tv Book Discussion on The Boom CSPAN May 25, 2014 8:30am-9:16am EDT
mr. gold spoke at the san antonio book festival in texas for about 45 minutes. [inaudible conversations] >> they lost to a certain team that was owned by the former ceo that would be the oklahoma city founder. that is a very sensitive topic in this town, russell. i think it was 18 or 19. >> i'm from philadelphia. very difficult for me to read about that. >> are we all sat? welcome, one and all. i am robert rivard. it is my distinct pleasure to be the moderator for a conversation with russell gold, senior editor reporter for "the wall street journal" based in texas. important for me and important for all of you, this is something of a homecoming because russell gold was a
reporter in a 1996 and as editor of the san antonio press, we hired russell and he came to san antonio and had a wonderful three or four year run as reporter here. met his wife and got married in san antonio, worked in our capital in austin for a while before moving onto the major leagues in the big-time. he has written a terrific book about cracking, "the boom." i've seen a few books and none of them catch my attention until the sun. i want to get you talking publicly about it. i know a lot of people are passionate about cracking because right in our backyard is the eagle for a shale plant, so people on all sides of the issue will have to contribute to the conversation. we are being filled by c-span. when you get to the q&a, someone in the audience will move around with the acrophobia and i'll ask
you to hold the question until you have a microphone in front of you. if people feel we are going on too long between the two of us and he just can't wait to ask your question, start raising your arm and i will realize it's time to go. so here you are, energy reporter for "the wall street journal" and you cover the deep horizon oil spill in the polls for which he won an award in your finalist is a pulitzer for that. you are covering energy and that means covering fracking and then you get a telephone call from your parents. i you tell us about that telephone call it what it was about. it's too good of a story that too sure. >> i started covering fracking in 2003. i've been doing this about 10 years. i went on my first job in 2003. so by 2008 or so i've been to several. i sewer department of north of fort worth have watched it slowly start to expand around
the southwest. i got a phone call from my mother and she said you know the land we own with some friends a few hours outside of philadelphia, a company came by and they want to lease it. they want to drill a well there. this is preposterous. i had grown up we can appear in summer vacations a to this plan. it's 100 acres, incredibly rocky. in the middle of what used to be dairy farms. this was the area the farmers didn't want so we were able to buy them achieve. for a city kid like myself, this is where you got touch with nature. so all of a sudden i was forced to step out of the journalist because the question she asked me what should we do it? should release the land? is this good? i've covered this for five years. i knew all the players come and do the numbers. if the crunch a lot of numbers. all of a sudden she was asking this really incredibly important
question, which was not just should we do it, but if we do it, is this going to help? this is going to make a world a please? is this going to destroy the land? in some ways i've struggled with them. now all of a sudden i had to can run them on a very personal level. it took me a while to stop and think about how do i answer that. what i finally did, i was thinking a lot about that in nature that made made recently to new mexico, ted turner's ranch. dutiful spread of land. and he was allowing for natural gas drilling. we have written about all the various efforts he had undertaken to keep the land pristine and beautiful. so i said you know, look. it's going to be intrusive. it's going to be noisy. it's going to be industrial. but there are ways to do it. i think natural gas can really
help this change we are going through. energy transformation. because we really are. we are going through a period three. relieve your babies to do things, coal, nuclear, oil commitment to this new future, which is more gas in my renewables. i think natural gas is part of god's that will put us on a path to where we want to be. do your best to write a lease so it inconveniences you as little as possible. if you ask me whether you should do it, you probably should. that is the answer i gave. >> there were some money on the table. >> u.s. it's unbelievable. this is when people well are throwing around money to grab as many as they could. yet there was money involved and i said i'm covering this for the "washington journal." i don't want to know how much and i don't want to know what you do with the money.
keep me away from that. that they were talking about $4000 an acre. they co-owned with five or six other couples, but this is what happened in the marsalis, pennsylvania, north dakota. when the land then came, they talk very real money, especially a very few acres. it becomes difficult to resist. >> host: before we believe the family farm in the endless mountains where he spent his weekends, did the well prove out or provider was to try? >> guest: that is the amazing thing about shale is the wells are all good. that night that all be money makers. you might spend too much, but if you are in shale rock and eagerly well, you'll get oil and gas. they bulldozed an acre, acre and a half towards the front of the property. they put industrial facilities
they are. it will ultimately hold a wells. they've drilled two so far. said the good news is the water is fine, the air is fine. you can still go up there. you can canoe on this pond and enjoy yourself. that is the good news. it did not destroy anything. the bad news is when i asked my parents, i said one thing you need to do is make sure the well is built right. so-called chesapeake announced how are you making sure the well will stand up for 20, 30, 40, 50 years? my father was transferred to oklahoma city and then tucson regional office in pittsburgh and never found out. that is a concern. i read about that in the book. we do in the united states trail 100 a day. we need to make sure it's been done right because that is the legacy we can't afford. if we are not drilling is right that we are leaving behind wells
that can make an impact aquifers, that is the legacy will look back on with a lot of regret instead of excitement that we did something right. >> host: let's take a personal story and move it over to the eagles heard shale plates. there is an extraordinary tension between the incredible amount of money flowed into south texas. lots of families like yours have been suddenly showered with money. a lot of wealthy people have become a lot wealthier. tens of thousands of jobs, jet jobs have been created. people are enormously concerned about the environment. these files take 2.5 million gallons of water nac where water is scarce, particularly a drought. a lot of concern about re- injecting contaminated water into the ground, service flow conditions, which you just mentioned in those fleeting to ground pollution and also south texas has been changed forever
in terms of the small-town culture about which i don't want to romanticize, it is also a very impoverished area, so many people would say we will take their jobs, thank you. all booms lead to a biased eventually. what you think the legacy is? >> guest: last time i was down there maybe a year or so ago when i was working for the san antonio express news the mid-90s, drove around a lot in south texas. you go there now and you don't recognize them. they're not the same town anymore. it is as if a new town is and camps in 24 hour but dolls have been placed out on top of it. i'm not quite sure where the old town was. one of the real signatures at this boom is how quickly it is smooth. very subdued about that, but there's also some bad. and we were 10 years into this
boom before regulators and the companies themselves started really asking tough questions. what exactly is going on with the air missions? is it healthy? what about all the water we are using? is inside this wastewater we are in checking causing earthquakes? these are really important questions in one of the as we were so far into the boom before we started asking questions. the good news is when you start looking at these there are answers. there are solutions and wasted a better and write. very simple. earthquakes. when i lived in san antonio, there were no earthquakes in san antonio. he just didn't feel them. now it's a fairly regular occurrence. small ones. >> did you know that when you go in get a license to drill an injection while, you don't have to ask or prove you're not near a fault.
that would seem to be a pretty commonsense thing. basically are putting a lot of water down, lubricating falls so they slip and cause earthquakes. they would eventually, maybe in 10,000 years. they are speaking not of breakdown. dissimulate commonsense things that can be done. another perfect example. you brought up water. in south texas and west texas covered these are water served areas. eva birdwell takes for 5 million gallons of water, fresh water. want to use briny water? when i eat salty water? is a simple answer when you ask the industry. the answer is we never did so he worked at the chemistry for fresh water. there's absolutely no reason you can't do with briny water. the good news is the industry is starting to move in that direction. slowly, but they are starting. one of the things i would say is
yes, there's a huge amount of love, a lot of jobs, and lot of good news about this. not just that, but when you talk about the people first, we import so much less oil than we ever used to. lots of security benefits accruing to the united states. at the same time, but states have been asked the question one of hand-me-downs to make sure the wells are safe in the boom does not leave the legacy we don't want it to. the speed that we will talk about the global energy economy in a few minutes. i want to stay on some of these environmental issues because we live in a low regulatory state, which is both what attracts business here and also what allows it is a quiz self regulate itself. for the texas railroad should, which most but may not realize has much to do with railroads. it is the same entity that is charged with incentivizing business to operate and then to watch it. consequently you have elizabeth
ames jones and her famous drillbit vitro speech that is given here in san antonio which didn't sound like a regulator which made it. i wonder whether you can trust the industry to do these things you are talking about or whether we ask for another environmental catastrophe. maybe not the deepwater rising, the left to their own devices, the profit motive will always turn the environmental and safety concerns. >> you bring up the deepwater rising, which is this deepwater. comment the bp bridge in the gulf of mexico which for weeks gushed oil into the gulf of mexico. i covered that extensively that the same federal agency charged with raising money by the government of wasting off some of these blocks in the gulf of mexico was also been charged with regulating it. you have to cheerleader and a
regulator under the same roof and that is what we have in texas and north dakota. the federal government made the right decision. they slip inside. you cannot have a regulator and cheerleader under the same roof. and i haven't heard that in texas. your question implies an answer and i would agree that it is really tough to be a good hard-nosed regulator when you're institutionally charged with promoting more oil and gas. >> so 10 years ago, when everyone started talking about subsidizing anything horizontal drilling in context with that, what we heard about his gas. extraordinary gas fields that were found. as things took off, the price of gas plummeted. >> they found to match. they were too successful. they found too much gas they didn't know what to do with it. >> they found oil and that's the
real boot. the >> what about caspian the transitional life faso feel that it could be called that. certainly a lot cleaner than coal unless you leak a lot of methane into the environment. but it is not really be used that way we thought it was going to be used in the beginning or is there? >> beat is the way we thought it was going to be used. it is taking a big bite out of cool. there are a number of places on the east coast or the area is significantly cleaner because they shut down coal plants and putting gas plants. new york city is a perfect example. but we are also in the united states, if you remember the kyoto protocols, and the nation will get together and make pledges to lower carbon emissions. the united states didn't sign it. we met our protocol pledges because gas is so much better and it is so much less carbon
dioxide than cool. there have clearly been said that global benefits. i actually think the real challenge and opportunity becomes with renewables. when you start talking about adding renewables than most people would agree with above to go to a place where we have 20%, 30% renewables on the grid, maybe more on a regular basis. renewables, can't they come and go with the sun is not shining company needs something to that amount. and it turns out natural gas is much better than coal, much better than nuclear. you can begin to envision a world where you have a lot of renewables and natural gas to back it up but we are producing really inexpensively the kind of energy that society expects with a lot fewer emissions. there's some challenges out there. methane leakage is a very legitimate issue. that is one of the things i want to talk about is the energy boom
is an incredible opportunity for jobs, and opportunity to transform the country, but it's also an opportunity for us to think the word we want to be in 20 or 30 years? what kind of economy and energy do we want to have? we can use it all right now. we can start exporting, running tracks on natural gas. we cannot petrochemicals and do other things with natural gas. for we are not heaven a conversation. we don't have that much gas. what do we want to do and what we want to be in 20 or 30 years? you've read something else interesting. i've traveled around south texas and seeing how the cities had been transformed in pennsylvania and north dakota as well and i've also been to nigeria. i firmly believe if we are going to use the oil and gas that this country does, americans use more per capita than anyone else in the world, that we have a
responsibility to do it as well as we can commit to use the gas efficiently, to not leave behind and environmental legacy. you go to a place like west africa where we imported a trillion dollars worth of oil over the decades. the legacy is left behind is not very good at all. there's corruption. there's environmental waste. the country is not in great shape. the >> are those u.s. multinationals to the drilling? >> shows very pick there. silly really think when you start talking about producing more in the u.s. and north dakota for texas, is a great opportunity. let's figure out how to do this right. if we're going to use the wheel, let's do it in the most tired mentally -- the least impact way possible. it is a challenge, but from a traveling and talking to engineers and people in the community, i absolutely think we
are up the challenge. >> i asked him to publish interview we did about some thing to do better great deal of post-9/11 in the united states, but particularly in texas and that is reaching energy independence and whether or not fracking and shale drilling was going to be the sort of miracle to that that allowed us to reduce our dependence on the middle east on countries like venezuela where we don't have good relations. has that? >> no, we still import a lot of oil. we import a lot less than they used to. five years ago i would say we're very much dependent. we went independent because we had to do things around the world to make sure the flow of oil kept coming. whether with alliances away fleas somewhere, we are now in a position where we import so much less that we can pick and choose.
venezuela is doing something they don't like. we can buy from saudi. we don't need saudi in venezuela and nigeria and angola. we are now independent because we have options and that is a huge change from where we were five or 10 years ago. >> i want to talk about to dominate characters in your boat. one, george mitchell, the father of fracking, how many people know much about george mitchell of the room? passed away last year, but also gave away more money for graphically than any american except facebook founder mark zetterberg. so an enormously complicated guy, an interesting character and secondly sheldon mclendon who was the founder of chesapeake energy and that guy that owned the oklahoma city vendor that i mention and many
other things and he was also enormously complicated. those are the kinds of larger-than-life characters that oil and gas, the energy world seems to produce. number one, and his u.k. to meet george mitchell and get to know him and also operate the claimant you tell us about this to people. >> i interviewed george mitchell to her three times before he died. i got to know him quite well. george pinchot is one of those incredibly fascinating tours. he was born in galveston, son of an immigrant, grew up very, very poor and just pulled himself out. the classic american story grows up in my passed away was not just incredibly wealthy, but it could credible amounts of money away. what's fascinating is two things. first of all this is a guy who believed in science.
he was coming into his own at a time when houston was so full of wildcatters who would throw. they said i want five, peru before you go drilling. he was one of the first two modernity really. he was the guy who also said look, i know there's gas in the shell country and shale and i'm going to let my company chose a couple wells a year. doesn't matter how much. doesn't matter if it's a failure. failing to find. she did that for 16 years until finally he had the breakthrough. starts in 1982, until 1998. just never minded if the wells were dug, which often they were. he just believed in it. he was stubborn. the other fascinating thing was you don't think of an oilman is someone who is interested in
sustainability. 1970s after it got rich, his interests are to change, he made buckminster fuller, the midcentury futurist and becomes incredibly interested in spaceship earth and how can we survive with a 5 billion people on the planet with 7 million people on the planet and this becomes his succession. he is one of the largest contributors about sustainability, but never took god into renewable energy. probably a man of his time because he just wasn't ready for prime time yet. >> could argue it is. so he sells off the company, proves that can be done, so that this comes via 2001. read about the same time you have the job done in oklahoma city, aubrey mcclendon from a family who produce governors and senators and came from the non-wealthy side of that family.
he starts off in me as what's called the land man. the land and as someone who talks to the individuals to get them to lease the land in his incredibly good at it. he is just one of the most interesting people you'll ever meet. when you're talking to him, he makes you feel like you're the most interesting person he's ever met. incredibly charismatic. he has this vision. he sees what is going on in fort worth. he says not just tonight going to go into that in chesapeake which he bankrupted a couple years before the bad debt in louisiana, but i am going to go all in. you have to imagine, this is somebody who in 2001 the company had not seen. seven, eight years later the company has 15 million acres. that is the size of kentucky. not just that, but he had
written this idea led to it that every well that chesapeake drills to get the little 2.5% splicing. by the time you get to 2008, 2009 that chesapeake is drilling more wells than any other company in the world. he probably owned by oil and natural gas himself than any other american since rockefeller . >> is one seller of the world. >> 70 pages of one void had appetites. he wanted more. i talked to his former partner. how would you describe? he just said moore. he always wanted more. it wasn't enough to have a wine cellar. it wasn't enough he was interested in antique boats. i went where he hit 15 antique motor boats, houses in the bahamas in hawaii and more and more and more and that eventually brings him down because you start -- she's got to pay to drill them.
that became $500 million a year, a billion dollars a year. he's got to borrow billions of dollars to fund it and eventually in 2012 the collapses. what is amazing as he gets booted out of the come to me he cofound. he's given no credit. he creates this energy that we talk about, gets booted out. he goes and creates his own come to me, brings in the former ceo of exxon and the come and is now worth about $5 billion. >> so he's back. >> this is his big go around. >> it's amazing. >> i think we will see someone in the back with a microphone will help us out with people who want to ask questions and talk. >> there we go. >> would anyone in the audience care to join us?
>> right. [inaudible] >> absolutely. that is a great point. a lot of people think when you fracas rocca will cause cracks and let some of the chemicals get into the aquifers. that is a modern shale wells, that just does not happen. the shale is so far down. what does happen and what can happen is if you don't know the beltway, if you put the pipe down, if you don't make sure the cement a solid, you can have some of this brainy water, chemicals, some of the naturally occurring material that is down there flowing up the outside. it will flow of businesses sort of basic physics. it is going to look for the area to go. that is critically important.
i have a whole chapter about one of the legends of hydraulic fracturing according to petroleum engineers who in the 1970s created this very simple instrument that would go down for a while and look for a slate temperature variation to find hairline fractures in this event because the appellate tapes. it is amazing when you talk about wells. what could cement have to do with this? first of all, this is high-tech cement. the second of it was the cause of cement and deepwater rising. you absolutely have to get it right. this is one of the situations where you don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish. >> is quite a bit in this topic and its more technical than you would find. let's go back to the back. there's a couple people that have a question. >> great characters involved. dr. claude curt is an absolute wonderful character. in his 80s he became a little bit of a youtube sensation when
his grandson recorded a video of him dancing with his wife. he is quite a turn and he is worth maybe that reading about. >> could you comment on why fracking might mean to mexico and how fast i could have been? >> you know, it is interesting the beaufort shale does not look at borders. there's a lot of shale potential in mexico. you know, as you might know come over 70, 80 years, mexico had a very strict rule that foreign oil companies couldn't go when. to everyone's surprise, to my surprise, they changed that six months ago or so. >> it is changing. a big vote in may will decide a lot about whether it goes forward. >> there is huge potential there.
there's certainly no reason geologically it can't happen. the rocks are there. it's just and intended issue. communities are reluctant. >> do we have anyone in your from lewis energy? we have our own billionaire here in san antonio, rob lewis. and my understanding is they are already at work south of the border on some spots in the eagle for your i think it's coming and a lot of people in san antonio or wondering how it will change our economy if mexico does open a. we have a question back your i think. you can stay back there for a minute. with several people i want to ask questions. >> can you speak a little bit or talk a little bit about what you know but the department of energy and the role that they played in this? and case fatality to the fact of how many other sites have later become superfund sites?
>> well, as far as i know there are no superfund sites associated with fracking itself. so let me approach this in two ways. the department of energy act in the 1970s funded a lot of the basic work that eventually became fracking and also the ability to drill wells straight down and turn horizontally. that was fun about a lot of public money, and probably would not have happened or least not have happened if it had not been for that federal investment. there's clearly a collaboration over the decades between public money and private money that made this happen. they are making along with epa, taking a lot of steps to try to cut down on methane leakage to make it safer.
you know, they need to come like with anything else, they can't take their eye off the ball. there's a tendency and bears, sometimes a welcome everything is going great, we can move on. one of the things that i really learned in talking to, for instance, cities near fort worth, smaller towns, is that the cities that tend t to do bet and 10 of the best experience with fracking are the ones that made a set of rules, change them a year later, update them, brought in something new, constantly state and fall. if the department of energy on the federal level, if the federal government adopts that i think things will, i mean, i hope that answers your question. [inaudible] >> but will there be? >> we need the microphone if you're going to talk more. >> i can't look into the future. >> my question was, of the
nonrelated fracking issues so far related to the department of energy over the course of let's say the last 50 years, how many of those sites are not superfund sites? because my idea or my concern is that the past is somewhat of an indication of what the future will bring. >> sure, sure. when you look at the century-old history of oil and gas exploration in the united states, i can't think of a super fun site that is related to oil and gas drilling in the united states. >> can we get another question? let's have the microphone up here, please. >> your job is just to run around hard and fast. >> hello. my question is, where are we with exporting natural gas, the houston? >> on our way. about seven or eight permits have been approved, maybe nine at this point. the amount of permits we've approved along the gulf coast,
won the oregon, one in maryland i believe, if that is all use we would be the second largest exporter in the world behind qatar. will they all get to build? probably not. would all be used all the time? probably not. but we are put on the way to being a large exporter of gas in the united states. >> aren't we building a facility to compress natural gas? it was going to be to import natural gas now it is switched and to be to export. >> conventional wisdom of years ago was we need to import lots of natural gas because we weren't going to be able to provide it all. they built a bunch of facilitiefacilitie facilities along the ghost coast to import natural gas and now they have all been or all in the process of being flipped over so we can export. the next thing is exporting oil. that could come as well. >> with the question back there. >> this is kind of a stupid question may be. >> well, thank you.
>> i'm an expert at that. peak oil, i forget the guy's name, cupboard or something. in san antonio, he predicted the end -- it was a san antonio bank, good history. i recent talk to somebody and you don't become he said see, there's a problem with peak oil. that was not true because with plenty of oil now with shale. i said i don't think so. you're going off to the side, mopping up what's left over. >> hubbard had a very simple prediction. he said if you look at all of the wells were drilling and was available, that we're going to keep increasing, producing oil in the united states and then write about 1972, 73 star going into a long decline. he was actually write angel 2008. thathen something interesting happened. we started to reverse that. we started to grow production again. we've gone all.
all the discussion of peak oil seems to be over right now. we have more oil and gas we know what to do with, reminds me of the old quote from the shake from saudi arabia who said the stone age didn't end because of a lack of stone. and the oil age will not end because of a lack of oil. >> question right here. >> thank you. first, i'm going to give you a free blog because i read your article this morning in "the wall street journal" and i'm going to recommend that to anyone, his article is more in depth about what could be done to make fracking more safe and not have the catastrophes we are talking about. my other question is, your personal prediction that you may see for the price of natural gas, and at what price -- >> that's dangerous, to ask the report to make a prediction
about the future price of oil and gas. i'll give it my best. >> and at what price would you see another resurgence from everything starting over again? because all of a sudden, there would be a financial incentive to produce more. >> the companies that drill don't like the price is right now. talking about natural gas. they want to maybe five, six, $7. consumers, we like and we willing to pay maybe $4, maybe five. we will be in a bill at about six bucks. probably a little higher than it is right now at the good news is we're not seeing those 10, 12-dollar spiked hikes on natural gas. on oil, the global market, $100 at an oil right now we do know with a couple of years. the more interesting question there is do we think, to think oil prices are more likely to go down rather than up? and i think, my senses five were looking at lower oil price over
the next few years as iraq starts to come back online. we've got oil everywhere. peak oil is not in the conversation anymore. we have plenty of will, but this is a cyclical business. you get complacent, all of a sudden we'll be -- you never have too much oil, and when you do you start using more of it because you don't have enough of it anymore. >> i want to give russell's story in "the wall street journal" and online a plug. it's called how to make fracking safer, three things. stop leaks be to stop methane leaks. we talked about better cementing. the one thing we didn't talk about the to import is before we drill in the well, the water and air testing. there's been so much time and energy that's been spent arguing about did a company cause this water to go bad? if for every well and we tested
the water and everywhere and we would have those arguments. we would know. it would either be a lawsuit or that wouldn't be. the other benefit of that is we actually don't know that much about the environment, a watercooled around the country, the air quality. if you start 100 times a day taking detailed scientific reading of that we would have a great database and that would allow us to ask smart questions about our environment around it. >> with five minutes left. i know with more questions. >> great audience. lots of questions. >> i've got a question with any common. in 2012, we are supposed to start a subdivision. i do solar, geothermal, all that stuff. 20 acres. the mayor comes to us on january 2012 is supposed to start. one acre solar panel, the
community grid, blah, blah, blah. you can start, he said. why can we start? we are out of water. they are 60 feet below normal now. that was in 12. it's gone farther. >> you would let you go because there wasn't enough water to sustain that development? >> yes, sir. at this point out of thing is just the issue of quality but quantity. we are in a 40% cut in the united states and texas. the millions of gallons it takes to crack are going down the hole. pardon the pun, but they are gone. at this point you got the lower colorado river authority, the rice farmers are nothing to know right -- no water for rice. accommodation of the fracking but also this particular project or all of the oil and gas takes tremendous amounts of water. the refinery, the fracking, every single thing, electric generation --
>> ask a question because we are down to less couple of minutes. >> what, in my opinion, is your take on this? the epa abandoned the assessment back in the '90s. they give it to the states. what is -- >> all make a simple observation. when you're talking about different groups competing for the same water in south texas, oil and gas industry has money to outspend everyone. we've seen this before. they can outspend agriculture. that is going to present an issue. it's not a fair fight between different people competing. clearly all these different groups, whether it's the residential or agriculture or oil and gas, but all are legitimate reasons. when you have one group that is so much money that they can outspend and get what it wants, that does create a problem. i think you have a very valid point. >> we have time for one more question. right here. >> just a quick question about
sustainability. you mentioned that we have plenty of oil and gas right now. do you think we should have, break this up into near-term, midterm and long-term? it seems to me as population grows exponentially we will be going to all the oil and gas can even the stuff we haven't discovered yet but you think we should talk about sustainability in different terms? >> absolutely. when you have a lot of oil and gas as we do right now, this is the perfect time to talk about where you want to be in 20 years? how much renewable energy, what type of funding? one of the reasons why as we've added more and more renewables to the grid, prices of electricity have gone up is because with so much in natural gas. you look in a place like germany or spain they didn't have a natural gas and it didn't caution, you very large price increases and it's been a problem. now you industry moving out of germany because of that.
as it might not seem obvious, but when a lot of oil and natural gas, that's the perfect time to start thinking about the future. you don't want to wait until you're running out. ev do it now when you have clearly a couple decades cushion in 20 years we could be in a place where it's a lot better and a lot healthier in terms of energy production, or energy consumption. so i would really encourage everyone to start to think about that because i think that's one of the big takeaways of the boom is this is a real prize to how we're going to use it. how to use it to get where we want to be. >> that's a perfect no different to a close, so help me in thanking russell gold for coming to san antonio. [applause] >> terrific to get back together with you again and we'll see you upstairs where you are signing books. [inaudible conversations]