guest: well, benazir bhutto was particularly fearful of what she called the establishment constituted by the intelligence services, sectors of the high levels of the to military,
business leaders, some party leaders and elements of the bureaucracy. the powers that be, the de facto power structure of pakistan. and she particularly feared the intelligence services. and she had even identified in a letter to musharraf who at the time was the dictator, general musharraf, three individuals who she feared were very close to musharraf, subjects of musharraf that she feel would attack her or organize attacks against her. one was a former head of the isi, the major intelligence agency in pakistan. the other one was a serving chief of the intelligence bureau, another intelligence service of pakistan. and the third was a chief minister of punjab province. so that those individuals
evidently did not want us there. in fact, a former head of the isi whom she identified and feared because the individual had tried to unseat we are hen she was -- her when she was prime minister and had been behind it the first time benazir bhutto was prime minister in 1998, we wanted to interview him, and he rejected outright any contact with the commission. so we had a lot of those individuals. but beyond that, obviously, there was al-qaeda -- >> host: uh-huh. >> guest: and the pakistani taliban hated benazir bhutto for what she stood for. she was a leader of an islamic country. she had been already, and she was probably going to be again. second, she was western educated. she had gone to a catholic school, then come to radcliffe, to harvard and then to oxford,
so she was western educated. she spoke better english than you err due. she got into politics only after her father was assassinated, was happeninged by the dick -- hanged by the dictatorship in the '70s. other than that she was accused of being a shia by the sunni radicals. all of this aside from the fact that she was seen as very close to the united states made her a target by all those individuals. and these individuals, obviously, were a threat to us. so there was an issue of security of our own that was always very present. we were, when we went into pakistan, in and out during the investigation, we stayed at a security house, not at a hotel. we had forbidden any place where we could stay that would have public access. so the issue of security was very much in our minds and in
the minds of people around us. >> host: right. i want to go back to something that you had mentioned which is the idea that benazir was aware of the threat against her life and had expressed fear over those threats and had even written a letter naming people before she was assassinated. yet, you know, i observed her coming when she came home, her first rally which was also attacked by bombers. she was out from behind her bulletproof screen, you know, not abiding by security precautions, you know, in the weeks leading up to her death she was out and not going behind a bulletproof screen. and you could argue that on the very day that this happened, she was coming out of her sunroof and waving at the crowds. so how do you balance that, the whole idea that, like, you know, was she afraid for her life if she was behaving like that? did she talk to folks about that contradiction? >> guest: we did.
and there's a typical contradiction of a political leader, a political leader at a time of elections. she felt that, first, she needed to go back to pakistan because he had been nine years in this voluntary exile, and she felt that she needed to go back in order to recuperate democracy. at the time musharraf was a dictator, he attacked the head of the supreme court, he had declared martial law, he -- i mean, suicide bombings were increasing. instability was, unfortunately, reigning over pakistan. and she felt that she was part of the answer to regain stability and democracy and rule of law. so that that was a first commitment that she had. she was very aware of the threats against her, and a lot
of information, intelligence information had been passed on to her. what happened, though, musharraf simply passed on information to her and then washed his hands and didn't do anything about it except passing on the information. she was actually a bit pessimistic about what could transpire when she arrived in pakistan. there's an anecdote that i put in the book about a flight over two months before going back to pakistan in october of 2007. she flies to answer helm together with -- [inaudible] and his wife who was the u.s. ambassador to afghanistan and the u.s. ambassador to the united nations. they were going on in this private plane, and as they're flying, a stewardess offers benazir bhutto some
freshly-baked cookies, and she says, no, no, no, i'm trying to lose weight, i'm on a diet. and then she calls the steward december and says, you know, what the heck, give me the cookies, i'll be dead in two months any hour. so this is an example of black humor. i think it indicated to her that she was perfectly aware of the threat that she was going to face, and she risked herself by coming out in the sunroof or escape hatch of vehicle because she was containing. she felt that her duty was to contain. the duty of the government to protect her. it wasn't her duty to recollect herself. -- protect herself. she was a former prime minister, she was entitled to protection on part of the state of pakistan. it was the duty of musharraf to provide that protection so that she felt that if she didn't go out, if she didn't press the flesh as the politicians say, she wouldn't get the votes for
an electoral victory at the end of the year. and we, throughout the investigation process, we discovered a letter sent by musharraf to provincial heads to provide security which is the top security that you could have to other former prime ministers who were associates of, political associates of musharraf, but not to benazir bhutto. in other words, there was, you know, purposeful exclusion of benazir bhutto from the type of top protection, security protection that she deserved. be that's an element that has to be taken into account. but she risked herself, without a doubt, because she felt that she needed to be close to the people. i oseah. without a doubt, not as part of what is going on in this part of has been written after the first attack on her condé when she
first got back. >> i like to loan out the the fact is that everybody knew that she has been a part of this. she knew all of this between her and her situation and they were all part of this situation will improve law and hundred 45 individuals who came to the funeral procession and they all came yes, they all came. i thank you for your procession and i thank you for your participation which is part of this. >> thank you. one of the interesting situations that was part of that. that separately in botched this deliberation.
can you talk about the role of the police in the investigation, particularly the police chief in what had been their? and i guess, i can talk about that. and i think it's part of this situation that i am a family part of because i am part of this thread but i think you in this case, it is part of this situation we did a cover at head because they'd were a part of this situation and that sankyo for the situation that became of this unfortunate this elation of love and corelle and leaping on the beach and like mike no one ibm part of that mike biodynamics here at oman of
problem in front of the finance and non-and i know one scene had eliminated the scotland yard, i was toilet part of this horrific experience of event to visit the nazi german soldiers and mike ian now, and wanted to come back to the situation when he was right there back then i wanted to have a good time. it was part of the spread and so who ordered that, i would not even i can't guess can guess that i can do in this is that once you get my cardio, my story among and you get this comment
my partner had a focus to be on part of it. and later on, daddy is has davis has been in the habit of belief in at the hospice of these for it to resuscitate the situation and she was gone. and this is part of why the doctor in charge. she asked permission to do do and not have the barrier than three times that she asked me times those doctors denied this request. all i have to say as that abuts the medical person and i do believe that you was going to abide by that. otherwise there was an attitude that was deliberate. in fact, when there was a german
team who julep blends in the investigation of the case. they were going to have a part of this and then me part of this is going to cellular that it was possible and the government wants you to be a part of that this is part of our history it is part of our lives and we love the fact that there is compassion for what happened during worldwide scale. we are part of this together and we are going to take that two of hands and we are going to do the best we can surrounding the other nation and the wishes of
love a confession that flooded us from here to 1942. we are going to always do the best we can and we cannot cannot stop we cannot solve in stop in the never well stop on what has happened with the situation that has gone forth. we can never quit interfering and keeping the a record of everything that is holy to this situation. we bless you and we thank you for watching that in the name of the longform and public affairs program from nation and its program, c-span who is created
by cable television. >> i i thank you. we have had that. i pair it with lights and yes, i call upon you and i call upon neil so that i could surmise that there is that i was part of this saturation of the reason. the fact is that i doubt very much that i would never believe this so you received his instructions and my family was in omaha at the time and they received instructions disallowed and we were quaker family before we knew it. so this shows to the hypothesis
of the deliberate. we were going to have to deliberate advantage of what we found out. >> soul you have the police had him having the advantage of things and immediately you will have met and there is a press conference saying this is all sewn up. and that's why her head had been why would they do that if they are not involved. what is your explanation as to why this is a part of of the life. >> that is a good question. and perhaps simply and immediately not having a circulation to his own facility. but in the end, that is because the people and the streets were
irate. it was not part of his belief. and it was late for an idea that backfired in the end. his job it was pleasure to have that for you to have that. only matt for instance granted it is very interesting because we have had to in the investigation of i don't have been praying there was no firm evidence that anyone ever took care of this. and we totally take responsibility for this on the basis of the pain.
and the pay of what they are giving to the deliberate move them out of the government turned many people have families. and i am going to take the opportunity to tell you that the we have had the respect of the government. michele obama stood out and he said hello to the crowds and she was a response at the head that was very much the idea that she was a victim and that she was was going to go forth with the situation and she could have been protected pay there was a plot summation of the elite force him to go to bed to ask made fun of them matter.
haven't read a bed that she would ever have anything except during to go further then just the police protection that would need and i do not want that cannot thank you her although there is a lot of dissension among dp ball and i want to thank you for this to investigation that would not be a complication of it. there are a lot of important situations going on right now. >> we are going to take a quick break and then we will be right back. >> hello. select your podcast that you
>> who is seeking the depends upon this stage who were made to the security alleged depends upon relationship that was going at that time. she sent an e-mail home that achieving those only in that she wants to be cowed. which is not very nice accurate showtime. about it is because she made her film that is then secured the team minions around her. i think that any responsibility has to be established by the court and sued a court who establishes the guilty verdict. but i believe that it is amoral
and physical responsibility. we cannot handle this without her input. i would like saying that the united states promote her return for her return. the taliban were helping boost to the troops in afghanistan. and they would not do anything to superior themselves to the situation and i appreciate that have been on this situation. there is a single situation onto which we have been a part of that situation i came up with a
metaphor been named of a village in spain was once again find healing of this globe the native language is going to be homeless and prilosec and they are going to stick to the story am not even a part of this. i do believe that there is a private citizen not muslims take part in paint. not everyone should have a part in the pain want to send the nation of the pakistani
situation and i do believe that there are parts of this information that we can take and this is a part of the political responsibility of the guests involved. alex is going to back me up and regretted to that. they are going to try to understand the want of inexcusable omissions. and because of that the united states are not going to have a lot of substance on the personal level. there are a lot of political activist who is going to find out what is going on and that is left on the it is an important
thing to find out who is going to have a tuition break that. >> as far as your employee being charged? >> it is very interesting as far as the opinion guys and i am going to open the case and first of all, we have indicted the local police and are indictments of the local staff and i do believe that they are going to be girls that are going to be involved and these girls night, foreignness and one was part of this situation situation situation was going to going to have to grasp these girls that we hire for our captioning systems are going to be for my when they have another been in trouble. i have never been a part of that and i think that as they go
through this cooler they are going to be be part of the situation sigil is something horrendous estimates and. >> a corporate suit to get a t-bone steak steak one of the major figures in the book is a gag you must a security chief and he was of the chief and he was the son of your trainer backrest on a penny talked about interactions with dramatic change. >> well, as the minister of interior at the time of our investigation owns the room
division of money. and the vehicle if it merely damaged by that point the situation and her thing that came to google he is intimately familiar whom we imported through this mayor and a and a situation that must have a biowhich is why why we have a hostile situation. that pertained to the unhappy relationship that was part of this and was inexcusable for an entourage had belonged to an
interview that had of the army. because we requested access to this and then thinking within the intelligence services and it is an important situation rests to be considered for this page. you assume that the bouquet have always taken a stand on the phone to phone with this i will give you my view it to the views
of the wisconsin state and the head of the army on the wisconsin state side of the situation that is going to be without this situation will occur in durham armed policeman who is going to be hired to see if iran is the situation. it is the situation of this had my life was an outdoors girl with her dad and when it came down to it the next guy that was
a girl who had a special-needs boy and a daughter my ex-girlfriend want would have wanted them to enjoy the outdoors so they came out and came fishing and they had u.s. profession to go on my denzil and both sobbing as i really love the girl he's as i really love the buildings dating dishy xaverian eyes and compassionate woman and i do not want them to not work out because the meaning i homeported she understands and i hope that i get what i want which is a big fat baby of awesomeness this is not right i do not like those there is the
basis of humanity that is repeated up on these cress fryers of what is going on right now between me and my cousins. it is simply the total lack of responsibility in what you have going on here. did i believe that you can inspire me in iowa next year we're going to pharaohs and i'm really sorry that you had to experience the shadow foreign it was not a fun done to you on number and understood what the hell was going on and even though my dad.
>> rumbling murmur as safe as they had used a gem that an unnamed of his cuban a club can be avoided with less than they relate to have to know what working in meals of time lamenting tones. this handelman and the memo and other unknown convictions but i knew that my god he grandfather would would only tell me how
they all went to the colleagues that we supported. in the airport from the va if you don't have it this. there was a known midwestern diplomatic liaison that i was going for the minister mentioned. i've been on a van morrison versus morrison versus u.s. and arafat were supposed identify the caucus and circumstances had
says that there is hunched friend and going along with is number one on the microburst and at him as if he ishad happened to me, and he tells me that is exactly what happened to me with the same guy. well, that diplomatic liaison we never saw again when we came back to pakistan. so these were the little issues that we had constantly. that made it even more challenging to do an investigation that was already complex. >> host: were you careful when you were using your phones? did you use different phones? >> guest: we were very careful
about using phones, and we had a special -- after they hacked my e-mail, we -- i i never used that account again. and we used some encrypted accounts. >> host: and the nsa was probably watching that. >> guest: probably. [laughter] well, i told, you know, i told my chief of staff who was very upset about when this happened, i said to him, look, you probably are thinking that the bad guys in act stand did this -- pakistan did this. it could have been many other people that are doing this, that want to listen about what's going on. i said, so don't worry, i said. here there will be a lot of interested parties, even other states, i said, that might want to know what's going on. so let us not worry excessively because otherwise we will immobilize ourselves in the process of the investigation, and i don't want that. there are risks, yes. we have to minimize the risks,
we have to have good protection. but aside from that, let's just do things as if this were as normal an investigation as possible. >> host: how many days total did you spend on pakistan -- in pakistan on those three trips? >> guest: oh, i don't know. difficult to say. fifteen days or so. in addition to that, we went to other countries. we went to england, we went to united arab emirates. i interviewed musharraf in, near philadelphia of all places. >> host: uh-huh. what did he tell you? >> guest: well, i mean, sort of the official story. one of the things that i asked him was there ever, was there ever a deal, why were you so mad about benazir bhutto when she came back? and he said there was no deal, you know? 200% sure there was no deal. and that the deal, there are various versions. one was that, evidently, that
benazir bhutto could go back, they would lift the accusations of corruption against her and her husband, they would allow her to run without impediments of her becoming again prime minister because there had been a legal impediment passed in congress. and at the same time, she would support musharraf to be reelected president so long as he shed his uniform. in other words, he went into retirement. he would not be the head of the army and president. and the idea was that he would be president, she would be prime minister. all of that was never closed, and he confirmed that. and he was very adamant about her not coming back before the election. and, in fact, he had told benazir that why wouldn't they celebrate new year's in pakistan, that she should come back in new year's.
thus, she would not contain. and she felt on the contrary that she had to be there. >> host: uh-huh. >> guest: you had to press the flesh, you had to be in contact with the people. the only way to insure electoral victory is if you contain. you cannot win election if you're in dubai or london. so she felt that despite the fact that there budget -- wasn't a full, guaranteed deal between the two, she had to go back. and that enraged musharraf. i mean, he was very, very upset about the fact that he felt that the sort of terms of the deal, almost deal had been violated by her going back. and that's what came very clearly through that, through that interview. not much more because it was, there was one thing that i thought was very interesting because i fought a dictatorship
in my own country when i was a dissident against a dictatorship. and i heard many times particularly after we recuperated democracy and he was put on trial and he began to confront his own security head and began to say, look, i had nothing -- i was the president, you know? i didn't see the day-to-day running of the government, so i don't know who was torturing. this wasn't my responsibility. i was president. it was the other guys that, you know? how m a i -- how am i going to know if shall be was tortured? well, the same thing was told to me by musharraf. it was so much in this my find, pin they, i was the president, i didn't know what the security forces were doing, i didn't know what even the prime minister was doing. i was the president, i was above will. they couldn't control what was going on in the country.
that was something that was very stuck in my mind. many dictators try to give you that line to declare themselves innocent of what transpires under their, under their watch. >> host: uh-huh. so, basically, you're on the ground though in pakistan for maybe 15 days. and one of the most difficult things i found reporting in pakistan was trying to sort truth from fiction, right? i mean, i remember going to the hometown of the main, the surviving bomber in mumbai, and i'd been told that this was the hometown of the survivingr on thing that i've found is going from the hometown of the surviving bomber and i've been told that this this was the hometown listed above being on calle. the individual whose prime minister of pakistan says that no, this is not the place that
you at lincoln way and then everyone who is a person that sent this. they send a fake family. have you established facts in an environment like that. think of the environment ministry of. >> we actually talked to a lot of people. and we confront head stories of the various rebuts in the what is true or not. and there was of course, there were some trepidation of what became to pass and what were not considered to be legitimate stories. i want you to know that there are a lot of love times and harney claims that we went through that cannot be be on god. and we have to offer our best bug untrained judgment and this
includes an investigation testing phase people. this includes those who live convenience centers. it is going to think and let when he went to visit the sick and dad is a man who was very touched by this action. but he never gave himself to them. until i do not believe in what is going on in the reinvestigation of that. there is is only one so is a much avelino but that but that we have an inner source and 11 that is to blame of the this situation. it is clear that this is a
problem in a coalition that has stood up to this and say hello to the crowd. seconds before the assassination. via hollywood was supposed to put them there came into play for their dad's army. then he had some of the most important people in this them that have been killed in the shootout up. she once called sharif to offer condolences and i said no. and she said after i say hello, what else should i say in regards to those elkins pred minimized and will not say a word, my much of it because i am