tv Book Discussion on Gloria Steinem CSPAN December 29, 2015 2:08am-3:28am EST
i wrote the story we learned about the and put it in the new york times. i would have liked it to been on the front page but it wasn't. so i think it's -- i know if you are involved in the debate of the time you feel strongly and might've felt pressure but all people like me had to go on over to get at that moment and then subsequently the finding these different panels. >> like the famous case involving curveball. the german intelligence were saying don't trust the sky. >> that's my case.
i'm not going to drag all the rest of you. >> once again people have different memories. >> man. you should write an article or something about the classified part. he said there is only an unclassified report. where's your article of the classified? i did not report on mobile biological labs. the group which i was embedded came across one of those labs.
they were convinced i was there reporting on them. they were convinced that these labs were for biological production. the 1st story about that than the cia issued a white paper saying that. and then i went back in june, tf whom is now dead. he was still in britain. one of the people who told me the cia has got it wrong. read the weapons hunt and synthesis of biological lab,
got it wrong. agent not live. he got it wrong. it into the 3rd article. these labs actually appear to be for weather balloons. the stuff, look, i, look, i wrote this book so i could talk about mistakes i made. it's important to look at mistakes we make so we can understand how to not make them again. but when you stop doing that , when you stop going back and asking questions that is when you fall into convenient patterns of thoughts that fits your ideological preference or something you want to believe. it is important every now
and then for all of us to get out of our comfort zone. i showed you how the estimates are put together: back and talk to some of the people who were presumably doubters. you talk to me. and i try to go back and look at the stories and really hope that with your article and others ten years from now someone else would go back and take a different look at it and have a greater understanding. the only thing we can agree on this the war as it was spot on what are not it was justified. that's why it's so important >> we only have a few minutes left. take three more questioners.
it will come back to judy. >> i just wanted to ship the controversy. >> yes. >> do you also have a related question? >> i tell you what i didn't do, i never wrotei never wrote about valerie plane. i never wrote a story about her. i don't believe my job as a journalist to zoning. other people can do that. i didn't think that was my job. i was so consumed about how we got this wrong. i have been out there covering their search day after day, hundreds of places.
we dug up everything from fighter jets. the iraqis said everything. i came back with a list of questions. that is what i was focused on. i came across a record," tell you how it happened. her husband had written story, an op-ed article saying that is where that they live people died begin saying that he had gone to niger to look at some of the intelligence. and so i began investigating whether or not that was true. i thought i have learned about it was talking to
scooter libby about the failed intelligence. it was only years later that i discovered that my testimony have been because i have misinterpreted is very brief notes. i felt horrible,, absolutely consumed with guilt. i had testified against scooter libby. but when i began researching what room number and what we don't want one of the most common and was part of the dissent. and they testified against him differences between with
these people told the grand jury and the fbi. i was very open about my views. once it was determined by the cia, determined long before the indictment there was no damage to hair, no damage to national security or any source at home or abroad. there was a special prosecutor. it went on and on and on. consumed aa huge amount of newsprint, more than that time. i subsequently learned through interviews scooter libby very early on was one of the few people issue strategy.
>> a really interesting colleges, manually turning not once but several times, look at the conversation. that's quite a story. this is not a casual reference. you have to ask. another one of the people who would not talk to along with fitzgerald. >> we promised to wrap up at 8:00 o'clock. with close out the questioning. >> four people event. >> it? >> there was no one ever charged with leaking.
>> speak in the microphone. >> the judge said your going to have to testify yourself. whether you would not testify in his own defense. your testimony teeseven you met with them on june 23 discussing 2nd string and at that point mr. wilson's wife worked at the cia. that was not correct. >> he did not tell you that. >> no. i had -- those references were incorrect.
a's parentheses two purposes , to reverend that someone was interviewing a question but if missionary heard in the 2nd was to take note of something that was interesting that the interviewee have been saying so when i saw -- let me put it this way, the 1st reference my wife works in bureau. if scooter libby had leaked the name to me he would never have said she works for the bureau. state department which was recover after us.
person shall it's always she worked at the state department/say. i remember that only after learning what are cover was. never. >> but that conflicts are other key statement. before the conversation. >> there were two conversations. >> the whole point of this book not that book which i didn't write. >> nobody hundred. it's a transcript. >> julie will be sticking around. >> memories of faulty and even notes are faulty. one reason i wrotei wrote
the book is i wanted to tell what i now know and have learned. the more learned why thought it was kind of a travesty that occurred with so much going on. >> final question and then we will break it off. >> different question. question. certainly related to the conversation about getting it right and wrong of being limited to the facts. i am interested, given your experience middle east how do you suggest we evaluate this? >> sticker out for breakfast. >> it's a pretty short answer. we think we know. i don't. i don't know what he means.
centrifuges by 2020. i know we found two facilities that he lied about that iran lied about. on fox news i had taken the position. when i saw -- undefended the interim agreement. i think it worked out well. but i think we have to wait and see what the president comes up with. i don't know what that's going to be. they are not making his life any easier. but i urge you once again many. i am not persuaded get worse
off that we know much more. i hope we do. i am not actively reporting that right now. >> we hope you will buy the book and buy it here in support of the wonderful work. politics and prose. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> tuesday night book tv in prime time features books about economics. saving capitalism for the many.
>> the 1st and primary reason is to punish people for antisocial behavior and to remove the threat from society. prisons are to keep us safe. whether they will rehabilitate the prisoner or deter future crime, those are really secondary concerns. great if it happens. very focuses for people to be safe from the threats imposed by the spokes.
>> saturday night a race relations townhall meeting. >> that is where i begin because they get the job. i'm protecting the public. >> that's us. they do look at all that. look at those rules. >> sunday evening at 630 and discussion on media coverage of muslims and how they can join the national conversations. and nine young people from across the united kingdom gather in the house of commons to discuss issues important to them.
thank you for coming out and braving the rain evening here. thank you. thank you. as you know, we have a very treasured and wonderful partnership with our friends here at six then die. we host some of our favorite author events in this beautiful space. i just want to thank esther and jackie and the people here. please give them a hand. they are doing an incredible job. we share a mission to strengthen and build a community. it is such a pleasure. she will be talking about her new book called my life on the road. counting up for previous books, bunch of bestsellers. we think this is her 7th.
and once you read this am sure your going to find it is compelling and engaging as a writing always is. to do a proper introduction, the entire hour which i don't think you'll me to do. the advocacy group she has conceived and nurtured, features she is given, campaigns she is organized and she is one. i'm going to mention a few of the top highlights. the cofounder of ms. magazine in 1972. founded the national women's political caucus. that was one of the 1st politically centered advocacy groups for women. and in 2013 she received the
nation's highest civilian honor. [applause] perhaps less quantifiable. this year impact of words and ideas and the political and social discourse of the country over more than five decades. in her new book, it is one story. the road she has traveled of the people she is met, but she has read from ideas she has considered from an itinerant childhood to her eventual discovery of what a real home means fairly late in life. a wonderful writer, superb storyteller in the woman his willingness to speak truth to power is given back month
for the fights of the rights of women, peoplewomen, people of color, poor children and pretty much everyone in society's margin. like many of you in the audience i suspect anger up on this magazine. i probably myself a feminist ever since. and i know that i am not alone in deeply appreciating you have literally spent your entire life giving voice to the aspiration and ambitions of hundreds of millions of women worldwide. families, communities, countries. thank you for being an inspiration. tonight gloria will be in discussion with another influential activist and advocates, maxine waters. [applause] out on her 13th term representing a diverse ten fascinating district.
congressman waters is earned aa reputation over career for being fearless, outspoken, relentless, and above all effective. an unstoppable legion of change. i grew up in california where she fought for the divestment of state pension funds from south africa in order to protect affirmative action. i determined leader in congress in the national democratic party, true champion of equality and social justice. if you had a chance to read the book you will learn the maxine waters 1st cause path set a seminal event back in 1977, national women's conference in houston. let's just say the world has never been the same sense and for the better. join me in welcoming gloria steinman and congresswoman maxine waters. [applause]
trouble is going to result. but this is the conversation. >> we have a lot to talk about, but we can't talk about it in front of all of you. she changed my life. i met her in 1977. the wonderful conference we had in houston. i've never seen anybody like her. and bella was one of gloria's dearest friends in life. shouting better all the time why do you let her talk to you that way? and she said this is the way
we talk to each other in new york. >> i remember that so clearly. if you know, you know that she shouted at you about how terrible something was. maybe you're right and she went on. i could see her looking appalled. and so at the conference many of us not knowing what we were supposed to do and how we were supposed to do it. so as days by we started to try. how a lot to say.
we dictated to her much of what we wanted to say to the minority plank she asked to join the board. all the ideas i had great opportunities for women, feminist. i was able to get many of them signed and the law. one that i will share with you was at the time i was in the state assembly insurance companies would not pay for the buildup.
with the start of these proposals became an unsolicited. my life changed. i ended up in new york every month or so and met so many different people. i had not met before in my life. here was this woman with a should have been a model. organizing and working. way outside the box dating a black men. [applause]
we organize where he will end up the gloria has written really does tell you she is what she cares about and the experiences she has had. it is wonderful reading. i won't tell you more except gloria does know what an impact she had on my life in so many ways. the story she told, i remember them all. when i read about her mother in the book is like talking to gloria all over again and she explained to me, what happened in her life with her mom. thank you, gloria.
>> and you know, maxine has always been in the forefront. just now i was thinking about your struggle in california to keep the cops from doing internal searches of women they stopped for traffic reasons. and there was just such another story in the press. but what we have discovered about the mistreatment of women, black lives matter, maxine has always been there. and if any other woman wins the presidency -- [laughter] it will be because out there proving that women can be
respected authority in public life. all of those women and maxine especially have demonstrated that women's authority in public life is okay, normal, good, positive because otherwise i think we are so used to seeing women only child-rearing. we associate female authority but nurturing and emotion and things inside the home. we co male authority as rational and appropriate. you know, i think that is part of the reason that it is hard for some women and especially for men. i think about it when i see some of the grown-up guys on television saying ridiculous things about welcome i'm
thinking about 2008 now. you know, big of these guys are saying across my life i see here. she reminds me of my 1st wife waiting outside. and i think it away they felt regressed childhood because that was the last time they thought they saw woman in authority. maxine has so helped to change that to open up the space for female talent of all kind in public life. and i am just so grateful to that. the problem is we don't get to see each other enough. we are really here -- [laughter] >> you know, as i said, i
started my trips to new york and met wonderful women. i could recall -- i could but i won't many of the meetings we had. talk about marlo thomas and those meetings. we had talented women who were true feminists command i want to tell you, you might be a littlea little bit surprised. for me to identify myself as a feminist back in the day, you can't be a feminist. that is why woman's thing. >> so wrong. to me black women invented
pass the last trees in indian country we eat in the home-cooked trucks, sit around like it's a trend on blankets and when it rains, the rainbow stretches from sea to sea and fields of sweetgrass become as regular as flowers. only when we return late each night or cabin lisi motorcycles in the parking lot. while walking in rapid city at your bikers they to his tattooed woman partner, shop as long as you want, i will meet you at the cappuccino place. and i assume that this is an aberration.
i'm trying to remain both inconspicuous and open-minded but i'm hyperconscious about a room full of boots and very few women. in the booth next to mean a man with chains around his muscles and a woman in leather pants and an improbable hairdo are taking note of my presence. finally the woman comes over to talk. i just want to tell you, she says, how much this magazine has meant to me over the years. [laughter] and he what i wanted to ask isn't one of the women that you are traveling with alice walker? i love her poetry. it turns out that she and her husband have been coming to this
valley every year since their first married. lakota warriors found refuge because of the calvary that got lost every time. and her husband stops by on his way to the cashier and suggest that we see the huge statue of crazy horse that is being dynamited out of the black hills. and as she gets ready to leave,
see that purple harley out there? the big gorgeous one? that is mine. i used to ride behind my husband and never took the road on my own. and then after the kids were grown i put my foot down. and he says he doesn't have to worry about his bite breaking down or getting a heart attack and a totally nice bow. on my own again i looked out at the barents stand and tortured rock of the badlands stretching for miles. i've walked there there and i know that close up the barren sand reveal is layers of detail page and cream it turned out to
have intricate openings. what seems to be one thing from a distance is very different close up. i tell you this story because it is the kind of lesson that can be learned only on the road and also because we believe that inside each of us has a purple motorcycle and we have only to discover it and ride. >> i love that. i love that. [cheers] [applause] >> i thought he would enjoy that also. i loved it. and even more than the actual story and the lesson that is taught in the story, the way the ride is so wonderful.
and the descriptive nature providing this landscape is so wonderful. it's like you are talking to her. i know that she had some other things, but i really wanted you to hear that. >> should i read this and then we should start talking to each other? >> all the years of campaigning have given me one clear message. voting is in the most we can do but it is the least. to have a democracy you have to want one. still i realize that at the beginning of the 1980s going to missouri to campaign for harriet woods in her u.s. senate
race and there are people here that remember her period she was a great candidate in her path was so improbable that no one could have made it up. she complained about a noisy manhole cover that awakens them and when she got nowhere near the city council she circulated a neighborhood petition and it worked. she got appointed to the state highway commission and was reelected there as well. all of this made her a viable candidate statewide. still, this was not enough for the state democratic party. when it came time to choose the primary candidate in the u.s.
senate race, in fact a well-to-do banker who had never run for anything but who had written checks. but she turned out to have something more important than her party's blessing. community support and volunteers. she beat the rich guy 2-1. suddenly she was within a race with john danforth and he was not only the incumbent but a former attorney general and an ordained priest in the rich grandson of the founder of purina. it was as if she were running against the entire patriarchy. and when i went to campaign for her i could see that all the electrical groups were working their hearts out. and they were volunteering in the statewide campaign. woods refused to budge is a
fundamental human rights in the end she won in areas anyway including one so conservative that it was known as little dixie. but in the final weeks she had run out of money and she lost by less than 2% of the vote and it was so clear that she could have talked about inspiring the founding of emily's list. and this went on to attract 3 million members and become one of the biggest in the nation as well as the single vegas for women in politics. but danforth did win. he took with him to washington and african-american lawyer
named clarence thomas. who had been working for monsanto the agrochemical giant they gave us genetically engineered seed and more. and danforth got him that job at montesano as well. as danforth explained, he was very attracted to thomas not only because he was a rare african-american conservative but also because he had also is ready to be a priest in his case a catholic priest. all of this happened decades ago. yet the impact of the loss by a few hundred votes goes on. if you don't believe me, flash forward to the morning after the bush versus gore presidential election.
i just happen happened to be speaking at the palm beach community college that morning and the campus does happen to be in a poor area and therefore a democratic area. and i could see that nobody wanted to talk about anything but the election that was hanging by a thread that morning. the young african-american woman rose to say that she had visited to vote by phone. and the caucasian had been printed by her name. in order african-american man said that he had been denied the right to vote because he was told that he had a felony conviction, yet he had never been accused of a crime much less convicted. someone shouted out, it's called voting while black. amid the laughter another man stood to explain that names of people with felonies has been merged without checking whether more than one person shared the same name.
and then an older white woman said that the bus from her retirement home had been sent to the wrong polling place. others testified that it was people had given up because there were hourly workers at lost pay if they were at their jobs. then why man of 50 years old said that he had seen the illustration of the ballot box on the way out and realized that he had accidentally voted for a extreme white ring candidate when he thought that he was voting for al gore. painful memories. that caused a dozen more people to groan and shout to the set also happened to them. out of approximately 700 people in that one auditorium, at least 100 have been unable to vote for their chosen candidate or to vote at all.
and i wondered if there were this many in this auditorium how many in all of palm beach county and how many in all the state of florida. finally a white man of 30 years old rose to face me. in the name of his military service to his country he said and also in the name of his young daughter whom he wanted to grow up in a democracy ,-com,-com ma he asked will you stay and help us organize the protest. i could feel it deep pull it i thought that this could be instigated by an outsider. not include the candidate that they didn't know that they were voting for and give them to lawyers as well as nonpartisan watchdogs outside the state.
i went home one the lead was out, the re-examination was stopped and also the cochair of the florida campaign declared bush the winner, calls for a recount were deafening and supported by the supreme court. but there was no recount standard and no time to create one. it was a decision that would be compared to what the 19th century supreme court ruling that no black person, slave or free, could ever become a citizen of the united states for its impact and for its clear
bias. so remember the horseshoe was lost and so on. this parable should be the mantra of anyone who thinks that his or her vote doesn't count. if harriet woods had not been defeated by less than 2% of the vote in missouri, stanford wouldn't have been a u.s. senator. if danforth hadn't been a senator, clarence thomas would not have gone with him to washington as a staff member. if thomas had not been visible as a rare african-american, he would not have been appointed by the first president bush to head and is in power the equal employment opportunity commission and then to sit on the dc court of appeals.
thomas couldn't have been nominated by the same president bush to succeed this on the supreme court. if he hadn't been on the supreme court, he could not have had this florida recount. if there had been a recount, al gore and not george bush would've been president as was concluded by a postelection examination of all uncounted ballots that were commissioned by 12 major news organizations. if george w. bush had not been president, the united states would've been less likely to lose the world sympathy by launching the longest word in u.s. history with more bombs dropped upon afghanistan during the 14 years than in all of world war ii plus billions in tax dollars given to 20,000
private contractors and thousands killed and wounded on both sides. if al gore had been president, global warming would've been taken more seriously. and also the united states would not have falsified evidence to justify invading oil-rich iraq is starting an eight year war and together with afghanistan convincing some in islamic countries that the united states is waging war on islam. and without george w. bush there would not be the biggest transfer of wealth into private hands in the history of this nation and ap ratio in which the average ceo earns 470 times more than the average worker in canada it is only 20 times more. an executive order giving an estimated 40 billion in tax dollars to catholic evangelical
and other religious groups without congressional approval often with the appearance of turning this into a vote delivery system. and without clarence thomas to supply the one vote majority to the supreme court, they may not have ruled that corporations are people in the right to unlimited political spending in order to continue all of the above. and the list goes on. we must not only vote but we must fight to vote. the voting booth is really the one place on her where the least powerful and the most powerful are people. i still dream about the veteran and his daughter and i wish that i would've said yes. i have no idea whether we in the room could have made a difference. but in truth we don't know which of those will shape the future.
we have to behave as if everything matters because it might. [applause] [applause] >> we have two microphones here. and you don't have to ask a question. you can give us an answer. you can make organizing announcements of any upcoming troublemaking meetings that you think that this group should know about. >> this isn't intimidating at
all. [laughter] >> hello. i had an abortion, i tell a lot of people about it. but you can see here, and i was wondering what your thoughts are on the new abortion storytelling movement. and what you would say, either of you, to women who are thinking about, whether or not they can speak about it or they can call it the truth about that. >> is not my decision. it is their decision. and it seems to me that political justice, social justice movements come out of telling the truth as much as we possibly can. it was the issue that made me
understand that we needed a women's movement because i went to cover an abortion hearing before a supreme court ruling. women were standing up and telling the stories of their abortions and i had never told the story of mine. you know, it is one of three, american women who have needed an abortion at some point in their lives. it is like to be marriage equality movement. and it comes from telling the truth, respecting each other's choices, telling the truth, discovering that you are not alone. would you like to address this, maxine? >> i can recall a young girl in st. louis, missouri. and of course my friends, girls
were getting pregnant. and there was a midwife who is in across the bridge in illinois and it became known that this is where you go in order to have your wound dilated by this midwife's. and all those girls would end up in the hospital near death and i have always wondered even though i was young why i didn't think something was unusual about that. and it was not until many years later when the feminist movement began to help women to understand that they have a right to make choices in and they have a right to good health care and all of that. i thought about all of those young women who were near death
and we just consider that that is the way that life is. we didn't rebel, we didn't talk about it, we didn't do anything. and so when they begin to really make this discussion take place in this country, i always felt a little bit guilty that i had not understood, you know, for so many years why women had the right to good health care and why didn't we have the right to good health care and why didn't we know that there was something awfully wrong with the way that women were sneaking young girls putting their lives on the line.
>> smack this book is dedicated to doctor john sharp who in 1957, a decade before positions could legally performed abortions for any reason took the risk of suffering a 22-year-old american on the way to india. knowing only that she had broken engagement to seek an unknown fate, he said you must promise me two things, first, you will not tell anyone my name and secondly you will do what you want to do with your life. and doctor sharpe, i believe that you that knew the law would not mind if i say this, i have done the best that i could with my life, this book is for you. [applause]
>> i'm reading that because it's true. i can't ask anyone else to tell the truth unless i have. >> i am a very lucky 81-year-old. >> we cannot hear you. >> i have known gloria for 61 years. and i want to ask you whether you have been to london to meet my cousin, the founder of the women's equality party. >> what i? have i met her? no, but i obviously should.
>> i actually recently finished organizing. and i was collecting a way to petition signatures and this was during the barbecue thing that they have. it was really unexpected and it was great. and not just a one-time thing. [inaudible] my real question is you hear a lot about the war on women and the crap that is going around. what is the one thing that you are most frustrated about not having seen come to pass and what is your most proud achievement that has come to
pass. >> collectively the thing that is the most important to me is whether it is some preference order domestic violence in this country violence against women in war zones, altogether it adds up to the fact that for the first time that we know of that there are fewer females on earth than males. in whatever form it takes in our lives i think that we are all becoming aware of that.
and so when people ask me i always say i haven't done it yet. >> thank you. i am the president of my college is chapter of the association for women in mathematics. [applause] >> we promote math and women. but we cannot do so without someone saying if there is an association for women in mathematics, why isn't there an association for men in math annex. how would you respond. [laughter]
>> you can both do advocacy work for decades. and i think that what stands out the most is that you have been able to push through. and what was the next situation? >> close to quitting? >> everyday. [laughter] >> what kept you going? >> if there is one thing that bothers me and probably motivates me, i do not like people to be treated unfairly.
i believe in equality and respect for every human being. >> what keeps me going is that the only thing worse is not trying. and then you wonder about if i have done this, it's crazy. it's better to try. >> i'm a jewish feminist that supports. [inaudible] and i have been moved that you have spoken out and i would love
and what has always struck me is that american feminists and so on, we have worked out this solution down to last and that includes the last agreement on water rights. and so that was 25 years ago. so the great sadness is that unlike liberia where christian and muslim women come together and managed to get rid of this type of regime at least have a democratic election and unlike ireland were women on both sides came together when government could not. it has not happened. and it's a huge heartache. >> thank you. >> hello, i have been a huge fan of yours for a long time.
>> the advertising is really such a problem in many ways and many are regarded in the industry as cash cows. what that means is that the advertisers have controlled most of this and that is why you see copies that aren't supposed to be about the ads but about the category of products. an advertising has a lot of influence everywhere and it has most influence in women's magazines and so i think that
until we are willing to pay as those drivers and not be dependent totally upon advertising income, if the educational service called ask linda.com. you can learn anything and it is a popular educational institution. totally subscriber supported and it has been successful for 20 years and linda who started at, she has a representative
employee and everything you could possibly want. she wants to be helpful with this and so she sold the business for $2 billion. okay, it is possible that we can support what we want to support and therefore get what we want instead of being subject to advertisements that control we see. >> let me just take one moment to tell you about a recent announcement and it's a little bit strange. playboy just announced that there will been no more naked women. and as you know she infiltrated playboy many years ago. it's interesting. the daughter of hugh hefner who we have known for many years who
took over some part of the management of that magazine, i always thought that even though she kind of inherited that if she wanted to do something better with the magazine and i don't know if years later as was her decision to try to change this. it's interesting that they decided that. >> you are a positive person. and i hope that you are right. what they said is that they were stopping this because there was so much available everywhere. and they were doing it for economic reasons. and so somebody e-mail me about it. and they were saying that we are not selling handguns anymore because assault weapons are
still available. i hope that she is right. [laughter] >> this is incredible. i thank you so much. and so much of what you have been talking about the importance of knowing the history and you also thought this up. looking back to 2008 i think that a lot of people voted in hillary's campaign and her supporters had trouble talking about race and looking forward to 2016 we could have a situation where hillary is in a general election against another man of color. what went wrong in 2008, what lessons can we learn and what
can we talk about in regards to this election. >> if we could never answer a question from a news reporter saying which is more important, excuse me? most women are affected by both. it is impossible to root racism without uprooting set some of as well. because to maintain sexual difference you have to maintain reproduction. so i hope that no matter what we will be 100% clear that these are intertwined. and i absolutely refuse to answer stupid questions, like which is more important. >> i am old enough to love you both. [laughter] and i'm very curious what it takes to achieve acceptance as
being regular or ordinary. years ago this did not exist and now it's ordinary. when i was growing up in the 50s in a small town. on our coffee table we had life, better homes & gardens and have any that we got from going to cleveland, ohio, my mother went to the fashion shows and in this particular one she got a subscription to it and i thought everyone had this at home. so i kind of grew up with people of different races being ordinary.
>> how much does ordinary or whatever we can do about that, how does that lead to a more general acceptance that that is the way that life is? >> it becomes ordinary because we do it. we didn't know that it was from the 14th century or something. we found it for the disaster of not knowing whether someone was married or not. but it's actually an abbreviation of a once called little boys and girls names, it just means mistress about marital status. and it's actually on tombstones from centuries ago.