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tv   Book TV  CSPAN  December 7, 2014 10:00pm-12:01am EST

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notwithstanding -- they traded the selling block for the ghetto notwithstanding all of that there was a sense of hope in your book that there were people that were liberal minded and people who would say of code they wanted to do the right thing. ..
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antennas are you a loaded two the wave of racial violence of the 1980s and the rise in the '90s i last job was called the north rises again where i tell a story of devil patrick being elected and re- elected in massachusetts and that tells a story of northerners as barack obama support where if you look at the voting stats how they voted for and against barack obama and mike northerners voted against barack obama i think you can find some hope for the north for there you can find hope for the nation. >> host: on that hopeful note, to be continued.
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>> that was "after words," booktv signature program in which authors of the latest nonfiction books are interviewed by journalists, public policy makers and others familiar with their material. "after words" airs every week another booktv at 10 p.m. on saturday, 12 and 9 p.m. on sunday and 12 a.m. on monday. and you can also watch "after words" online. go to booktv.org and click on "after words" in the book tv series and topics listed on the upper right side of the page. deifies african-americans on how to deal with the police and the criminal justice system in the united states. this is about one hour and 15 minutes.
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good afternoon, everyone. i am a state representative but here tonight i am here to talk about one of the most timely and best books i've ever had the privilege to read from a friend of mine as well as first of all nick i would like to ask you before i start asking questions because i really would like to do that, and what i would really like everyone to understand is that these are not just authors. we are talking to someone about someone has authored 12 books who has shared.
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[applause] >> 1992. 1992 to 2014 come he's continued to write very relevant issues. and to my left is the attorney who has always been very interested in what this thing called justice for everyone means. she's an attorney and she's also been an associate judge in court, but more importantly, she has advocated for younger people come older people come and they call it just plain families. i'm going to ask the first question on this book what do you mean i'm going to ask you
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first. >> thank you all for being here this evening. this is something so exciting. in the form of the book coming out and doing so while received time. now this is really the process up when young people are engaging with police officers. it happens every single day. and the idea was to give guidance. i practiced law in excess of 18 years and there were common
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patterns that i saw in my practice. and particularly the young folks to help them understand that there is the constitution. that is what the book is aimed at doing is giving some sort of a guide. >> the interesting part of the book for me is not just the navigation but maybe how the families navigate and survive. what is the best lesson in the book for the survival of families that navigate in the justice system. >> what became clear to me
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working with this woman is to make sure that at every step of the process, you are not giving away rights, that you're not implicating yourself that you're not doing things that may be actually kind of second nature to you when you get caught up in the system but in depth being very detrimental. and so, people don't really think that much about the family portion of it that when a young male from a young female can anyone gets caught up in the system, basically everybody and their families swept into this drama and a lot of times the family members are not always on the same page in terms of what they should or shouldn't be doing to help or they could be doing to hurt the now defended. so i think it's important for family members. so basically it's important for everybody that is in some kind
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of a contact with young people to know a lot of these things because that gives many examples but there's one in particular that i remember where the police knock on some young person store. they think that it is a robbery or something, so his sister opens the door and they see the sister and ask do you know this person in the picture. it's a picture of her brother wearing a coat. and i think that they have gotten some footage or something maybe from a camera. she's like yeah that's my brother. he he warned that a coat today. and that is the first thing that she blurted out. and of course, it's not necessarily wise if you're doing this kind of stuff if you do not have an attorney present, but an attorney is usually not going to get involved to further down the process. these are kind of things that you need to know early on before you have some counsel at your
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side. so yes, everybody that might be involved in this young person's life needs these lessons because anybody could kind of be guilty of holding the system drag him into something that perhaps he wasn't even guilty of. >> if you educate a family, they would educate the children. in particular, we talk about them and you mentioned in the buck, what do you do when a young person is by themselves, it's 11:30 at night and they are stopped in at a traffic violation or at least what is it that you would tell people driving at night? >> particularly troublesome is driving while black.
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we have all heard those instances. i was actually going to meet with the young man who lived approximately 40 miles out. i was meeting with him late because his religious lived around the corner. he said i need you to help my nephew. he got charged with a drug case. okay. not a problem. so then the more you talk to him, i can't meet with you into a:30. i will come by your house. it's fine. i know it's family. it's not a problem. it became later and later. so finally, he called me. i'm on my way. i'm on ie 20. okay. wonderful. i will be sitting here waiting on you for not that i have anything else to do with my life. [laughter]
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so then they called in to see the police behind me. and he's on ie 20 in an area that gets it one of traffic stops. okay. well i'm going to stay on the phone with you. but we talk with you. so the police walk up to the car he was on the window, and it is immediately where are you going? i'm going to meet with my attorney. we need permission to search your car. my attorney says you can't have permission to search the car. don't hang up the phone. why are you telling them to ping up the phone, don't take up the
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phone. give up the phone. so, ultimately i jump in the car i was very fearful for the case. and the pretext for this stuff is that he had a cracked windshield. and we are fortunate that the judge is here and he knows that is the beginning process being able to get close to the vehicle and try to identify some notion of criminal activity. i don't know if it was because he said he was on the phone with his attorney who they ultimately told him to hang up on or, which is why i really got in the car and went out. at this point it is 10:30 at night. i was very much afraid. but he ended up with the ticket and he didn't give them permission to stop and search the vehicle. he stopped his equal.
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he was compliant with the officers. when they asked for his license and registration, he gave it to us. it's important that's important for this. it is following the law. what you don't have to do is allow them to search your vehicle. what you don't have to do is explain your activities beyond a simple yes or no answer. you don't have have to get additional commentary. and so many young people make the mistake of implementing and incriminating themselves in a crime because they think that they can talk themselves out of something when you're not very conversant with the constitutional rights and don't understand this, they don't have an obligation to incriminate themselves or die situation of
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the picture. the best response would have been because she is not under an obligation to answer the officers question and the manner in which they were inquiring. so, the best answer in the situation would have been why do you want to know. or you really need to come back when my parents are home and that sort of thing. but we are compliant people. we don't want the police involved in our lives. succumbing we want to interact and get him gone as quickly as possible. and if we don't respond to their stimulus, then the interaction is going to be longer and that makes us uncomfortable naturally. all of us as we are driving down the highway and have been stopped a couple of times.
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i don't want to interact with them, but neither am i going to come down the overreaching and it happens every single day. >> i have learned recently more and more people are being stopped on this idea of the tinted windows. that is the probable cause of 2013 and 2014. we have to stop to check for 32%. what do you tell parents about young people with the tinted windows even if they are bright manufacturers. are you educating parents in regards to as you mentioned all of the triggers that are occurring at why people stop. but what do you think that the
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tinted window and the probable cause? >> i don't address the tinted window so much as i address the overarching context of engagement and that is we all grew up with the admonition don't call me from the jailhouse. i knew i grew up with that admonition. my parents were very clear. if you're into chile don't want to hear from you. so you've got to get out of it as quickly and as efficiently and as well as you can on your own. so i deal with that more overarching issue it more overarching issue of the necessity to be involved. just because someone is charged with a crime doesn't mean that they committed a crime.
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actually people are charged with trying every single day that they didn't commit, and we have to because that cognizant of the fact they stopped being orchid is because they were charged with a crime just because you have to go out where the fulton county jail is and go see them and call somebody to get it mailed out and the inconvenience of our children. they don't stop being our kids. just because stuff happens because it happens every single day to some good kids. >> that leads to the next question that i'm going to ask because you have laid out so well that we teach our children to respect authority. that is the syndrome i called don't call me. my parents did the same thing. if you're in jail, don't give me that called. but we teach our children to follow authority and then at the
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same time we see as it relates to justice, no searches, say nothing, the manitoba to just say no. how do you teach the family -- i was drinking about 30 minutes ago, when they say have you been drinking. how do you deal with the authority that the parents have taught versus the reality of how not to have to make that call? >> that's why a book like this become so valuable because so much of the interaction that we tend to have with law enforcement is going to be a she said effort to try to enter as quickly as possible. so our initial thought is they made a mistake.
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they pull me over or somehow they came upon me on the street or there is some reason that they are not understanding why all in the wrong person for them to be dealing with the situation, so all i need to do is to tell them the right thing for the specific thing and that's when this whole process starts because one of the kind of overarching issues that we deal with in the book is the context of a lot of this and the context is the criminal industrial complex so there's all these systems that have been created, basically livelihoods, companies that are traded on the stock market, corporations making hundreds of millions of dollars and they are all dependent on the police wanting
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handcuffs as many as possible on as many people as possible every day of the week. once they've left the handcuffs on you, there is very little chance he's going to take them off. he's basically done his job and, you are then basically placed on the conveyor belt moving along the system. so what you're doing when you start throwing all this stuff at them and start you try to wiggle your so free of them, you are giving more ammunition in things he can use when you move into the next step. so a lot of what we think we should be doing in this situation is counterintuitive to
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what our human nature is going to kind of have us do and that's why it's important to kind of know these facts early on. and it's important for parents to start talking about the stuff with young people before they are at the age where the cops are going to stop seeing them as perks and so when your kid is in middle school unfortunately middle school is a time of innocence. i'm going to have a middle schooler right here, my nephew is in middle school and so i know there's a lot of these thoughts. when they get to high school and they start driving, that's when suddenly this innocent little child is going to be seen as to some intimidating figure in a lot of minds and so we need to start talking about these things but the constitutional rights.
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once those handcuffs are on. let's just say that we are in a store and three friends. the next time you get a call, mom, dad, i was just in the store, joe and larry, i wasn't doing everything it might just as guilty and i was trying to tell them i didn't do anything. i was sitting in the car navigation.
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you go to the movies coming were in high school high school or some college girls you get to go hang out with if you're going to get in the car with some folks that maybe you don't know. if one actor in that car when you pull into the gas station says i will be right back, i will be back in a minute.
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and then he's coming out of the store at full speed. what are you going to do, you're going to drive. and that very person could have committed an armed robbery. and when that car stops, or when the kid with the gun is idd and they go get him and he says he was with that night, everybody is going to jail. i have had so many cases exactly like that. so, what do you do, how do you navigate that? often times that's when the parents are most disgusted. i didn't like that kid to start with. i knew that there was something wrong with them. what do you do? you get your kid a lawyer. you talk to them before they go hang out at the mall with their
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friends. if and when it happens because for most americans, latinos in the northeast is a huge emphasis for the arab-americans and most people of color at some point it's going to happen. they are going to get pulled over. they are going to get stopped in the store. everybody is going to get pushed up against the wall and everybody is going to get searched. and there are some kids who are going to be able to get out of it because they are the good kids. but the ones who the ones who took the merchandise or the one that held the gun, that's the one that is really going to be in trouble. but everybody else is looking at the possibility on the record.
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and this is just their kids who do stupid stuff. the same kind of stupid stuff that we all did when we were kids. i didn't do any armed robberies. [laughter] >> let me clarify that. [laughter] you know, we've all got friends who did stupid stuff. and so, you know, we got to have the conversations that eric holder talks about and that he had with his kids, but his son about what to do. that's what this is. that's what this book is. >> how about drugs in the car lacks >> somebody always has a little weed and it gets pushed down in somewhere where it's equal, it is called equal access. and legal speak where there are about two and a in the backend to a different.
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if everybody is getting charged, everybody's going down so you can't talk your way out of it. there is a chapter in the book that says just shut up please. >> that's my favorite chapter. [laughter] it is a plain view of equal access. it is in the same car that friends come out and say i have a cell phone. i need you to do something with my card. you don't know they just went and got three cell phones. so just shut up already. but what happens when you said the good kid and you sort it out. what happens when they have their cell phones on them and didn't know that they were stolen. can you speak about that? the book in together isn't a
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total. it isn't a magic bullet that is going to get you out of anything. what it is is an instructional manuals to speak that helps a young person be aware that yes they've got these cell phones on their person and here is the next step in the process. it is a process. it is a criminal process and it talks about how to minimize the negative impact of the process of your life on your life and how you can help yourself. if they search you, don't help them. i have had cases where someone
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was stopped and he was riding a bicycle and it was in awe of the scenario where he was riding a bicycle, no reflective gear. it's about to stop. but when they stopped him, they said well, do you have anything on you and so he proceeded to say hi have a 35-millimeter in my backpack. it is licensed in the state of louisiana. and i've got a little weed. [laughter] just shut up already. but because he defeated the attorney's ability to get stopped, the evidence that was obtained as a result, he
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volunteered this information. everybody will say you didn't read his book. [laughter] so he has a felony record. he was committing a felony. the amount that he had was a felony amount. and then he was in the possession of a firearm. so he has a gun charge on his record. he's like 26. no prior, none of that. and he has a long history also of mental health challenges.
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and we talk we talked about in the book also and we talk about the fact that black and brown folks don't like to get their kids tested. while, why not? my child has learning disabilities. developmental challenges. and i got her tested before the school told me to get her tested associate she could get the services that she needs because when our kids don't. and i know that i'm gone. but when our kids don't get the services that they need, they are just frustrated kids. and they are in this box when everybody else is just learning and progressing and growing and we are concerned that the stigma. the kids who didn't get tested for the kids that i'm talking about in the book because they
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started getting in trouble very early on in their educational process. not all of them, but quite a few. and they just bundled along and got into more trouble and more trouble and more progressive activity and progressive activity of the day were sitting in a jail cell with a felony looking at me. we have to do better by everyone in that respect and not just the children, but anyone who has a disease that we criminalize. i appreciate what he said in the book. i want to talk a little bit about his haircut chapter.
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that to me is a difficult one for us parents to navigate through. so i'm going to ask you how do you navigate through that? the >> one of the things that is difficult as an african-american male in this society and in this moment in time is accepting this idea that you need to think about how you present yourself to the world and perhaps help to make yourself more respectable so that people will find you less intimidating, less scary, and that's difficult for a young african-american male to accept that in some way you have to police yourself presentation,
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that when you look in the mirror you have to think about how you can curtail anything that makes you kind of stand out from what is an acceptable norm. and this country is all about self-expression and first amendment rights and all these things that we hold so dear but if we tell black boys that they need to be aware of how they look to people. and when something goes down into something happens to them, that is the first thing that we are looking at. why did he have a hoodie on his head, why didn't he obey the police officer more quickly. why did he not stop when he was told to stop and why did he have cornrows in his hair? why couldn't he get a haircut so that he seemed more presentable? so when they become of age and
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they start interacting with the world without their parents around, it becomes clear to them that the way that they carry themselves throughout the course of the day will dictate how other people react to them and sometimes it doesn't matter how you dress or whether you have a big smile on your face or not. people will still be afraid of you. but we have all kind of -- african-american males have all had a situation where you step on the elevator and you see how everybody gets afraid and clutches onto their their person thinks of in your pockets their person thinks of in your pockets while, do i try to make a joke and, you know, kind of the the bafoon it up a little bit or if i'm having a bad day, do i keep this towel on my face and scare everybody in the elevator so these are all very unfair thoughts that they are the kind of thoughts that black men have
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to deal with all the time and so when you get into the system and you know that so much of your state is going to be dependent on this jury of your peers looking at you thinking that you're a good one. you're not one of the ones i love my door at night to keep out. so then you have to think about all these issues how the world sees you and when you step into the corporate you need to make sure that unfortunately, you are as kind and presentable. in other words, you are as close to that jury members on or nephew or husband as much as possible so that when they look at you, they are not afraid. so that's what the chapter is about. the defense attorneys constantly have to pass judgment on the way that their clients look because they know the world that their clients are living in and they know how the jury is going to be
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looking at them and how the prosecutor is going to be looking at them and how the judge is going to be looking at them and so, they want to kind of strip away all these things that are going to be associated with those black men on the evening news. cicada closer you look like the guy that was on the news last night, the worse your chances are of emerging from your situation. >> how does a parent -- and we talked about it and i actually have clients together you have to leave out of here, you go to the restroom and when you come back i want you to look. a friend because if they haircut come it's the clothes. but how does the parent explained to a 17-year-old that going to the party to pick up their first girlfriend, that they need to be dressed a certain way because they are black, brown, different
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nationality. how do you navigate that from the family because it is the family that has to explain that. >> that is a good question and it touches on the real thing that i really want to talk about. and i really want to talk about ferguson. the reason i want to talk about ferguson is that there are so many different levels of emotion associated with ferguson coming into the whole idea that this is 2014 and you can get killed walking down the street as a young black male with a hoodie on having come to the store to get your brother some skittles just because you're black. so it's clear because i thought that when i became an attorney
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we have hit this place where i was going to be like the champion for justice. i didn't know that i was having to navigate a sociological stuff and racial stuff and biases. so, that's why the book was written because it's sort of like my swan song to being a criminal defense attorney and saying this is real. it's not something from our past when they killed emmett hill. this is all going to make sense, i promise. they killed emmett till and then
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cheney, good when, and we saw those terrific images. and all those folks that came before emmett hill and after philadelphia and mississippi. and then we get to 2012, 2011, and even before that it really sunk into my consciousness when george zimmerman was found not guilty. and what we got was the impetus because i was on the outline prior to that and i followed the trial just sort of on the peripheral because i knew how this was supposed to end on some
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level he was going to be found guilty of something. and was stunned. i was in washington, d.c. with my sorority and we went because we came out on a saturday night into sunday morning coming and i hope you don't get in trouble. i hope i'm not releasing some big secret. we went to the service and there were tens of thousands of african-american women at this service and we collectively wept for not just treyvon martin, but for the fact that in 2013, black
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lifestyle doesn't matter. so i called up nick and he was probably sick of me at that point and i said okay let's do it. let's do the book. and that's what we did. got, then i still fought in the back of my mind well, nobody is really going to need to read this book. it's not going to be a big deal. and we got since it came out october 1 there has been issue after issue, and then we get a further bastardization of the system with ferguson. and they invite a non- who was
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a. he truly could. i have struggled with the fact that maybe on some level this was the right result and try to justify it as this glimmer in the right result. they said i'm going to need you to get on twitter right about now. [laughter] i couldn't come to any conclusion and the fact that in the fact that we just wanted the guy to be charged. you cannot do this with impunity , because i couldn't rationalize in my mind if the
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actors were juxtaposed. michael brown and if he was a cop, and darren wilson was a kid and this black cop shop this white kid would he have been indicted and until i can say yes, i'm sorry -- until i can say no, then i can't accept that decision. i can't accept that kind of callous in different ways at this prosecutor decided to present this to the grand jury and the full scope of all the information that went to the grand jury. i cannot accept that because that is contrary to what the process is.
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so, now we've got this sense that you cannot kill black kids with impunity. you can chuck them out for selling illegal cigarettes on the street in new york and you can blast into a the car because the music is loud or -- it is just too much. but what we are doing in the criminal justice system is just this revolving door. so, until we get the scales balanced, then i will sit on the stage and talk about this book and city people in particular
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you must arm yourself with the right that applies to all citizens of this democracy. regardless of whether you want to be bothered with it or not. and if you are charged with a crime committed have to go to court and listen to your attorney if you have to cut off those beautiful dreadlocks. because otherwise you are going to look to the jury like that scary guy that they saw on tv last night. and you've got to sit there and control your temper when they see that you did this for you did that and this or that it can capture this emotion. they one advocate with you and
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help you. >> we are going to have questions in a few minutes, but what you have really put forward -- because i know that both of you all stand for what we call just human rights. this book helps the acknowledgments of everyone's right. what you just expressed is why he is black and brown different and how did you navigate the health of the families teach their children, how do we stand up for how do you just say no? so i think he forgot and we are going to have questions now. just one question.
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>> you speak very loud anyway. >> you've got me thinking so much about so many different things being a criminal defense attorney. i would say that my first question is where is the discipline among our kids. we have to address that issue. but how do we resolve the stereotypes come into stereotypes that our society. nobody is also addressed the content of the cop. that is a very serious condition and we have to address the psychological fact. >> have any questions do you have? [laughter] >> i counted five.
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>> let's get the answer. [laughter] >> okay. >> lets me talk about the discipline, and young people in discipline. i don't really -- i had a 17-year-old coming and the extent, i expect her to go to school and do well in her classes into this and that and the other. the rest of the time, i expect her to do silly stuff, hopefully not criminal. she's been in enough jails to know. [inaudible] [laughter] >> but i don't expect kids to the office disciplined.
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we will debate until the cows come home, but -- >> they are a loud to express themselves without -- with their individuality. >> here's my concern. >> there are things that my mom told me 74 years ago. and i had the first.
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i don't think that our behavior ought to be the one that we are looking at. otherwise it is important to look at that to turn on ourselves and we can't just say that we were the ones who were bad. how can we change this institution and the reason that i say that they thought the answer was to colonize us. they said that black and white people could never live together and i want to believe that the 12-year-old gets shot and killed. now i know most of the belief that that's true. so how do we change a system. we still have the same police force i don't think we do that the chief was on.
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they just go in there and take the job for system has changed. what i'm concerned about, i think we ought to use [inaudible] they need to know how not to get killed. other than that, how do we change. >> i agree with you it is a systemic. i am not advocating that our young men have to say any of that kind of stuff. i am advocating for them to stand up straight and to look them in the eye and say to them
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i don't understand why you stopped me. and i belief fundamentally to my core that when more young people pronounce their constitutional rights then it forces the police to change their processes but it is a systemic problem. racism is inherent in the criminal justice system as is -- i have. i was arrested when i was in college. but, so the other problem that
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we have with the system that goes hand in hand is economics. there is an invalid. you have a kid in texas who was able to use affluence as a defense. but i couldn't use -- this as a defense for one of my clients i would have been laughed out of the courtroom. so there is an imbalance particularly in the communities where you do not equal rights for funding for the prosecution and the defense. there is an inequity. this pick the next thing i want to say because there are three different parts, this book is to protect the young people. it is up to us. we are a generation that must come together and recognize the system problems and change it so
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that this book is to help for our children to survive in it to us to help this nation survive and that is the part that this book is not about but that's what they spoke about. >> the kid who killed all those kids in connecticut, he was white. that made me nervous. now if he was black and that happened, the whole reaction countries might would have been different than it was when he was white and the other white kids do that sort of thing. then the other thing, there is no emphasis at all, is our these kids who were very ethical, they donate to the donated to homeless and they don't have time for habitat for humanity. they are never in the limelight.
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and i just -- it's just a stupid to me. stupid to me. >> and the question? >> my question is what would the difference has been if some of these kids were black who did these massive killings of kids? i don't know of any white kid who -- black kid who is on that. has done that. >> we don't even really need to speculate. spec one of the things that becomes difficult when you are a young black boy is doing that they kind of expected you to fail.
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sometimes it's hard to kind of keep up this style of perfection you're not allowed to have a bad day. you are not allowed to fail a test or come home and have to tell your parents that you got suspended. your behavior, everything becomes radicalized so when you talk about their humanity and the idea there will be times when you are mentally unstable. they do not immediately respond in a way that a police officer asks them to and then that is a reason for them to be executed,
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which has been happening in a number of cases. all of us need to have the right to be as unstable as possible and not have somebody think that it is a death sentence. the girl who she was in some kind of accident, she was disoriented and wound up on somebody's porch and that was a death sentence and there were people asking why was she bare and white as she pounded on the door. so basically over and over again the expectation is that we have to be angelic and if we are not, then somehow we were responsible for all the things that happened to us. so in cases like the mass execution, the -- sometimes there's a game that we play where we wonder if things were flipped around but i wonder if
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it is even necessary to think about how differently we treat young black boys were mentally unstable. we don't really afford that same process. as a preventive measure to get the message out to young black men. >> they were different organizations. i mean, we certainly can't dictate what the schools do. but the 100 black men in atlanta are present here tonight and
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they intend to implement it as a part of their program. >> they seem to want to put that in the various institutions. >> number one, thank you. number two, i apologize for what people do to you. i can't imagine having to live that way. it's just shameful what we do. my question is what the policemen do you see as overreaching which i agree to. is that legal and even if it is legal, what could be done to stop them from doing it. isn't this the land that is supposed to protect people from that kind of overreaching? it is a series of presidents
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that has occurred over a lot of years and it he finds that the scope is as it relates to the police officers. their job is to push the envelope further and further away from the narrow compound in the job of the defense attorney is to try to reel it back in. we had a lot of gray area, and until it is challenged, that's how you sort of narrow that overreaching. >> in the initial situation it doesn't snow that which is what you're trying to -- why are the
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police about to on how to do that kind of overreaching? >> nobody challenges they are doing that. >> what is difficult for a lot of people who are in the situations to deal with, knowing what you're rights are good and they're still in a situation where you're dealing with the officers making demands. so then, where do you decide to go with your response to the demand if you see say that you don't want your car searched and the officer is insistent that it's just you and him on some dark road. often we have seen cases where the people try to exert their rights and kind of makes the officer said enough to then moved move to the next level and so then it becomes a question of
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how do i arrive home alive and so sometimes arriving alive means you are temporarily at least going to give up your right if this officer is insistent on you doing something that robin would tell you it is in your right not to do. >> you always yield to the cop. >> you always go home even after you've got your ticket. you can't ask because you've already asked me i leave. you know you can leave, but you can't leave. so your job is to get tom. >> live to fight another day. >> quick question about the legal aid in what is happening today. did you see any good science of kids don't have money to hire lawyers. are some of the young millennial
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layers more interested in having this kind service is there anything good happening in the legal aid that is inspiring or is it just more of the same? >> this gets back to be in equities and i will use the state of georgia as an example. they created the georgia public standards council and as an offshoot of that, it goes through the council and when.
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>> on a monthly basis or on a per annum for georgia. and then if you have this other issue, that is.com select cases. and so then you get the private attorneys, which is some work that i is over done. and we received contracts and we've the contracts and we've been assigned on average 100 cases per annum. you look back to the prosecutor and they've got this superfast system where someone is arrested and they appear before the court because they are required to appear before the court within a certain period of time where they enter guilty or not guilty
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and then it is a sign for a court date pushing towards a trial and you have this person running from courtroom to courtroom handling all these different cases often times looking at very serious which are felonies. the prosecutors get frustrated in the police officers are frustrated into the defense attorney is frustrated and overwhelmed. and it is a vicious system. when i started practicing almost 20 years ago now, the volume was nowhere near the appointed work.
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it's the inequality in the criminal justice system is indicative of a society which does not care about folks coming and we've seen a lot of that in georgia. we have seen a lot of that over the country. and it is heart-wrenching when you have a prosecutor that has an investigator and research assistant and paralegals and police officers. often times what i found myself doing is allocating my own resources to try to help somebody. i flew in on one case, i flew in
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with missing from chicago and i think that i was finally able to grasp some of that back from the georgia public council but it was a last-minute decision, she was a last minute and there were $750. and i just -- i'm grateful that i had the money. >> you got 150 back. >> there is such a difference between the that public defenders and the district attorneys. we fought really hard and we are going to continue that fight. when you have them on two different sides of the table, there should be equity. sending a message to the defense that you are not capable of performing. packages the final point on
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that, they are dollar for dollar on whatever you spend for the prosecution you spend it on the defense. and i advocate for that and i will wherever i can do that the same thing needs to end her in the other jurisdiction. >> it is a assumption of innocence still. >> i have to tell you i'm terrified. i'm terrified because police can shoot our sons down. you can commit cold-blooded murder.
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but isn't helping you that isn't helping you do anything but releasing that particular. it is a step by step and it is something that you need to ingrain in your son's mind and you need to keep a copy of it with them. a guy told me on twitter i actually answered my own so anybody, it is me responding. he said to me the stuff that you're advocating is going to. i live in the real world. and i said to him essentially
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what you're saying to me is your idea of asserting. your notion of asserting our constitutional rights places you in fear of getting killed and his response to me is yes. my response to him, and this is going to sound harsh, but there has to be something that you are willing to give your life for and stand there and be brave. and in my mind, because i have made that difficult position myself. i am willing to stand and do the same. it is until we stand up and
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demand for rights of citizens of this country it is not until we do that. >> truthfully that is what we are founded over is we are founded on protest. that doesn't mean we want you to start busting windows or anything but it's standing up and saying that i am. >> you cannot take a life without having to answer the consequences of those actions.
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so what i want you to when we leave here tonight as i is i want you to sit down with your sons tomorrow morning or whenever and i want you to begin the process of helping them with their own disposability and that's what this book attempts to. >> one of the things that always struck me is how seldom use all this in the system and your perception is that because the police knew that they were so well armed with their rights and so it was kind of like for them it is like a defense, the police know that that a no they know and so that is kind of a state we want all of our young people to be in but they start firing
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back telling the police what they are doing wrong and maybe that might be a little bit insubordinate but at least acknowledging i know what you're supposed to be doing in this situation and i know what my rights are in the situation. >> last question because we have a lot of hands over here. >> my question is following up on what you just said. the only thing that confuses me is even though you can arm yourself with rights, people like george zimmerman and darren wilson can not only still shoot you but they can get away with it because that's just the way the system works. so am i supposed to just be
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afraid of the police or is there anything i can do in that moment to not end up dead. >> okay. so, what we have to be clear about is that not all police officers are darren wilson. we have to be clear about that. and -- the question was how does he know the difference. you don't. but i thought it was important to see that first and we have to be clear about is that we hear about the instances with young people killed and it becomes
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just sweet across the country. it's all on social media. it's all in the news and that sort of stuff. but there are very many instances like the police officer. i believe that he was in portland and saw the kids. he's holding a sign that says i give hugs and they walked up and started talking and it was at a rally at a ferguson rally in support of the ferguson uprising. the police officer after they talked to said do i get to get a hug. he was white and the kid was black and was a beautiful little boy, had these huge tears coming down his face. the photographer was there and got the picture.
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so ultimately i answered you and say i want you to lift your life in peace and confidence knowing that you will be okay. but the reality is that i can't assure you of that. so i need to make sure to the extent that i can that you keep your self safe. your uncle needs to make sure you keep yourself safe and that's why we wrote the book. nine times out of ten, your interaction is not going to result in you being harmed. it is the anomaly that is so prevalent because we don't know
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when we are interacting with some anomaly or somebody who is processing stuff differently. so, be at peace knowing that the majority of your experiences are not going to result in injury to yourself. >> thank you. and we want to make sure that you shared this book with your peers. this book is textbook. it really is about how do you do one aspect of saving the people. we are going to be on the other side of the bank saying you're not going to take a sit down. we are going to get to the defense to the young people and the people in this room, we are going to start dictating a lot more in the community about how
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do we survive one part, but more importantly, how do we increase everyone's human rights so that 20 years from now this book would look like history for your children. that is what you all have done. we appreciate it. we are going to continue this fight because it isn't just about us if we don't survive her children won't survive, so i think you for what you have done and for being here tonight. [applause] >> they will be signing copies of the book in the lobby.
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[inaudible conversations] booktv continues. the former campaign manager for ronald reagan in the 1960s talks about is that reagan political and it argues that he was a political grandmaster. this is about 40 minutes. >> ronald reagan experienced several beginnings in his career
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history starting as a radio broadcaster in iowa becoming a successful hollywood actor serving and hosting a number one rated television program becoming the governor of california and is seeking the presidency. each of these at a specific new piece to our understanding of the man and his character and we continue to learn more about him even as we will be today. our guest author, thomas reid was reed was present at more than one of these beginnings. and in today's book come here shares his personal archives for the first time having shared them with so many others in the past. he served as secretary to air force during the end he beat carter administration and was the youngest ever director of the once covert national reconnaissance office and later served as the special assistant to the president for president for national security policy. his technical background
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includes nuclear weapon design and low temperature physics which we are getting ready to experience tomorrow i believe. he has advised the planning staff on policy and intelligence matters. he is also authored three books at the abyss the nuclear express and the triangle documenting the history of the cold war indispensable players. >> john talks about the book written, but i think that a little warning that the enigmatic is out on whether i was there book.
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it's not a phony biography filled with fictional people that never really existed. it isn't the hero worship. >> it explores the topics of what made reagan tick which many other officers have written about but none of them got it right area to select give it a try. let's start at the beginning 50 years ago. 50 years ago, the political opponents described him as a dumb actor. 30 years ago they were all wrong ronald reagan was not an actor he was a master of the political stage. think winston churchill and the battle of britain can ronald reagan is a master of the
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political stage. his mind was immense. it operated ten times the speed of us mortals. he was in fact a great communicator. he was known that we because of his performance on television. but the trick to his career is that he was a great communicator with everybody. example, in 1966, the first campaign for governor, i was a northern northern german and i was picking him up to northern california to meet the editor of a small-town paper in the tribune. on the way up i briefed him on the problems the corps of engineers wanted to reverse the flow of the river and all that kind of stuff. when we get to the tribune, and my view is ready to talk about these big issues, the editor comes out beaming and i look at the door and there is blood all
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over the floor. there are two halves of the rising stakes still on the floor. this man just killed a rattlesnake on the floor of his office. ronald reagan never missed a beat. he comes in the laughing and start talking about how rattlesnakes were dangerous critters and he talks about the way to deal with rattlesnakes and he talks about the trail and his host at the tribune talked about how they are in here all the time and so forth. we never talked about the river. never. ronald reagan established a report with the fellow and when we left they took good care of us in the news. that is the kind of man that ronald reagan was. he was amiable. he was fun to be with.
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but strangely enough, he had few close friends. in my years and companionship, we never talked about his hopes and dreams, his kids achievements, his financial woes at any, his health, we never talked about any of these things because he had no close personal friends they wrote about the trade in her memoirs. he would have made a superb hermit.
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he was close with ed meese was who is here today with one of your colleagues. he had pastors that he talked about as higher beings. when they decided to do something in the campaign we are going to do x. and there were no second guessing, no micromanaging he trusted me absolutely with his political life. she became the keeper of the bubble and a the surrogate for the protective mother now. neither nancy or any of the rest of us were really friends. nancy confirmed that in her memoirs you she said he doesn't
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let anybody gets too close. there is a wall around him. >> john who is a campaign was a campaign manager during the 70s said, quote, as the second son of alcoholic, reagan grew up being a people pleaser. that is how he coped. ronald reagan was an upbeat man. in the case of the defeat was a race to be forgotten. he simply could not meant not mentally deal with the defeat. he wanted every story to have a happy ending. example, from his own memoir he wrote running for president in 1968 was the last thing on my mind. i wasn't interested. that is baloney. i ran that campaign. 1968 by the summer of 68 we were flying around in a 727 jet.
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in august we were in miami in the hot trailers with no windows trying to break mixing's hold on the delegation chairman. and yes basically ronald reagan said that it wasn't a campaign. i wasn't there. that's because while it was a campaign and it didn't work and therefore it needed to be raced and that's why i be the team wrote as he did the memoir. let's fast-forward to the contra and after with the documentation and the committee reports nonetheless, he said the american people, quote, i did not create arms for hostages. my heart still tells me that is so. interestingly enough, ronald reagan was the weight of the political ambition. he knew what he be the den and he knew what he wanted people to follow, but he was not drunk with the thoughts of power unlike lyndon johnson and richard nixon, ronald reagan had no lust for power.
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he found the office to be funny. i think ed needs will confirm that. he thought when i first traveled with him fixing he thought the power was funny. he didn't really have a driving cover the core ambition. he was competitive and we will come to that in a minute, but he wasn't ambitious. it was nancy that provided the driving ambition. on the earlier report that comes from michael who in the conversation shouted down the hallway in their home. in 1965 nancy was shouting at you don't run for governor, i want a divorce. now, she didn't mean that of course, the point is that evidence is that the drive came from her. fast forward to the inauguration run-up in 1981. johnny carson cleaned the moniker to the ambitions to those favored.
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.. the burbank police department offer protection and data also offered a concealed weapon permit. not well understood during the years reagan was in the screen actors guild reagan also packed tea. reagan understood that lofty ideals of communism and simply
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could not be enforced without terror. that was part of his conversion. further political movement came in the early 50's with the korean war. reagan's enthusiasm for roosevelt transferred to harry truman. he believed in harry truman but as the korean war dragged on reagan grew concerned that war began in june of 1950 with the north invasion of the south but two years later there was no end in sight. the korean war had become a mindless meatgrinder, a lot like the war in vietnam a generation later. in the spring of that year 1952 reagan wrote to his -- dwight eisenhower urging eisner to seek the presidency. the general welcome that offers supported reagan campaigned on i expect half the 1952. he continued again in 1956 and
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he then worked for their eisenhower designated successor richard nixon in 1960. but always as a concerned democrat. in 1962 a decade after his original connection with eisenhower reagan reregistered as a republican and that was as he put it because his party had left him not the other way around. interestingly enough as a result of that relationship eisenhower became a reagan mentor not well-known. those men develop dish salad relationship and at the end of 64, at the end of reagan's time at the reagan's time for choosing speech eisenhower began to pay attention. the reagan performance stood in stark contrast to the harsh goldwater defeated 64. at year's end reagan was seeking to rebuild the republican party. eisenhower and reagan had stayed
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in touch through the years. they exchanged letters and then phonecalls and eventually personal visits. they stayed in touch through ike's last visit to palm desert in the spring of 1969. the concept of peace through strength was probably born during those conversations. i was not there for many of those conversations but we know of all these because of the records, the letters in the telecom records at the eisenhower library in abilene, kansas. reagan had a hero in the form of eisenhower but he also had a villain. that villain is the arch villain in reagan's life, robert kennedy. he became reagan's supreme nemesis foreign usual reasons. in 1961 con -- upon becoming his brothers attorney general bobby kennedy perceived corruption with a vengeance. the sidebar he also targeted
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political opponents. in february of 62 kennedy paul reagan before a grand jury two weeks later after that but the justice department subpoenaed reagan's tax returns. it never resulted in an indictment that reagan lost his job as host of the general electric -- reagan's kids got that news over lunch one sunday. i just lost my job the future president told his son michael. the kennedys threatened a general audit. his daughter maureen confirmed that conversation in her memoirs saying quote bobby kennedy had a hand in this cancellation. this may not be accurate but
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other reporters have pointed out the general election was losing ratings but that is not what counts. what counts is in reagan's mind bobby kennedy leaned on general electric and caused the cancellation of the general electric theater and the loss of reagan's job. he sought retribution in 1977 during a telstar debate with bobby kennedy and a bunch of students that were in europe but reagan went all out when kennedy entered the presidential campaign sweepstakes in 1968 is when reagan really got actively involved in campaigning for the presidential nomination. kennedy jumped in and 68 and then he relented upon kennedy's death. reagan was a very religious man. his ministers store mcburney was 11 of a half-dozen people present in september of 65 at the kickoff meeting in reagan's home when reagan's career would
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be crystallized. my insight to that relationship comes from a conversation with bill clark that i had in late 1981. bill clark had been serving as deputy secretary of state. he was getting ready to move to the white house to become the national security treasurer. in december of that year, i was having coffee with bill on the state department conference room. we were just brainstorming. bill, what are you going to do? what is sure to-do list when he gets in the white house? will he said without missing a beat i want to remove the communist oversight. i want to free eastern europe from the communist -- from communist control. well i thought that's really an interesting ambition. it's going to be kind of hard to do. how do you plan to do that? he pushed himself back from his table and he said we have a secret weapon. what is that?
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he reached into his pocket, pulled out a crucifix and slammed on the table. okay, he understood. he was a believing catholic, an active catholic. five months later bill clark arranged for reagan to meet with the polish born pope to discuss putting the pieces, the components for destabilizing the disintegration of communist control in poland. reagan was in avid reader of the bible. he read revelations and his fear of armageddon was a prime force in his determination to end the cold war. as we noted earlier reagan was devoid of political ambition but on the other hand very differently once entered a contest be it for public office or the survival of the free
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world. reagan was an uncompromising competitor. mike deaver said in his memoirs and reagan was the toughest competitor i have ever known. and that is how the cold war phased out. that is how it played itself out, with the spirit of not accepting second prices ever. this all came, i was involved in january of 1992. that was after reagan dealt with the economy. in 82 huber cart -- recruited bill clark and myself to come to the white house to help with national security matters. one of the first mornings i was there we were talking about silly things that dictators have done in republics far away. we got here and he peered over his glasses as he often would do and he said tom you know we have a problem. i thought he was talking about the air-conditioning doesn't work. tom we have got a problem. yes sir what is that? the soviet union. yes, that's a problem.
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tom, why don't you get the fellas together and figure out how we are going to end the cold war. holy mackerel. [laughter] okay. we talked about the pieces of all that and i ended the conversation thinking about how i am going to get people people from state and defense. i was just the chief clerk but i close a conversation with mr. president what is the endgame here? that a simple come. we win, they lose. period. that's the way he was. [laughter] said during the next few months we put together a plan that was articulated in a document called an std 32 decision directive 32 which was a plan for prevailing in the cold war. the war was on a lot of fronts, economic, technical, political but the end of the paper we
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thought through what is the objective and we wrote down what is the endgame? bob gaetz who is it terrific secretary defense came to write about if you get into a fight you need to think about how you are going to get back out. so we thought that through and we concluded you know tanks in red square pulling down statues is not the objective. so in decision directive 32 we wrote our definition. we seek to convince the leadership of the soviet union to turn their attention inward to seek the legitimacy that comes only from the consent of the government and thus to address the hopes and dreams of their own people. that's exactly the way it turned out. reagan's immense mind understood the failings of the soviet system. he was a good enough political chess player to explain those feelings while he was connecting
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with the soviet leader who had no choice but to seek the consent of his government. reagan's the va's mind and his ability to connect with anybody anywhere where the keys to understanding their reagan enigma. thank you. [applause] your turn. >> 25 minutes, like you said. we do have a microphone if you would please raise your hand and i will call on you and we would appreciate you at least giving your name and affiliation if you are comfortable and andrew i will start with you. with a known problem. >> tom thank you for being here. peter you see american foreign policy council. you have written two books about the threat of nuclear terrorism and i was wondering if you could give us a very brief update from where you ended up on those two
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books on whether we have made progress or lack thereof? >> the question is have we made progress for nuclear terrorism. god and away is a long way from "the reagan enigma" but its key because ronald reagan read revelations. he feared armageddon and therefore that was what drove him that we have to end the cold war. it was a driving force in the strategic defense initiative and so forth. i think we have made progress because as the introduction to these books that you inquired about the books were dedicated to the cold warriors, dedicated to the cold warriors on both sides who fought the cold war and a lot of local skirmishes and a believe of their own gods but at no time was a nuclear weapon fire. that's really an achievement that we had a great way to see that others were safe and under control. the problem is there's always
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the possibility of a getting hands on a weapon but not likely. they may get their hands on fissionable materials. the real problem is there is one muslim state pakistan that has nuclear weapons. even in the run up to 9/11 the al qaeda people tried to make a deal with the pakistani nuclear types. they didn't succeed but the problem of the nuclear material getting into bad guy's hands was real. the problem was not a weapon being stolen. that's not going to happen. the nation controlled nuclear weapons and they all got serial numbers. we know where they are. they are so locked up that the problem is fissionable materials in the hands of people building low-tech weapon that's the problem and that problem remains.
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i can hear you without the mic. >> yes, but the world can't. al millikin with a immediate. you do have the opportunity to talk to ronald reagan about his divorce from jane weinman and in looking over the legal documents i guess he was accused of extreme mental cruelty but my understanding from what i have learned is he really didn't contest that whatsoever. i was wondering what you found out about that? >> well, the two things i talked about. one he had no friends which means he never talked to that of -- about that to me. the book "the reagan enigma" is fact-based. it's published by university and the introduction is written by the present of university. one of the sources for the book was stuart spencer who basically was the political genius. he was the political strategist that won every election that
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reagan won. stu did talk to jane weinman as he was getting ready to run the first campaign. he met with jane weinman and talked about ronald reagan and she was very forthcoming about their relationship. she wished him well but she made it very clear that there was no acrimony. there was no difficulties. it was just that ron got more and more interested in politics and her career was going into starting. she did quote one of her fellow stars in hollywood who said quote don't ask ronnie what time it is. he will tell you how the watch is made. i think that was the problem. there was no acrimony that i ever saw. >> thanks very much. you mentioned he was a catholic.
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>> no though clark was catholic. reagan was very religious. he believed in a higher being which was really the contrast his government is not the higher being. there is a higher being that deals with right and wrong and higher purposes and he believed in a higher being. he didn't care what particular building you went to. he didn't associate with any particular religion. he had ministers from the very beginning and stuart mcburney was there. september 65 when he kicked off and the other ministers became close over the years. he believed in a higher being which is why he did not believe the government was the answer and communism was the arch type of all of that. he was not secular anyway. though clark was. >> down here in front. wait for the mic please.
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>> my name is bill. i just came back from a long time in china. i'm curious if reagan were alive today what do you think his approach would be to dealing with the communist party in china? >> the question what would reagan do today often pops up and is essentially an interval because times are very different. you can only apply his mindset. he had an immense mind and he could connect with people. that is what you really miss. i think if reagan were alive today he would look at the problem and would assemble guys like ed meese and say let's put together a plan. he would put together a plan for dealing with it. he would not do it ad hoc weather was china or other confrontations. ronald reagan clearly would say here's the problem. you guys put together a plan and he would listen to it and say yes, yes, no and then he would pursue it. that was his strength. >> tom you mentioned in the discussion his mother briefly
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and then you mentioned in the book his father. do you want to share a little of your thinking about the fact we know his father had an alcohol problem and in some ways what the president did was either withdrew into knowledge and books and learning for escapism some would argue with their radio personality, the television and all that. >> that moves from what i know to what i believe. i have tried in the book to be meticulous about what i know. two of the researchers from the book as we plowed through this why was ron always wanting to tease people and why did he not want angst around him? why did he not connect with friends. two of my researchers said tom that's because his father was an alcoholic. we are adult children about
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politics and let me tell you how it works. these folks gave me a couple of books one by a fellow named dr. chris bird about how children about politics react. i have to come to believe, i have come to believe that the fact that reagan was the child of an alcoholic lead him to really not connect with other people into one happy endings to every story. i can prove it but i have had people once i wrote the book, some really senior people have come to me instead yeah you have got it right. my father was not gallic and i don't trust people. his father was a happy alcoholic. he just couldn't keep a job. he was not beating the dog and so forth. ron talked about pulling him off the porch and getting him into bed but he also talked about his mother nell who is the patron saint who dealt -- they were
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essentially homeless in illinois and al was the mother that dealt with all this and kept the family together. i think that upbringing had a lot to do with his inability if not the unwillingness to connect. ed meese got to know him longer than i did. i knew him earlier so i have seniority but only by a few weeks. [laughter] >> over to the far left. >> eni are the surviving colleagues. ed's title is that was really important because ed meese was there to really brainstorm for what we were going to do and made indispensable contribution to the success of reagan's administration at the end of the cold war. >> at angers for marriage foundation. what evidence of eisenhower's foreign policy influenced
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reagan's philosophy if any? >> the question is eisenhower's influence on reagan. as a relationship that nobody really understands. it got to be quite close. as i said after the 64 election eisenhower looked at the famous speech like a lot of us did and said here's somebody who makes sense. eisenhower wanted to rebuild the party and so he began to connect with a lot of people. he first asked his golf playing buddies in los angeles i haven't met romba tell me about him. we knew all of this because of the letters in the eisenhower library. he then started talking to reagan and he then met with him. we went, i was there. we went to the eisenhower ranch in gettysburg after reagan won the primary and eisenhower began to give advice about politics. but they also talked about national security. a lot of times and we know from
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the nest of those conversations, they talked often about vietnam. bear in mind this is 65, 66, 67. this was a key issue. they talk about vietnam and eisenhower's observations were a bad idea to get into a land war in asia but if you get in any war you have got to plan to win it and he was really disdainful of the johnson approach to a slice at a time gradualism that eisenhower one quote was as a company holding a hill give me a division and i will take it without any casualties. eisenhower message to reagan was if you are going to get involved think through why. don't do it without an endgame but if you do get involved full force all the way. i believe the concept of peace through strength came from that relationship.
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it was a close relationship. >> in the far back. >> did the ronald reagan you knew the one who occupy the white house have a sense of his place in history and if he did how did he see his place in history? thank you. >> i'm sorry, did he see a place in what? >> a sense of his place in history. >> did reagan have a sense of his place in history? i think absolutely. he understood the big picture. he had an immense mind. i don't mean kind of big, immense and that was fast. it was 10 times faster than us mortals here. that's what all the opponents never understood. he had this huge cataloging mind to understand everything. when he was going to have a confrontation with bobby kenne
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kennedy, the antipathy for kennedy and the politics of 1967 cbs thought of the great idea of kennedy and reagan and television studios talking to students in europe. so reagan agreed to do that. getting ready for that he had a history of yeatman. was ho chi minh and versailles and what was he doing there? who were the casualties? what was the north doing to the south? he spent a week studying that and then the last day before he practiced in a quasi-studio just as you do for a presidential debate. one of the senior staff played bobby kennedy and others on the staff prepared and thought it through. he understood hist he understood the sweep of history and that is why he understood that the cold war cannot go on forever.
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and in writing this book i was fortunate to have met or knew a lot of former presidents and in talking to them i asked mr. president, mr. ford how did you envision t war ending? well all of these gentlemen said you know once i got there the threat of nuclear annihilation was so terrible i really became focused on not letting that happen. how did you envision the cold war ending? while the soviet system is broken and it will collapse and that believing containment but none of those presidents really hadn't thought as to how is the cold war going to end. reagan had a respect for history the sweep of history and he knew it had to end and he was determined to make it happen his way. >> i think he may have been asking a second aspect. i agree he did understand history and have a sense of it and what we could do but he didn't have an egotistical sense of where he was in history.
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>> absolutely not. he was devoid of political ambition. you can't believe that in a president but i believe he was devoid of political ambition. he knew what he believed and that was nonnegotiable. he would negotiate with legislators over the edges but he propounded that and if people wanted to follow that's just fine. if not i'm going to get on my course. so he was not an egomaniac. he was not a lyndon johnson, i want my place in history. he thought all of that was kind of funny. >> do we have another question? anybody else? we will do one more. >> al millikin again. what is your understanding of
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his connection with astrology? obviously nancy seemed very involved in influence on that regard but how do you see him in connection with that? >> the question is reagan's connection with astrology. i think it was essentially zero. nancy was his lover and wife but she became the protector. therefore all the things that she talked about he was very thoughtful but when it became involved with her involvement of affairs in state he absolute to drought. example, stu spencer tells me of having dinner upstairs in the white house after he had just given the evil empire speech and nancy was on his case. you can't say that, that's terrible. we have to have detente and get along with the soviets. ron was eating dinner and stu spencer was there and he turned
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to stu and said what you think of the info -- evil empire speech? spencer said approximately well mr. president you were going to scare a lot of people. it is an evil empire but you are going to scare a lot of people. without missing a beat he said wells do it is an evil empire. we are going to push them over backwards. what's for dessert? he viewed his astrology stuff as part of what nancy was doing and that was nice but he was not impacted at all. >> one more for care. >> to present reagan's sense of player -- sense of humor play in his role play? >> he had enormous sense of humor and how did it play in the na too? well i think it was the escape route for not talking about the serious stuff. he regularly talked about movies and that drove his wife but we
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understood that. that was the history that he thought about. we were talking about some issue and suddenly he's talking about gary cooper in high noon. that's not a divergence. he's saying let's do what's right. it may be dangerous but let's leave the honors to others. he talked about grace kelly. he's not talking about some lady from monaco. he's admiring a woman who sticks with her husband no matter what. ..

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