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tv   Community Action Partnership Convention Simone Campbell Remarks  CSPAN  September 20, 2014 1:30pm-2:27pm EDT

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his cell as well. when kelley found out that he had committed suicide, this time at kelley was back in the states and no longer in nürnberg and he was shocked. he did not see him as a suicide risk. and he sought is a grand theatrical statement of defiance against the americans and the allied authorities. and he was able to go out the way he wanted and he made an impression on kelley and may have led kelley down the same road years later. and 12 years later, kelley was a very troubled man, overburdened by work and an alcoholic. marriage in trouble, emotional problems and explicit temper.
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he felt that the world was way too much on him and there's no way to know for sure, but i believe that kelley some level of consciousness and how hermann goring had made this grand suicidal statement the day before he was to be hanged and went out of his way and that is what kelley decided to do even to the point of using same poisonous agent. and even standing on the staircase where the family was assembled below and that, to me, really hearken back to hermann goring. very public manner of suicide and i think his work had a great deal of significance in the
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world of psychiatry and the study of why people do what they do. and it started a big controversy. he published a book called 22 cells and nürnberg where he recounted his experiences with the nazi criminals and he gave his findings that he thought these men were not mentally ill, they didn't have any kind of disorder. and it's something that many people did not want to hear. and it was a message that among the people who were in nürnberg with kelley did not agree with this message. there was a psychologist at work alongside him for several months named gustav gilbert who took a completely different interpretation of the same psychological assessments and he did believe that there was a
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common thread of psychosis that ran through many of the nazi criminals and couldn't count for this. and the nazi en inkblot test wee some of the most studied. and there was a lot of back-and-forth with some researchers falling into the kelley cam, believing that these were normal results that we could not distinguish from ministers or teachers or other groups and then those who did find or are able to find significance. it's gone back and forth for a long time in the most recent study which came out in the late 1990s came down on the kelley side. not significant similarities
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among these men were differences between the nazi's and there is a whole field on genocide study that studies be a phenomenons and they have identified many of the various steps in which genocide happens and i think that we should pay strong attention to that and halt that as early as possible before men like hermann goring have a chance to commit mass murder. >> coming up next from st. paul, minnesota, with help of our cable partner contacts, we talk with carol connolly, poet laureate. >> the fact that it happens all this doesn't make it easier. i turned a corner and without warning i stand before a mirror and there it is.
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my mothers face staring back at me in disbelief. the face i once swore that i would never have. >> host: i'm here with carol connolly, the poet laureate of minnesota. what is it to be a poet laureate of minnesota? >> guest: well, there was a bill that passed that was where poet laureate and many states have one. and the governor, even though it cost money because it goes through a commission, and there is definitely not accost anyone. but then a friend of mine said that we should have a poet laureate. and so that is how hard i had to work to get a poet laureate. >> host: what did they do?
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>> guest: i think you can do all sorts of things with their laureate ship. and the thing that i do this since i was appointed in 2007, i orchestrate or organize a writer's event once a month in st. paul heard some writers with new books and we are getting great big audiences which is a lot. but i do this seriously. >> can you talk about the literary community in st. paul? >> guest: i think we have a vibrant literary community in st. paul and minneapolis. st. paul poetry is very revered and many people are getting published and then we have
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people like the guy down the street that have decided to write a few poems and they turn out to be really good and that is how people get to have a book. it is a very support of art in st. paul, i would say, and in minneapolis. i didn't start writing until i was 40 years old. and it was by pure accident. most poets don't decide when they are little kids that i will think i will be a poet. so i have been keeping a journal. when i had been raising my family i kept a journal and i decided that i was going to go to a literary center and take a class about how to write a novel or put all this stuff into a book. and so someone recommended that i see a writer who had a big family just like mine and she had three children. i had seven children. so her situation was to take a
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class and that's how i started. >> host: what to do you before you were poet? >> guest: i worked for wonder woman magazine in new york and then i work for the st. paul pioneer press. and all through that i was writing poetry and then i was able to give more to the art of poetry in the art of other people. >> host: what type of poetry do you most like to write? >> guest: revenge poetry. it's sort of writing about people that bother you or things that bother you. but i try to write about every day things and daily occurrences in what is good and bad. am of my poetry is quite political because i have spent a lot of time in politics throughout my whole life. >> host: what was your driving force in politics?
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women rights issues? >> host: yes, i was very active in campaigning at the time of the vietnam war. and he is a fine poet and in many ways he was an inspiration for me that he could do all that he was doing and still write poems. >> host: how have the politics change since eugene mccarthy's time reign. >> guest: i think they've gone and parents. i think the previous individual, all kinds of things resulted in this and he was also the one that thought that we should have a poet laureate. so we sort of talk about it
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up-and-down. >> host: i want to hear little bit about your revenge poetry. >> guest: meeting at 6:00 o'clock at the new french café. we will share a cup of consommé. his smile is as wide as the english channel. but a hungry woman searching for substance could drown in a cup of this at 6:00 o'clock and a french café. >> host: to the mayor ask you to write that? >> guest: i have forgotten what the first home was that i wrote and that was part of my being a poet laureate. and the second one he asked about if i was able to write a poem for the budget. and so i did. >> host: let's hear it.
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>> guest: august 14 for mayor chris coleman. the sun rises and the dramatist our daily life begins. we ride bicycles and take cars and buses and we worry for our daughters the tattoo their ankles and we gory for their sons who pierce their ears. we play the roles we have chosen and what can we say that has not been sent? externals compassion and this endless war hawks are stage. we spent $200,000 every minute to sustain the government in iraq while iraqi officials disappear from up on vacations. there is no vacation for us. we pull ourselves together and we learned new lines on the run
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and we become the hometown heroes and heroes we will forever revere. later back in our old neighborhood, no matter how far up until we move, the old neighborhood as a lifeboat and a thunderstorm has uprooted an ancient tree and nothing stays the same. the old tree barricades to block and we pull over at the curb and stopped in wheat and then see against all odds the backyard garden safe and pushing. we are lucky to be alive. the sun begins to set and soon the moon lights the hills of our city and we find that we possess the resolve that we need to do what must be done to stabilize neighborhoods of our beloved city that is the foundation of our freedom. >> host: when i listen to that, i think of learning something about st. paul. can you talk a little bit about
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that? >> guest: i was trying to impart the budget deficit which was weak at the time. we still have a great city and a great future in the city. and that was written in 2007. >> host: you mentioned the bridge guest yes, yes, yeah and it was in minneapolis, that's like a different world. >> host: what was been the best part of being a poet laureate. >> guest: it's really a lovely thing and i'm grateful and for me it was a lifetime appointment . and i'm and old girl by now. >> host: thank you for joining us. >> guest: it was a pleasure to meet you. >> for more information on booktv's recent visit to
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booktv's location minnesota, st. paul, go to c-span.org/local content. >> this is booktv, television for serious readers. here's a look at our primetime lineup. coming up at 7:00 p.m., ken burns looks at franklin the roosevelt. and after that, david horwitz and a plan to be the last. and sheryl sandberg on american families and american securities at 9:00 o'clock. and then the significance of life on earth earth at 10:00 p.m. 11:00 p.m. continues the primetime programming with a debate on the war in the constitution. that happens tonight on c-span2's booktv. >> host: we continue this tour
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for booktv. we are joined by isaac gewirtz. what do you do? >> host: i am curator of the henry w. and albert a. berg book collection here at the berg collection of english literature in american literature. and i work in st. mark's library. and i got a doctorate in science history and that led to me being here. >> host: how long have you been as part of the new york library? >> guest: i have been a curator since september 2000. >> host: you brought some things out to show us that you have in the collection. >> guest: the berg collection is 300 to 400 authors come of this is what i like to call the tip
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of the bird, so to speak. here we have the only surviving manuscript that was done in this man's lifetime, but it's in the hand of his secretary and personal assistant. and this has the highest authority directly from his own manuscript and you can see changes and differences between the text is presented here in the transcriptions and mistakes that were made in the first edition that were perpetuated throughout the centuries. in the sauna, all, all of these who had been destroyed will be resurrected on the day of judgment and it was only in the
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20th century. he was a great poet in the 17th century. and one who used weight and philosophical inquiries. and in order to create highly formal and complex poetry. and we have a wonderful dickens collection. all of the first edition and what is really remarkable is the performance copies and this was the first one that he ever did in the first reading that he ever gave was in 1853. and this is the prompt copy for
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a christmas carol in 1853 and this was not yet in existence and he said about creating this so that people could listen to this over the period of an hour. and so he put them in this and you can see that he sometimes rewrote passages. because if he would have deleted something, it was referred to later as part of this and that is what you see here. and you also see where pages were pasted together and you can see posters stamps and it has
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been broken over many years. and here we have a photo of him taken in new york and this is the last group that was taken in the winter of 1867 and 1868 and -- >> host: out of the library get this material? >> guest: the dickens material, it came to the collection through the purchase of the two greatest collection untracked collection in the 20th century of english and american literature and one was a great
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publishing magnate in cincinnati and a friend of the irish literary renaissance in so he had some of the another great collector who was a founder of general electric. and so these came from there collection. but i do want to mention one thing. this belonged to him as well. this is his inkwell and this is his ivory letter opener which was given to him by regina hoge or. and she had it inscribed and he always put that on everything. and this is one of the plans and
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the story has it that dickens had trained and not to be terribly crass come about how much is this worth? >> guest: we don't have to discuss prices. i don't like to think of it in terms of financial value. and especially with the dickens collection. and the library has insurance. and this is the first volume to the white house and we have the vast majority here.
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and she was one of the great pioneers of the modernist novel in the novel was published in 1927 and it's not meant to be, she could do that kind of thing and she did with the private press that she ran with her husband. and here you can see she always drew a blue crayon line so she could write notes to herself. so in this particular case she has her couple of diary entries. through march 9, 1926, she rides that i am writing exactly for my
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other books and she said it's always before and also most of her works are informal productions. and she was writing about her childhood and adolescence that she had. >> doctor, is this available for everyone? or are we getting a special tour? >> guest: the question is here for researchers who study this. >> would one have to apply to see the manuscript?
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>> manuscripts we don't even bring out for research because we have it on microfilm and we use this for reading groups to the public for displays and that is how the general public gets access to these materials. >> host: would you like to see these manuscripts that we just saw online so that everyone can see that imax. >> yes, there is a website which does contain those images and here is his chair, charles dickens chair and his calendar
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sets to the day that he died on june 9. and the story goes that when the collection open in october 1940, mayor laguardia was invited. but they had it is a tradition that the mayor who was a rather robust gentlemen, supposing that that was the only non-original part of this. >> that is not a documented story. >> that was what is fascinating in the tradition. >> you for showing me your collection. >> it is my pleasure. >> this week, the national book
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foundation announced their long list for the national book award for nonfiction. the list will be shortened to five nominees next month in preparation for the announcement of the winner on november 19 in new york city. this year's national book award long list titles for nonfiction are roz chast, "can't we talk about something more pleasant", "john demos, "the heathen school", a story of hope and the trail and the urge of the early republic. >> this is a story of faith. to help to understand our history. we don't like to think much about failure. american history is supposed to be a success story and most if you look at it, it is not. and yet, i think it is important what we can learn and there have been plenty of them in american history. i was actually looking for a
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chance to write about something that was not another success story. >> also nominated for this year's national book award for nonfiction is anand gopal, "no good men among the living", america, the taliban, and the war through afghan eyes. and then we have nigel hamilton, "the mantle of command". fdr at work on a 1941 to 1942. plus, walter isaacson, "the innovators", how geniuses and geeks created the digital revolution. >> i wanted to look at how real people invented a computer and internet and how innovation really happens in this age. including those like okay to say who made that type of person and so the book is not just about cingular people but collaboration and one of the
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things i discovered in doing this book is that real innovation comes not just from great things but from great leaders it also includes john lahr, "tennessee williams", evan osnos, "age of ambition", chasing fortune and faith in the new china and matthew stewart, "nature's god". the heretical origin of the american republic. >> let me just lay my cards out on the table. i think that many have been kidnapped by religious rights and in my view, and i will try to justify this later, the christian nation is something worse than the interpretation and i see this as a betrayal of the american revolution and i think it represents precisely the kind of thing that thomas jefferson and thomas paine and others were fighting against. >> the final two title selected for the long list for nonfiction
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are when paris went dark, edward o. wilson, "the meaning of human existence" and ronald rosbottom, "when paris went dark." that is a look at this years nonfiction books. he sure to pay attention on november 19. >> coming up next from the museum in washington dc, jim freeman accounts his involvement with the 18 year investigation of the unabomber case and the eventual arrest of the theodore kaczynski. this is next on booktv. [inaudible conversations]
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[inaudible conversations] ..
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nick, ladies and gentlemen. i am chairman and ceo of the national law enforcement officers memorial fund and we welcome you today to witness to history investigating the unabomber. our witness to history event generally sponsored by our friends from target who join us in the front row as well as in partnership today with the newseum. i will turn things over in a
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moment for moderation of this event but it is a glorious day outside and if you want to spend an hour or two with us that is extra special and i thank you for taking time to join us. you are in for a fascinating discussion in a moment. i want to thank our friends from c-span to cover many of these witness to history events who are with us today and they will be sharing this on air over the coming weeks. for those who may not be familiar with the national law enforcement officers memorial fund, our organization, a little background, we were formed in 1984 by a former new york city police officer and police legend. he actually is the author of the legislation to establish the national law enforcement officers memorial which was the first major initiative. we dedicated that memorial in 1991. it is a couple blocks from here in judiciary square, the 400
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block of east timor's west washington and on walls of that memorial are the names of 20,267 federal, state, local, dry land territorial law enforcement professionals who have given their lives in the line of duty. our latest initiative is to establish a national law enforcement museum. we have been working on this since 2000 when congress authorized our organization to build the first-ever national law-enforcement museum. we have been working on it ever since and that museum will open a few years from now in a place called judiciary square, right across the street from the national memorial but in any way serve museum already exists. we have collected 17,000 artifacts. fascinating artifacts of american law enforcement history that will help us tell that story. we have also produced a number of educational and public
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programming events of which witness to history is part of that. this afternoon is a good example. we bring to get their law-enforcement professionals, experts who were involved in some of the most famous criminal cases in american history. today we bring together a group of experts who worked so diligently and for so long run the unabomber investigation, one of the longest man hunts in american law enforcement history and i want to thank once again our friends from target for sponsoring today's event and all of our witness to history events and thought like to turn the program over to john maynard who will moderate the program. >> thank you and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen and those of you watching on c-span. welcome to the newseum tv studio, and the home of the unabomber's cabinet of. i hope you saw that. we are pleased to partner with
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the national law enforcement museum. and elusive criminal targeted airlines and computer stores, could injured 23 others. the fbi branded him the unabomber. the fbi was flummoxed. the manifest was written by the unabomber his real name was ted kaczynski and sent to various publications through the turning point. before that, the investigation can be institutional pride, and individual egos. we talked to three fbi agents banned by fbi director louis free by cutting through the cumbersome procedures of the investigation and cutting free of bureaucratic restraints. the new book "unabomber," how the fbi broke its own rules to
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capture the terrorist ted kaczynski details the fbi's investigation for the unabomber and how these three worked together to bring him back. jim -- jim freeman was special agent in charge of the multi agency unabomber investigation and strategic management and the executive level. he began his career as a special agent with the fbi in 1964, was in los angeles and miami and in 1993 was assigned special agent in charge of the san francisco division. following the unabomber investigation he returned from the fbi in 1996, retired from the fbi in 1996 and joined charles schwab, as senior vp of global security. donald max noel served as investigator on the unabomber task force before ultimately becoming supervisor of an expanded task force and ultimately concentrating on montana. he served as fbi agent for 30 years and worked on numerous
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high-profile investigations including the weather underground, the disappearance of jimmy hoffa. retired from the fbi in 1999. terry turchie directed the unabomber federal task force between 1994, and 1998. and on aberrational level following the unabomber case, became inspector and led the task force in looking for the olympic bomber eric root of. in 1999 he was named deputy existent of the counter terrorism division of the fbi and traveled extensively overseas to investigate international terrorism in the middle east and in the former soviet union. i should note in the book jim wright's that kerri is the only fbi agent who got into a fight with a russian spy. u.s. c b agent to the ground on a brooklyn subway platform in 1986. please welcome our panel. [applause] >> if you are tweeting,@newseum
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and a national enforcement handle, let's start with you. you are listed as co-authors. the book is told from your perspective. tell us how the book came together. what was your main objective for the book? >> thank you for your kind comments. dozens of fbi agents, the u.s. postal service worked together for a task force for the last three years. and all work went into such a project and the book came out similarly to how the investigation came about the last three years. and the only volunteer effort
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for the unabom task force after 15 years. i volunteered because i was in -- where the task force is set up. i want to take a shot at ted kaczynski. the investigation required a strategic plan, and terry turchie was already in san francisco as a supervisor of national intelligence matters in the powell also agency. and wanted to shake it up. and shake it up to do something different. definitely at that time, a wall in the national television service and the division for various reasons, and i wanted to
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take advantage of that, a strategic plan and it came together the same way. and the three of us represent a unique perspective where the case was managed and we managed in in that manner. we didn't want to write a book that stood on its own as our own creation. and the description of the investigation was very complex and over the years had not been appropriately described. and we centered on this investigation. >> tell us about your reaction on this? >> that is a pretty nice place to be.
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that is across the street from stanford and i was settled for the rest of my career, at least i thought, until jim had this bizarre idea of solving the unabomber so i got a call one day from the assistant special agent in charge of counterintelligence program in san francisco. he said i have a couple questions to ask you. how do you feel about coming up to the city in taking over the unabomber task force? jim is putting together a different structure and is interested in doing that and my response was that is funny but thanks for the offer but no thanks. so there was a pause and he said i actually not joking. then i didn't know what to say. everybody tried to stay away from the corridor in the san francisco office with signs that said unabomber. no one wanted to go near it there. i think i would need a lot of time to close up everything down here and get up there.
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how much time do you need? probably at least a month. i thought i would get a couple weeks and he said how about a couple of hours? nothing went right from there until i met jim freeman in the office and realized he was very serious and maybe we had a chance to do things differently. >> your enrollment. >> i was already on the task force and i saw jim's taking over the task force and reconfiguring and bringing terry turchie in as an opportunity to leave the task force. i submitted a memorandum to that effect, please let me go back and do what i was doing before which was organized crime, asian organized crime work and unfortunately terry and jim had other ideas and convinced me i needed to say.
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you went and saw jim freeman and he said i know he was off but he is not going. >> maybe for our younger visitors are people not familiar with the case, give us a brief overview of the unabomber. what were some of his targets and motives? >> that is what made it so difficult to identify a suspect because the unabomber became very clear early on had to be a lone wolf. he was not talking to anyone or else something would have come to light, 16, 17 years. his early targets were against university professors, graduate students, bombs sent through the mail to specific professors as well as bombs placed in the corridor outside the computer room at the university of utah and that was repeated in other locations as well, univ. of california at berkeley. and then there was early on, his
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third bombing was against an american airlines flight, a mail bomb was placed with a rigged altimeter, barometer was used to explode at a certain altitude, i didn't ignite a fire but didn't explode. it saved the lives of all the people in their plain but even so the pilot recognized smoke was coming in to the cabin and there was an emergency landing saving people's lives. so airlines and universities were the early targets. there is a propensity for acronyms so we did you and for university and a for aircraft and bomb so it became unabom and the unabomber is on moniker that stuck. >> i will ask you again, for both of you, when did you realize this was a case you had to invest in the normal protocol and the subtitle of the book is how the fbi broke its own rules?
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go through those rules. >> we actually had a meeting, one of the first things he wanted was a strategy, i wasn't clear on what he wanted but wanted it out of the box and really something we hadn't tried before and really made the impression we want to solve this case, we were not doing this through some process, babysit until someone else comes along. we are going to stay until we do this. i went away, talk to match and had a number of meetings over the next week and just about everybody that was already on the unabomber task force and talks about what they thought our failings were in terms of what we had overlooked before, but it became apparent we needed different organization and structure and needed all the things that come with that so at
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the end of the week i gave him a paper that essentially said here's what i think we should do based on everything i have talked to and their input. we get a more out issue. lot of people did want to get off of the unabomber task force. they worked hard and been very long time and they were tired. to deal with that it was kind of symbol. i recommended that we have people choose a partner. when you watch tv everyone has a partner but that is not the way it is in real life. whether it is and fbi agents for postal inspector, how people get together, choose a partner and you will be with this person for a long long time. that way when you have a down day, your partner will have an up day and you guys are more creative working together like this so that was the biggest thing we did to make a difference in the internal mechanism of how things elaborate but even more complicated things made several
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suggestions. first, we need to have a media component in our strategy, so we actively use the media to get to the public and eventually we would have things and a specific message to tell the public. secondly we needed a significant analytical capability integrated into the investigation until that time we should simply didn't have and third, we needed to deal with the issue of profiling. again you probably watched shows light criminal minds and that type of thing but it doesn't exactly happen in real life the way it happens on tv or a couple of hours of movies. we need to look differently so we chose different people to work with us on the profiling and we will get into that in a while but those are the essence of what we pass along to jim. the sum total of any of the agents we already have the told me during these interviews. >> you mention media, a natural question for me to ask, as we were discussing earlier the fbi does traditionally play it close
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to the vest when it comes to the media. what was the advantage in this case for you to shift strategy is to be more media friendly? >> we knew right away that we needed to have a consistent message to take to the public. and we also had to have a consistent version. so we decided to recommend to jim that he be our spokesperson. fbi headquarters and others, but because he would always be sitting and have the latest information we were going to be getting from the investigation. and we wanted to give a consistent message to the public. over time, what we ended up doing 1994-1996, long before we got the manifesto in 1995 was we started going to the public with one message and that message was when you think about the unabomber think about chicago
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1978-1980. then think about salt lake city because between 1980 and 1982 or 1983 that seemed to be the focus of where there was a connection for the unabomber and after that time frame from 1985 and on, think of the san francisco bay area, put those three things together and eventually, i will defer to max to talk about the composite. that became a significant part of that message. chicago, salt lake and the san francisco bay area and the composite and by 1995 we got the manifesto. when all those pieces came together we went back to the public through jim with that message, we got what we were looking for and got back to that composite because it is a fascinating story. >> the composite is the iconic picture of the van, the hooded sweat shirt, the sunglasses. >> early on in the
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investigation, you do a lot of monotonous tasks and reviewing the file. we didn't have a lot of leaks and reviewing the file and trying to determine if there were things that hadn't been done in the past, i was reviewing the file with regard to you -- utah related bombings and there was one in 1987 at a computer company in salt lake city and was the only time the individual known as the unabomber was ever seen and he was seen by an employee, very close, within three feet of him looking at him out the window as he placed a bomb beside her left front tire of her car. she was interviewed afterwards by a police artist, an artist was brought in to do a composite and she did the composite. when i reviewed the file, there was something unusual. there were five different composites by that same artist and the same witness on five different days. it was unusual for me to see that.
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i found this particular witness and went and interviewed her and asked her why and she said he wasn't capturing what i was trying to tell him. he kept getting the shape of the face wrong and some other things. she was very adamant. i said how can you be so adamant about that? she said i just reviewed my notes. i said what notes? there are no notes in the file from you. cheese at i always wondered why they never came back and got my notes from me. they instructed me the day i signed to write down everything i signed the police would come back and no one came back so she brought her notes and she was very consistent with what she said. jim had just finished the case supervising the sac a kidnapping case in san francisco, the kidnapping of a young woman named paula class who was snatched out of her bed room at a slumber party, taken, raped and killed. they used a foreign 6 artist
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named jeannie berlin to do the artist concept of the person who kills, kidnapped and killed her. it eventually led to the identification of a guy named richard allen davis and richard allen davis if you took his mug shot and closed jeannie boylston's drying side by side they exact. i am not being negative but most police artist's concept in the past have been used talk to a witness and give the mobile full of noses and a book full of types of faces and years and they put these things together and i refer to those as mr. potato head drawings. they capture the features of a person but not really the person. genie was an artist first. you was a tremendous artist and she could interview a person and draw a real lifelike picture of who the person was describing. so jim said find her. go get genie and see if we could do this.
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we took her to utah, interviewed genie for something like four hours to get a composite and everyone thinks the life of an fbi agent sometimes is very interesting and they do exciting things and for a period of time i got the privilege of playing with her 3-year-old on the living room floor and watching the lion king and on tv. the artist's concept that resulted was a great artist's concept and if you have the opportunity to look at the two concepts it is just remarkable after seven years with tammy could describe and what genie could draw and you take ted kaczynski's official photograph and put it beside it, you see exactly the jaw line, the jutting chin that she described. that was a very unique thing and we did it in black-and-white. we didn't want people focusing on yellow hair because we were
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afraid he might be wearing a wig and so forth. what we found later is he was wearing a yellow wig and planting yellow hairs in bombs to throw us off track when he didn't have blonde hair. there were all kinds of interesting things throughout the case like that. >> you mention the manifesto and i want to get to that so give us a sense in the final years of the pressure you felt to catch this guy. i was reminded reading the book, 1993 was the oklahoma city bombing and first question, levels, was that the unabomber, talk a little bit about the pressure that you felt. >> one of the saddest things that happens is when you are all assembled and think you have a great plan and someone else gets killed and that happened to us in 1995 and it happened to us in 1994. while all of this was coming together and we thought we were
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making a difference. you can see the morales of people start to dip. you go home every night, we commuted from where we live in east bay to san francisco and while everyone else chose the part we became partners and we kept each other's more route up because in those moments on those days of course people back here because it is their job, but media as its own spin, the families and victims of the families are on the phone or want to talk to you, and we sat down with people and what do you say? i remember dr. charles epstein lived in to be run and he was the unabomber victim in 1993 and i remember john conway, the first case agent, took me to meet them and we sat in the living room and the apprehension of going in there, one of the first family's i ever met when i
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started doing this and we sat down. it was not at all what i expected and from that point on this is what got us through the day. they sat there and they were more worried about me and whether i was getting enough sleep than they were about what had happened to him. asmac sand i and gin dealt with these families and victims over the years they were all that way. in the darkest days when you expect it, they will be pretty upset, they would be sitting down with you and saying you got to make sure you stay focused and stay rested and i know we have confidence in use of it is hard to convey how you feel, but i tell you i know how i think everybody feels to date that is looking at the world and responsible for being on the frontlines of counterterrorism, you worry a lot, you work long hours, it is very difficult to put it down because we used to

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