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tv   Book Discussion on Disaster Capitalism  CSPAN  December 13, 2015 7:00am-8:18am EST

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an we are getting the thing. in fact, we are getting worse than nothing. frightened, cold, conservative conformist society. booktv is covered many of these authors and you can watch the full programs on our website >> guardian columnist antony loewenstein is next on booktv. he takes a critical look at companies like halliburton, g4s and serco that make money off of natural and man-made disasters around the world.
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>> high come everyone. good evening. welcome to the bookstore cafe. my name is molly quicker am the director of public programming your at the bookstore. welcome, welcome to tonight's event for disaster capitalism. we are so excited to have all of you. can i get a round of applause from anyone who has never been in this bookstore before? [applause] awesome. welcome. that gives me the opportunity to take this moment to tell you about this bookstore and things we do here. housing works is a healing community of people living with and affected by hiv and aids. our mission is to individual crises of homelessness and aids come to relentless advocacy, the provisions of life-saving services and entrepreneurial services, businesses assist in those efforts. that's what this bookstore is in
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addition to all of our trip stores you may seem rather silly but it's one of those businesses. that means every single thing in historical all of the books and lps and dvds are donated to us. and our team of booksellers and bartenders is made up of volunteers. that way all of the money we raise in the store goes directly to job training, advocacy, housing, health care, and other services for almost an former homeless new yorkers living with hiv and aids. we are one of the largest service organizations in the world and everything with that we host at the bookstore is a key part of the fund-raising for that event. we are incredibly grateful to all of the people and organizations t that purchase bt in our event programs. tonight we want to make special, special thanks to those who make this event possible by donating books to us with your personal to me left. you can grab a book and can purchase it at the register.
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we also have some free wine and some free beer tonight which is a really awesome, the way that works is that they give us books and they buy from our café. that when you get to buy books and you get a free beer and we get to fundraise which is really amazing. we encourage you to buy a book tonight to enjoy free drink and then after that to purchase a second drink and to buy a million books while you get to that which is really important part of our fund-raising. and come back and see us as well. you can help us up a volunteer your time, donating your old stuff, hosting an event with us just like this one or by renting out our space for a private function. we have beautiful weddings and private parties almost every single weekend. if you're in the market for a wedding or if he meets with you tonight she should come and get my card after the show and learn all about our private events as well. you can stay in touch by such driving to our newsletter which comes twice a month and is
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filled with free readings and concerts and parties and great events just like this one. you have a really, really busy following and we encourage you to come back and see us. you can stay in touch on social media. we are housing works of books and you can find the rest of our calendar at housing so without further out a deal on clinic at this show started. i'm going to bring up are too intelligent and amazing gentlemen tonight. these guys will come up, have a short video and they will talk and then after that will open up the questions to the audience and the microphone not entirely speaking in is a microphone that you can ask a question. so once we get to the portion just remember where i am at that you can commit to ask a question. all right. so for some going to introduce our moderator and it easier for tonight, jeremy scahill. he is an investigative reporter, war correspondent and author of the national best selling book dirty wars, the world, the
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battlefield and blackwater. he has served as a national to the correspondent for the nation and democracy now!. he was twice awarded the prestigious torch book award and his producer and writer of the award winning film dirty wars which premiered at the 2013 film festival, was nominated for an academy award. antony loewenstein -- the wrong paper, sorry. antony loewenstein is independent australian journalist, documentary maker and blogger was written for the bbc, the nation and the "washington post." he is a guardian columnist and the author three best selling books, might israel question, and others. his new book is "disaster capitalism: making a killing out of catastrophe." he is coeditor and cowriter of for god's sake because books have been translated into journalism has been a finalist
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in many global award. he is currently working on a documentary about "disaster capitalism." here they are. apostolat[applause] >> thank you all for coming. we're going to show a short clip. i've been working on a film for about four years with a new york filmmaker who is sitting over there. the film is about afghanistan, haiti, pahpa new guinea, those were fighting back and challenging other areas. the film is 90% shot. we have been to haiti, afghanistan and pahpa new guinea choice. we are currently the process of trying to raise money to finish it come to rough cut it to have slot money, talk to me afterwards. and here's a short clip of the film in progress. thank you.
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[applause] >> i know how difficult it is to raise funds to do journalism projects that are not going to be profitable. and one of the things that always has struck me about anthony's work is that he is a quintessential underdog journalist and set out to do a documentary with a global focus
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that tells history from the perspective of those who were being targeted rather than doing the targeting, is not going to make a lot of friends, and it's not good to make you a lot of money. i think if we lose the institution of independent filmmaking, of independent journalism that's motivated not by profit but the desire to tell history from the perspective of those who are victims of it, then we have a totally bankrupt society when it comes to open media and media freedom. so i hope and i believe that this documentary will see the light of day. >> it will. it's coming. >> i know it will. it's interesting because you could bring this dvd in your backpack and stream it around the country and around the global south and around the world but because of the level of detail and the way you guys
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are producing this, i believe it deserves a much wider viewing. i hope if there's anyone in this audience that can spare $10,000 speakers for 100,000 or 500,000. >> you should deadly approach antony after this. antony is a friend of mine that i've done difference with him in his native australia and now we are flipping it around and i'm hanging with him here. most of the way that i know antony though is through his journalism. and i think that's true of the opposite. he knows me through my journalism. i think there's a this very small group, a very small tribe of journalists from around the world who were sort of impacted and molded by the anticorporate globalization of rising of the mid to late 1990s that were of
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course fueled by the global south and then embraced by sectors activists in the global north. and then further had the outlook on the world shaped by the post-9/11 reality where you had a cartoonish set of billions in power in the united states in bush and cheney. you had naked, cold, so-called free market capitalism being openly defended or offended by the brutal iron fist of militarism around the globe. and there is a small circle of journalists globally that it made it their business to expose the machinery of the connection between war and corporate interest. and antony's journalism may not be well-known in the united
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states over people who really are interested in investigating the global impact of economic neoliberalism and western militarism/imperialism, antony has been an incredible voice in that struggle to get these stories out. i have a lot of things i want to ask antony about and also people should be think about questions you may want to ask them, but i want to start with the situation of refugees who are fleeing syria, iraq, and elsewhere. and migrating to various european countries. you said something earlier to me before we started this event that i thought was really fascinating and an underreported story. entities you talked about the para- militarization of the response to refugees in your. so maybe you can give an overview of that and explain
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what you meant by that. >> one of the things that is arguably the greatest star, one of the greatest stories of our time is the fact that are now more refugees looking for a silence, safety, but the second world war but i think the u.n. said 50 or 60 million people are now currently searching for some kind of safety. one of the things that less talked about, i spent time in greece in the book but the fact that so much of what the european union is doing, so much of the money they are spending, it's not about helping refugees%. it's about surveillance and monitoring and policing. so lots policing. so a lot of the a lot of the money, for example, some of the money that we solely was led to be given to greece under the austerity packages had to be spent on surveillance. has to be spent on monitoring and surveillance refugees. an issue you don't often hear about. so when the great party in power made and an arguably completely
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devastating capitulation to the european union austerity, the result was the also accepted apart from messy privatization other social services and realities is to surveil. that means leasing out israeli drones to monitor refugees, range of other things like that. so in some ways -- >> greece has done this speakers and many other european countries as well. which israel likes to lease out its of drones that it's a theme. rather than buying, you can get airtime so to speak for doing so. one of the things that's interesting about that apart from being disturbing is you have a massive industry that is pretty happy about the fact that there are now god knows how many refugees surging from north africa, middle east to europe, putting aside the u.s. or elsewhere. i think the question about that,
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whether it's immigrants from the south is that this is massive, big business. not just a question and one mind state of helping people have a better life. that's maybe to you and i would see it. how can we help people be treated better? but it's a huge business opportunity, and one of the things that so few journalists are writing about the reasons, who knows why that is apart from journalist not being good at the job come is understanding why this has become such a big business in which companies are involved. and greece is one of those countries, italy as well and ultimate with the refugee crisis says that have european union based on -- out of undemocratic brussels, for years many on the left, not so much the right but the left side europe in the eu as of the ultimate unify dream. that's over. i'm not saying the eu will collapse tomorrow. they won't there is profound disquiet in much of europe on
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the left and right for different reasons including the uk in saying what exactly are we signed up? what exactly is a video? what are we going to? are we looking at greece as an example has been completely devastated by years of austerity which is only going to get worse, or overlook is something which actually is far more democratic and eu in their late is undemocratic, and that's why think a lot of people are really questioning what the european union's future is. >> it's interesting, your characterization, the reason i think initially there was a lot of hope and a lot of optimism. i want to talk about jeremy corbyn and britain down the line, but you said, he just said that the austerity is only connected to worst. explained that.
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>> -- portrayed itself as a left wing anti-austerity push back against sort of right wing policies of merkel in germany, the european union, nato infrastructure. i was a public portrayal. but you know just sort of quickly moved on and said these guys are total part of the public in fact they will make it worse. >> for those who don't know, they want another election in september just recently. the reason i think there's been a massive capitulation, the former finance minister of greece loves twitter is a longtime illustrator one of the reason i think he left the government was he knew they're going to capitulate in a profound way. yes, there was a gun to greece said at a stop the political will. it's a long conversation where
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the greeks should made a distinctly the european union. that was a fear if greece left the eu economy would completely collapse. economy has collapsed but in a far more egregious way. they made a decision are alexis the press or the lives around, he's a prime minister, others around him, but that was too far to go. the reason i think it's likely to be worse, i don't know for sure is with the terms upon which they are assigned far more privatization of public service, farmer cuts to hospitals and public health care entities also farmer greater reliance on monitoring and surveillance refugees which is one of the less talked about increase as well. the reason that spot is having spent time in greece, spent time in this people seeing these devastating personal effects, people who spend their lives as middle-class people, forced to
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give their children lunch. like that is the reality and greece today which happens in parts of the u.s. as well for sure. but in greece is a testing reality, and the effect of that is you now have in europe, or i should say in europe and also in greece a far right neo-nazi party in parliament. the third largest party in the great part of the. day 1715% in the recent election. their support is growing not decreasing. the search of a far right militancy in europe is only going to get worse. and, unfortunately, to me and undemocratic european union that imposes policies that make a european citizen such as greeks don't feel like they're actually independent, most greeks i message we are not an independent country more. the decisions are being made in brussels. it's not made in athens. it's made elsewhere.
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the effect of that is that people are more likely maybe to latch onto a simplistic far right ideas which is, and ironically the neo-nazi party does have a solution to anything of course but it solutions argued bash refugees industry. there such a deep space provided in greece and that for years the police and military were in on the. so just to finish on that point, the concern that syriza faces as they are imposing with the fundamentally opposed, and, therefore, what the present is the challenge is for a major left party that came into power pledging to change the economic environment. the capitulate within five months. and the real reason for that because we don't know the conversations that what happened in the room between the eu and greece. with a bit of an idea. that's a problem. >> i have a two-pronged follow on this. on the one hand, i'm curious as to your thoughts about why
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angela merkel has staked out the visit she has. on the one and she's trying to appear as though, she's taking salafis with refugees and just try to appear as though, they want germany to be this safe territory for the refugees to enter. and i'm curious what your analysis of her position and also the uk's position is on refugees. but to respond record is something that you said about sort of fascist men occupy parties rising, i spend a lot of time in the former yugoslavia, and what's interesting is that in central, southern, eastern europe, in a lot of countries you had sort of dueling banjos playing for power. on the one hand, you have the failed neoliberal experiment
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with the u.s. supported color revolutions at all these things. on the other hand, you have a kind of red brown coalition that takes place where you've got remnants of former authoritarian government, milosevic in serbia, for instance, teaming up with neofascist pseudo-nationalists entities. corrosion out the provision of croatia is a borderline fascist who is straight out of some kind of a bizarre cold war textbook. you saw this in poland and other countries where there was on the one hand a rejection of neoliberal policies. on the other hand, and embrace of pseudo-nationalistic policies. so on both of those side of the scale, you've got merkel positioning trying to appear as though she's friended to refugees taking salafis, but in reality one of the main people leaving the kind of war against refugees and immigrants and on the other hand, you have these kind of remnants of failed
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regimes teaming up with fascists basically, or ultra nationalis nationalists, that tend to go more towards the right wing and campaign on issues like we will do with the price of bread, reject nato membership, you know, nationalize public services again. how do you see all of that coming into play speak with germany is a fascinating case. the history in the country is always close to the service to many germans, and this has been shown by poll after poll, are deeply mad at the fact they feel like they are bailing out the deluge of europe, greece in particular and others. they say they are sick of it so, therefore, let's ge they perceid it as taking a hard line against those -- >> by their banks that are tremendous amount of money off of -- >> completely, massively, massively. there's also in germany a
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growing neo-nazi movement which, of course, has always been there but that are regularly pretty much every week into former east five bombings of refugee homes and centers. this is a growing threat that i'm not saying they about to take power, trying to do a fear monger but this is a problem. merkle said it will take 800,000 refugees issue. up early from syria which is it is a case and happens, that is welcome if that happens but, so she is, this is not an excuse, but there's lot of things is juggling. economically and financially a number of greek ministers have come out and said in the last month when they're in negotiations with the germ essential they were told you have no choice. there's nothing to negotiate a. give me been elected on your platform, we don't typically making the rules. we have the money. capitulate or not. obviously syriza in greece i guess could've said screw you, going under own, but there was this profound fear of doing so.
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whether the sentiment within greece is going to increase to lead the eurozone is a thing possible. i think also just briefly the alliance with fascism. i think outside your it is we extensively don't understand what that means. certainly in my country australia to hear in the us and our five -- far right elements that exist. but really what i can think of massively in the mainstream. europe has those echoes in some ways far more than the u.s. guess there's fascism an in the u.s. in some ways as well over the years. i think the fear is that the failure of syriza as a major left party to implement a strong anti-austerity policy makes it far more difficult to other left parties to follow suit. so for them jeremy corbyn in britain who is not in power so let's wait and see if you ever get there but is much of the left certainly in greece is
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demoralized the unbelief. >> just to put into context of people, jeremy corbyn, rise to become head of the labor party. i know jeremy corbyn. i've done a lot of antiwar events with them. he's a very controversial figure but in my view, for a lot of the right reasons. i first came into contact with in what is working at democracy now! like a rookie kind of self producer and we would in a vm about the north of ireland and other issues. very controversial, very clearheaded guy, and a militant leftist. he is the equivalent of like medea benjamin sal ended up as the head of the tnc in america. >> or president spent not president. jeremy corbyn is probably not going to become prime minister. but to my mind it was like one of the rare epic successes of
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actual left movement to articulate their idea, to have them heard under duress. he was under fire even as we are pointing out, even from "the guardian" which waged a war against them. what he managed to do there is incredible because it was an enormous f. you to tone up margaret thatcher. thatcher who bragged about how one of her greatest achievements during her time was providing the space for new labour to rise. and in europe, which was a public of our bill clinton air into united states where he co-opted a republican agenda on domestic policy and to the commit very belligerent, hawkish figure on foreign policy. this isn't at the moment of summerlike jeremy corbyn taking control, i do know if he's in control, but official being at the head of the labor party. and yet there is this war against him from even "the
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guardian." >> i think corbyn is a faceted phenomena. is only been in a position for a few weeks so one doesn't want to presume too much about his leadership but the remarkable thing about corbyn is what he is advocating apart from nationalizing clothing set up and privatize, he supports academic boycotts against israel, supports sanctions against issue. he supports never using nuclear weapons which is a nice relief because windows thinks it's always an option. he has a fundamental opposition to pretty much any foreign wars. things that actually, views that are remarkably mainstream. these are mainstream views that are framed as far left and unacceptable from the mainstream. >> that's what was kind of amazing because corbyn and his allies made an argument, not an immediate, not through official channels, they showed that there is an energized electorate that was inspired by the ideas it
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wasn't about, i mean, corbyn is a highly uninspiring individual. he is a monotonous speaker, he's not very dynamic. he is a principled but the ideas that he put forward resume with a lot of young people and a lot of ordinary working-class people spewed he is the most popular elected leader in british history. he is not prime minister portia but he is the most popular the sport. the elections or five years away, when the leader then, of course, there are many sections within his labour party, you hate his guts. it was kind of funny seeing, i should say one thing about corbyn. he also pledged to apologize for the iraq war. which is part of why of course the great tony blair should be in the hague. blair is like a cockroach. you can never get rid of him. people emergence away somewhere as simple as a prepared -- >> sort of like lord of
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humanitarianism spent something like that. he was middle east peace envoy for five years and achieved, the middle east as a peaceful sleep done a wonderful job. but no, i think there's a real sense of, you asked briefly, i thought about this in the book in relation to refugees. massive privatization of all immigration detention camps which the labor party and the tories are both agreed on and the companies that are running those centers are often the same companies that are rampant in my country, australia. serco and gs4 our two of the largest ones. i spent some time in some of those camps in britain last year and the conditions are, before trip down the compelled to is atrocious the golf cart are not given appropriate credit public string and that's a key point because the reason of privatizing the centers really is about saying you cut costs at all levels.
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that means the cards themselves are not going to get good training. if you are going to be centers as part of the problem. corp. and has a massive struggle on his entities that could revolutionize britain in five years. if he stays leader but i've encouraged by an hocly he doesn't capitulate like syriza did so quickly. >> we are reaching halfway point of our discussion and then we'll put it out, remind people when you bite into his book is directed supporting housing works. at housing works is incredible organization worthy of all of our support and it's amazing to see this institution spread around new york. there's one not far from me in brooklyn. and it is such an essential part of the city right now. so i encourage you to buy antony's book on its merits but also know that when you do it, he's not getting royalties off of it.
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everything goes to housing works. so it's just an extra incentive to get the book you're tonight at the difference but also, and ask your friends in the city to buy from housing works. i want to shift gears and ask you about africa. of course, you have lived for the whole past year in south sudan, which i make him a used to work for michael moore and he would see if it's happening in africa, it's not happening without the u.s. media sort of use of things. it either starving children or barbaric tribal -- >> and it's only black people, they all look the same and the media can't differentiate that well. >> i mean, sudan with her an incredible process where it split essentially into, and backup media attention. but there's something much more interesting going on in sudan
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when you look at western interest. and that is that you have in the east of africa and across the endless of africa north africa, what amounts to a proxy war between the united states and china. china was very early to get involved in south sudan. at one point a controlled 40% of sudan's national petroleum organization. and that candidates present in the east of africa is largely military. china has been larger economic. you point out to me earlier tonight that china actually has troops deployed which i didn't know. spin well -- >> by china's 59 or 1200 -- >> i think 1200. >> blue helmet corps get under under the u.n. in sudan, which i've never heard of chinese troops being deployed that way. maybe you could walk people through because it's something that receives almost no
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attention in this country. what's going on in east africa and sudan specifically between the u.s., china and other world powers? >> clearly what's happened since nine 9/11 is that america has been on one level focused elsewhere. they have been invading iraq and afghanistan to bring freedom everywhere they go. so china was able to speak you must not have gotten the memo. we pitted the wars spent you are right. and they were really good. more, please. i think what really happened almost with virtually no immediate coverage, out of 54 african countries, about 48 or 49 have some you establish a presence. doesn't mean there are massive numbers of armies running around the countries, but some kind of presence, training, invalids, surveillance him whatever it may be, under the guise of helping struggling states to get on their feet.
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equity is about two things. one, invalids over the rise of china is likely resources which some countries have more than others do in sudan, south sudan, south sudan became a been a state in 2011, the world news nation. there's been a civil war. no one knows how many people have died but and international crisis group a investment possiy up to 100,000, maybe more. it's a brutal war and the reason it doesn't get much coverage is for the reasons you give. there's some media outlets that do cover it but ultimately it's too easily dismissed as black africans killing each other in a civil strife. >> what is the interest was what the western powers and china what? >> i think the main reason that the u.s. was so keen to be calm and john kerry called it like the handmaiden, was a way to have a stable base in east africa against the rise of china. it wasn't set to be like that
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but you had to bush administration, george w. bush massively pushing south sudanese independence when he was in governance. >> there's also a christian element. >> hugely back. sedan is muslim, south sudan discretion and idea of supporting an evangelical base coach was kind of a nice idea. so the bush administration, obama continued that but arguably not as not much support to the country can integration 2011. china's influence before was independent and afterwards. was principally oil. that was a time when i think it was two or 3% of china's oil was coming from south sudan. quite a lot. china is a massively growing state. sedan is easily framed as a muslim terrorist supporting country. some of the truth. in the '90s it was giving protection to osama bin laden. so that sort up with sedan in the enemy number one category.
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fast forward to 2015, and the oil output is virtually stopped because the war is ongoing. there's a piece of treaty that was signed in august of this year which is pretty much not really worked, falling apart. i think the thing is devastating about the relationship there that america is pretty much disengaged. america is involved to an extent but they are, the great irony about america's involvement in is that they were so enthusiastic when it happened and when the country kind of fell apart the interest waned. not least because i guess they were interested in bringing freedom and democracy to the middle east it seems for the remainder of obama's term south sudan will be a low-level issue for the u.s. the iron is on the same america's engagement brings peace and democracy, far from it, but in some ways america is critical of the regime that act. the government is a conflict frankly of thugs and war criminals that the u.s. knew
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about that before they packed them. anja people like george clooney and others who were pretty close teams on pashtun clooney doesn't say much as he used to but i don't know what he is doing, making films with -- >> married to an actual very good local often gets identified as george clooney's life. she was one of the main lawyers for the al-jazeera journalists who were jailed in egypt, and she was always referred to as george clooney's wife, advocating spent you also represent the deposed leader of the mobilize. and a dictatorship, it'd curatorships if they represent a sharia blood, telling his wonderful wife. they like to hang around with thugs that it's a wonderful thing spent i'm going to open it up in a minute for questions for this are gathered here. if anyone wants to start making their way, i have a couple of the questions. we can open it up and have a
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more freewheeling discussion. i want to talk about afghanistan to you with the recently. we had this horrifying what appears to be horrifying of the bombing of a hospital in konduz. at "the intercept," glenn greenwald has been covering this in a very thorough way. you have evolving, changing characterization from the tray about what actually happened there and there was an attempt to blame it on afghan forces calling it. been a beacon special operation forces. than the passive would talk about it, i'm still on a. there's this brilliant floating around the of the times headline where there were things crossed out on the headlines which is said, u.s. bombs afghan hospital. outdoor like all the other words in debt. but it's a horrifying incident,
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and it is very difficult to accept the current, and i haven't checked the internet recently, but the conversion that was simply a mistake, that afghan forces had called us into your special operation forces. it is a long history as you and i both know of the u.s. targeting civilian facilities going to the 1991 gulf war. it was the bombing of the shelter which killed hundreds of iraqis. there was the bombing of the pharmaceutical plant under bill clinton, the bombing of radio television serbia during the 1999 -- >> al-jazeera was bombed in iraq and afghanistan. >> the red cross bombed in afghanistan. al-jazeera senior correspondent killed in april of 2003 in baghdad in a u.s. strike. a reuters cameraman and his spanish journalist killed in the shelling of the palestine hotel. then the shelling of the
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sheraton hotel in baghdad urges you to journalist were the only guests in the hotel at the time. and on and on and on. the commander of u.s. forces in afghanistan general campbell said in front of congress a couple days ago that obama's plenty just keep kind of a small force base at the embassy did it counterterrorism and force protection is not sustainable, and that they would be better to know when they're than just 1000 troops. he is now pushing for a much more robust force. you have written about and investigated the kind of economic and civilian consequences of what the u.s. did by invading, occupying and staying in afghanistan for so long. maybe you can give people an analytical report back from your recent time ever and the concepts of what we're seeing right now in the u.s.
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>> so i was there last in me with my film partner thor. the focus in this part of the film was afghanistan that natural resources are for those who don't know under the ground there is an estimated possibly three to $4 billion of untapped resources speed three to 4 trillion sequence a lot. >> that's about the cost of the iraq war i think. >> yeah. and during the soviet occupation that was discovered, the americans have been there since 2001. in short, what we wanted to look at them with the film shows is that the afghan government, the u.s. government's wants to believe and claims that this will be a way to potentially support and fund afghanistan with the u.s. money and aid disappears or reduce a. so we spent time in an area near, about one hour from kabul, controlled by the taliban, and there's, it remains not started at the chinese was mine many
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years ago but buddhist relics which had been booed. in short, we spent time with locals being told on the ground that device had been made. insurgency has been fueled. they had the benefit are dipping shot that massively. the reason i mention it is, we also spent time in the north looking at a rail line which is bring oil and gas in and out of uzbekistan -- who knew afghanistan had a rail line. an actual train. so the reason this is relevant and port is about how the economic and civilian connection is made is that the use have spent hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in the last decade trying to support, so the claim, a mining industry. about supporting some indigenous organizations and foreign. it's been a complete unmitigated disaster the recent that's relevant entries we want to feature the in the film and i
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touched it about the multiple war in the film is that you actually think that a country like afghanistan which is been a worn-out 30, more than 35 years deserves a page which is almost guaranteed to be wrapped with more violence if you start mining copper and other resources. also the complicity of you is corporations and the government in that process. one of the things i talk to as much as it should be is that is the our legacy, nabbing the west? most used truth will come out at some point the you're right, obama i suspect that increased troop numbers. ultimately the afghan government is claiming that his government, this is a potential way to one of the things is a theme in the book as well as i can think of one developing country, and i write about this extensively, who are massively wealthy from resources which manage it well. that's because outside companies
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basically are screwing it up by choice. and that to me i think really says a lot about how we view our lives in the west because so many of the so-called economic benefits we are getting from mines an and pop under gave a potential mine in afghanistan apparently helps us to live our lives and have a nice to coexist with the people in those countries are being very shafted -- papua new guinea -- i heard it fuels the insurgency can keep it fuels the insurgency. >> one of the things i discovered when i was according extensively on the military companies is about a lot of companies from south africa, the united states, britain, australia, elsewhere started to do deals in the early 2000s where they would be paid in mineral resources profit. erik prince, the founder, created of blackwater, has a new company frontier services group that just announced a major
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expansion in eastern africa and, of course, sudan is, prince was one of the people that the christian forces in south sudan were consulting with and there was some question about it but thethey're asked to be paid forn cash but in concessions from mining. it seems like one of the threats of your porting, whether in new guinea or in afghanistan or elsewhere is, is the city of natural resources, but it's not necessary to oil. it's mineral resource which is a very underreported aspect of motivation for war. and by the way, i would love to hear from other people in the audience, after antony is done answering this question if anyone has a question we can move toward an audience discussion. but on this issue, tables that it's about oil. mineral wealth in the countries you have been reporting on. >> i would say that the war in afghanistan simply because of
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resources. likewise, i've never thought that the iraq war was solely about oil. i think that many other reasons. but i think what was one but not the only reason. want to do things that out very clearly is that we in the west, these particularly, australia, uk and many other european countries have made a choice to make various countries reliant on us. in other words, papua new guinea, haiti, i talk about especially in the book, afghanistan, but it depends on paper but they're not independent in reality at all. either economically or so and often socially. so it seems to me that there is a real need. would've things like and the film for russia to eight and held off from advertising nature of how much do know what our aid money is going to have much to we know where the money that many of us may give to a charity action is going? it's amazing how to our remarkable ngos doing wonderful work across the world, of course but often, i will
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finish on this point, someone may have read a recent part about the american red cross in haiti. they put out an appeal, got billions of dollars. it emerged usually at the american red cross had basically nobody on the ground in haiti when asked for the money, it of her problem. virtually nothing has been created by that money. no houses. in other words, this is a position which apparently is bereft beyon beyond reports buts made it in your nose the american red cross failed ms. subra after hurricane sandy. so to me it's about asking the questions about saying to often i think we view an ngo committee on the left at least as nine. ultimately, a lot of questions about ngos that are for profit or a lot of ngos offer profit. they like to call themselves an ngo. when the earthquake happened the ambassador at the time, i know both of us have discussed before the complete of essential nature of wikileaks, the work that it
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does, that he called it a gold rush. the gold rush in haiti was going to be massive business contracts to make a fortune. that's the way to disasters if you'd. is not to helping the haitian people. >> in kenya when i was reporting on somalia the entire somalia in industrial complex bays in kenya were all these ngos and u.n. government entities, the people, they have nannies, huge houses are none of them ever have to set foot in somalia come and get they are making competing like crisis the and all this stuff. likely we have bill clinton to save haiti spent and hillary and chelsea as well skip let's open it up a bit and we'll see where it goes from there. >> when you talk about sudan speeded speaker closer spent when you talk about sudan and competition and war, isn't sudan the biggest come of high school but in the world which is --
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[inaudible] >> it makes a lot of profit for coca-cola spent i have a report on that. i don't know the short, honest into. interesting because all he could say, i have nothing to sudan but what's interesting is an accident tradition of course has been allied with iran for many, many years. more recently sudan made a decision to align itself with saudi and support the bombing of human that has been interesting that they for whatever reason, have chosen to change their allegiance. i'm not sure the simple answer. >> did you save big on industry? >> you need it for mixing water and sugar and coca-cola spent that's interesting. i don't know. i'm sorry, i don't know. >> nice to meet you guys.
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i hope one day to have some slight amount of the success you guys have. exotica jewish $10 website that you're not going to see much of there. my question is that, i find it hard time to even though i really, the movie "dirty wars" it's hard to say i enjoyed the i got a lot out of it. and i agree with most of what you guys have to say. at the same time it disturbs me this seems to be like preaching to the choir and a certain amount of certitude you guys have on the subject james reed of having your private lives. for example, i can see a different point of view which i always hear the laughter but i get a different point of view perhaps that perhaps the refugee crisis is something that is happening to the people who are perhaps nowhere middle-class in europe, and the united states
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and its taking away jobs from them. at the end of the day it's causing their lives to be for the impoverished. it's not decreasing anything from the lives of the well-to-do, from the lives of the elite but it is costing about from those are at the lower end of the spectrum, especially those who don't want to represent themselves well. within the context of this talk, we are speaking to people who for the most part as i've include myself agree with your point of view, we have to look at the fact that people who make low wages are, in fact, their lives will be worsened by an increase of refugees, be it from mexico or syria, et cetera, that's something to be taken into account. granted to people from syria or mexico perhaps have less at this point, but at the end of the day it's not coming. want to go to gain is not coming from the elite. it's coming from the poor. >> your point is fair. >> my response would be that
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this action been a lot of studies done about the effect on refugee communities in various countries across europe. that is an argument that says that is going to affect people's jobs. the evidence of the long-term is exact opposite. the exact opposite. to reason. one, in many countries refugees are sometimes doing work that no one else wil would which is fray the case in the u.s. where let's face it, if donald trump becomes president, a scary thought, the idea of getting rid of the 11 million undocumented migrants, the country would stop functioning, which is a lot about the way america is at. but putting the issue as i can in europe the evidence is the opposite. ultimately it seems to be a sense that refugees in fact are helping societies and increasing jobs, not reducing them. >> the one thing i would add about this -- [applause] >> you raise the issue of
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mexicans in the united states, first of all when you look at companies like disney or volkswagen, most volkswagen sedan in the u.s. are manufactured in mexico. you can make an argument that the people that are fleeing their own economic desperation and coming to the united states are a threat to american workers. and in some cases even able to find evidence of that is true but that misses the much bigger picture, which is about huge corporations are setting up a system where workers from the so-called global south are in a race with workers from the united states, including auto workers, garment workers, a whole slew of industries. they are in a race to the bottom of the wage scale. you can reduce it to the kind of
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trump style level of these people are taking our jobs. first of all, most americans don't want the jobs that mexicans do in this country every time we do a day without mexicans in this country, it's -- automatic spent they are working well below american wage and -- they are being paid in cash under the table. and the thing is, i come from a working-class family and i get the same frustrations from my relatives who say those same kinds of things. because their perception is these people are coming here to take our jobs. there's no point in saying you are wrong, and let me explain marxist, let me talk to you about, no. but the point is, and i actually think the u.s. labor unions sometimes a good, sometimes are
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bad on this question. but in general workers are being pitted against each other and to turn -- but to turn on workers, like worker against worker, who benefits from that? the people who benefit from that are huge corporations, on a mass level employers. [inaudible] >> and again, i, you can draw all sorts of analogies in society to the real sort of villain is. on the one hand, you have big guns and little guns. is the problem in chicago that showed a bunch of thugs that are murderers that's their nature and want to kill? or do we have a problem with the guns in this country? is our much bigger questions than just does an individual person who flees the country to come here looking for work so they can support a family, are they developing? no.
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they are not come here with the attention of screwing the american worker. if they could get a union job, of course they would want to do it. we are wearing clothes, driving cars, consuming products that are made by workers in other countries, in some cases children making closer children, who are being paid slave wages. the idea would go to focus our energy on blaming the individuals were trying to support their families, to me, what i understand the frustration of individual workers who face those crises, it is totally missing the point of the real villain. i appreciate your raising this but mexican workers have much more in common with ordinary american workers than either of those classes of people do with tim cook, the ceo of apple whose bones are made by kids in chinese sweatshops. [applause] >> let's not also forget, i would also say one of the point of that is the number of refugees from the troubled countries the u.s. is taking in
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a shamefully low. we talk constantly about -- >> 10,000 a good increasing to 20 your we should get a few more questions and. if there any women who want to speak tonight, that would be a welcome thing. you can skip to the head of the line. >> first and foremost i want to thank you, to housing works and thank you both for this very crucial important part. i want to quickly ask if, which both think of naomi klein's book on capitalism and climate change. curious what you guys think of her work? >> i like it. i supported i think it follows, she's often said this changes everything, which is the book in the film i know it's coming out at the moment is almost like a sequel of sorts to the shock doctrine, her last book. her message to you should read the book and buy. it's a great work. essentially says the economic system that exists is not sustainable for a long-term sustainable world, and that
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simply incrementally trying to do minor things that don't really massively affect our economic system is not the solution. i think she also goes, which i do like, actually goes into the field and shows examples of people who are doing it. it's not silly some of it was pontificating from on high. goes into place in the u.s. but around the world. in the last book in this proposal. i continued for these is in a way in my book as well. ..
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she was sort of comparing the tactics of china to rumsfeld and cheney and it would have been kind of a revolutionary because it would've pissed off a lot of secretary leftist, but it shows the universal nature and to my mind the shock doctorate was some of the seminal works to define that era that we lived through with bush and cheney and it was remarkable. it is really hard to energize people in this country on the issue of climate change. it's not that we don't have or these movements, but
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the notion of the discussion of the planet makes more sense in the context of like the next "star wars" movie then it goes in the daily lives of people living in it is a big ask to say to people, think about what's going to happen in 50 years if we don't do these things, so i give her credit because it's an unbelievably obligated topic to translate into kind of meaningful everyday what do you do about it. where you outraged about it and have you handle that outrage. when i think she has tried to do is to put a human face on the immediate consequences of climate change and-- but it's it's a tough tough battle and i think for someone of her at this point in her stature to do that gut-- says a lot about her own humility because she is clearly not trying to soliton of brooks with this, but actually get people who know her from other
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things to pay attention to her really complicated topic and i think it is brilliant-- brilliant she is doing it. [applause]. >> hello. i have an addict out i wish you would comment on, which touches on-- scenic you personally aren't anecdote. scenic it's about the haitian earthquake in the whole issue of another resource which is water use and water rights, very important, after the earthquake when this gold rush happened one of the things that was in bad need of what is water and haitians islanders surrounded with mountainous streams, so you would think-- repairing the infrastructure and providing water your vacation equipment would be a priority, but planeload afterplay mode came and deposited pieces of fiji
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water and very soon all of the canals and the sewers were hopelessly clogged with empty plastic fiji water bottles, which i don't think contributed to much to the recovery of the drinking water supply. comments. >> anthony has spent time in haiti looking at issues. maybe-- i mean, what you are saying is interesting because you are talking about how we are bringing this water and then they leave all of this waste, but it's maybe a metaphor for something else, maybe an anecdote of yourself. >> one of the things we constantly heard was that routinely there were things shipped in that haitians did not need. in other words, not generally a food shortage. there was food available in haiti for patients. it was being flown them because haiti was being forced to do deal with us government so that
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us farmers could get access to the haitian market. haitian workers and farmers were seen as secondary then american worker and that's a profound problem. water was not a main focus and that is something i think people often feel on this issue that one of the so-called solutions is not a people solution, but almost such an obvious thing. for example, if disaster strikes the about what local people want and listen to what they say. don't always presume an outside contractor who's getting paid a hell of a lot of money notes that a. sometimes they may know better but often they won't and soap you haitians themselves were actually employed or trained or given any kind of experience, so when those left, which they usually do, what is left? a lot and that to me on what the
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reality is for people on the ground. [inaudible] >> there are three people here waiting to ask questions. when do we have each of you ask your question and then we will have anthony summarize and wrap up the night. >> i was interested in the, you made earlier about the three to for chilean dollars in afghanistan and what to ask you questions about your thinking about the changing face of disaster capitalism as the changing demands for minerals and energy sources especially and speak to the notion of climate change and driving transition renewable fuel. how do you think that transition will impact disaster capitalism and where do you think-- where
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will that change be the most and how about affect local people? >> let's get the next question. i'm taking notes. go ahead. [inaudible] >> thank you guys for doing what you do. it's important to me personally, so i just want to thank you. >> speak into the microphone. >> i have a bunch of questions, but i guess my most important when is what do you think of bernie sanders? >> you know he's from australia and may not know that kind of stuff. >> i read the thing in the intercept about the people protesting palestine and them getting the boot and like i guess my fear with bernie sanders is that it's just a smokescreen like we will vote for the guy and then it's not
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really going to be up to him. he's going to have to do it they tell him and then-- >> one more from you because we really are short on time. pick your best one out of your list. >> what do you make in the drop of prices and do you see any systemic risk of credit function because of that? >> last contestant. >> this is kind of a loaded question, but anthony said in his last talk about they were using no 11 as an excuse to do this endless bombing and i wonder if there is any sort of question of the official story. >> to summarize, let's take them one at a time. quickly referencing the three, $4 trillion in mineral resources in the lines in afghanistan and how does that impact climate change, investor capitalism?
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>> so, the short answer is that it should, but i suspect in the short term it won't, so when we were in afghanistan recently the issue of climate change comes up and people aware of the conversation. there is no doubt that mining three to $4 trillion of resources is a disaster for the climate. it leaves a very small attempt in afghanistan, for some kind of more green energy, but i guess my would say to that is in a country like that, which is so broken-- all i am saying is there should not be talks are green energy, there should be. there are countries that will pay for those resources for years and years, which is also the crisis about transitioning to a philosophy fuel world. bernie sanders, yes, i'm not aware-- american.
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i think has always had a blind spot, which has been documented a lot of people, but i was having recently that he came out with a strong proposal to end privatization of detention centers. i think he is a breath of fresh air. i don't doubt like a lot of people and there still so much hope in obama. i think sanders could maybe on some issues, i mean, he-- many issues of being fresh and injecting the reflecting what sony people actually do things about politics. >> one thing about bernie sanders. i know dennis really well and he has run for president multiple times on the democratic ticket and it was always great to see him in the debates and you always i think represented really well and was able to articulate things on a much
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larger states and people like him are normally get access to. at the end of running congress i asked him, why are you a democrat, why so you run as a green party candidate or why don't you advocate for a multiparty system in this country and his answer was a terrible one. he just that i cast my lot with the democrats. bernie sanders is bad on guns, also. i understand why. he's from vermont and if he would come out strongly against guns he would probably not be able to win his own see. i wanted a big of a gun lover crap i is, but he has to take that position and palestine and real politics are shy about treasures and-- but he is going to make that debate very interesting. but, is that being a useful indian for the kind of issue we have? yes, probably. until we break our single party
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system in this country nothing will ever fundamentally change. will legalize corruption, legalized bribery called campaign finance where huge corporations are able to purchase candidates from both parties having a witch with the wind is blowing, so sanders gives some legitimacy to this process by engaging in it. if we took our brightest minds either from congress, where there is not many bright minds or broader society and actually said let's try to run candidates that are not democrats or republicans and we actually have really serious political candidates. i mean, jill stein who is a candidate for the green party comics truly sharp person, very smart, good ideas, no public profile whatsoever. if you have higher profile people willing to cast their lots by a shattering the duopoly then you can imagine chinks in
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the armor of the empire, but until that happens-- but i would rather have bernie sanders then not. is tough to give legitimacy to the anointing of a bush or clinton or some other drop in commodity prices. we are on cnbc right now. c meckler, i think the job and commodities in many cases is a positive thing. clearly there are been massive production for the ability of corporations including shell to make a lot of money and the move that obama allowed-- [inaudible] >> i think there will be desirable in these corporations to try to find more and more resources which will be difficult with the current economic situation and a drop in commodity prices are means that to me is actually a positive if it leaves potentially to some kind of greater reliance on less
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dirty energy and briefly on 911, look, i've always said this i don't doubt for a second there was the official story is i believe i think it was done by bin laden. i think it was done by 19 hijackers. the question that remains unknown about that offend to me has always been actually real role of saudi arabia. i am saying 15 of the 19 hijackers were saudi, the part of the 911 commission has not been released and more importantly as i've often said for years if america is serious about fighting terrorism, which it's not, it would deal with saudi arabia. invading the same saudi arabia is one of the key global sources of terrorism in america prefers to-- [inaudible] >> i got my one clap.
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the way that bush and cheney and rumsfeld and others were able to exploit the course of 911 has not been fully investigated and, you know, the kinds of crimes that were justified on the basis of 911 were epic in scale. >> which continue. >> they continue to this day. of president obama's justification for drone bombing in yemen, is still linked to 911, the 60 words in the authorization for the use of military force is still the justification for bombing people who are toddlers when 911 happened under the understanding they were involved with 911, i mean, it's a cliché but we live in a semi- orwellian existence
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and terms of how all of these things are justified. i went to think lowenstein very much for writing this book, for the work he does come a force more questions from our audience and most of all to first of all books for publishing. and housing works for hosting that. by the brook. thank you all very much. [applause]. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> here's a look at authors
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recently featured on book tvs afterwards, our weekly interview program. two-time pulitzer prize when he journalist gilbert gaul described the rise of big money in college football. for better kaplan recalled her successful supreme court argument against-- for gay marriage and deal-- neil ferguson talked with early life of me doneil henry kissinger and on the coming weeks, we will report on the factors contributing to america's health and wellness. darcy olsen, president of the goldwater institute will take a look at the review time when medications must undergo to receive fda approval. also coming up, carl rove will discuss the imports of william mckinley's 8096 presents a campaign. this weekend, nurse and "new york times" columnist teresa brown will talk about the challenges patients face in the healthcare system. >> i really wanted readers to get a see


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