tv After Words CSPAN August 14, 2015 12:40am-1:38am EDT
but it is a small piece of a bigger issue. people were tired. ferguson was a town that was upside down. it has been inverted. you have white rule in black majority. and so there is an inversion of the power structure. >> the police were largely white, the community was overwhelmingly african-american. >> yes. and the poverty structure is different as well. it is majority white and mostly black. so i think that eric lerner, this issue is real. and it's not obama, who? but everything comes to a president and this is the thing that bothers me. we forget so easily. why are you asking him if he is
going to go to ferguson. why not to race issues have come to every president in the book. lbj, john f. kennedy, eisenhower all of these presidents have dealt with issues and acted on it. so people need to understand and so it comes to the president and he is the one who can effectuate change. >> bill clinton, did he come close to african americans considered an apology for slavery? >> there was a speech that he gave when in africa. he did not apologize for slavery.
it was a back-and-forth fight between the white house and i will never forget it. and i said that i am not looking for an apology for slavery. and not only be issue of reparations, but people said yes, this needs to happen, but bill clinton was the only one that could have done it. he was the first who could. [inaudible] he wasn't even going to take ownership for what america did. but president barack obama at the time, it was not the right time for him. but this president has had to strategically navigated through these waters so he could successfully have a second term in the don't think it would've been the right term for him.
back when bill clinton was in this era, in the book the presidency in black and white, we have accounts from the e-mail where they were crossing out certain words, and i just couldn't believe it. so they were close. but it did not happen. >> you have covered the white house, but you are also an american. here also a mom to three beautiful little kids, and you come from a strong and close family and do you vote? there are some reporters who don't or think they shouldn't. how do you handle your own personal beliefs?
>> they are so strong in their feelings. but i'm going to say that i am a person, like anyone. and i know we talk about the strength of women. i am a woman and at the same time a reporter as well. sometimes the hat comes off and when it does i do vote that i'm not telling you who i vote for. >> you register to vote -- >> i'm not going to get into that. [laughter] >> i'm in the district of columbia where we can register is no party. do you vote in primaries as well as general elections? >> yes, i am a registered voter. >> i want to get into -- just one other footnote that struck me as a nice touch, when you
talk about black and white you capitalize the word black and capitalize the word white. and i think that gives both terms a sign of respect. was that intentional on your part? >> yes, we are all here together. i have black friends and white friends. people want to believe that when you talk about black-and-white bed there's a race thing but it's not coming it's about history. it is about putting out there what is really going on and what i really want to impart is what we know what is going on. we need to understand what is going on. and not say that you did this or you didn't do this. it's all coming together and working the south as much
respect for each community. >> do you think that the white house press corps shows that same kind of respect? >> historically we know what happened many years ago. tell everyone who he is and how he was honored by the white house at its 100 dinner. >> you are going to make me cry. seventy years ago there was a gentleman by the name of harry who was a wordsmith. he was a print reporter, he took his job seriously and he wound up being a civil rights reporter and he was told don't come in this room. you could step on someone's toes to find out what is going on.
harry mcalpin. don't come in here, it's going to be a riot. he stepped on a white reporter's toes and there could be a riot. and so ultimately they let him come in. and the bottom line, this happened 70 years ago. and it just boggles my mind. we work so closely. and to think that fast forwarding to today you are always going to have that. some differences might be racial and other differences may just be a difference of opinion and i think that is a whole that we are trying to do better as a group and i think that as a group, number one not a lot that
is one thing. but professional. competition. but are there some people who may have harbored things racially? there may be and there may not be. so i have some things that i have questioned and it's not worth fighting over right now. >> april ryan, you do something that many reporters don't do. at the end of your book you conclude your explanation of how you have graded the three presidents that you have covered. and while i don't want to have a spoiler alert without the book turns out, you covered bill clinton, george w. bush, and you covered barack obama. three modern-day presidents who got eight years, two terms each. and none of them flunked.
but the grade, none of them comes up with a f, but none of them comes up with a a either. and you write that president clinton is the reigning champion on diversity. why? >> he has had the most confirmed african-american cabinet, marshalls, judges, not judges, barack obama has now been the champion on that one. but as far as u.s. marshals go and cabinet persons and they worked hard on diversity there. and so from when i say this but they worked hard and i give him a grade that i have given. it is good that he did that to because he brought another group of people to the table and he
brought people to the table to help make decisions. maybe we didn't get all the things that we thought that we wanted or needed. he began not just the picture but substantive change that trickled down into other administration. >> george w. bush had a national security advisor and a second african-american secretary of state at a time when the united states was very engaged around the world and in troublespots. does he get good pointer that? >> bill clinton says this and he said this when president bush was president and he said it last year at this time that george w. bush did have the most diverse republican administration and it's interesting that it was a
republican who put these men and women in that position and it took him to do that. so this is the first administration when he saw the prominence and it followed suit in the obama administration with the attorney general. >> that does not counterweight president bush's experience after katrina? >> was that racial? >> i don't think president bush is being racist in his handling of katrina. >> this is a hurricane that affected so many and the minorities and lower income people that were hurt by the storm. >> particularly in the ninth ward of new orleans where we saw people on the rooftops begging for help. even president bill clinton for
this book, "the presidency in black and white", he says that i think his policies did not help to elevate people in poverty. when we talk about hurricane katrina, president bush got in a lot of trouble for the fact that he was caught up in the states rights issue in katrina and they had to deal with it and that is what brought him down. but because people felt disenfranchised and people died, that's part of it. >> barack obama is the first and probably not the last african-american president he will cover. but his grade isn't as high in your book as bill clinton's.
>> because of the first term. i am not going to say inaction but because he did not come out and do things. we see a more african-american president who is african-american versus someone who happens to be african-american. he is comfortable in his own skin now and he's not ashamed of it. the first term he had to be strategic, he had to be very strategic and there was a fight within the white house. he was the president who did the payout after 17 or 18 years of waiting. but it wasn't necessarily i'm going to do it. >> i'm surprised that -- are you
surprised the barack obama didn't make a stronger case's first-term? >> no, because he had to be who he was. and because the economy was in such trouble. you have the tea party as well. and i remember hearing from people in the end ministries and that we don't want to amplify it and we also know that race and politics are always part of this. but the issue was that none of them fell like they had to really walk a fine line. anything they do that specifically targets african-americans from certain parties and certain groups and they would thwart any effort they would try to do. >> april ryan, you have been at the white house are an exciting time and we thank you for sharing your and your book here with us today. >> thank you.
>> booktv in prime time continues on friday with books on 2016 presidential candidates. at 8:00 p.m. mike huckabee discusses god, guns, grits and gravy and his look at culture and then doctor ben carson on one nation and how we can save america's future. and then senator marco rubio on american dreams. >> books here on c-span2. >> wrote to the white house coverage of the candidates of the iowa state fair continues on friday with or governor jeb bush speaking at the "des moines register" state fair.
later, wrote to the white house joins donald trump when he speaks in new hampshire. we will be live from the high school starting at 7:00 o'clock p.m. also on c-span. >> this weekend on the c-span networks, politics, books, and american history live from the iowa state fair. candidates speak at the soapbox beginning at noon. we will hear from rick santorum and lincoln chafee and senator bernie sanders and sunday afternoon wore live coverage from the iowa state fair with ben carson at 5:00 p.m. followed by george ptaki. then senator claire mccaskill on her life and career.
then the book america and the legal situation involving campaign finance laws. start at 10:00 a.m. eastern with many presidential candidates visiting the iowa state fair. we will learn about the history and its tradition as we look back at the 2008 presidential race. saturday evening at 6:00 o'clock, a historian and author on 1864 battle of mobile bay and the closing of one of the confederacy's last major ports. get the complete schedule at c-span. >> mrs. taft led an effort to raise funds to create a memorial for victims of the titanic. but her greatest legacy was bringing thousands of japanese cherry blossom trees to the nation's capital.
helen taft at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's original series, first lady's influence and image, examining the private and public lives of these women from martha washington to michelle obama sundays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span3. >> next, "after words" features ralph nader discussing his book "return to sender: unanswered letters to the president, 2001-2015". he is interviewed by the founder of busboys and poets. it is about one hour. >> it's great to have you here, ralph nader. >> thank you. >> i'm honored to be able to interview you on this new book that you have which is "return to sender: unanswered letters to the president, 2001-2015". is that in homage to elvis
presley? [laughter] >> it is a message of 103 letters that i sent to president bush and president obama from 2001 through 2015 with very few exceptions, not acknowledged and not answered. i thought that i would embarrass myself and put them all in a book to raise a bigger issue, which is the most democratic media is that when a person writes to an elected official that a mayor or a senator, it cannot be distorted and not to try to answer it so that people will know that it's not going to some dark hole. it is a major issue, i think. and most young people don't realize that a red letter to a politician has far more impact than you know. >> there are lots of letters, i think about a half million per
week. and we certainly don't expect an answer to every letter. >> yes, a lot of people don't know that teenagers are regular volunteers to go to the white house every morning and they separate all these letters. no one expects the president to answer these letters but he has a staff and departments and agencies throughout the executive branch and they should all be of knowledge. and so that is my complaint. they have robo letters for high-profile issues. which is often like this. where it doesn't even answer to a letter where they will write letters to supporters are contributors. and presidents do write personal letters to a governor or mayor supports the president on who gives money. so anyone who says that he he
doesn't sign particular letters to particular people doesn't know what they are talking about. and so they do play favorites. and so here is where you can get a letter automatically from the white house. you say that i would like you to attend my daughter's high school graduation. so they have to be polite. they write a letter expressing regret. >> were i want to give you money. >> yes, they will. i have a variety of letters in which they could have armed out to the secretary of energy, the secretary of transportation, the head of the federal trade commission and they don't even of knowledge my letters and so i write both bush and obama letter and say what is your the one answering letters and they didn't answer that one either. [laughter] >> by comparison i sent to critical letters to the prime minister of canada and that came with formal knowledge meant with
the director of correspondence saying that the haverford my message to the respective ministries. and it leaves you know that human beings, one or more, have answered the letters. so if it goes to a dark hole and it's not acknowledged, fewer people would write letters and the postal service shows that letterwriting is declining and not just because of the internet. what is interesting is in canada they have made affirmative policy encouraging people to write letters to their members of parliament or at the prime minister. because it's free. no stamp is needed. in our country, the politicians send letters to us. and so we can't do it in reverse. >> so you have said that most of the letters were not answered. a couple of them were. >> i wanted to make it really easy for president obama. when he's running for
reelection, i said here is what president carter did. he went to a major hotel ballroom three blocks in the white house. and that includes millions of members out there around the country. supporting these groups. and it's called a nonprofit sector. and so you have gone to india, you have always had to have a little spot in the letter. this is just three blocks. and you can do that. and he did walk across the lafayette park, those that criticize them everyday. and so i thought it was good for him because he would bring visibility to them. and a lot of jobs are involved
in the nonprofit sector. and that includes people in need and etc. so i sent the letter copy to michelle obama and she writes back to me and says thank you, but the president is too busy. and so when you do persist, when you try to get an answer, you get a response with more interesting. >> there's another letter that you got from president bush where he actually invited you to contribute to his library and what did he replied? >> this was a letter to me by name. we can separate out things. >> was that a response to a letter that you sent? >> he is asking me for money because of his presidential library and along with dick
cheney, he's asking me for money and i had picketed him and challenge him publicly and the computer was not part of that. and so i said, i chided him on the criminal invasion of iraq and how he opened up to iraqi refugees who were supportive, they were not supportive of the mission, but to feed their family they were chauffeurs, translators, some of them lost their lives and he would not let them in. we let 100 xt thousand vietnamese refugees in and maybe 10,000 at the most iraqi refugees and then at the end said i think i want to make a contribution in the title of the book is rogue nation.
and i will check someday to see if a catalog of in the presidential library. >> a lot of the letters are funny in some ways. you wrote one about a terrorist. >> there was a bacterial outbreak in europe and some people die. it was a viral and bacteria and they gave e. coli and some numbers. so i have been trying to get president clinton to redefine terrorism and if you're worried about the loss of innocent civilian lives you better worry about viruses and bacteria and not just the ones that come from africa and asia, we are dealing with a lot of mutations, you are a scientist with the national institute of health and this is a scary thing if we don't get ready in time, it could be like influence after world war i. so i'm saying, how am i going to get to these people.
so i decide to write a letter in the name of the alkali virus. and they have already analyzed it, there's no more use. so this is basically like i have to do something to redeem myself. [laughter] so returned to sender, it made the case for the president to raise the priority of focus and concern to prevent epidemics, deadly epidemics all over the world and there's no one to confront that better than them if we can get over the word terrorist. >> i was at a few of the events that you had spoken about in the book and the one that i was asked about, the first one, where you did the book launch in washington dc and i wanted to ask, i was fascinated about how that talk went. it was a great talk ,-com,-com ma obviously, but the first
question that you got was about why did you give the election to al gore in 2002. >> have you ever been to an event where you spoke where that was not asked? >> no, it's very rare, it hangs in people's heads. >> i thought you were so spot on and direct. the audience tends to be rather suspect that all about the staunch democrats. but you got applause. there was applause. please enumerate the answer because i think it's important for people to hear. >> we can never tolerate political bigotry against third-party or independent candidates who exercise their constitutional rights. and if we all have a right to run for election, third parties, all of them, we have a right to get votes from one another which means spoilers of one another or not. why should the green party candidate in a third less citizen. that is a fundamental reply. that is the pragmatic reply is
as you try to get through to these people. al gore would say i won the election in the popular vote and the electoral college, threw it into florida and then he will say that it was stolen from him in a variety of ways and that includes the secretary of state, jeb bush, those of us remember all of that. and the supreme court as well. and he also would've been president if he just won his home state of tennessee that he represented in the house and the senate. so when you see them, any one of which would have put him in the white house. >> all 250,000 democrats voted republican in florida. 250,000. now, how much was that loss by? >> 537 before the recount.
and also a arkansas and he was vice president to clinton. >> that's right. and so clinton could have gotten arkansas for him. >> i'm amazed at how many people continue to ask that question. >> they will accept anything that is offered and i tried to tell them that if you do that you lose your bargaining power. the operations are pulling onto parties 24/7. and that includes corporate district wall street and how do you have this. not by saying that you will go for the least and the worst, on april may, june and july. they tell them exactly what the
corporate democrats want to hear, which is blanket support no matter what they will do because the republicans are part of this. every four years both parties get worse. >> back to the book, have you sent a copy? >> yes, i sent a copy and a letter. no acknowledgment that it had ever gone to the white house. but now i think i have a contact in the white house and i could give it to her so she can give it to the resident in the oval office. >> what would be a victory for you 2 a phone call from the president, it and invite? what would be a victory? >> result of this technology letter. and by the way i than these around. you can't put all of your eggs
in the white house basket. you send them to reporters at times, opponents, members of congress. you send it around to university professors that are interested in the subject of acknowledgment we have to do a courtesy here. and i would like substantive responses. for example we tried for six years to get an appointment with the secretary of energy who is pro-nuclear and meets all the time with the nuclear industry and i had the nuclear group that had been around for decades, scientists, etc., they had never been able to see him and he would just blow us off. so i wrote to president obama and that your secretary is not giving equal time here, no answer and they did not even refer the secretary of energy for a response.
so i would like to spalling executives to get some of these responses. if they come from the white house they were responding. >> there were two presidents, bush and obama. honestly they had written letters previously. why did you stick to those 22 are they more egregious to the other. >> yes, it's getting worse, even senators and representatives. and part of it is they are very secure in their seats. but and they have rolled a letter to. and they don't want to be bothered. i would write to jimmy carter and once in a while he would respond and i would say i would
write to the senator asking for congressional hearing and it would be in "the washington post" or "the new york times." and no matter how authoritative a letter is, let's say comes from professor ted poe's saying that it's a total boondoggle, 9 billion per year, almost as much as the epa and the entire budget, suppose that he writes a letter and it's new. the press just a great letters, they don't report them the way they used to. i once wrote a letter on what we call white lung disease and it was workers in north carolina. it was "the washington post." so it's a dying media, we have to revive it and there's no one can stop it because no one can stop us from writing letters and
sending us around. no one can stop us from writing more powerful letters so the senator whitehouse can say this or that. this is going to a reporter, i better write it. >> so you have a podcast that people can go to it. do you put those letters is a podcast? you have other ways to bring them out do not always we sending them to the white house you may not get a response or attention but there's a lot of people out there listening to alternative radio and so aside from the alternative, let's talk about the use of the podcasts getting that information out. your ultimate goal is not just get an answer, obviously. so do you -- do you do a multi-tiered approach to setting
up this information? >> i actually do more of that. the program basically interviews people on important subjects that are not in the news. and so that is the bulk of the program, like i just interviewed steve from san francisco who is a philanthropist who helps with others funding seven or eight people who are going to replace this presidential practice where you can come in second and still become president might have happened four times in american history most recently in 2000, gore came in first, bush came in second but the electoral college put him with the supreme court. so who knows about that. they now have 100 xt five electoral, that is theyave laws passed from maryland, new york, illinois, california, if they go to 270, that is the end. what do these laws say we might it says that in maryland or california that they will throw the electoral votes completely
to the winner of the national popular vote. so they are redefining what they cannot do and so we had him on it. but you're right, i should herald some of the letters and summarize them. >> one way would be to put the letter out the sin out of the white house and the along with that you do some kind of a grassroots activism so the people can write similar letters, focus on the issue, call the white house, do whatever. i think a lot of times from what i hear from people in congress, they do respond to the number of calls. so when you have the same voices being heard over and over again, there is a little bit of a take from their. >> yes, they count the calls and the letters. they may not respond that but it hasn't impacted its coming and in larger numbers.
>> if you picked up the phone and call the white house, do you ever get a call back and ask. >> if i called a special assistant i would get a call back maybe after the third call. you have to be quite persistent. >> one was last time you are invited to the white house? >> it was under bill clinton. excuse me. he would assign the special assistant to handle our groups, so to speak. so we were invited several times but only to see him. >> okay, i see. here you i, you were deemed one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century by time magazine and by the atlantic monthly. i am just flabbergasted at having run for president and having had an impact, i understand that there's an old saying in politics that you bring your enemies closer. so whatever you do whether seen as a friend or an enemy,
bringing you closer, there's probably a better purpose, don't you think? >> why do you think that there is this resistance? >> stinkers a couple of reasons. number one is the 2000 campaign that produced a lot of shunning by the democrats in congress and in the white house. you know, how dare i challenge this, that is what it was in the 1960s. we could not have got through all of these bills were worker safety. we got them through in the 1960s. in the second thing is that if you do not get mainstream press coverage they don't think that they need to respond to you. so "the new york times", certain citizen groups they are not going to cover. they will say why should we bother responding. it's too bad because these
letters often point out things going on in their own government . they don't like the criticism, but it's just not good politics. >> you can be sure that they would respond. they were responded to perceived power. in the 60s if you had good knowledge and information about how cars can be made safer and how the air could be cleaned, that often went over the hurdle and if you've got press they would respect you more. >> a lot of people, when they talk about this and when i speak to friends about you, oftentimes
they will speak about the idea of legacy. you are 81 years old. you must be thinking about that and about what will the average american who did not grow up in the 60s and know you in a direct way with the issue and all of that. what would you like people to know you as? >> more than that, we would like to have a big celebration for the 50th anniversary, which is in november and then have a series of events to help create new groups and how to create and introduce new leaders whose names are not on the eve in news. and that's really what the legacy is all about. it's not about this but putting it back in the 70s and there are over 25 now, they have
student funded full-time staff, they have scientist, lawyers, lobbyists, places like massachusetts, new york, california, they are multiplying themselves. and so i like to give people ideas to put into place and we had a discussion with you on what a great community it is and now we have several that have a bookstore in an event room with events almost every night, artistic poetry, political, nothing is off limits. sumac that should be added to your public interest found in. because that did come out of a conversation that we had and i remember us talking about it when jerry brown was part of it and you helped him to cobble together his platform at that time. >> yes, fantastic. he still has a box full of them.
>> yes, i remember it had a picture of the statue of liberty with a scaffolding around it. i have copies of that as we originally started talking about that. but your idea is that you really do believe in citizens and that is the beauty of all this. you believe and you feel very strongly having known you for so long and having taught for so much that they just know, it people just knew how much power they had and what is it that they're up against it they can affect change. has your faith in the average american citizen and strength in overtime? hasn't weakened overtime? do you feel that you are up against such a tie that it's hard to get your views across? >> there is a progress factor in people know who are doing them
in now. they didn't even know that the auto companies were selling them lessons they've cars. the gleaming chevrolet with the hood ornaments in the music. [inaudible] and yes, now they know who is a great man, under insuring them, denying health care, screwing them as consumers marshaling exclusions. they know all of that. so that is the first step. the second step is to avoid immortalization which is the big problem. you can't fight the big boys, you know, just sort of live a pleasant live as much as you can, text messaging, watch tv, play sports, watch sports, whatever. that's the biggest problem. that means that they have given up on themselves even though the
constitution starts and ends with "we the people." there's no reference to political party, not a no mention in the constitution. so you have this, here is my anecdote. american history shows, 1% or less of the people, who are seriously engaged throughout the country. read directions, reforms, they are supported by the majority of the people and that's all you need. so people go around and say that i just have to get one out of 100 people in my town or in my congressional district to put in two or 300 hours per year on an issue that they believe in and people put more than that for their bridge game or bowling leagues or their watching and it's all over.
and they even organize western owners in that. [inaudible] people that took a few hours to demonstrate saying there are 30 million million workers making less today than in 1968 adjusting for inflation people scattered around the country, getting media, maybe a few think tanks or if you groups like ours, contacting politicians and putting out records, doesn't that not encourage people? that is what made obama pay attention in cities and towns say that we are not waiting for the government, the federal
government, which is still stuck at seven and a quarter per hour. and it's just over three years. so less than 1%. and you know there is the 1% of the ruling class, when you talk about the other 1% with majority support, just what he said. minimum-wage restoration, full medicare for all. free choice. 90% support the breakup of those that are too big to fail. there's just huge support against empire and the bloated military budget that is destroying so much abroad while
the bridges and sewage systems and schools crumble here at home. so this idea that we are polarized, red and blue, that is the dividing rule tactic of the group. the emerging left and right to dismantle the corporate state. >> and how oftentimes we are put into this situation and again it's basically, it really doesn't necessarily affect it in a direct way but yet we continue to be very divided and like you mentioned we have so much more of interest. >> much more, 24 areas, prison reform, juvenile justice reform and the war on jobs. and it's just all over.
like reproductive rights, school prayer, regulations. >> it is a controlling process. >> they pay attention to where the left and right agree, they are not going to be ruling us, it's unstoppable. the thing that the senators fear the most for a governor, someone walking in the office and they can't play it. left right people come in the office and that is what passing juvenile justice legislation in 15 states already. by the waco brothers that oil and gas are lobbying to get acer taxon wood panels in southern legislatures they are not
winning. there's no such thing as republican or democrat solar panel and that means jobs in every neighborhood. >> you spoke of other 1%. i haven't heard you talk about that specifically. you are saying that if 1% of the people get activated that actually they can to the others? >> yes. >> there have been books written about the tipping point that you need to have 10% of people to have an impact. but you are saying that you really don't need 10%. i suppose you have taken into account the new social media and other ways that people can reach people. >> the key is public opinion. like 70% 8% higher minimums, once you get beyond 60, you have an unstoppable public support an opinion which the politicians know and then all you need is 1% or less.
average citizen becoming more effective and involved, do you feel that -- what is it that needs to happen to get people? because whenever i talk to you about, it seems like you are in a hurry to get things done. there's so much to be done. there is a sense of urgency in your approach. how effective do you think that is and is it just a matter of noticing urgency, is a process issue? what is it that stops people from moving at the speed? >> in history the greatest changes occur pretty quickly in legislation. quickly in terms of decades. we got auto safety regulations in my book came out in november 1965 on the 30th. by september the next year lyndon johnson had me signing
the motor vehicle and highway safety laws. on the other hand president truman recommended medicare back in the 40s and we stood on that. because it was spread out. i have this theory that when the public is for something, the majority of opinion, now is the time to move fast and you can do it with less than 1% of engaged people. >> but it was a very different time then. obviously they didn't have that white noise that cherry brownies to talk about the internet and all of that information going on, people jumped. and all of a sudden we have the entire news cycle. suddenly its way down. >> at less than 1%.
you don't have to wait for the gallup poll. and the one thing that everyone in congress wants unless they are ready to retire his votes and they want to be reelected. votes are more important in raising money. and once the message is clear, even to the ones that you think would never stand for environment and climate change in consumer protection and labor rights, just like that. and they had the ability to care less.
>> irritating for everyone. and it is business, isn't it? it creates consulting firms and litigation. >> we are seeing it for all angles. >> the regulations or thousands of pages. do you know how many they had in the late 1960s? thirteen. and you know, you can have a hip replacement or break a hip and get operated on and get rehabilitated. the american people see lots of inscrutable code and that is why a man like malcolm sparrow estimates that the fraud via computerized willing this year
is at least $400 billion. and we are dealing with fraud and complexity and all of that. and we are tying ourselves in knots with a corporate tax and we have lost confidence in ourselves. we have lost confidence in our histories and how we change things for the better. >> i remember when they were great advocates and opponents against this