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tv   US Senate  CSPAN  December 11, 2015 3:00pm-4:01pm EST

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the fall. >> and with crisis action. you mentioned the humanitarian summit as well as the conference i'm wondering how protection is going to be discussed and possibly be in the process. it's packed his back was the last part? speck out out of the "great. >> is absolutely at the center of the humanitarian policies and the opportunity that we have is to really think about ways in which world leaders at the highest of all can come together to make new affirmations or commitments work commitments are bound to that but i think that everyone understands if you don't look at that piece, it's everything. that's the heart of what we are trying to address and of course
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we shouldn't expect miracles but if we can find ways to build some new agreements and partnerships may be we can start chipping away at some of what we have been witnessing. >> i want to thank you. we know that it's a very difficult situation and we thank you for coming here and speaking on the record. [applause] can we move on to the next panel as soon as possible [inaudible conversations]
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[inaudible conversations] >> thank you to the final panel. she would've to step out of 3:30 tickets to an appointment at we are going to start now. >> okay. well, good afternoon again ladies and gentlemen. this is the final session and heretofore, we have had some very powerful and very personal
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presentations about the scale and depth of the humanitarian crisis and the failure of the world actually to respond. now having asserted a problem i'm hoping that in this session, we can move on to possible solutions to the problem. and to do that, we have four wonderful and extremely qualified commentators. we will start with and marry because as we are told her family is waiting for her in the instance of the don't want her to miss her 3:30 train that i would also but i would also like to welcome the ambassador from the federal republic of germany who has a very important poll to play in the refugee crisis germany being the most
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responsible civic citizen in the world right now. i don't think that's an exaggeration. and gregory who is an expert on the european end of the refugee crisis but also works for the secretary-general as well as open society so we are very fortunate to have you. and leon needs no introduction whatsoever who will take the discussion to an even higher intellectual level than we have reached so far which is pretty high. so the challenge is the worst. let's start with you. but now? no one is disputing the scale of the problem most humanitarian and national security. >> he's asked us to focus on solutions and my designated a job often is to be to try to
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provide ideas that are not on the turntable and in my opening remarks when i said we need to start thinking about refugees as an opportunity actually my 19-year-old son texted me this morning and is that why aren't refugees the answer to the problem and only a 19-year-old who is insufficiently steeped in this is in cynicism of politics and my husband did his will to counteract that to make sure he is steeped in politics but it's at the point here you have grease and here you have a country that has all sorts of economic problems many of whom are demographic in the sense of not having the kind of economy that is needed indeed that is true throughout europe if we had a panel on democracy we would be looking at a rapidly aging
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population and not nearly enough young people to support the generation. from that perspective, admitting hundreds of thousands of millions of refugees is exactly what europe needs so he is looking at that without the politics or anything else but honestly what that is and taking account of is of course religious differences, language differences, cultural differences, general suspicions. still, that is what the united states has told itself through regular waves of migrants that include refugees. are we focusing enough and we heard a little bit about this on the last panel. they are creating incentives
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rather than providing help to the refugees themselves. you are in greece, italy, germany, france if you take in the refugees you give money to build the new school coming you get money from the un to build a new clinic coming you get money to improve your infrastructure in countless ways. the spending is going to jumpstart the economy as a matter of fact i was just at a dinner where a french economist was saying the spending is part of what europe is going to need to get the economy going but my point is instead of thinking of this as people we must help if there are ways in terms of the public narrative and how we deliver assistance so that it is in fact people who take these others in and get direct benefits and the economy as a
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whole gets a new generation of young people that's a different frame. >> the loudest have been the fear mongers voices the ones who identify refugees with isis. i don't hear enough from the other side. it started with the prime ministers of my former country but the virus has now spread throughout the continent. how much longer the virus of anti-refugees because they are bringing with them the threat of isis al much longer can your
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country sustain this role that you're playing heretofore in opening your gates to refugees? >> it's one of the most serious challenges for europe and my country since the second war since the inception of the european union. it's an epic movement of people almost biblical proportions and it's the first digital movement of history so he had i have a new phenomena. my own country took in a million this year until a couple of days ago we received 10,000 a day to show you the portion and comparison of the discussion that revolt around taking 10,000 in the time span of a year and a half so we got the 10,000 army dalia basis and now it's
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subsided a little bit but the challenge is huge. we decided to live up to our humanitarian standards through to keep that our liberal aside from that we received in the regime and we have a no refusal policy for asylum seekers but there are huge challenges and backlashes and political problems, there are practical problems. the infrastructure is overwhelmed and this is what you refer you refer to, political fault lines. there are insurgents of xena
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topic elements driven by fear who don't see the opportunities but rather risks. you referred to the greek crisis and we went through a fault line of rich and poor and south and we have the danger of a new fault line between east and west in europe where the eastern countries are much more hesitant to have the asylum policy so that strengthens the forces within europe and that's dangerous and we need strong leadership. we need a commonality of the use and coalition of leaders to
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fight the movement of the right and populism that we have seen almost all of the countries. >> gregory, what does the eu even stand for in light of life at this current challenge which does not seem to be living up to its original values and core message? >> if we are going to come up with solutions to have to have an analysis of what is happening in europe. this is a humanitarian crisis and we have been talking about it as such but we have to pull back and understand that the political and extensional crisis for the eu with me explain why that is europe over the past decade explained a major crisis, the financial crisis that morphs into the debt crisis, the negotiations in georgia followed by ukraine and now the cumulative effect of the crisis
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has brought the european union to its knees. it has strained relations to the breaking point and the hero of the story is chained to the code chancellor angela merkel for doing something we recognize as heroic but they recognize as having been politically reckless. i think it was the right thing to do and i will explain why. we have relations are strained as a result of that and we have politics on the ground being quite toxic at this point. europe advanced because they were able to pick the low hanging fruit among the states and these crises show when it comes to foreign policy and financial policy they are not there yet. it's the most dangerous because of his identity area people might have had opinions earlier
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about russia invading ukraine and georgia and they might have had a stance we are lazy, we have all that but everyone has that balance and i would like to remind people that there isn't a refugee camp in the anti-immigration camps. there's a little bit of each of them in everyone and it's really easy as a demagogue politician to try to tap into that and that is what we have seen and it's not just in the sandbox. where are the parties on the rise rise in sweden, one or two, number one and number two. number one in the netherlands, number one in the governing coalition. it is a problem not to mention france so the strategic priority for the united states and for the the world i think has to be to help europe and helped germany. that is the number one strategic priority. it's no one else.
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i can show you it's not the russian strategic priority. it has to be our strategic priority. there are ways to mitigate the crisis. it's not hard to look at what the european response is in distress to scratch our heads and ask why do they promote a mission on the theory for months that this was about the failure bringing the governors and mayors to negotiate to be able to have the military missions by the time they looked up from their desks in june that was one bad analysis. the second analysis was what we have to do is be able to take people from greece and to bring them to the rest of europe and a count of the location plan that haven't been properly prepared and it's been a total of 130 people relocated from greece and out of the commitment of 160,000
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out of a need of the need of several hundred thousand. >> you have to now build a european response and support germany first and foremost. if you have lost the engine of the european integration that cannot go forward you have to support her and europe and the international community has to now play its role. it's not a european problem is a global problem. it was framed as a european problem including the europeans unfortunately this is a global response of the body to protect the refugees who are coming out of the capacity to do that isn't there. we have to build that. >> why does the united states not identify this as a problem but it is and that it's self-interest to support germany in more than a rhetorical way --
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we are not internationalist to the way that we were before. and because we are not internationalist as we used to be and because the humanitarian dimension of our foreign policy and the notion that our values are a pillar of our foreign policy. the foreign policy that was deeply exercised by the questions of relief and rescue has fallen away. we've argued about that in another time. as of three weeks ago since the beginning of the war in the since the sense of october when three weeks ago the united states took in 351 security and refugees so the first thing to be said is shame on us. but it's important to understand when we speak of the west, there's the american west and there's the european west.
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and they are very different in their political culture. so, the american failure to do anything for the refugees coming and it's already a failure because you know, this is one of the things we have to really talk about when it comes to questions like refugees and whether the united states government or any western government is any longer capable of emergency action because there are some problems in which time is of the essence and it's going to start to snow in europe and they will have their first winter and there's still 2,000 people coming in today from greece. there is the european understanding of the nationstates.
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every nation should be reincarnated into the state and should should simplify and personify the nation that is to say ideally the political boundaries and the cultural boundaries should coincide. >> that means europe as its inception of the national identities. what is happening in the refugee crisis that will exacerbate and the pressure is being put on the old theory of perfect fit and is being pushed towards some sort of a mopey atomicity for which the european culture since time and memorial is singularly ill-equipped. there are the attitudes towards the others and so on.
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there's the native american society are a natural society. we were mopey ethnic before we became multicultural or rather multicultural before we became multicultural ideologically. so when we fail to do anything about the refugees. >> we are no longer in a position to lead because the example that we present is not one that we can point to. all of whom come from somewhere else and should make us a model in the age of globalization whatever that means. over the fact we are no longer interested, bush and obama together it's like the two nails in the coffin of intervention
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and internationalism for the generation that each played their part brilliantly. >> it can be simply that it was a humanitarian gesture. but she recognized that europe had about inflection point. i don't know this but you have to stand up for the european values as they've been embodied in the european union's. it's stalling because of this crisis overall and she thought she had to take a stand even if the burden was good to fall on germany.
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there is another reason. she wants to address that. >> her example come ambassador doesn't seem to be spreading quite the reverse. it's the counter example that seems to be gaining traction. so germany is now virtually alone. how long can that position be sustained? number one, we might wish that the u.s. would take in more theory and refugees but very difficult and the environment. but what it does is the most generous donors that are refugees in the region and it's
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one of the most important questions when we talk about solutions. in the adjacent syria, turkey, lebanon, and help the idp, the internally displaced persons in syria there are 7 million tons of the knowledge there's about 11 million the u.s. is by far the most generous donor. of course that goes to the root cause. and here in the end, we need a military combat. and we are grateful to secretary kerry for leading this
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initiative to establish the process. >> we are going to go to amber e.. you wanted to jump in. >> i will leave on a more optimistic to automatic restarting the source pushes to end the civil war. we will not do it for reasons that we think we should have done it from the beginning that even in the beginning on why we should intervene much earlier by both in my case anyway a strategic one if we do not, things are going to get worse and worse and it's obvious that it's so. but otherwise standing up for our values is a part of our power and the internationalist impulse in the united states has been both. it's been a strategic calculation and a this is not just good work. this is part of our identity and
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power. we didn't go into those reasons. we will now go in because of isis. that's not the right reason to go in as we just heard it as an isis that is driving those. but that doesn't matter. the public now sees this as we must stop isis because that is the origin of the fear and because of that and because we are in a new election year, we will do whatever it takes to get the various folks to table and i would predict that we are going to get a political settlement. it will be is what some people go home and take the pressure off of that optimistic prediction and -- [inaudible] [laughter] >> i think that you're about to -- >> no, i would say two things. one, i think it's important that
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this discretion of the refugee crisis shouldn't be incorporated either in the discussion of the intervention or into the discussion of immigration which is what's happening. i think if you incorporate the discussion of immigration which is essentially what's happened in our coming up with these people numbers which of course are 10,000 in the global refugee problem we don't understand the urgency it is an immigrant that a refugee is a special kind of immigrant with a special kind of urgent problem and we cannot absorb the discussion of intervention and here's what i agree theoretically but if in fact of the the solution to the refugee crisis is going to await a political solution, this crisis is going to have a very long time and i see no reason to believe a political solution is remotely eminent, not remotely. i have no reason to believe even
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if the numbers supporting the more robust american policy. to bring everyone to the meaningful issue i just think that it's a counsel of despair actually to tie the hostage crisis to the resolution of the problem. the second thing i want to say to peter is that i think is actually ie see no reason to think that the economic situation in this country will not allow us to take him arch numbers of refugees. i think there's a lack of political courage in this country right now. ..
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it's a problem for easy to discuss. no one will get up until the american people between 1880-1924 we took in 4 million immigrants from italy. among those emigrants we got in rico, joe dimaggio, frank sinatra, antonin scalia who might be a dealbreaker, but antonin scalia and al capone. and al capone. nobody in their right mind is going to sit here and say that
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the mafia with all the violence is brought into decades followed anyway vitiated our -- 4 million italian immigrants who became part of the foundation of the modern history of this country. but no politician on the democratic side, republicans will no how sickening they are. but on the democratic side nobody is prepared to get up and actually tell the american people that there is no economic or political or security basis for a panic. they are fierce have to be understood and so on but this requires leadership. we don't have it. >> of 800,000 refugees who have been admitted since nine 9/11, three have been implicated in terrorist activities. all the implicated. social basis in fact. i'm just wondering why it is that i'll president who is not running for office is unable to
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voice these things, and that, in fact, the most effective for national security perspective, the most effective counter narrative to the extremely efficient mastery of the web that isis is displaying would be to allow thousands of muslims safe passage to america, which is precisely what isis doesn't water. so great rico why is that not happening? and do you have a way that the u.s. could partner with europe in a more effective way? because right now they are, in fact, a european problem because they haven't yet reached our shores. >> i go back to the motivations the legislation has to be the right ones. if the motivations is going to be enough, we have to see as critical for helping europe, our
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greatest ally. and a europe is as i said on -- if thatcher political innovation i think it's very strong motivation for this administration. it hasn't been. i also want to just rebut cinches niger something and a reset which is we are going down this path of seeing isis -- read but since she is not here something that ann marie said. russia, not sort has the same interest in the middle east as we do. not sure it has the same interest in syria and yet many european countries are saying we have to ally ourselves with russia. i don't think the solution in syria with russia playing the role it is no. is not going to solve the refugee problem and it will damage your because it weakens.
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>> ambassador, for the first time germany has not engaged in the war against isis. what has that done to public support for angela merkel, strengthen come weekend? are the german people still solidly behind her? i was told by president obama's chief of staff better support is solid at 70%. now that was a few weeks ago. is that still true? >> it's the second time that we decided to engage militarily against isil. the first time was last year when we decided for our stand a big leap forward to train and equip with lethal weapons the kurdish peshmerga in the north of iraq. and it turned out quite to the an effective support for the iraqis in the north, for the kurdish security forces. now again, we mandated 1200
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german soldiers to be part of that military anti-isil coalition, and that was a difficult decision for us again. germans have, for historical reasons, and deeply engaged skepticism towards military solution. but it had the support of the majority not only a part of it but also population. now, the support of the transfer i think is still strong. she has a decrease somewhat, but i think she has managed to convince many citizens that her policy is the right thing to do. but i would not exclude backlash also in my country. it is a party on the right that is rising, sort of, it's called
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itself and anti-islam immigration party. but so far i think, mainly attitude of the largest segment of the population is prevailing. >> and a source of pride i imagine. >> it is a source of pride and sometimes people are surprised how many volunteers, thousands are helping the refugees. that's a good sign and i hope it stays that way. but, you know, along the road further down of course we will have an integration issue here and maybe we come back to what ann marie said at the beginning. there are a course opportuniti opportunities. eveif we look at it from econom, from social, from a demographic point of view.
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there is an opportunity because we are an aging society. german this is community is trying to point that out. the ceos put the big german companies have offered internships and special apprenticeships for the refugees and they say we need the workforce in the long run. and, therefore, i think we should also, while being generous with refugees, think about our lessons learned for a long-term integration. and that means wringing them into work as soon as possible and offering them language courses and also enlightened them about our values. those are mostly refugees and migrants from islamic countries, and we may have to make sure they're part of our liberal values, and that includes a for instance, our attitude towards
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the holocaust. and that should be part and parcel of their values as well. we have challenges for europe and the long-term to have a hero islam if you will, and islam that is compatible with all the european values. it's down the road picture. >> i think it's very important that western leaders, and not just political leaders but intellectuals, writers and so on, understand that now is the time to refresh and renew and remind people of the valid use at your discussing. in other words, these societies have to be prepared intellectually for the right wing populist challenge that is already upon us. it is not going to receive. it's only going to get greater. and my real worry is that many of our values are assumed. in other words, you have a very vigorous intellectual energy,
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however cours of course it is, f we'll intellectual on the right, right now. these people have spirit that there really are, and "the guardian," and the liberals, most generally seen a little bit exhaustive and not prepared to actually go back to the first principle without being condescending here, educate their population, reminded the population about the kinds of societies that they aspire to be. because finally if the refugee come if integration is to work and if right wing populist or even fascist parties are to be defeated, it will depend in democracies upon the opinions of the citizens in these societies. and the education of those opinions seems to me to be a matter of real urgency. >> not our our thought leaders performing the role? i don't really see that. our american intellectuals
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rallying a countermovement to what we are hearing? you know, nevermind trump is 35% of republican party supports -- >> the refugee crisis, refresh ourselves morally. not just the lip service about our values but actually remember what those values are, why they exist, why we support them. it's about the character of our society. nothing less is being tested either by the refugee crisis or by the politicians on the right who are exploiting the refugee crisis. and unless there is some formidable answer to that exploitation at the level of political discussion and political culture i fear it is going to be a debate between energetic populace and lethargic liberals. and that's not going to have a good outcome.
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>> are not populist always more energetic? >> not if, they are not hard to review. populism is not a highly intelligence doctrine. it's really not that hard to deal with but you have to bring some passion to the ideas in the debate. >> i'm going to add, so let's get some solutions. one of the most troubling aspects to this weekend which with my colleagues who have focus on migration and refugee issue, how even the more liberal ones tend to be quieter intend to speak out about the security issues or the obviously, you know, not concerned but those are the people who shrill leading and that is an issue i think that should really trouble us. i think the response from governments, from the public society and the private sector should go to supporting the grassroots added in backing the refugees.
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in greece, in germany come in sweden their tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who are there supporting taking care of, housing, playing music for, teaching refugees. they need to be supported in a massive way. in a massively. as where the energy comes from. >> i don't think anybody disputes that. how do we do that? since they're such an absence of moral or any other leadership. who can we -- >> any other groups who were here at the beginning to walk out of the sugar participate in christmas or hanukkah during the holidays and rejected the refugees. those stories when you first get to a country, we have a chance right now, a very formative period of how we're going to proceed. 's act is the first answer. i want to say that the issue of refugees we talk about the graphic argument, it doesn't
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work was 25% unemployment were 50% youth unemployment. it has worked in good times and it is not going to work no. think of refugees as the next form of nationbuilding. these are the people who will go back to syria under the country. would educate them and make them become believers in our values. we have to educate them to make them skilled. they will be able to go back and become the engineers and journalists that's how you nation build the i send in your army. >> many already do believe in our values. we are talking about, a local was a secular city -- aleppo. we are not like the people who need to be introduced to these things for the first time. >> absolutely but the kids were being educated here can go back or stay here and create networks that will help their society thrive. taking care of refugees come educating the kids in particular, the unaccompanied minors is going to be the key to
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solving these problems over the long term. >> still advocating we work around our leader rather than through them. >> absolutely because they hold the keys to the kingdom. >> and they are a little bit hopeless. in this country right now, i have democratic front of their all horrified by trump and the next thing they say, they're going to vote for clinton. yes, what's happening to the republicans part is gods gift to the democratic party but it's a curse upon the united states. it's terrible for the country. and is not enough to just sit there and say great, the democrats get the white house and the senate select the cancer spread. because this is not the sort of thing you can claw back. it's not as simple as that. >> as you know from your own history, mr. ambassador, that once such a virus is released it's very hard to put back in the bottle.
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you mentioned the power, the role of the internet in this whole saga, particularly in jihad. why has the other side, our side let's say, been less adept at putting our message through the same means to the malcontents and most of them homegrown malcontents, whether in france, belgium, san bernardino. i fear where the next exposure will take place but inevitably it will take place. >> when i referred to the smart phones as part of this digital migration, not so much as a recruiting tool for isis, and what i wanted to say is that now even in the remotest village in
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afghanistan, people can learn how to make their way to, let's say, to germany. we are getting a lot of afghans by the way, a lot of iraqis, the majority is too serious but a lot of iraqis and afghans. that shows you there are people who have lost hope in the country, that the country will ever deliver the services or guarantee the peace, that those people maybe 20 years ago would not have even dreamed of leaving, now have served an instruction how to lead the country in the cotuit more prosperous part of the world. that is sort of the digital dimension of this migration. but, of course, it also carries opportunities. the age of internet as we all know, it might connect people in a beneficial way. also forged a commonality of
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certain values. can i come back to the solutions? i think we all have clusters. we ha have act on the national level, do a lot of homework on the european level. but we also have to do something on the regional and international level. and that is basically focus our energy to stabilize those countries, be it iraq, the syria, be it afghanistan where most of the people come from. that's of course not done with the big bang. that's, there's no blueprint. social magic wand. that's a long, bd in turn effort. it has to be our focus. >> that's what's happened that what you're talking about quite correctly as nationbuilding. but nationbuilding has a consequence of the war in iraq
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has been be legitimated. i think of what you're saying is that it must be read legitimate and what cannot solve this problem without addressing its social and local roots than in fact what anyone thinks about the war in iraq, it is important to understand that nationbuilding may have to be restored as an element of foreign policy. >> that would take an act of courage. >> that would take a new election. at the very least it would take a new election. >> so one of the negative effects of europe and its inaction over the course of first part of this grace is that it let the rest of the work off of the hook. europe wasn't anything that the u.s. wasn't doing anything. why should anybody else do anything in support of the syrian refugees? we have to break that cycle. we have canada which has taken
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25,000 syrian refugees. candidate is a small country if you didn't hear about it. it has signaled is going to take another 100,000. of those nuns were talking about 2 million for the united states. candidate can do it. brazil has taken quite a few. we have to be able, the musical has been able to take the pressure off of your. had to take the pressure off of europe first as you said by supporting turkey, lebanon and jordan. one example of how misguided the european response was. it a year ago europe was sending five, six, 7 billion to these countries the flow but not anything like we see today. this year alone europe will end up spending collectively in the order of 40 billion euros. think about that political mistake. you could have spent some money a year ago on the frontline countries. instead you spend 40 billion this year alone to deal with the
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crisis. >> as that to the creation of safe zones? >> i would. >> think about the political damage. the political damage, you can't even quantify that. we have to understand why these mistakes are being made over and over and over again. one of the things is a question of a global system of responsibility for refugees. there have to be more than what existed in which is basically 100,000 people. that's the capacity we have to resettle people we were talking about 1 million in germany. we have developed other means for people to get from dangerous places to safer places. >> we are talking 11 million refugees speed 20 million globally. >> i believe 11 is the figure for the region. >> but half of them are from speed and using the capacity is at 100,000. >> to take them from their safely to other countries. you don't have to take 11 million.
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most people who are fleeing complex want to stay close to home. in order to do that they have to go to school. they have to of water, housing. lebanon, jordan did not have the resources for that. >> this goes back to the question of preparedness. like most of foreign policy these days everything is crisis management. everything is crisis management. our strategy has almost vanished. so what we discovered was not only are we intellectual prepared, we are operational and prepared. but in order to be operationally prepared it miniweb have a defense budget of a certain kind, it may be that we have to have assets can make you. you got that stuff in place in case the weather gets bad. certainly anyone who's looked at syria and the last four years to to be a rocket scientist to predict the weather was going to get very, very bad. and we are just not prepared. >> before we all sink into total
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despair -- >> totally appropriate. >> okay, go ahead. sink into total despair. i think i should open up for some questions, although -- good. [inaudible] >> what was the safe zones look like if safe zones would be created? how they work and have a to be enforced with the are you against them, if there is one? >> as far as i can tell there are questions of taking out tough people like to say, certain missile defense systems. now it's much harder, but it's impossible for me to believe, impossible for me to believe that we lacked the military capability to create zones that would protect refugees. impossible. we could argue about the size of them, argue by the location.
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the turks hav have views about e they would want to do not want them and someone. but as a matter of principle and as a matter of feasibility, you look at the map we're not even talk about large swaths of territory. we are just talking about safe places. a lot of the people who have lived in the safe places made the trek, got on the votes, got on the votes before they didn't want to things we things we needed to do was to give them reason not to stay on the boat and even reasons to believe that the solution to the problem may even be repatriation. unfortunately, given the foreign policy, it's not inconceivable, almost inconceivable to think of repatriation as a solution to this particular crisis. but there was a time when if you protect the people and gave them a haven, and we could've found a different solution, which they would have much preferred
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obviously. [inaudible] >> that would defuse the argument in favor. that's what your from policy. >> do we have a mic for these two gentlemen? this gentleman was first. >> i am an unaffiliated private citizen. maybe peter good answer for anne marie but i was intrigued when she said about a political solution that she saw that i was going to happen. i was curious what might a political solution look like? i'm wondering if the call is for assad to go doesn't that essentially mean that the alawites would have to submit to sunni domination? isn't that essentially an existential crisis? how do you make that happen? >> would anybody here like to take that challenging question on? >> it is conceivable that the alawites themselves would desert assad if they believed he didn't stand a chance of survival, and
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it is conceivable under certain conditions that coalitions at least two or three years ago might have informed. we let this thing fester so long that it looks increasingly -- the russian move which is the most breathtaking thing that happened in a long time, and it's about give and they filled it. now makes things even more complicated. the fact is that the assad regime has not always enjoyed the support of russia, hezbollah and iran. al-nusra and other jihad elements have joined kashmir enjoyed the support ended before as there were or are of moderate elements, they've enjoyed the support of nobody. of nobody. and so we are where we are, which is what i think that a political solution in syria will not be possible unless about the dynamic changes. forgive me but when obama keeps it is not a military solution, he's right but the only way to diplomatic solution is to a
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change on the battlefield. in order to enact a change on the battlefield you have to provide weapons to people who will do so. same thing in ukraine. when people like wes up and others have argued for giving legal age of ukrainian army, it's not because we think they will march into moscow. or they can defeat the russian army pickets that the military costs by putin's invasion may be raised to a political solution to actually become possible. but these are the kinds of considerations that have not loomed very large or at all. that's what i think a political solution is necessary. but if the security of my own family were at stake if i one of those poor people, i would not wait for a political solution in syria to look after my family. they are feeling, it seems exactly the right one. exactly the right one. >> we keep saying that has to be both a military and almost simultaneously a diplomatic
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political game on the ground. but by repeating that assad moscow, we are really foreclosing -- must go, a transition from nobody is advocating that assad be the long-term solution, but -- >> russia is. >> okay, russia. but i mean, no right thinking person spent nobody you would break bread with. >> right. okay. >> i would just like to add something. when we say we need a political solution i think that's a concept that cannot be imposed. we have no blueprint, nobody can really wanted to the other create a political solution. so the effort now that's under way is to start a political process which will be cumbersome and difficult and fraught with setbacks. but the intention is to bring
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all the syrian players together with the exception of terrorist groups like isil and some others, and back that effort by the external powers and have an influence. this process that secretary kerry so courageously initiated has brought about is that they are all the countries at the same table, including russia and including iran, including saudi arabia, including some regional adjacent countries, and europeans, to devise how they can back and foster the syrian political process. >> but wait. we've got to tell, we've got to the full picture. iran is not just sitting at the table. iran is also arming assad.
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the battle for a level is going to be fought on behalf of assad by iraqi shia, lebanese soldiers from hezbollah, iranian soldiers under the command of an iranian general covered by russian air power. that's what, so we have to be clear about what come it's not just that there at the table in the and/or wherever. these very actors were sitting there are busy doing the opposite of diplomatic work on the ground spent also don't have a litmus test for whether it's good work, ask one of the refugees, the reader involved that is because there's a million refugees. >> the starting point is that we don't want to let the fighting going on in maybe 10 years like a lebanese civil war which lasted 15 years, and then all syria will be depleted and nobody will be there anymore and it will ju

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