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tv   House Committee Investigates Illegal Immigration and Crime  CSPAN  April 28, 2016 10:54pm-12:48am EDT

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[inaudible conversations] >> come to order we will continue with the second panel. last year this consent that the congressman from iowa be allowed to fully participate in today's hearing. >> without objection is so ordered their glad you can join us also the gentleman from connecticut.
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the second panel is probably the most important people we can hear from and we are pleased to welcome mr. ralph martin chief of police from the santa maria california police department with important perspective and we're honored you joined us here today. i would like to allow mr. courtney to help introduce wendy. >> thank you. again we are honored to have 20 here to join this today she is quintessential small-town america and a devoted mother of casey chadwick who has been mentioned many times in she lost her life one year ago to a homicide that a couple weeks ago came to the goal
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conclusion with the conviction. i will state that she was leading a very private life with strong family connections in the community and that changed radically but everybody who has preceded the court proceedings but just a horrendous paul and plunder by that government is almost to the deportation case. she is joined today for those to proceed to the survivors of homicides every also have a and i think that all the members are moved by
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the testimony. >> in the woke up one morning year end and we appreciate your bravery for stepping forward and thinks for being here today. we're also pleased to have mr. scott but also the congressman from iowa? you are recognized. >> figure to my colleagues
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here for this year which is very important stick. >> the decision scott route to the hit he is from council bluffs which is the third but to work hard and fear and love of the lord. earlier this year he lost his wife to a drunk driver a criminal who took a vintage of the immigration policy to jump bail and may never be brought to justice for his crime. things for being here today to share story. i'm sure my colleagues from
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iowa. >> with a unique it really gives levity. >> we want to see justice. . .
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as the german knows, this is something we hear too often without seeing actual results. not accurately reviewing the request of the local police, an unaccompanied minor being placed with his brother also here illegally, i am astounded this administration not only continues to restrict the enforcement of our immigration laws, but they do not seem to understand the middle on the 1st place. nothing can bring sara back. we can honor her and preserve her memory with justice and making sure this never happens again. scott, thank you for being here today. may god give you courage, wisdom, piece, strength in your fight for sarah and her memory and for justice. thank you for being here today. i yield.
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>> we appreciate your strength and being here today and offering your perspective and look forward to hearing your testimony and great for your loss. we are pleased to have mr. chris burbank, the former chief of police, nine years in the salt lake city. we are pleased to have you here participating in giving a perspective as well. pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses are to be sworn before the testimony -- before the testify. please raise and rocks your right hand. do you swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. let the record answer the witnesses all answered in the affirmative. we would appreciate you limiting your verbal comments to five minutes, but your entire written
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record will be entered. chief martin. >> i am the police chief for the city of santa maria, california. one of the largest cities on california's central coast with a population over 100,000. we are about halfway between los angeles and san francisco. it is about the brutal and vicious attack of santa maria resident. at the time of this attack she was gainfully employed where she worked the night shift as a satellite tracker civilian contractor and has
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been doing so since 1974. prior to that she spent four years in the united states air force. on the morning of july 24, 2015 while she was sleeping, two suspects broke into her home, sexually assaulted her , and beat her about the face with a hammer. despite the beating she would not fight -- give up. the suspects left her for dead, but somehow with her eye socket shattered and her broken neck bone, she dialed 911. as the suspect made their escape, one identified as victor martinez ramirez broke into another home and drink sleep through a sliding door where he encountered three and children and their mother. she managed to downline 11, and the suspect fled again. as officers were responding
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to my additional are now responding to the 2nd home. suspect martinez starts jumping backyard fences, but thefences, but the patrol officers set up a solid perimeter, and within minutes one of our k-9 officers find some hiding under a tarp on a patio of a nearby home. that is three blocks from one and one block from the other. arrested for burglary, sexual assault, and attempted murder. during the 4th day of the investigation detectives arrested a 2nd subject charged with the same crimes. eight days after the attack she died in her hospital bed unable to recover from her brutal injuries. victor martinez is an illegal alien for mexico who have been arrested by the santa maria police department six times in the previous 15 months. he was released from the santa barbara county jail 96
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hours before the attack. gomez is a us citizen, although he spent much of his life in mexico. he had had one current arrest. both are in custody awaiting trial. i believe in the federal and state government fails to do his job that falls on the shoulders of local government command we are not equipped to deal with these issues, financially or personnel. the arrest sheet of martinez is a glaring example of failures. i.c.e. filed a form i 247 immigration detainer, however, the santa barbara sheriff's department does not recognize the lawful hold based upon the miranda decision, which is a federal court ruling. two weeks before the attack he was cited as opposed to being arrested for possession of methamphetamine because recently california passed prop 47, which i will address in a moment.
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eight days before assaulting ms. faris martinez was arrested again for felony possession of a dilbert -- gerber dagger. he was additionally charged with two additional misdemeanors for two outstanding warrants for 10,000 apiece, one for failure to appear and the other was probation violation. he was released that day. four days later he attacks ms. faris. the state of california passed prop 47 in november of 2014. it was a complete con job. it was nothing more than entitlement. in the fine print and reduced felony drug possession by possession of heroin and cocaine and methamphetamine to a misdemeanor, citable offense.
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now thousands of arrestees are petitioning the courts to reduce their convictions, as did martinez. if the convictions are reduced to misdemeanors i.c.e. will look at those later ansi felonies are now misdemeanors. the city of santa maria as well as others are seeing an increase with homeless persons with drug dependency many of whom would have been removed from our state streets, required to appear in court and report to drug treatment programs. it is a combination of federal and state issues. i cannot help but think a us marine makes a wrong turn at the border is locked up for months and months, and yet we in the us soon toseem to be running a catch and release program for criminal aliens. when i hear of incidents, and people say it is a tragedy or some kind of senseless tragedy, i shake
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my head and say, no. when we do not enforce federal and state laws, all we truly have is predictable consequences. thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> hello. my name is wendy harling, and my life will never be the same after june 15, 2015. i am here on behalf of my daughter who was stabbed to death over 15 times and stubbed into a carpet by criminal alien found guilty of attempted murder in 1996 and served 16 years in prison. he should. he should have automatically been deported by immigration and customs enforcement when released from prison. instead he killed casey on june 152015 and was found guilty of murder after trial. my hope is that he never gets out of prison. according to the laws passed by congress should have been deported.
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he was in custody in detention three times, tragically i.c.e. released in three times, and he killed casey just a few months after his last release. from defensive wounds, we know that casey fought courageously and suffered greatly for her death. if i.c.e. and homeland security had done their jobs casey would not have died, and i would no longer be here as a part of our club of homicide survivors, which no parent ever wants to join. my attorney has written an article on the failure of deportation of criminal aliens. i would like to submit a copy -- i have got to go back. this miscarriage of this deportation process contributed to the death of casey chadwick and caused grief and suffering to her parents and friends. i understand the inspector general of homeland security is undertaken a full
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investigation of the deportation case and are waiting the report. my daughter was loved by so many family and friends, over 300 people came to her wake. casey and i were close. i can no longer talk to my daughter, hold her,daughter, hold her, hug her, or simply hang out with her or go out to eat, one of her favorite things to do. it breaks my heart every 2nd of every day. her best friend who came with me as support is devastated, as is casey's boyfriend. this is what i have lost. i cannot watch her walk down the aisle on the arm of her father. she will never have the chance of becoming a mom. she will never see her two nephews grow up or go to her siblings weddings, never be at family functions and holidays. the tragedy is not isolated
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and is occurring around the country. something must be done to fix this problem. i would never want any family to have to go through this. the pain is always with me. my heart is broken. i got to survivors of homicide group. the important thing i learned is that the pain will never go away. i am trying, but it but it is hardest thing for me in my life. still, i must find the courage and strength to advocate for casey who could net -- who cannot speak for herself. >> of course we will include that record. you did great. >> thank you. >> you are now recognized for five minutes. >> chairman, ranking member, respected members of the house committee on oversight government, i thank you for the opportunity of the voice of my murder daughter by a drunk driver and illegal
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immigrant less than 24 hours she worked with a 4.0 grade.average with a bachelors in criminal investigation. i would like to thank the officers of the all off police department. we would also like to thank congressman and staff steve king and centers ernst, fisher, grassley, sessions, and the doctors and nurses of the university of nebraska medical center. as a 30 year member of the local 464 is ironic i find myself thinking of republican senate member. my ex-wife were not contacted by anyone until april 22, after they learned i would testify in the days after my daughter was murdered.
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i am an army veteran, served with the 1st. the father was a world war ii medic. i don't want to share this to talk about ourselves but to point out the root family has served our country when called upon. my mother and sister legally immigrated to the us after world war ii to become american citizens. in my opinion the obama administration with open border policy has changed us. we no longer ask for immigrants to assimilate to our way of life. my mother and sister took pride in becoming americans are learning the language and culture. by allowing illegal immigrants to take custody of illegal immigrants with no controls in place for a person like edwin mejia, the man who killed my daughter or to break our laws.
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daughter, sister, granddaughter, cousin, nissan friend, bright, smart, nissan friend, bright, smart, loving, caring, respectful, strong. she stood up for her beliefs my friend -- my son lost his best friend and confidant. her mother lost her best friend. i would like to take this opportunity to walk my daughter down the aisle on her wedding day and spoil her grandchildren. she loves to fish. this year she wanted to try deer hunting. in the early morning of january 302001 i received no call a parent should ever have to. summons to the hospital. thought we had to deal with a broken leg or arm. i did not dare think the worst. i was awaiting something no father should have to go through, identify their child. her spinal cord was snapped.
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we identified her by her tattoo on her rib cage,cage, live, laugh, love, and a crucifix. the neurosurgeon said on the scale of one to ten her chance for recovery was zero an organ donor. her mother and i kept her on life support three days to allow organ recipients and doctors to prepare themselves for harvesting. through her unselfish act she was able to save six individuals. she also helped four to five dozen more through donation of tissue, tendons, and bones. i learned he had been apprehended in arizona, yet our government allowed him to be turned over to his brother from another illegal immigrant due to pressure being applied, edwin is now on the i.c.e. top ten most
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wanted list. unlawful, illegal. whenwhen apprehended in arizona he was released to another illegal. when the omaha police replaced ice five times requesting a detainer we reached with unlawful illegal. he was released four days in jail and his brother posted 10 percent of $50,000. it cost more to bury my daughter that if her family and friends have been given a death sentence. my family understands our questions have not but answered, but i i would like to go on record with the following. a local level by friends are collecting signatures against jeffrey mark ouzo to remove him from the bench. he failed to show up for minor traffic infractions have presented a flight risk. our question of the federal level, who is accountable?
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harry truman used to say, thesay, the buck stops here. this is not only a case of a ministration. he recently said bill for another illegal immigrant, vehicular homicide and ammann i. i.c.e. set a detainer on him they demanded answers and the sender has demanded answers. ifif they cannot get answers from a family from iowa -- sorry. held accountable. sorry. has anyone been held accountable at the local level? two and a half months without answers. when can we expect them? the police department did their jobs. how is it an illegal brother was able to bail him out of disappear? do i get a choice which laws to follow, if not, what
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doesn't unlawful or illegal hundred mean? when officials of i.c.e., would someone please explain to me i would daughter had a spinal cord and the skull fractured in 2000into thousand places by 6,000-pound pig with a thousand pounds of equipment traveling at 70 to 80 miles per hour in an underaged three times over the legal limit dragracing from honduras nonviolent? explain that to me. what information do we have on his family and friends? who owned the vehicle that killed my daughter. i understand it is another illegal from wichita, kansas. driving without license, registration, insurance, did not show up for obligations for minor traffic violations. it was assumed he would show up for motor vehicle homicide.
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has a notice been issued and although steps in place? does he have a cellular card? what is being done as a country and honduras? he was apprehended in arizona. was a file created? if so, what information was communicated? if the obama administration position on this is not to enforce immigration law, what is the purpose of i.c.e. and our tax dollars being wasted? the only incentive to capture him is $5,000 reward through crimestoppers. what other tools and means are available to a national law enforcement and its people and honduras? mexico, the united states to turn him to the authorities? in closing, my family and friends will not stop until people at the local and federal level are held accountable to her killer and brought to justice. when edwin is caught, he will face a 20 year prison sentence and eight to ten
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eight to ten with good behavior. i family is facing a sentence without her, unavoidable and would not have occurred if the failed policies of the obama administration and the laws allowed to be ignored and incompetent judicial system. the last time i saw sarah was january 302001. she graduated. now i carry a heart on the cross with a crucifix around my neck. when sarah was young she had a patch of hair on her back. i would tease teaser by calling her monkey girl. she hated it, but she knew it came from a father's love. i love you forever, monkey girl. thank you for this opportunity to share her story. >> thank you for your personal service to this country and for the strength to be able to offer that statement here today. god bless you. between yourself and the
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woman, thank youwoman, thank you for sharing your stories. we now recognize chief burbank for five minutes. >> to begin, i would like to say i am sincerely sorry for your loss. you deserve much better. we are experiencing a modern transformation of our world and nation. technology in the migration of people is a dynamic driver of change. introduced cultural, religious, and intellectual diversity creating avenues for multicultural competitiveness, robust scientific evidence indicating immigrants contribute economically, improve the local tax base, stabilize economy, and drive down crime whether they move
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lawfully or unlawfully. unlawfully. some of the highest cities have experienced the steepest declines in crime. coincidentally this dramatic changes marked an increase in bias, and equity, vitriol command fear. there every -- ever increasingly stereotyped. research conducted over the past 30 years has consistently shown that immigrants are less likely to commit serious crimes or be incarcerated. this incarcerated. this holds true whether documented are undocumented and regardless of country of origin. it is a fact, crime has decreased dramatically. there is no demonstrable correlation between immigrants and crime, additionally, no documented relationship between enhanced immigration enforcement and reduced crime. public policy must be driven by evidence and not anecdotes. we have demonstrated that enforcement, rest, incarceration, and force out the most effective tools to
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prevent crime. as incarceration rates soared in the 90s,90s, so did police officers, search warrants, and other enforcement activities. we will have war against drugs, gangs, and violent crime increase. the lasting legacy was not crime reduction but historically high incarceration rates, zero tolerance approaches, stopping frisk, and the over incarceration of individuals of color harming our communities far more than helping. the mistrust of communities of color we face is the result of hard on crime in different enforcement tactics perpetrated on they were is labeled high crime. people experience their lives within neighborhoods. early at a national, state, or city level, especially evident in socioeconomically affected communities. must understand and address life issues, education and health, housing, safety, and
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transportation. exercise their community policing and best accomplished at a local level capable of a nimble, small government approach to address life issues. created a double standard. immigrants not only face potential criminal penalty assessed attention without due process and ultimately deportation. immigration enforcement can only be accomplished through racial profiling. stop for pretext traffic violations, questioned about status, detained, transferred to the custody of i.c.e. and deported without notification to families. conversely adjudicated designed to be an alternative.
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less than 40 percent. education or knowledge, laws and traffic counts, gamecube participation and inclusion is the way out of addiction. when communities or groups of people are afraid to participate, we systematically isolate them creating a negative environment where success is difficult if not impossible. studies have shown immigration enforcement is not viewed as a legitimate public safety tool nor does it serve to enhance community well-being of further divides communities anonymize the difficult job why enforcement has. certain races. we are still working to prepare the mistrust, resentment, and rage. it is not surprising why
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enforcement officials across the nation are troubled the proposition a mandatory immigration enforcement that appear motivated by prejudice and are likely to result in increased crime. the time has come to accomplish comprehensive immigration reform. the must bring millions of people contributing to our economy adding value to our lives come out of the shadows, and intoshadows, and into mainstream. best accomplished but we are partners and efforts with all members of society we will never solve immigration issues you deportation. thank you. >> we got a lot to talk about, mr. burbank. you are in totally the wrong planet. we will get after that. there isthat. there is a vote on the floor. our apologies, but the committee will recess. we have three votes, and then we will come back and resume the questioning portion. the committee will
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stand in recess and we will reconvene the sooner than 1:30 p.m. thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [silence] >> the committee on oversight and government reform will return to order and we will start the questioning portion. we have excused ms. harling.
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we will continue now with the questioning part and start with the children from georgia for five minutes. >> thank you. i would like to thank each of you for being here and your stories are extremely moving, and our hearts go out to you. i spoke yesterday with the sheriff of gwinnett county, which is the 2nd most -- number two in terms of criminal aliens being dropped off, 2nd only to harris county, texas. he has law enforcement in the county and informed me, as i just mentioned, it is number two. of the veteran of law enforcement. from your own experience, your knowledge, when an
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illegal alien is released, are you notified? >> no, sir. >> by anyone? >> we are not notified by anyone. >> so we heard testimony this morning that i.c.e. notifies the states of all those who are released, and then that information filters down. you are saying that that is not the case? >> we do not receive any direct communication from i.c.e. the only way we would know is what they talked about earlier, the victim would be notified, and if they fill out a form the local sheriff's department departmentsheriff's department is supposed to notify us so that we can talk to the victim. >> okay. so the law enforcement notification system, is it working? >> no, sir. >> what is it doing? if it is not working, what
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is the value, if any? >> i would have to take you back years ago when ins or i.c.e. used to have agents in county jails. most municipal police departments don't hold them into the police departments. they book amanda county jail. now we arrested 6,000 people last year, and we would keep them, book them into our custody and then within six to eight hours we transfer them to the sheriff's department. what we do at that point is fill out a pretrial service, and about three quarters of the bottom of the page it says, does the police officer request a victim of you, and in the case of martinez we check yes. that is about the only time we have the ability to communicate with i.c.e.
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now the i.c.e. does not have officers in the county jails full-time, they just show up in the morning, look at the scrolls were datebook, if you will. but that does not serve any purpose because many times they will bail out the night before. it is not working. >> is it true that when a criminal alien is released from prison on parole that officers, local law enforcement must be assigned to check on them? >> no, we are not assigned to check on them at all. when they are released from county jail or state prison, they are taken by i.c.e. to a processing center and then down to los angeles where they are supposed to be released. they never released him from the prison. they always do it in los angeles. >> how does the parole work? does the state assigned someone to watch over them? >> the state of california
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has gotten rid of almost all parole. it has become localized for the probation department, which is really not equipped to deal with it. >> you're saying local level is not handling it. >> no, we are not being notified. >> what is happening? no parole, no accountability , they are not washed at all? >> if they are watched in our county it would be by the local probation department. >> how do they get involved? at what point -- when these people are released and put on parole, who is looking after them, and how does the process work? >> it would be a county probation officer assigned a case and he or she may see them once a month or maybe never. >> that he was paying for it? >> congressman, in the county is the probation
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department,department, county probation. >> the taxpayers. >> yes, sir. >> we have i.c.e. responsible for releasing these people that should be deported. but in many cases no one is looking out for them. when there are cases -- in other words, your local county is having to pick up the tab for the lack of work being done by i.c.e. >> that would be a fair assessment, and not only that but we are having to pay for all the investigations that result from us arresting these people, and the local district attorney's office is having to pay to prosecute. and once they are found guilty they have to go to a state prison. so the local, county, or state is paying for all of that. >> i appreciate this, but i'm shocked we have a conflict and testimony from what we heard earlier from ms. sarah saldana saying all the states are being notified and it is filtering down, and that obviously is
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not taking place, at least in your case. i think this needs further research and investigation. >> recognize the gentleman from massachusetts for five minutes. >> thank you very much. like the other members before me, i want to say to victims families, thank you for your coverage and willingness to come forward and try to make sure this does not happen again. mr. martin and burbank, thank you for your anticipation. can i ask you, the contact that you have had with any federal law enforcement, can you tell me if they have been -- i am trying to explore the communication
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between federal agencies and victims such as yourself and families. can you tell me about that? >> no, i have not heard from the federal government or homeland security or -- >> i.c.e.? >> no, nothing. not congressman -- blumenthal, he had gotten things rolling pretty good for casey's case when i saw him in hartford last year. so i know for a fact that homeland security is investigating that case, my daughter's case. we are just waiting for the report. >> okay. mr. martin, could you -- mr. nol me about the contact that your department has on a
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regular basis with i.c.e.? do they inform you when there could be someone in your jurisdiction that is under a deportation order? is there any communication going on between your department? >> we have limited communication with i.c.e. recently homeland security built a i.c.e. facility in santa maria. >> between los angeles and san francisco. >> okay. >> however, it is not a detention center. it is simply a processing center. and i am referring to i.c.e. when they pick up people who have done their time in a state prisoner county jail, they take them to the processing center for a few hours and then by then take them five next line or los angeles. the center is there but only open during the day and is simply of ross center. >> that's it? >> yes, sir. >> tell me, there is a
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description of decriminalization of possession of heroin. >> yes. >> math, others. how has thatlayed into your ability to do your job? >> it has increased property crimes over 20 percent, so we are seeing an increase in homelessness. some of these people are illegal aliens living on the streets. so when they pass that law, it really took our ability away to force them into a court order to force them even into rehabilitation of probation. >> i see. all right. well, again, i am sorry for your -- do you have anything else you wish to add in terms of contact with i.c.e. or federal authorities were there inability or
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unwillingness to do so? >> i had one gentleman from i.c.e. what we were dealing with, he was task force, and he was 100 percent grade, trying to give me information, and if they catch the killer of my daughter, he was going to hand carry it out and have me fill it out. whoever his superior is did not want that to happen. i just asked him, to see what do with me? and then probably about a month later i'm trying to get some answers. i got contact numbers from jake up to the minneapolis, st. paul area. a couple of his supervisors called back and basically it was general information, about the same thing as sarah saldana. two days before i came here sarah's advisor called and said she wanted to reach out to me.
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i told them i was not interested. what part of no don't you get? no means no. that's it. >> thank you. i see my time has expired. i think the witnesses. >> the gentleman from florida, chairman of the subcommittee on national security for five minutes. >> thank you and thanks to the witnesses. you have my sympathies. this is a terrible thing. it was preventable. had our government simply done its job, it's core duty , you guys would have your loved ones here today, and i appreciated in your testimony pointing out that this is happening across our country, and i was in law enforcement as a prosecutor, and some random american commits a crime and you want to prevented. have someone in custody and
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release them to whether it's early release or here in this case illegally with no right to be, you are putting the public at risk. so it is very frustrating, and i was disappointed in the director trying to say this is just political banter. it is not. these are lives at stake and the government that is not fulfilling his duty. what was your view? when you here this being dismissive political banter, how does that make you feel? >> i could not believe it. i found it hard to believe that that came up. >> how did you feel? >> i don't know how you can be so incompetent and still keep your job. >> what about the excuses you here, well, many factors to consider or this or that? >> that is the worst part.
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i know in my heart and my family and everyone that knows casey -- i forgeti forget where i was going with this. what was your question? >> when you hear the excuses about why we can't do this. >> that is just, that is the 1st time i said, casey was killed last june, what i heard he was an illegal alien i was supposed to be deported three times i said out loud, i want to make it to washington dc one day. i did command i am happy about that because it is -- i don't see anything happening, any changes happening, you know, with our deportation roles and enforcement of them, you know, so this doesn't happen. he was supposed to be deported three times and
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got let go that same day, the last time, the one before he killed casey. i.c.e. had him and let him go that exact same day. so it is very frustrating. >> how about you? >> several times i have seen her hold the book out. it comes down to common sense. in my case, you hadcase, you had a homicide and you let that person go with priors? a you nuts? it's just common sense. >> i agree. showing a statute book that says these are mandatory removals, nothing in their means you should remove them. you still have the authority to hold people. public safety is at risk. the frustrating thing is maybe we do need reforming congress, but a lot of this, there arethis, there are tools available right now that the executive branch is not using. if some of these countries
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are taking folks that committed crimes, we have things we can do through the state department that they have never attempted, not once. the list of criminal offenses that you see, and this is what i.c.e. gives us. it is startling to see the type of things. these are in every instance people who are not here lawfully, sex assault, kidnapping, homicide, arson. , arson. it is a terrible, terrible list, and i feel for you. we did -- we think it is an important issue. the executive branch has got to take this seriously. i yield back. >> for now recognize the gentleman from pennsylvania for five minutes. >> thank you for your testimony. i wish to follow up with you because we are talking about your daughter's case earlier. and i did not realize that
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you are passing if the tension against a judge who set the bail solo for the killer. what ii read from news reports, and i want to get your take on it because you cannot always trust the news , it said that the prosecuting attorney, the douglas county attorney admitted that it could have been handled better and that basically we were dealing with an offender who had committed previous offenses and who had skipped out on court appearances on previous occasions. and i getting that right? >> that is correct. going the wrong direction of history before, did not have a child seat belted in and two other times where he was supposed to show up for court and did not. prior to my daughter's death. >> right. right. and my colleague pointed out
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, and he was a prosecutor for many years, there are really only two issues in front of the judgment setting bail, danger in the community and probability of flight risk. here is a guy that had exhibited not the probability but the certainty that he would be a flight risk, and add to that that he was an undocumented, illegal immigrant. that is like walking into court with a stamp on your forehead that says, i am a flight risk, incarcerate me at a very, very high bail. and so i can see being met at the judge, but it sounds like the prosecution did not lay that out according to news reports. were you they're for that? >> i was not. when he got his bond we were burying my daughter. i spoke with officer swanson
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they took it real personal. they all did there job.job. to me and my family, whatever you do for your job , a judge, i.c.e., you should be accountable for what you do. for my understanding their saying he did not have all the information, but he did not ask for it either. having a homicide, maybe you do some legwork. he was in jail for four days. you don't do some research on them instead of just selling the bond and running them through? >> do you fault the county attorney for not putting that information in front of the judge? >> i would sayi would say yes, it is at all levels. the city, federal, yes. >> thank you for being here. >> you bet i am sorry the same judge having bonded $2 million this last week
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when my last us here. >> again, thank you as well for being here. the man who killed her daughter unquestionably should have been deported. that is why i.c.e. put him on the duplication list, but as we know, the did not happen, and you deserve an answer as to why did not happen. >> i do. >> november 24 last year senator blumenthal, murphy, representative courtney wrote a letter to the department of homeland security inspector general, inspectors general the serve as watchdogs over federal agencies asking for an investigation, and the members wrote, it appears that i.c.e. could and should have taken simple, additional steps that might have resulted in repatriation and therefore never given the opportunity to murder.
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i assume you support that? >> zero, yes. >> announcing they had agreed to the request and were initiating the investigation. were you aware of that? >> i knew that the investigation is still ongoing. >> since then we have obtained additional details about your case and the information indicates patient officials repeatedly, repeatedly said that they would accept and then reversed their decisions over and over again at the last minute, in fact in one instance the officials approved a manifest that had him listed to board a flight to haiti, but they pulled it back at the last minute, and that happened october 10, 2012. the letter from sen. blumenthal, murphy, representative courtney also asked the inspector general to examine what could be
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done to overcome the objectives of the haitian government to the removal of this individual. i assume you support this part of the investigation as well. >> yes. >> thank you for being here, and my time is up. >> vigilance time is expired the gym and from north carolina for five minutes. >> today is about six names that it boils down to. now, what i am impressed with his you are willing to relive the situation over and over again to questions that i'm sure you do not want politicized are exploited. at the same time, i have the same question, what is it that drives you to keep fighting for your lost loved
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one? why are you doing this? >> well, if it changes the life of one person, it is worth it. if you don't say or do anything, nothing gets done. you must be vocal. i was brought up that way, and it is how i feel. >> i have one kid left. my only daughter. >> i agree exactly with what he said. there is no doubt about it. i shouldn't be here, belong to a group that nobody wants to join, and i am glad -- he is guilty, he was convicted. >> sure. >> but having to go over and over in your head.
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>> well, i complement the strength you are exhibiting. congratulations for being appointed full-time chief. many years of experience. very impressed with what you did the sheriff's department and the gang related stuff. you have seen it firsthand. i was impressed you're willing to call it what it is. you made a quote that this is a national issue that starts in dc with the administration and their policies. i think you can draw a direct line to sacramento with policies. you talk about a b 109, prop 47, and you said, i am not remiss to say from washington dc to sacramento there is a blood trail to the home of ms. faris. why are you that passionate? >> we are feeling the brunt of all of this.
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we talk about the national and state. and it just sunk in that this was so preventable. arrested six times in 16 months, catch and release, catch and release. if they are misdemeanors, and two of those are felonies down down to a misdemeanor, i still think i.c.e. out to look at those cases and say, he might have went and sat i will take a misdemeanor plea bargain, but i think we ought to look at the original case and what it is if it is a felony >> of course. what it does to the morale of the good men and women you lead when they see this kind of situation where they are working putting themselves in danger. >> well, the santa maria police department is a great department that is hired new
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police officers. dedicated income to work every day and they realize something needs to be done at a higher level. >> you know the name-calling , i commend you for being willing to fight this fight. i may have time for one. do you agree with the job at the immigration customs enforcement department? >> the system is broken on both ends. that she have a responsibility? absolutely. he testified before the house judiciary committee in opposition to a bill that would make criminal aliens drunk driving deportable. how do you explain to families? >> the criminal offense should be equal under law.
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they should have the same due process that anyone is entitled to. that is what i firmly believe. >> i heard that today. the normal population. there would be no criminal acts. >> thank you. >> now recognize the ranking member. >> we have identified many flaws but not necessarily directly related to immigration status. as i said to you, i really do thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> the government printing office prince the records of
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these hearings. and you know, one of the things i noticed about myself, and sometimes you can learn stuff about yourself. it is like you did not exist. >> since a record is being made, that is a permanent record. i want to give you an opportunity to say anything special. >> a spitfire. everybody loved her. >> was she like you? >> yes.
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>> very short. my oldest in my other daughter is 17. my other $2 or short. casey would not put up with any wrongdoings. she was a fighter. she fought back. she was great. we talked every single day. phil was a car accident, she would call me on the phone to make sure was not me.
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a very caring, loving 25 -year-old beautiful girl, and now she is gone. >> he said something that kind of caught my ear. >> sometimes i think we who said in the shares do not realize the significance of these kinds of moments. can you explain to me why you said that? >> i felt i could contribute by story about my daughter then how he was supposed to be deported three times. i.c.e. in the federal government, i wanted to just
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say what i wanted to say, it was wrong and they need more steps or whatever the do to take an illegal alien who committed it hideous crime. so obviously i had already done that before kc. acquitted of killing one guy and attempted murder the guys girlfriend. he was already, you know, already a criminal. and when he got out of jail, that doesn't make any sense. >> i said one of my favorite things, how to pain comes one passion and purpose.
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>> a little spitfire. vocal. but she was loving, smart, beautiful she just graduated with a 4.0. she went to walgreens, too. and people need something and is always willing to help at the drop of a dime. just a goodhearted person. enjoyed family things, hunting and fishing. she was going to hunt this year with me. she goes, dad, your going to be passed why should one bigger than you. she was active in soccer.
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she faced with me. she would want to steer. just a lot of joy. never had problems with either one of our kids. i will see her again and you don't want your kids to die in pain. speak up for what you believe in. it is hard to do. myself and family, from the local to the federal level the ball has been dropped everywhere and everyone should be held accountable. >> there is a song that i love so much. it says, the time we shared will always be. as i listened to you, i think it is important that
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we put faces -- that is one of the reasons. .. i don't think to use the word political banter. i think that was not appropriate. but trying to solve problems and
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trying to make it so and i think this would be, you are in for being here is try to make sense of what happened is somebody else's daughter and what somebody else's cousin or sister or friend or fiancée, so again i want to thank you all for being here and when you talk about your daughters i can tell you when you put a personal side to it, i think it helps us when we are trying to resolve these problems to just keep in mind this is for her to wonderful awesome spitfire as you said young people. thank you all, thank you very much. >> i now recognize myself. again i love elijah cummings and
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i don't think this is a partisan issue but there are public policy issues that we have to deal with and mr. root i wanted to put up a picture if it's all right with you of sarah, your daughter there. how long ago was that picture? >> she graduated the 30th of january. she died january 31. after graduation during the day she went out with her mom and her mom's side of the family and i was helping a friend do some work and i asked if she wanted to have a stake with us but she wanted to celebrate her graduation with a friend. i have the driveway blocked them with my vehicle and she moved her vehicle. i'm sorry i moved my vehicle because i was parked behind her and she parked her vehicle on the street and she walked back up after parking the vehicle and
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nudged me and gave me a big old hug. she said i can't go without telling you i love you dad and that's the last time i saw her live before identified her. >> you know, the strength that you exemplify here is just amazing to me. i have long said that its this ordinary people doing extraordinary things that i think i'm the most impressed with and people wake up and something happens and they don't think they are going to be sitting in the situation in new york before congress. i wanted to know when your heart it does me good difference and it's incumbent upon all of us to learn those lessons. it's clearly and says singly as you can the person that is suspected of committing or that committed this murder what ted
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this person done rigorously that in your mind justifies deportation? >> well, first of all he was 16 or 17, 15 or 16 when he was identified in arizona i believe and he was released to his brother who was another illegal. to me they should have both been deported at that time. they were both here in the country illegally. if they would have been deported be wouldn't be in this boat right now and the traffic offenses he committed where he was going the wrong way and failure to show up and i know he had one where he didn't see the elderly child then. i don't have that information right in front of me. he had two or three other times where he was supposed to be in court and he didn't show up. this was prior to -- and that should have been public record. this day and age you should be a
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lot to push the computer and it should show everything. he was in jail for four days, four or five days so they were claiming they didn't know his immigration status and the county prosecutor didn't give us this information and to me you know if a guy is in jail for four days to give you plenty of time to figure it out. he should have 15 minutes and no all of it. i don't do legal work but is just common sense, you know and the way his name is spelled and i'm not trying to be prejudice prejudiced. my mother was an immigrant. he would probably tell you he was like rob smith or something. it's just common sense and it got to a point where a judge you are supposed to be highly educated to protect the public and to me he failed. >> mr. burbank usurped the
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people of utah for a long period of time and i may not be able to convince you or change your mind but i do want to offer another perspective. i want you to be able to offer another spec did -- perspective than i want to offer one as well. i believe in the principle of restitution. if you steal a candy bar put it back in a pay-for it and if you break a window you pay for it and if you were here illegally you go home. so i think for me personally i think you do need immigration reform which i agree with. i think we need to fix immigration. i think we are failing those people who were trying to do it legally and lawfully but we are doing it to be banished to the people who do break the laws and just blow past the laws of the land. i think we need to stand more firm as a nation and say we are an nation of law and if you break them there's a consequence.
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right now i don't see that happening and that's what i see time and time again just being dismissed as well that didn't really help in their couple of things you said that i'd like to ask you about. you said we couldn't deport our way out of this but for somebody who has committed a serious crime, is here illegally. remember here illegally and committed a crime and convicted of that crime why shouldn't they they -- why should we stand for that? >> i don't think there's a police chief in the nation that wouldn't tell you they shouldn't be deported or dealt with appropriately but we should not move outside the laws of the constitution in order to obtain that. we have unfortunate circumstances where people fall into the category better criminal justice system adjudicated it. part of that is there are adjudicated and there's no question we identified today that there are failures in the system. >> would you agree that the immigration customs enforcement is required by law to a minimum of 34,000 vets but there are
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only 30,000 range. there's a good at any time to do 4000 people that should be detained and could be did paint and the congress funded to be to tanden they don't do that. you don't work for i.c.e. and homeland security but can you see the frustrations that there are literally thousands of people that are here illegally is criminal aliens and they are not being detained now because they haven't been funded, just because the homeland security folks and the obama administration decided that's not in our best interest. why is that not in the vestiges of the united states of america? >> we have identified individuals and i did work with i.c.e. to come up with the chiefs of the united states say yes we should deport those people who have committed serious acts. >> do you think driving under the influence falls in that level? >> i think such as -- lozenges that what they should be adjudicated.
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there are people driving around better citizens that have four or five dui arrest in the past that we haven't dealt with properly either. >> somebodies here illegally and is convicted of the dui do you believe they should be immediately deported? >> at duis the class d misdemeanor in the state of utah. no, i do not. >> you think somebody who is here illegally drives under the influence it's in the best interest of this country to leave them in the united states? >> i think it's in the best interest of this country to follow the standards set forth so you have equal. >> i'm asking what you think the standard should be. >> i would deport all of them. if you commit a crime in this country are out of here. you did jump to the frontline. that's the deportation line so why shouldn't we deport that person? >> this is where you and i
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absolutely disagree. i think we have a practice in place in how we adjudicate things in there needs to be some fairness and equity in that system. when there's not, we identify people and they have harsher penalties because of the color of their skin. >> no i never said anything about the color of their skin. those are your words not mine. i never said that. i said they are here illegally and that knows no bounds, right? it happens around the entire world. why shouldn't we deport that person? >> one i don't think we have the capacity to reach them and then two. >> do you think saving money is more important? >> no what i'm telling you is this is no different than the tax code. this is a civil penalty enforceable in the state of utah as a crime. you can only be detained and
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deported and you cannot be jailed or fined. >> you should be deported. that would solve all the problems. my time has expired. i now recognize mr. -- of wisconsin. >> thank you. i'm not going to follow with mr. mr. burbank but my goodness it's incredible how we have people who don't want to enforce immigration laws. chief martin, could you just in general, you have been involved in law enforcement for quite a while. >> 1973. >> you have seen a lot. can you describe the difference in the way the immigration laws of this country have been enforced stay in 1975 in the way it is today?
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>> i can tell you or me perspective in los angeles when i worked for los angeles county jail we used to have agents working inside of our jail so every person that was looked into the los angeles county jail , they were screened at that time by ins so there's a change there. i've seen changes just are administrations and you see the differences in the 70s into the 80s and now we see to the point where like i testified earlier it's like catch and release. it's at the point now where the local level its saturation and we are having a very difficult time dealing with it in santa maria and other places too. >> are you seeing people that would have been deported four years ago today because of lack of resources or mr. burbank's attitude of you know we don't care who comes into this country very much, do you see a
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difference in whether somebody is supported or not four years ago compared to today? >> yes i do and what we son the 70s and 80s was when you would have one or two convictions you would normally be deported. victor martinez was arrested six times in 15 months and he was never deported and not even i was to be deported so therein lies the actual evidence. >> it is to some extent a mystery because in my mind we are running our country and we have witnesses up here not just in this example the people who represent the border patrol the degree to which not just this administration but other administrations as well don't want to enforce our immigration laws at all. we have a lot of bad candidates who won -- don't want to enforce immigration most. is there any speculation and
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have? >> the only thing i hear in california said we need a legal immigration to work the agriculture area but that doesn't ring true in santa maria. we have many people there, from different countries on the h2-a laws and they have worked there for six, seven, eight or nine months and then they returned so that doesn't really hold water for a. >> do you think we have to do a better job of enforcing our immigration laws? >> yes sir. >> do you care to comment on chief burbank's comments? >> the only thing i would say i would like to share with the committee would happen in santeria just -- santa maria eight weeks ago. with an increase in homicides for the past year and a half in santa maria. normally we only have about three homicides a year. last year, 21 months or in 15
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months we had 21 homicides. a weeks ago this day we undertook an operation that had an impact in these homicides. along with the fbi along with atf we undertook and be led the investigation. we sent search warrants to 12 locations, eight in santa maria simon baker shrill and some in ohio and other areas culminating in the arrest of approximately 16 people. all 16 people are illegal aliens for me there'll salvador or honduras and they were all booked for multiple counts of conspiracy to commit murder and there are other murders we believe we will be able to prosecute them for later on. so that was a weeks ago on march 3 so yes i have seen a huge increase in some of the problems we are having. >> it would seem to be common sense if you have somebody breaking the law to comes here
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and there are people doing that unfortunately they'd be more likely to break other laws including the laws against murder. based on your experience in last 20 months to believe illegal immigrants in santa maria are less likely to commit crimes? >> are they less likely? i think it's proportional. we -- santa maria has a 70% hispanic population. half of my police forces hispanic or african-american. they see it on all levels also. i don't think illegals when they are here many of them the only way to support themselves if they are not working in the fields they are committing crimes just like actor martinez was doing. he didn't have a job. he makes his money by stealing. >> so you would say in general and there's this myth map out --
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myth out there and you set it in some of the stuff the chief burbank said illegal immigrants are less likely to commit crimes in my experience common sense would tell you -- is that your experience more likely to commit crimes if you're here illegally? >> let me give you neck sample. we arrested by better people for drunk driving last year in santa maria. i would estimate about 40% were illegal aliens and i think they only make up 20% of the population. >> that's kind of shocking. thank you for giving me the extra minute. >> the chair now recognizes mr. connolly the gentleman from virginia. >> thank you mr. chairman. mr. burbank i just heard that last statistic and that's misleading. if you want to go down that road with her center jeff black american men as part of the
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total population but percentage do they constitute in terms of the course rated builds? >> a much higher rate. >> what do we conclude from that? >> i would suggest respectfully tread very lightly on that. the fact that a fair percentage of people who are undocumented or arrested in the community that has a lot of undocumented people i don't know what to conclude from that. there could be good and bad things you could conclude from that including about policing. i can tell you this is my police chief were at this table he would testify that we don't want to essentially federalized our police forces and make them equivalent of immigration police because we want the corporation of immigrant community including undocumented in terms of law
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enforcement. it might committee across the river it was because of undocumented individuals we were able to solve a murder. we would never have gotten the corporation of the day laborer community in this case undocumented with our police if we had not had a different kind of policy where we differentiated our local law enforcement function from immigration customs and so forth. just a word of caution about that. >> thank you congressman. i've congressman. i then ask what relationship with the hispanic committee. we have officers that walk into the fields and speak with them all the time. we have many a document of people come forward to report crimes but the question is do i see an increase or decrease in not sure the exact numbers but it's proportional as i said. we have coordinators.
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we have like i say 45% of my officer speak spanish so i go to every meeting i've been invited to. so i agree we are not supposed to be immigration officers. that's not our jobs but at the same time we are feeling the impact of the lack of enforcement of federal and state level. >> i understand that. thank you very much. mr. burbank, is deportation sort of the answer all of our immigration problems here and let's up the game and deportation that will solve everything? >> i do not believe that the answer personally, no. >> really, why not? >> i do not believe it's realistic and it's an unfair system in which we don't treat people equally across-the-board and the other thing is people come back. we need a system that performs immigration so individuals can come into the country and work, come into the country and visit them return home, kick him out of the shadows and participate in society.
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this is not a question of legalization. it's a question of allowing them to participate so that they understand traffic laws, so they understand the roles that they can yet the treatment that everyone in society for drugs up a home it's a health issues everyone in society experiences regardless of what their races or were there maybe from. >> what is the recidivism rate of deported individuals? we sometimes act as if deportation is the ultimate answer to a set of problems but the fact of the matter is depending on who you are and where you come from you may illegally enter the patent states multiple times even after having been deported. is that not correct? >> that is correct. >> that is because of why? >> there is a desire to be in this country and there are family members and many issues
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but they do not -- studies have shown conducted by research institutes and universities across the nation that individuals even in multiple returns are committing crime at a lesser rate. >> even though we have criminal activity, for example in northern virginia where it lived we have had gang leadership that has been ported back to central america only to have them show up again for five months later and we have to go through the process all over again. so sometimes when they are dealing with criminals they have a criminal network that also serves reinject them unfortunately unfortunately back into this committee and that's a different kind of challenge than simply addressing some of these battles. would you agree?
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>> f. celini just identified day frustration of police chiefs across the nation. the system is broke and into a reform immigration as a whole we won't be over get past some of these loopholes that criminals are binding. >> i would just say this, my final comment but i spent 14 years in local government before coming here and was chairman of my county. 1.2 million people and that is my feeling that the federal government has in some ways by overseeing a broken system has forced localities and local communities to deal with the consequences of this broken system and sometimes our grieving parents here give witness to leads to tragedy. we have got to fix the system. thank you. >> the chair now recognizes mr. carter the gentleman from georgia for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman and i
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thank all of you for being here. i can only imagine the feelings that you have and please know that you are in our prayers and we appreciate your courage for being here. mr. martin if i could ask you, specifically victor martinez ramirez was an illegal alien that killed air force veteran marilyn farris. he had been arrested by your police department six times in the previous 15 months. is that correct? >> that's correct sir. >> six times in the previous 15 months and its minder standing he been released by the santa barbara county jail olbany 96 hours prior to doing this? >> yes, sir. >> had i issued a detainer for this guy? >> not in this particular case. they did provide detainer in 2014 but that was the only one we knew.
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>> is your city mr. martin, is your city or santa barbara county a sanctuary? >> the city of santa maria's mother sanctuary city and never has been. in fact i have letters from her estate manager which was authored by her city council stating specifically they have never voted at anytime in the past to be a sanctuary city. >> have you ever contacted i.c.e. to request a detainer on someone or on a suspected illegal alien? have you ever have that experience? >> when we arrest someone the santa maria police department makes it a rest we fill out a form that goes with the prisoner to the county jail. we don't have the jail, we jail, which is that the booking process in the area. in this form we do check -- does the officer questioned immigration review and in this case for victor martinez we
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checked yes so then it would be in the hands of the sheriff's department and i.c.e. to make your review. >> and you are not sure what happened after that in that particular case? >> no sir. >> would you agree sheriff that increased communication between local law enforcement federal law and force my, federal law enforcement especially because obviously they are the ones who are responsible for the immigration enforcement, wouldn't you agree better commit education would obviously benefit everyone in this case? >> yes, sir. >> and hopefully keep a tragedy like this from happening again. obviously this is obviously not her best work and could qualify as being our worst work. mr. chairman i'm appalled as we all are and what is happening this particular case and what has happened in many cases like this. ..
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>> >> that is the bill that i am sponsoring and hopefully it will improve communication in between local law enforcement in the federal government. that is what we need more of. thank you for being here and my condolences. we appreciate your courage.
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i yield back. >> i now recognize myself for five minutes. first of all, thanks to the ranking member for asking you to tell us about casey and sarah and if you can tell us about marilyn we don't want them to just be statistics and i watch as people wipe tears as the dad of two daughters i cannot imagine you have been thorough all of us are very grateful to have been very helpful. is it true that was costs and her funeral? do you know, he had a driver's license? >> he did not.
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>> did he ever have one in? >> i do not know that fact. ideal there was no insurance the vehicle that killed my daughter i am not sure of the true order it is that the impound lot i heard was from another illegal contractor from kansas but they will not let me take it to get tested for prince. >> mr. martin how was the response to reporting truckdrivers to frankly that overwhelms me. day is think we have enough without having illegal drug drivers to that?
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>> do you think it makes sense if they have a record of two driving? to you think we have enough without adding truckdrivers? >> yes, sir,. do you think it makes sense when they are picked up with drunk driving regardless of race or national origin or gender doesn't matter does that make sense for them to stay here? >> it does not. i look at the vehicle as i would a pistol. >> and then in this case it was just as deadly. >> yes, sir,. >> mr. burbank. with your last comment you seemed to imply the american taxpayer is for substance
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abuse treatment so we have demonstrated to the substance abuse treatment so we do not agree offend. >> you said in the context of illegals if they are here illegally in the substance abuse programs so you are saying we need to invest in american taxpayer dollars does that not create another incentive? >> we have people. >> you're trying to turn this into something that is not.
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and we are sick of this. you have three people representing families who have lost loved ones. we know that there was wondering 24 people who have committed murders in just this month those who were here and one of them said had the family ben there he would have shot them. they were arrested by local police who were alert to see it dave were carrying weapons wind was carrying a pistol or felony going back through 2008 it is insane. it is criminal if you are sitting next to people who have lost the most precious thing there will ever lose of their life and frankly i
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find that offensive. >> may i respond? >> yes you may. >> i sympathize with the individuals and in the year 2000 my friend and colleague lost his life at the hands of the undocumented immigrant. i would not that person he was held in custody and released the would not want that person found at the expense of somebody else's constitutional rights or civil rights. >> we're not talking about that and you have crossed the line to try to imply that they are here illegally have the same rights of those who are citizens of the country we are not denying due process we're trying to you treat them as humanely as we can but the fact of the matter is i don't care of it was just one if it was my daughter or
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son i yield back. >> i just want to do a follow-up bad thank you for being here today i see the congressman is left digest wanted to respond to is commented think it is completely out of line the implication is unwarranted and i appreciate you are saying that with the former chief of burbank with that mentality we have to get over freer going to save our country because we're going to lose it unless we take these immigration laws seriously too many people think of a pretext not to do the obvious but i would just like to think the chief and
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other law enforcement officers around the country that's all. >> again i want to thank all of you for being here and look at this there is a lot of pain and. and rightfully so and at the same time with our nation was put together the founding fathers tried to create a balance to keep our people safe to make sure equal protection under the al lot and with the true sense of justice and sometimes they seem to collide but i am convinced
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we can do better. and as i heard the director it was clear there were things that we need to do that as members of congress to figure out the ways to help them to be more effective. no system unfortunately is perfect but i saw that for many years and i saw to go with me in a negative way until i die but i think we have to do as americans is constantly reach for the more perfect union that will
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we ever get there? i don't know but we need to strive for it every day. there is so many people and i want to be careful that we don't just label a group of people because i think that is very dangerous as we turn against each other for us to truly pursue them for the more perfect union. so we have to address the issues that come out of this to make sure that vice is doing what it is supposed to do and didn't there are places that need to be strengthened but in the end
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we want to try to make sure for all of you that these kind of things don't happen again. but again we may only be able to minimize the possibility. and they find a way to get around them. but again your testimony has been very helpful to all this. is somebody said earlier and never get over the loss. and you learn to live with their. with the idea you could do
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you are doing to come here to speak for your loved ones and to say something to the effect you want to see something come out of this. that is one of the greatest ways to deal with that. you came to the right place to make this as read wanted to me. >> we're glad you came. all of you. >> we thank all of the witnesses if no further business the state -- committee stevens injured. -- adjourned. [inaudible conversations]
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