tv Jeh Johnson James Comey and Nicholas Rasmussen Testify on Security... CSPAN September 27, 2016 9:30pm-12:33am EDT
>> in a crisis if either changes then more changes everybody else and if you don't show conflict and falls and someone growing out of it you are seeing something you can't really connect to and it doesn't quite have the same impact. >> sunday on q-and-a, john podhoretz, editor of commentary magazine and movie reviewer for the weekly standard talks about the movies he has reviewed ranging from weight gain, spotlight two straight out of compton. >> the movie itself as a kind of classic update of the classic story about how the band got together and recorded its big hit was pretty effective. >> eight eastern on c-span q-and-a. >> secretary j. johnson and
director james comey and to the counter took comey end of the counterterrorisand to thecounter rasmussen testified at a hearing about national security risks including isis, cybersecurity and voter security. at this hearing of the homeland security committee is three hours. [inaudible conversations]
witnesses and secretary johnson first of all for your service to this nation. the task you face is not easy i do not envy your task but i know yoyou worked tirelessly to keep the nation safe and we do appreciate your efforts. i would ask unanimous consent to have my statement entered into the record. >> without objection. >> i will keep my comments short because we want to hear from you. i was in new york yesterday and had some pretty interesting meetings with ambassadors and foreign leaders and some of our coalition partners. i think it's fair to say unfortunately the general feeling is america is and i had enough to actually accomplish the goals laid out just to defeat isis. in june of this year, the
director john brennan testified before the senate intelligence committee and said that despite all the progress on the battlefield in the financial field ever efforts have been reduced the capability of global reach. it's largely the cohesive enemy and i don't want to steal your thunder here. i've got to point out you prefer what the director brendan stated it's fair to say we face more threats originating in more places involving more individuals than we have been iy time in the past 15 years. the terrorist activity is in the global reach. gentlemen, you have a very
difficult task trying to defend our homeland to keep americans safe. as president obama laid out the goal which was defeated it took us four years to the nazi germany and japan. defeating isis on the battlefield, destroying the caliphate is the central first step to reduce those threats so again thank you for coming here and i look forward to your questions and with that i will turn over to senator carper. >> i have a friend if you ask him how he's doing he says compared to what? >> they've ar were going to that
part of the world to fight. last month, from around the world, 50 showed up in from the u.s., not even one a month. we have taken back half were more captured and we're moving in on those old tha but has 200 million people. it's not just the u.s.. this is a coalition. we made a decision not to have boots on the ground. we bring intelligence and training and support, air power, and together this coalition is as we say kicking something. we are taking them all around. and they are not 12 feet tall. and now they are losing on the battlefield and looking for other targets and other countries to go. and when they go there we will take the rest as well.
[inaudible] while the investigation into these attacks and their specific motives are still being determined, it is clear that these were carried out by two americans who spent most of their lives in this country. they underscore the key fact that the greatest threat doesn't come from overseas were from the seer en refugees were those that travel on a visa waive the visar program, the greatest threats now comes from within to spend most of their lives in this country. my colleagues and members may
recall the counterterrorism expert who testified before the committee within the past year and he said these words every person who's been killed in this country since 9/11 has been killed by an american citizen or resident. think about that. many attacks were being carried out by people who lived in some cases their entire life or much of their life they grew up knowing nothing else that life in america. he came here at the age of seven and at the age of two. i believe they fundamentally misunderstand how to stop these homegrown attacks.
the reality is it starts with reaching out to local communities, building stronger partnerships and making the dream accessible to all. the department is doing just that with its office of community partnerships and i'm proud of this committee passed the bill with bipartisan support to enhance and work with the community and others to counter the message of other terrorist organizations. other important ways to battle homegrown terrorism is by neutralizing those that create the hateful propaganda that is radicalizing our fellow americans. that's why it's important to keewekeep taking the fight to sy put he must continue to destroy these guys and by doing that we prevent them from portraying itself as a winner and bring light to the the abuse. the coalition we lea leave this place is on the verge of defeat and for example, for instance,
isis once held a body of land in iraq and the scenery at the size of austria over the past few years we've taken a big chunk of it back and 40,000 off the battlefield and a bunch of the leadership defined by more than a third and thanks in part the efforts of the witnesses that reduced the number that have come to that part of the world. the other thing, it's a good social media. when they were winning the work of social media. when they were not doing so while they were getting really good. they are not doing so well anymore and we learned to fight that battle as well. this may be johnson's last time before this hearing, before the committee. i want to take a moment and thank you for your leadership.
this isn't the department of homeland security takeover from three or four years ago. it took a long time to create the leadership and i want to make sure you have that with adequate funding. can we do better, sure but i just want to thank you for your leadership and ask that the rest of my statement be made a part of the record. >> without objection. earlier this month the nation marked a terrible day in history, an unprecedented attack by islamic terrorists. i would like to have the committee take a moment of silence to acknowledge that terrible day. thank you. it is the tradition to swear in the witnesses to a few who rise
and raise your right hand. do you swear the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? secretary johnson is the fourth in the department of homeland security and prior to leaving he served as general counsel for the department of defense, general counsel of the depression of the air force and the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. >> senator carper, senators of the committee you have my prepared statement. i will just say briefly a couple of things. number one, i've talked repeatedly about how we see the global terrorist threat evolving
and the threat to the homeland evolving from terrorist directed attacks to the global threat environment that now includes the rest inspired attacks of the type you see most recently where an actor is self radicalized without receiving direct orders from a terrorist organization. as senator carper noted he spent most of his life here as a u.s. citizen but is inspired by things that he sees in the internet, social media and the like. this makes for a more complicated and challenging public safety environment. i think i speak for all three of us when i say the prospect of
the next terrorist inspired attack on the homeland is nothing that keeps us up at night most often. within the department of homeland security as you noted. i've been acting our efforts at building community partnerships particularly with the muslim communities. in this environment it is critical that we do that to encourage them if you see something say something. it can make a difference to the purges in the activity resources and the like. the thread is challenging and we now have a new category that we refer to as terrorist enabled attacks. every once in a while something we refer to as earth is validated. terrorist validated. organization may take credit for something after the attack. and i'm sure we will discuss much of this today.
as i think you know, i've been very active lately in promoting the assistance my department can provide to state and local officials when it comes to their cybersecurity in the run-up to the november 8 election we've been working with state officials to help them when they ask. i am pleased that 18 states have now come forward and requested our assistance in their cybersecurity efforts. the last thing that i will say is i'm very appreciative of the efforts of this committee to codify much of what we have done to move forward on the efforts and initiatives to build a better department of homeland security.
the stovepipes, more effective hiring acquisition process. all of you are aware of the joint task force security features not only a border security mission, but a counternarcotics mission and i am pleased the committees of congress are seeking to codify that into the law. it's vital for the homeland security mission and i appreciate the support for much of our initiatives at the management reform. i think you know that the levels of employee satisfaction and morale improved significantly this year thanks to the efforts of the leadership team to get out and engage the workforce and show them what we can do to help them with their jobs. i appreciate the support that we have received from this committee. thank you very much. >> we certainly appreciate your
efforts. the next witness is the director james comey the director of the bureau of investigation who served for the southern district of new york, deputy attorney general for the department of justice and the general counsel for organizations and the private sector. >> senator carper, members of the committee it is good to be back before you again. i should note this may be the last time i sit next t sits nexy friend with whom i served as a u.s. attorney in new york many years ago and i will miss his presence. i will still be here for another seven years. you are welcome back. as the committee knows what i thought i would do is trust. briefly in addition to the written statement that submitted in advance give a status report on how we think about the most prominent of the threats we face which comes at us through a group of savages they call the islamic state. i thought we would give a status report since we were the last
together on the three prongs of the threat. first is the effort to lure the people seeking meaning to travel to their so-called caliphate. as the senator said, the traveler phenomenon changed dramatically since last summer and started to go down late last summer and stayed down where we used to see eight or ten people from the united states trying to go to the. the band appears to have lost some of its power to travel there. that remains tha at the challene confronting this threat.
its epicenteit's at the center e 24/7. it is work that we aspire to and can do perfectly and that is our goal to do this perfectly day after day. it is a challenge not just because the nature of the threat that we are unable to see the communication of those that have become most dangerous that are referred to as going dark. the third element of the threat is when we cannot take a ride off of and i assure you the people at this table and people we work wit with having taken tr eye off of. the so-called caliphate will be crashed into the challenge will be through the fingers with hundreds of very dangerous people they will not all die on the battlefield. there will be a terrorist diaspora sometime in the next two to five years like we've never seen before.
we must prepare ourselves and our allies especially in western europe. they will try to come here and kill innocent people. we have to keep our eye on it and i assure you even though it isn't covered a lot of work is under way everyday. we worked together not just at the federal level with the state and local level. in 2,000 when there was friction between the law enforcement or federal authorities across the
hudson river no more. that's an important way that we are transporting the testament of thto the quality of people dg this work. i appreciate your support of the fbi and i look forward to your questions. >> think you director. the final witnesses nicholas rasmussen director of the national counterterrorism center. he previously served as the director in various functions on the national security council staff and several key positions in the department of state. >> jermaine johnson, thank you very much for including me in a conversation on the homeland security challenges i appreciate the opportunity along with the senator to discuss the terrorism threats that concern us the most as the secretary noted we have had great success and great progress. we have made progress in reducing the external threat from the terrorist groups particularly of large-scale catastrophic attacks that we
faced on 9/11. that said, new york and new jersey underscored the threat we face from individuals is some individuals that choose relatively simple low-tech methods and having passed the mark since 9/11 it is fair to say that the actors around the globe that we deal with today as broader and wider and deeper than an any point since 9/11 and that landscape is less predictable than any point in our post-9/11 history. the attack in terms of manpower funds in the territorial control in the areas are the ingredients we traditionally looked to as being critical to the terrorist organization's capacity to mount external attacks and for that reasoreason thisreason is that g the senator said, shrinking the size of territory controlled and denied the access of additional manpower remains a top priority.
success in these areas will be essential to the efforts to constrain the capacity to act as a group with global reach and clearly sick of the kent has been made in these dimensions but despite this progress is our judgment that the capacity and ability today to carry out attacks hasn't been significantly diminished and the tempo of the attacks and terrorist activities in europe and other places around the globe if the remainder of the global reach. this external operations capable but he has been entrenching over the past couple of years and we don't think that the losses alone will be sufficient to completely degrade the capabilities necessary but not sufficient. the efforts we are undertaking to counter this are absolutely warranted but we still view the affiliates as the primary concern and a top priority.
it still aspires to strike the u.s. interests but w interest tt assess it as capable right now on and attack the scale of 9/11 but the global network remains dangerous and resilient and its affiliate in the middle east and south asia are focused on developing more connectivity unit unities despite the pressure. it remains the largest and most capable affiliate and they maintained their intent to conduct attacks. we are concerned about the safe haven because we know al qaeda is trying to strengthen its network site relocating some of the leadership from southeast asia taking advantage of the safe haven and as you know they took steps in july to hide ties to al qaeda by changing the group's name and claiming to separate from al qaeda. we believe this association is in the name only and that the group remains part of al qaeda
supporting the ideology and focused on attacking the west. stepping back, there are two trends. first is the director mentioned the actors to communicate with each other outside the reach with the use of the encrypted communications and as a result collecting precise intelligence on the status is increasingly difficult and why we hav file ue decreasing the frequency of large-scale plodding efforts but sometimes spend months or years, we are seeing much more rapidly evolving threats that emerge quickly were suddenly into the so-called flash ratio of the time between the individual deciding to attack and when one actually occurs the flash ratio is compressed and allows very little time for the law-enforcement and intelligence officials to get their arms around the plot.
they expand or work on the prevention side working closely with secretary johnson and his team at the dhs and the director and colleagues at the department of justice. they do more in the area we enjoyed great support from the committee and i look forward to working with the committee on the time ahead. i will stop there and i look forward to your questions. ..
we use their territory, according, it has already begun. we are doing some damage control and there leaving the hive and setting up new highs. can you talk about what you know of in terms of the training? we talked about in spire lone. now were talking about potentially directed wolf ask whether it's in istanbul airports were other places, i
certainly heard heard stories of children in the caliphate being trained to do savagery. by the way, i like your description director call me, savages, barbarians, can you talk about what you know in terms of the effectiveness of their training and as long as they continue to exist using social media, i think we witness that new york and new jersey as well, the old pressure cooker bombs. these things are online. just talk a little bit about that for me. >> to your question mr. chairman , there was a time at the peak of the caliphate geographical expanse when there was certainly a greater share of territory that was available for isil to conduct this kind of recruitment and training activity with the flow of foreign fighters was at its peak approximately a year or 18 months ago. at that point we were concerned about the physical space that
they owned and the ability to collect these foreign fighters to train and deploy and equip and create this cadre of potential terrorists who could be deployed back out to locations around western europe and around the globe. that's why the shrinkage of the caliphate has been such a high priority to defeat isil. we have acknowledged all along, or at least as an intelligent smatter felt all along there would be a lag between the time we achieved territorial success on the battlefield and the time at which we could actually concede in their ability to carry out attacks overseas. much of that infrastructure that was set into motion were put in place is going to have to be hunted down and destroyed systematically. it's not simply a matter of taking territory or winning a battle in a place like muzzle. from an intelligence
perspective, it's not that we are trying to minimize the territorial success that the group has had. in fact, destroying the physical manifest of the caliphate is essential for getting at improving the lie behind isil's social india outreach to try to motivate people in the way that they talked about. i think of it in terms of a timeline where the effects we're looking to see will simply be delayed or lag behind physical progress on the battlefield. it's not surprising, it puts us in a period of sustained vulnerability that i don't think any of us are comfortable with. it is a reality. >> don't you agree a four here a year or three from now, will probably be making the same statement.
they have to be destroyed. we can't just nibble around the edges here. if we are sitting here a year from today, i hope we are in a position to say we have put considerably more pressure on that component of isil that focuses on external operations overseas that we will have done a great deal more work from that a year from now to rip up that network and render it less capable. will we be at the end of that effort? i don't know that i can predict that. >> to talk a little bit about what i think is already occurring, i am concerning about isil coming after the united states. when i look at the level of risk whether it's through refugees or the southern border, i would say i'm more concerned about our porous border.
i would just want to talk a little bit about the latest stats on unaccompanied children and family units. in 2014, we held hearings and in the news media we were talking about the surge, this humanitarian crisis. in the 2014, there is 68,000 on company children across the border. so far far we are up to 54000. there are about 60000 family units and we were already at that a year ago. we have certainly gotten more efficient at processing and dispersing but let's face it, a a lot of them just turn themselves in. my concern is that because we did not stop the flow or reduce the flow, we still have enormous incentives for people coming into the country. i'm concerned about the resources on the border in what
remains a humanitarian crisis. the agency has gotten better at handling it but we haven't stopped the flow. can you talk about the southern border being converted and still working on this problem? >> the underlying push conditions still exist. the poverty and the violence in central america still exist. fy 15, the numbers of those apprehended on the southern border went down considerably. fy 15 about 331, hundred 31, my projection for fy 16 is that we will come in around 408,000 apprehended on the southern border. that's a fraction of what it used to be but it's still too high. you are correct, we have gotten better at processing the uac's in particular on the front-end, we have added resources, but the
push factors still exist. i am concerned about what we refer to as the special interest that comes from the other hemisphere and turns up on our southern border. we don't see this very often, it's a very small percentage of those who are apprehended on our southern border were coming from the middle east region, we now have in place systems to almost immediately investigate that person when we apprehend them. i have put in place a working group within my department over the past several months to work with the law-enforcement components of other governments in central and south america to interdict these people before they get to our border and to share intelligence about what we are seeing. the smuggling organizations that focus on migrants from the
middle east are relatively limited number so what were doing and what i want to do more of his focus our law enforcement efforts on cooperating with the law-enforcement's of agencies of central and south america agencies to break these out. you began your question by referring to migrants from the other hemisphere and i think that's a very legitimate concern and we are focused on. >> how much time do i have? >> seven minutes. >> thank you. have a couple yes/no questions that i would like to ask if i could. last week there was some confusion about whether the apartment of community leadership is being knighted by a strategy. does the office of community ownership have a plan?
>> we have a plan. >> can you present that plan to us sometime next week? i have given the office a deadline for giving congress a plan. i believe the deadline i gave them was some time in the month of october. >> one challenge that we face with stopping him grown terrorism is that it's no longer solely a law-enforcement matter. we certainly can't take our way out of this problem. it means that we must now focus on stopping americans from becoming violent extremists in the first place in the department of homeland security has taken up the difficult task of building relationships with communities and it's a new office with a very tough job. with that said, we can't put all of our eggs in one basket. it's a question for each of you. we will start with you, what are
each of your agencies doing to prevent the recruitment of americans by troops like isis. what else can and should we be doing? i love your analogy director call me about the squeezing of isis and these guys are flipping through our fingers and going to other places. how do we ensure they're not successful as they slipped to other places, including the u.s. and that they're not radicalizing, folks from afar and here in the u.s. >> we play two primary rolls in our efforts to counter violent extremism and event terrorist recruitment of u.s. persons. first of all, we provide the analysis that underpins much of the community's effort. trying to understand the process of radicalization, the way in which individuals succumb or find himself vulnerable to this poisonous version of extremist
ideology. the analytical understanding helps inform the strategy and policy efforts that secretary johnson's task force is leading at the department of homeland security. there is that baseline analytical work that were doing to support the strategy and policy work. beyond that, i have officers who are practitioners in this area and serving on the tax force at dhs. we were happy to make our contribution of our share of the inner agency of officers to contribute to this effort. i only wish we had more experts that i could send over to jay's team to do more. i think this is a capability area that were trying to grow inside the federal government and we have strong expertise but i think we need to build more of it and that starts with my department. >> thank you so much. >> director call me, same question. >> we have two main responsibilities in that area. the first is obviously it's our job to try to find those who may
be headed in that direction from consuming poison and acting on it. that involves building a complex set of relationships with communities and teachers and religious leaders and also in the online space, making sure we have the sources and the under coverage in place to see those who might be going from consuming to violence. >> my senses that were doing a lot better and that. >> we are in some sense and not in another. we are chasing the islamic state off of that space. the challenges, we've chased them to a space with their less able to process broadly and able to communicate in a more secure way. our mission is to try to get into those spaces to see. we are also working with other organizations.
we have a lot of indicators of mobilization to violence because we've worked thousands of cases. part of our job is to supply our partners in the government and state and local law-enforcement and teachers and religious leaders with the indicators of somebody headed in that direction so there can be appropriate disruption. those are two responsibilities. >> thank you. >> same question. could you talk about the department of homeland security and what they're doing to prevent terrorist groups like isis? >> we have done a lot in my judgment to build bridges to certain communities through our engagements which include the fbi and local law enforcement. in my view where we need to do a lot more is not only chase these groups off the mainline internet but help muslim leaders,
community leaders build a counter message. i would like to see a greater partnership between community leaders and those in the tech sector who are willing to do this partner to develop that positive counter message. it exists at some level but it needs much greater amplification. i think were off to a good start. the other thing i will say is i am very pleased that congress for this fiscal year gave us some grant money. it's only $10 million which doesn't go very far, we need to do a lot more of that in the future. we are going to be making some grant awards before the end of the calendar year but we need more of that. i think that's a critical part of the future. >> when isis is rolling through iraq, they were robbing banks, picking up oil fuels and really doing quite a treasury.
my understanding is their ability to attract oil is greatly diminished and we found places where they were hoarding cash and we were able to destroy it. it's one thing to defeat isis on the battlefield, and we are doing that. it's another thing to engage them and i think were doing that quite effectively. the other thing is how do we undercut and take away their financial ability and their financial ability to fund resources around the world? >> i think the very way you frame the question highlighted some of the ongoing work that we've undertaken to put pressure on their ability to raise finances. the coalition military campaign has prioritized all along the effort to go after isil's capacity to fight their oil resources. that becomes a recurring business because in many ways they can reconstitute affiliated
individuals and have workaround and then their back on the target list because it's literally an ongoing effort. at the same time we've also worked with the iraqi government [inaudible] that again has shrunk the amount of money available to isil. as you rightly noted, some of the sources of income that they have are now nonrecurring. it is a pie that will continue to shrink over time. one of the things we've also learned about terrorist organizations is it doesn't always take a massive amount of money to fund the terrorist arm of the organization. they were developing the caliphate and delivering goods inside the caliphate. the bit of business that
involves deploying operatives overseas or recruiting operatives overseas is not necessarily the most resource intensive part of what they do. >> thank you very much. >> i want to be very respectful, i truly replaced appreciate the fact that we have so many members here but i want to give them all a chance to have seven minutes so i just ask everyone to ask the clock. >> thank you. one common attribute to many of the recent attacks has been that they were previously investigated by the fbi and they were found not to be credible threats. this would be true of the boston bomber, the underwear bomber, the orlando killer and most recent new york bomber. we are all fallible and i'm not say here to say the fbi is
terrible because they've missed these things but i'm troubled that they're unwilling to admit that they may have made some mistakes. every time this comes up is what we hear as we made no mistakes and we did exactly what we should've done in our conclusion was right. these are judgment calls and the judgment calls were incorrect. i think we should at least admit that and look at some of the facts. i'm also troubled that the fbi continues to ask for more power instead of saying maybe we could use our current powers more efficiently and effectively. i will give you an example. machin, the orlando killer investigated for a couple years, say we can't find enough information. internal policies cause you to and the investigation with the new law saying you have to stop it, maybe we should talk about whether or not the fbi's policy should change about how long we keep an investigation (he goes into a gun store, the gun store owner calls you.
fbi shows fbi shows up. fbi doesn't get the security footage well, i mean, local policeman in my hometown know to get security footage. everybody does. that's the first thing you do in any potential crime scene. couldn't we couldn't we have taken the security footage, matched it with how many terrorist live within 50 miles of that gun store. i don't think were talking about thousands. we might be talking about 20 people. couldn't we then present a list and pictures of the 20 people that we have suspects to the gun store owner? couldn't we try to match them with the security footage? we went back for the security footage weeks later and it had already been erased. let's admit these are mistakes. i'm not saying let's hang summary out to try, let's just admit were not perfect and we made mistakes because if we don't admit the mistakes, were not going to get better. one is the length of the investigation. should we have longer investigations. are you changing any policy or tell us we made no mistakes and
is just one of those things and, with regard to opening investigations, i've asked repeatedly why did you get a warrant, why did you close the investigation and i hear and hear and read that the own internal rules say you have to have probable cause to open investigation. that sounds to me above and beyond the constitution and i'm a stickler for privacy and probable cause but to investigate something that i don't think requires probable cause to open investigation. i think you have all kinds of tools that may be were not using adequately and yet there seems to be a great deal of lobbying for the fbi for new powers, getting new third party data and new metadata, new rules on encryption, banning technology and trying to get involved with technology when in reality i think we need to admit that maybe there are some problems in our current investigation, also acknowledging that were fallible and we all make mistakes and you can't be perfect and things will
slip through, but i think to say well, we said these people were not credible threats but we didn't make mistake, they just weren't, well they were credible threats, repeatedly and when a parent says my son is a terrorist, as a parent, parent, i can say that's a pretty hard thing to do that maybe we should try a little harder. the most recent guy was in jail. they say will we didn't investigate as he was in jail. we never even prosecuted him which is a whole another criminal justice issue. you don't get prosecuted for stabbing your brother. the thing is if he had a lawyer at the time he should've requested and maybe the lawyer said you can't talk to my suspect but somebody should've asked. he's never prosecuted and nobody ever follows up. i think there's a lot of public information you could've looked at, i think there's no reason you couldn't open an investigation and the standards get much lower when the investigations are open. it's relevant to investigation, it is probable cause.
we can argue about that standard but that's a current standard. i just don't think were necessarily using our tools adequately and i think it is important to admit when we make mistakes so we can improve our technique. i guess my question to director call me, is it your position that no mistakes were made in judging these not to be credible threats, would you not have done more in the gun store that martin come in to six weeks before the shooting? would you not have done more when he was arrested to question him because his dad said his visit he was a terrorist? >> thank you senator. sitting before you is it deeply flawed and fallible human being who believes very strongly in admitting mistakes when they're made. i hope you saw the very painful moment when i'm admitted publicly that we made a mistake when we allowed dillon roof to get a gun. as long as i'm director of the fbi we will stare back very
carefully and admit our mistakes and be transparent and get better. as you no, i commissioned a look back at our investigation of the orlando killer which is just being completed now and the inspector general will do another one which is great because if there's learning there, we are going to squeeze it and get better. >> what is your opinion on the gun store? >> your facts are wrong there. >> excuse me? >> your facts are wrong. when we were contacted and went back to the store, it was weeks "after words". the video was not available. your facts are also wrong with respect to what the bomber in new york who is still alive and is going to have a trial and be sentenced to jail for the rest of his life so i want to be careful about what i say. your facts are wrong about what his father told the fbi. there as well, we will go back and scrub our contact with that matter very carefully and if there's learning, we will learn from it. we we are not perfect people. we aspire to be perfect because
we think that's with the american people have a right to expect, but you will find us being varies straightforward about our shortcomings and our strengths. >> we don't need probable cause to get a search warrant. were going to get a wiretap and i want to correct something else you said. should we keep our investigation open longer? >> we should keep them open as long as the facts warrant it heard there is no restriction, on orlando. that preliminary is normally set for six months and can be extended another six and another six. we have policies and the tools by and large that we need to do this with.
>> that judgment has to be made every day by professional agents with review of their supervisors >> i have a question about bioterror and bio watch and tsa retaliation. i'm very concerned about those issues, especially since the admiral said there had been no action taken in regard to tsa whistleblower retaliation and that doesn't match what's been reported publicly and i'm trying to figure out what the facts are. i want to spend a few minutes talking about prevention. prevention is really hard for somebody who has spent a lot of time in law enforcement, it is
hard to quantify when you're successful and it's incredibly hard to do it on a performance basis knowing what's working and what isn't. i think all of the experts agree that one of the key foundations to prevention of the radicalization of lone wolf in this country is in fact the cooperation and working relationship with the american muslim community. would you agree with that assessment? >> absolutely. that's why i alluded to in my response is that the officers that i have that are working alongside jay johnson professionals are doing exactly that. they are practitioners out engaging with muslim communities around the country to the ends that you describe. >> so the vilification of the muslim community in this country is very counterproductive to the most essential piece of our prevention efforts to the biggest threat we face which is the radicalization of lone wolf's which is a candid looking for a needle in a haystack. is that correct. >> there's no question we need a
cooperative, engaged productive partnership with muslim immunities, but not just with muslims but communities at large as we deal with the challenge of lone wolves. >> in that light, when we have had a number of arsons that mosques across the country, is there an effort that is beyond, i was an arson prosecutor for a long time so i know the great work of the atf and the capabilities we have in the technical ability to determine arson. are you comfortable that all the resources as a law enforcement community and the federal government are being used in a display to the good patriotic american muslims whose places of worship are being burned out of a misplaced prejudice and vilification of a certain religion? >> i am a. >> is there a cooperative effort
between both the fbi and the atf and local law enforcement in that regard? is there a team approach. >> yes we work very closely together on those cases and many other. >> when someone tries to buy an airline ticket that is on the watchlist and they believe they are on the watchlist erroneously , do they have to sometimes miss their flight? >> i can imagine that happening, yes. >> so it might be that they had to be go someplace very important and they're not allowed to get on an airplane. >> correct. >> but there is a process they can use to get a review of them being on the list, correct. >> there is an adjudication process to get off the list, yes. >> and approximately how long does that process take on average? >> for the overwhelming majority of cases where it is a matter of mistaken identity it's pretty quick. i think it's a matter of days or weeks. >> but in the meantime they've
been inconvenienced - very definitely, yes. >> if we had the same process for someone buying a gun, they would be inconvenience but rather than missing a flight to an important meeting or the funeral of a loved one, they would be missing owning a gun for two weeks. >> correct. >> is there any reason we can't put into the process adding those people to a database that would flag at the point-of-purchase anybody who is on that list in terms of them being inconvenienced by delaying they are purchased for a few weeks? is there any reason. >> senator in my judgment, consistent with the second amendment and consistent with a responsible gun owners right to own a gun, we should give the attorney general added discretion to deny a gun purchase to somebody who meets certain parameters similar to the parameters for the no-fly
list or the terrorist watchlist. so the answer to your question is yes, in my judgment. >> as a matter of homeland homeland security, i think this is something we need to do. >> do you think that would be more effective, i think it's easy to say after the fact that we should grab surveillance tape in gun shops. could you imagine the crime if we were grabbing that without probable crime being committed. you think the nra is up in arms about making sure we don't inconvenience anyone for a couple weeks on the terrorist no-fly list, can you imagine what the reaction would be if we started unilaterally seizing purchase video in gun shops. do you think that is something the fbi would even be comfortable doing without probable cause or without some reason to believe a crime has been committed? >> we don't seize anything except pursuant to law. we went be comfortable in doing anything outside of that construct. >> so i guess the purpose of this line of questioning is, as do not get why we are having a
long hearing on the danger of terrorist in this country and we can't even take the baby step of saying someone who is going to be inconvenienced by missing a flight can't have the same inconvenience for buying an ar-15 that can kill a number of people in a short period of time that is on the same list. i think it's frankly astounding to me and i was really pleased to see last night that both presidential candidates agree. i am hopeful that people who have refused to vote for this in this body and on this committee will take another look at it because i think we can pound our chest about how long you're investigating people or second-guessing the determination that goes into probable cause and seizing gun video of gun shops but i just don't know how we can with a straight face they were serious about this without taking that important step. i will say i was in jordan
looking at the screening procedures, i know both you are involved in your agency and i was astounded at how detailed the screening interviews and processes were on the ground in syria. i am much more comfortable about that with the visa waiver program. and i made it. look. >> i certainly appreciate that. >> he didn't even have to yell at me. >> i will say the answer to your question is because terrorist kill people knives and homemade bombs and trucks. >> thank you chairman, i want to thank all all of you for your service to the country. director comay, i want to just follow up on one of senator paul's question and start with this in terms of the midteens situation in orlando. i understand he was investigated and he was interviewed twice by the fbi and then the inquiry was closed. is that true? >> yes he was interviewed twice
during an 11 month investigation and then the preliminary was closed. in that investigation, was there any work done to see what he was doing online? >> in other words, you interviewed another person, was there anything looked at to see what he was doing online? >> as i understand that there were no search warrants for the content of any of his devices. >> i guess my question is, there's even work you can do without a search warrant, just publicly, was anything done to see whether he was saying anything online or doing anything without having to get a search warrant. >> in public space. >> to the fbi do anything? >> i don't know the answer. i don't think so at this point. >> okay so one of the things as i understand from what i've heard in prior things that was
not done. as i look at the situation, one thing that i would assume that we would do in every investigation, even before we get to the level of looking for content is to look if there's anything in the publicly available space that individuals you are following up on may be saying about terrorism or extreme physical figures. would you agree that's a natural step in investigation. >> may be and may be the things that we've learned from our look back, it would depend on what we've learned in our investigation. this one had two sources that were having conversations with him. i think that was a pretty good vector into his state of mind. >> my question goes to are there learned and this one seems obvious to me that when you have an individual who is making extreme statements, you are interviewing them and we know that you tried to verify through
secondary means, but it seems surprising to me that there wasn't some kind of online work done in something so significant >> that is a deep concern, i hope you will give us the report exactly of what was done or not done in that instance and i'm in the camp of one of the things i know is important to the fbi because you testified before other committees is wanting the authority, or the electronic records fix, can you explain the significance of that and why it's important because having been a prosecutor before this, i can assure you and your basic child pornography case, internet predator case, i was able to get these types of records and tell us how your being limited and why you need us to fix it. >> sure. for many years we were able to issue national security letters that were issued in our national security cases or terrorism cases for telephonic transaction
records and internet transaction records. not the contents of their calls or e-mails but the ip address is involved and who they community and communicate it with on the internet and by telephone. several years ago some started to interpret the statute to say if you read the language, what i think was a mistake it did not allow you to get an a cell records on the internet. in both circumstances, they allow us to get non- content for telephone transaction records and internet transaction record. >> you would agree this is a very common in criminal cases where you're not getting content but you're actually, in many instances issuing a subpoena and it seems absurd to me that we can't do that basic fix. i hope we can get you that authority. >> i wanted to follow up on the
most recent case. in that instance, i know know senator paul had asked you about that, but one thing, with the public reports of what is out there, it's my understanding that he was actually flagged by the department of homeland security and after he arrived back from pakistan and notified by the targeting center based on when he was stopped at the airport. later in august of 22013, his father make some type of report to him, with some connection to terrorism and at that point, that was also provided to the
fbi. reports are that he was never interviewed there. what i think we are trying to understand is these are basic steps that when you have someone traveling to pakistan, even if they have family members there, we know that's a hub hub of terrorism and a very dangerous place. that flag cannot travel history combined and yet no in person interview. can you help us understand, do you have enough people, is there some reason why he wouldn't be interviewed and what are the things we need to learn from this because obviously we want to prevent it in the first place , but one something like this comes to your door, we want to make sure it's followed up on so we can do all we can with local law-enforcement.
>> thank you. i will want to have this conversation but i don't want to have it now. this guy is alive and i want him to have a fair investigation and i don't want to do anything that says we deprived him of that. we are going to go back and look very carefully about the way we encountered him and we will give you that transparency about what we did well, what we learn from it, we, we haven't done that work yet because were doing and active investigation. >> i appreciate that, but i think this is really important question for all of us. number one, do you need different legal authority. number two do you need more agents. number three wasn't something that was missed that this individual was not interviewed. if we look at the orlando situation, if we go back to the start of each one of them putting them together, what more do we need to do. one of the lessons learned and if you need additional support, we, we need to know about it very quickly. >> thank you.
>> thank you, thank you for the work that you do. you brought up support for state government on election tampering. could you give me an idea on how prevalent this is? >> we are seeing instances through fiber where they get into the online presence of various agencies and one or two of them have been successful and others have not. more broadly, we have nationstate actors and activists
and so forth. we have been out there saying to state election officials if you need help just ask us for it. they are getting into the databases and changing, is that what they're doing? >> no, that's not it. the matters are under active investigation. i think there's a limited amount that we can say but what we are seeing our efforts to get into voter registration rolls, the identity of registered voters, things of that nature, changing ballot counts. >> not the change votes. >> no but so person who is normally registered would not be registered. is that what we are talking about. >> i cannot say that, no. >> okay. >> is this coming from one particular country? >> i don't believe that we have reached a determination of that nature to that extent. >> okay.
>> we talk about the southern border and i was talk about the northern border. i do want to talk about that for the second in the arena of medications. we have been told by folks who work under you on the ground in the northern border that there are gaps of communication on the northern border. are you aware of those gaps? >> yes. >> do they exist? >> it's something i have heard about, i know you have an interest in this, frankly i would not be surprised if there were some level in gaps of communication that should not exist. >> i guess the nest question is then, if you do have gaps, which is not unreasonable, it something that does need to be worked on, do you have workarounds on those gaps through local law enforcement or highway patrol or municipal sheriff departments or whatever might be? >> i would have to get back to on that. >> could you check on that
because i think if we have dead zones in the northern border, that's a particular point of concern that is pretty basic. if you could find out and let me know, that would be great. >> sure. >> i want to talk a little bit about, since this is your last meeting about dhs. dhs is a behemoth of an agency. you've done a masterful job in your job there. i think you report to a number of committees, i think maybe 19, 119 depending on how you count. >> do you have any ideas, i can't imagine from an accountability standpoint it doesn't make much sense to me
because how can this work and number two, do you have any actions that you think congress could do on your way out that would make your accountability better and quite frankly more functional? >> first, notwithstanding that number of committees and subcommittees, we have actually reduced the amount of time it takes to respond to a congressional inquiry pretty significantly since i've been secretary, and we do spend a lot of time responding to requests. i will say, i read every every letter from a member of congress that comes in, about half of them are from the same two people, no names mentioned. >> you not one of the two. >> no sir. >> the real problem with having so many committees being divvied up is it's very tough to get any kind of comprehensive
authorization of our activities through congress. that is the real substantive problem with having so many committees of oversight. >> is there a solution to that? should we just give it to this one and be done with it. >> i would say look, in a perfect world would say one oversight committee. authorization, one committee for appropriations, just, just like my department of defense days. we had arm services and appropriations and that was it. if i appeared before any other committee i got in big trouble. >> okay. this is for both you and jim call me. >> they've changed their policy with mexicans traveling to canada and there's not much we can do about that. this policy, i sent you a letter on it, in fact i know i did and you responded to it and i appreciate you read it. has this changed our posture
toward the northern border because of the potential appearance of loosening travel restrictions? >> it depends on how they arrive into canada. by air, that's one thing. if it's on land that's another. i will say, we are building information sharing agreements with the government of canada so that we have a better sense for who's coming and going across our border into canada and i think we need to keep moving in that direction. >> okay. last thing, it's it's been claimed here couple times, do you see yourselves as only playing defense? >> that's an interesting question. when i was at dod signing off on a lot of legal force, i suppose i was on offense. i think it's inherent in the dhs
mission that we are on defense, but i think it's also incumbent upon us to have an affirmative agenda for improving our mission and how we do business so i try to do both. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> senator booker thank you mr. chairman. i want to thank you all for your work. the dedication you have, you are all truly patriots to our country and obviously what we all witnessed happening in new jersey in new york is a further affirmation of the quality of your commitment to the security of our homeland. i appreciate you saying earlier, director comay and director johnson that this is a multiple level commitment from local authorities as well as state and federal authorities because what we saw in the commitment of
police officers who literally took fire from a terrorist to save lives. i've reached out to the two gentlemen last week and it was truly a wrote work being done at all levels of our government. secretary johnson, i have been very concerned and focused on issues of rail security. it is something that i feel were not doing enough, especially given the northeast court or weren't or people travel by rail then in air travel. we have seen pipe bombs found in the elizabeth train station or near amtrak, new jersey transit for millions of people ride in the state of new jersey. in 2007, congress passed legislation requiring the tsa and other agencies implement recommendations that came up with the 9/11 committee. among them were several requirements for the tsa to issue regulations that would provide direction to public transportation agencies and bus
companies when doing security training. there have been several critical events from the brussels metro bombing to more recently what we saw in new york and new jersey near train stations. if you look at it from a larger perspective it's 2001 there has been more than 1900 attacks carried out against transit systems globally resulting in thousands of deaths about 4000 and 14,000 injuries. tsa currently has less than 800 full-time employees dedicated to protecting surface transportation assets which is less than 2% of the agency's workforce. if you look up. if you look at the proportion of what were applying to air travel versus surface travel, you see it's almost as if we are fighting the 9/11 efforts and not really looking toward what the attacks are that were seen consistently around the globe today.
i've been discussing this with tsa in writing let letters about it, i hope i'm not in your top two but definitely i've been pushing this for some time and it's becoming very frustrating to me. i just want to ask very specifically, can you please provide me with a very specific timeline on when the tsa is going to finish its work on the 911 commission's recommendations >> yes, we can get to that timeline. beyond that i will say also a regular user of the northeast quarter and new jersey transit and so i'm very familiar with rail security. frankly, i believe tsa principal focus should continue to be aviation security giving the threat streams that we all see. that needs to be their number one priority. they do have the rail security mission as well, but as you no, senator, we have amtrak please,
and other police to support that mission as well but i would like to see us continue to develop that aspect of tsa's mission so we are at a better place. >> i appreciate that and your commitment for getting me a timeline. just an issue of proportionality, to present going to surface transportation and 90% going to aviation. does that seem a little out of. >> i would want to think about that a little bit more. again, when it comes to rail, we have other security forces out there supporting the mission. i would want to think about whether that's the right ratio or not. i continue to be concerned about aviation and airport security and i believe that needs to be tsa's principal focus. >> i'm not arguing with that. again, i look forward look forward to getting your timeline. just real quick, director rasmussen and director comay, do
you believe romney was part of a cell of other terrorists that were planning other attacks? >> that investigation is open, we see no indication of a larger cell or the threat of related attacks. >> it's interesting you are seeing a spiking of violent extremism happening. i appreciated his talk about terrorist like it's never been seen before if we win on the ground in syria and iraq. can you give me more of an idea of what you think there's a spike going on and what are some of the root causes of this? >> what i was talking about in terms of that is that we know tens of thousands of fighters have flocked to the so-called
caliph. many have died in battle and many will die if the caliphate is crushed. >> can you just hone in on 215. there has been a spike, right? this isn't necessarily the result of the gains that were making in syria in iraq. do you have another understanding of why we are seeing a spike in 2015 and 2016 as well? >> we saw a spike in the united states of people moving towards violence because isil started investing in their social media campaign in 2014 and it paid dividends starting in the spring of 2015 were troubles soul started flocking to it and moved to violence. we've made progress against that and mocking those people up and disrupting some of that narrative so the numbers have come down slightly. >> thank you. >> senator baldwin. >> thank you, mr. chairman.
>> i also want to explore, while first of all, thank thank you for being here and appearing today and for your work. i want to continue to explore what you talked about, director comay with regard to the impending terrorist status when the caliphate is crushed. in your testimony, before this morning you talked about the fact that this is not an often look that area but work is underway and you assured us of that. i guess i would ask you and director rasmussen about what your early estimates are of what that is going to look like globally and, sort of the where, when, who, and understand the
things that we have to know first when we consider action on the ground to be included. i'd like to hear what your early estimates are and then what sort of strategic changes we should look toward domestically. what's going to be the impact of that spread domestically and policy and resource implications that it has. realizing we are not in a classified setting, tell us what you can about that work underway. >> certainly. and then we will check me and probably make the answer were thoughtful but i'll take the first shot. >> certainly at least hundreds of fighters are not going to die in the coming crushing of the
caliphate. the caliphate has been steadily losing territory and there will be a point where it's essentially crushed. i don't know how to estimate that over the next couple years, through the fingers are going to come some very bad people, a much larger group what we saw out of afghanistan and the conflict of the soviet that ended in the most important way to prepare that is to knit ourselves together with our european colleagues. most of that will go into europe from where it came so there is tremendous work in making sure that people are taking advantage of the data that we have gathered both in our terrorist screening center and our investigations and connecting themselves to us and most important getting our colleagues to learn the lessons we learned after 3000 people were murdered in our country 15 years ago
where we broke down the barriers and knit ourselves together. our colleagues must do that and connect themselves to us and our information better so we can spot and disrupt that flow when it comes. >> i know my time will be very limited. what i will want to get to fairly quickly is the domestic implications that are underway on how we pivot from looking for that little in the haystack to those who may gain access to the united states in this diaspora well identified in advance. >> if you could. >> i'll do 30 more seconds and then i'll let them follow up. in this sense, that's the threat we have been parent preparing for since 911, the external flow of terrorist looking to come in to our country. that is where we have made such tremendous progress. in my mind it's continuing to do what we have done well, finding
>> >> it is still a named base system and needs the biometric bassist and because terrorists overtime have shown they have the capacity to innovate to develop the documents over town that could fool us. we would all be more comfortable if one decade from now we had biometrics to identify travelers at the border rather than through names. >> i have one minute left so i may not get the whole film and surf -- the answer on the record but with this
domestic implications implications, secretary johnson, i want to highlight something concerning be in my home state that is, the availability of grand resources around the threat analysis center recently we worked with the fbi to support a terrorist attack in the city. and had to reduce there full-time personnel by two-thirds when milwaukee's longer qualified for the security initiative under the risk formula. i know that they could use
additional funds with targets across the country do you agree there is a need for increased grant funding and can you report back the threat of proportion of the formula. >> the secretary can respond in writing on that. >> >> is that a promotion greg. >> ensure you that it is not a promotion. [laughter] you are helping everyday no one is infallible.
the have been gaps and problems with the homegrown be threat i continue to believe the day understand they are moving from the services like twitter but going to cryptic sites. and to ask some more detail questions and how to read it the best minds working on the counter narrative as we get some of the young people . and even before this committee told us a few months ago with four and fighters and other gm
hottest -- g. hods the also have gaps in intelligence with the crucial zones for conflict in is a critical issue but and with those biometrics with the european situation those of the two concerns that are the most pressing for be. if i could raise another issue for the 9/11 hearing and fema wants us to codify urban search and rescue volunteers. for them to come together with the task force.
we put this out unanimously with the support of the administration. in b are trying to get this done this has been on the calendar and so i plan to go on to the floor to offer that with unanimous consent. and a rare visit to washington when 9/11 hit. and as a lonely highway the task force was coming the other way. and they recognize them. and i know the men and women involved in the task force
that did go into harm's way. and that liability of insurance. associates international association of firefighters to endorse that. we cannot wait for another congress. and said we wanted to codify so thanks for your support. do you have any comments? >> thank you. >> with the other topics on home ground terrorism can we did little deeper for who was responsible to provide the counter narrative quick.
>> we in this committee that they are putting all there that is a fork life and we have seen the counter narrative and it is a very effective i know who is best fit to respond but who in is responsible how can we ensure the best wines from the private sector to have that narrative to stop the homegrown terrorism? it's whether orlando or stanford dino so much is encouraged by online messaging. >> first the counter message
given the nature this is something that has to be developed within the committee to the extent they have a role to facilitate the partnerships to develop the counter message. with the office of community partnerships at the moment leading the interagency task force where we draw from the best talent and the best ashley task force was put together one year ago. with the task force led by my department to counter violent extremists them with the effort to amplify the counter message.
>> i have seen the work that is out there online with a broader message through grants in d.c. more of my department do the same thing. to develop these kinds of materials and encouraging innovation but inherently. >> and stan that but also we cannot just allow that to be the counter message because government cannot organize that. did to go on line it is incredibly important to. we will follow-up with specific questions but it
isn't compelling from the production and point to view to help change the of mines to persuade young people we will follow-up on that. >> by where cheryl mills granted immunity for secretary clinton quick. >> the department of justice wrote a letter to the lawyer for the production of her laptop was in for her but we will not use directly against you anything recover of a laptop that is a common tool in criminal investigations. the fbi judgment was we need to get to the laptop to see what it is. the laptop was going on over year and it was a tool that her lawyer asked for and granted. >> what she then secretary
clinton's lawyer? >> she was acting as a member of her legal team that is the dear regular that is not part of their job. with a judicial proceeding when dree who could be representing individual. >> secretary clinton has made her statements to the public were truthful. is that accurate quick. >> in the non whenever say that i believe anybody i asked do i have evidence to establish that it is untrue or don't believe somebody? as i testified about this five hours of july we did not develop the evidence leading used to believe they were not truthful.
>> du thing she would have destroyed her laptop as opposed to just asking greg. >> is the lawyers laptop having done this for many years that will likely entangle us for of very long time so by june of this year the investigators wanted the laptop in the best way to get that was through negotiation. >> we have no evidence to establish there was a crime. >> did secretary clinton break any laws over data quick. >> we have no evidence sufficient to justify the conclusion she violated any statutes with classified information. >> is there any distinction between that statement that no prosecutor would bring charges?
>> given the evidence in the case no prosecutor would bring the case. >> last week the inspector general they were granted citizenship. >> exact number is somewhere around, as we look into which they settled on a hundred 58 but not all of them were granted citizenship. >> can you distinguish some of those categories? were any of them from special interests countries quick. >> not offhand. i cannot give the that breakdown it is the noble
fact to which i can provide you but i will say that with all of these cases with a finger prints to digital with the process to go under way right now to denaturalize those as a result of what occurred and that is underway and we will continue h. -- continue to do that. >> i have to check. i don't rule. >> howdy you not know that? had was that not something that is urgent. >> just sitting here right now widowed have the list in front of me.
>> i have no basis to believe with a suspected terrorist. >> now to investigate this is the legacy matter going back to the 1990's as we go through the process. these were under deportation orders so it would seem the offensive or defensive is there any more important defense and those were likely each terrorist? >> what is the priority? that is why rico through the process right now to investigate. >> but in those 11 days to make them aware of the problem? >> senator just sitting here right now like cannot give
you the answer to the question i don't want to be wrong. >> i think ag said it leased to the alleys previously referred to the terrace linkage. >> and the aig reveals how nebraska understands how executive branch pulls together. >> but to me personally? i will find out after the hearing i am confident they're talking to d.h. us but they have not brief to the director react. >> this may turn one and yours digitized fingerprints
all along has that process been going on? >> i expected to be completed in the next nine months and has been going on for quite some time. >> before digitized fingerprints we have a process to decide who to let in so that is not a sufficient excuse for what flint wrong so what happened to granted the 750 that were to be deported how they granted citizenship quick. >> catatonic -- at a time when the conversion was not complete therefore the person examining the records did not have the old fingerprints' and that is what happened. >> secretary johnson on
june 29 senator grassley to introduce a bill called sarah is law and with a mandatory detention provision of the nationality act to require the federal government to take custody of anyone in the country illegally that is charged with the crime resulting in death or serious bodily injury. we talked a lot about this can resonate in honor of a young woman from i was killed and a drunk driving accident in omaha nebraska the behind the wheel of the vehicle was an illegal driving drunk three times over the legal limit driving illegally when local law enforcement reached out to vice to detain the driver
and they declined to do so and he posted bond and remains at large. in a letter i received in may to simply put that he should be in custody in and should have qualified as an important interest in that memo, of 2014 but since then we have been told i ice in the field offices to consider anyone who kills an american with the important federal interest in the prairies for a detention and for the of record that this was not a top priority to begin with and regardless in the field office they didn't
receive any confirmation so it is the up policy of ice or not there is no written confirmation so can you confirm that the ice field office has been instructed to detain illegal immigrants , not convicted but charged with the death of an american citizen and quick. >> i am very familiar with the case. it is a tragic topic. we have reiterated to the field that there is an important federal interest provision in our priorities if that has been sent to the field and just yesterday looking at the numbers of
the implementation of the of policy we irritating them to be that to do so. >>, tetons that has been used quite. >> not offhand. >> so we see an increase? >> yes. >> do you have any from the update where ed wynn is located greg. >> and know from my communications we along with local law-enforcement garlicky for him. >> to believe him to be in the country? >> i cannot say. >> for director, we will move onto different topic.
in your testimony having passed the 15 year mark the array of factors in is broader and wider than it has been at any time the issue that i have been focused on is the rise of physis and southeast asia are you concerned with this and what you believe to be the potential impact on national security quick. >> terrific question per car just returned from southeast asia over the last two weeks because i was concerned about the caliphate blokes to expand a round of world. se asia and the number of countries where the ideology could find fertile ground. as you will know that . after 9/11 southeast asia was an active theatre for all kinda as they posed a
major threat to u.s. interest of our partners. we have no looking back there is the potential hot so on where there -- zone where there is a possibility to take root but my trip there was to engage with our intelligence partners to make sure we we're doing with the director is talking about what that exchange of information to get ahead of this. therefore fighters making their way to iraq and syria seeking to identify individuals to connect in their home country so that same phenomenon of the europeans are dealing with weir's seeing in southeast asia so we are applying many of the same tools. >> director johnson, with those terrorist elements
existing do we see in the application to those potential members of isis or other groups? to recede them travelling into the united states? amex senator robb i answer that we continually reevaluate our targeting rules that we apply how we assess someone entering the country. based on the threat streams. as people seek to come here and then to be denied entry altogether. >> we know who they are
worried about to put them in the database to stop them from getting an. >> very good. >> mr. chairman first of all director they keep for coming to north dakota to address what i think is a critical problem in our state and across the country with the lack of criminal justice support for the native populations. with the germanic increase and to say what they doing? and ino we may have a disagreement of additional resources but we want to find out what it takes to protect these communities especially the = the fbi plays with indian country in
terms of primary jurisdiction. suggested that things on the record but not as many questions but one of the trends that i have seen with very high profile incident of terror and mass shootings is a history of domestic violence. taking a look at the system of checks are how violence plays to those early warnings of someone with a violent background. imus anybody who says that commits an act is a terrorist but if we look at those circumstances we see more that. so what redoing to close the loopholes?
he thought he would come hereabouts getting a question on the northern border but i am concerned with staffing. with the need to continue our collaboration into canada. we are blessed with a relationship with law-enforcement historic the very collaborative. sauternes advanced the work the administration started so to talk about drugs on the southern border. so most of the ranchers will tell you they're concerned about trafficking they believe drug czar coming across the border and we saw a picture of a cannon dash shot marijuana across the border.
so going back to the questioning of of a discussion of us diatribe with director kobe is one of the challenges in is methamphetamines. is supplied driven if we have a logical discussion about issues of immigration we need to take a look at border security to make sure we're doing everything we can to respond to what those on the ground dorsey high appreciate those who work for your agency doing a terrific job. and the great work you are doing without reach to communities that could
become radicalized minneapolis is an area you have denigrate deal of work in real populations have moved from fargo to minneapolis. how do we take that more broadly you're not as concerned about radicalization and may not be the most helpful message. and how we build those relationships long-term. others will. >> you are welcome to come to fargo. [laughter] >> the immediate answer if community leaders could be encouraged in the future
with the initiatives that could benefit from somebody like that. >> with that community policing model where we have dialogues with community members with eyes and ears on the ground is how we will do a much better job to defend the homeland with the best defense is a good offense. with those protective measures that need to be taken. and i hope with this administration is the project that can have very high priority for i yield back. >> case for all you do for
the country. i appreciate your work. as you look over your shoulder all the time you very much appreciate your work. could you pass on my appreciation as well? he has had a tough job with serious transitions in the lot of that is still in process and that appreciation as well. from a purely parochial statement to have a private system to issue driver's license it is an ongoing process to fill that because of the unique system. that they don't mind and it
takes about five minutes. did retry not to lose that power. let want to talk on several issues but is one of those threats that is difficult to track that is trending the wrong direction how people are inspiring and you mention often. so what do you see currently with the home grown violent extremism may? >> we continue to work case is trying to assess where someone is to the acting spectrum that is short and unpredictable. >> it is not illegal.
but suddenly those that look bad it it turns violent very quickly. >> it is protected speech to say i am a fan of the islamic state so our challenges to figure out where people are we have 1,000 investigations. of there is any good news with the rate of increase has slowed. my hope is it will follow the same trajectory as a traveler numbers and head down but has yet we're still opening and closing and picking up slightly. >> sui have foreign fighters that have returned back to europe? what is the number that we think have tried to travel to that region from the united states could. >> it is in the dozens. >> soviet in the thousands.
how are we doing tracking those individuals from europe to the united states? >> senator first of all we have added a lot of security around the waiver program. we get more information through the electronic system with travel authorization be denied travel to a lot of people as a result of the added security. >> help me understand the phrasal lot of people. >> i have seen the statistics. in the first year we added questions to the electronic system my feet we denied as a result people and the thousands i can get you exact number but congress passed last year which is
also limited the ability to travel the set free and congress keep me authority to add countries in the ticket vantage of that. more broadly is incumbent on us to continue to work with the e.u. to share the data for federal air marshal agreements. for the pre-clarence without football analogies earlier defending on the 1 yard line three clearances' the 50-yard line to screed affront and. we had a number of foreign airports and building that with us as a priority we will keep at it. >> there is an internal
issue would you most concerned about as we have clear oversight dealing with h.r.. went dhs was formed as i recall the number in 2011 was reaching for hundred 42 total independence systems dealing with a chat -- d.h. us h.r. then they have the standards of 15 main areas that they want to accomplish . gao said in 2015 of those those, only one is accomplished of the 77 projects i believe two or three have then completed. so at the end of 2016 where do think we will be to compile this different system?
>> it is a good question to reduce the number of these systems i have to get you the exact number. gao addresses the iris guy comes on their high-risk list we hope to get off in the suit -- immediate future >> of the 148,000 figure prints, where are we to get those digitized? >> nine months. >> complete press. >> this is one of the areas i am concerned about. with so much on your plate have a very unique connection with the destabilizing central america coming from the united states and to
destabilize these immigration issues give me an update where ec with the movement of drugs and gang activity. >> the two major trends to highlight, nearly all of the hair when and methamphetamines is is being produced in mexico now. and highly pure heroin is coming away from the east coast to the west now the methamphetamines going west to the east now their overlapping so they're using gangs in the united states as their distributors as importers those are the two most important macro trends at this point. >> this is an interesting
committee we really have to committees homeland's security minnesota cover mental oversight. we have pretty much end to codify including the department of homeland security so with those national security procedures five could be remiss if i didn't pick up the mishandling of classified information. classified information if we miss scandal you can employ only people's lives at risk. certainly far adversaries have access if their behavior may change.
the best possible thing i can get with the negotiating partners find out where they are coming from. if that e-mail say to blackmail officials said to have that classified information is important issue and important to protect. director kobe, when all said and done those evils that were so top-secret not one member of this committee can have access. with your investigation could you expose? to make yes because i have the proprietary and blue dash clearance that was a special access program as did all investigators analyst correct.
it is unclassified. >> peabody e-mail and the secretary understood that? is obvious when you send e-mail to the start -- the state department or to clinton. whenever the handle. >> i am not sure what the secretary e-mail address was a lot of people felt it was not visible. >> but everybody knew they were not on a classified system spirit that is the only system used for classified material so you don't have five different systems to be communicating the top secrets. >> we have three systems classified secret or top-secret see you are supposed to use the
information appropriate. >> see you are mishandling classified material. >> yes. >> then your press conference you said no reasonable prosecutor would bring this case but in fact, does couple of cases are you aware of? of a naval reservist in the afghanistan he was not prosecuted so he pled guilty to avoid prosecution of unauthorized removal of classified materials u.s. ordered to surrender security clearance and find $7,500 and other a contractor translator added naval base pled guilty to misdemeanor from handling documents and had to term served so how are they different?
>> all the cases prosecuted prosecuted, i went through 40 years of cases they were all in my head it remember the second one but so there are fast amounts of and then but he tried to destroy when the investigation began. >> yes? >> march spanish she had a personal e-mail account then chairman cavity. the following day it hit at and some where between now and basically destroyed
evidence. >> reload terry hard to see if there was criminal-justice. one of those granted immunity leading up after the public unification we looked very hard economic the obstruction case but the department to granted that but did anybody tell you or ask you? >> my concern when all said and done with secretary clinton is by not prosecuting anybody really do signal we have to justice systems. so what will that do n terms of other people charged with responsibility to properly handle information? i you concerned with the actions you have taken?
to make every recommended where we would recognize that we would never consider but my goal is to treat people fairly without regard to their rank. it was done in that way. otherwise but i am proud to have the work that we did. >> employee dam mine last. >> if the hills i was like to ask to be submitted for the record of the e-mail exchange between secretary clinton and former secretary
of state-funded colin powell was one of the people live most of meyer. >> without objection. >> i will change the subject a little bit for secretary johnson and i would like to talk about trans partnership banned it was not clear why to tell you what is it does with the national program i haven't been down there so i very much support those efforts to streamline that to but then they call it the
to turn the corner and to to meet employees' we have a more transparent hiring system in promotion system. the department wide mission statement and we are dust -- with the mission people are responding. it is significant to note the level of satisfaction most significantly with the immigration components. i swear it duffel seven percentage points and these are two very large government agencies of themselves.
to make the more streamlined and to note it was members of the committee that management reform these to be one of the priorities if confirmed. >> thanks to our witnesses today in defense of our nation you have a tough task with professionalism and passion. this may be your last appearance the u.s. joined in the chorus particularly a and michigan to engage with uh community as most are not
aware of the valley stirred population. you have better actively engaged and that is part to of the community approach you were recently there at the beginning of the hearing and folks need to know what is happening and how that is the template how we handled the issue around the country >> senator you have some dedicated and terrific d.h. as personnel who took the initiative for the middle east and but not exclusively dhs people and around that teach right and several
course to talk about threats although we have of discussion of the media threats to be actively engaged but i stay at that night feeding of the future threats and if we are adequately prepared and we have some testimony here with bio defense and dietary some regarding findings with by a defense in a basically declared the united states is not prepared for biological threats. the gao also found in is fragmented and lackey strategic oversight for efficiency and accountability. henry should be prepared that i am up to.
i appreciate that and i realize you have multiple threats and have to make those assessments on a regular basis. certainly something of this nature as you mentioned even if the probability may be lower at this point the impact is significant and when you look at the new technologies coming on board, in some very nefarious ways it has some potential but you can buy these fairly inexpensively and presents some significant issues. i just want to touch on cybersecurity, another area that is critical. i had the opportunity to meet yesterday and visit with folks at the cyber command and i've encouraged by the cooperation i
saw. a couple of you mentioned how we are working together. i saw that firsthand. it's an area of vulnerability when it comes to cyber risk it is usually the weakest link and also the agencies have hard systems i think of small business and others we know some of the attacks we have seen through contractors tied to a larger organization so i see something that can't threats with local governments, municipalities and small businesses. things we should be doing in congress to aid those efforts because i know all of you are very aware of that. that. >> first i'm appreciative of the law congress passed last year that has aided what we do.
you talk about the weakest link. the weakest link is always an employee owned to the missions of the very basic thing all of us need to do is raise employee awareness to the hazards of spearfishing. the most sophisticated attacks occur. >> i would like to change the direction of my questioning with issues of race in america. there's been a lot of talk lately about law and order. you and i had a city with high levels of crime and focusing on that it's critically important. but we make a distinction in america between the law and order which is baseline but we seek a high here level of
standard and that is justice. we pledge allegiance to this idea of liberty and justice for all. we look at the highest ideal equal justice under the law. birmingham in 1960 there was a lack of justice and many people complained when some outside agitators came in the early breaking some laws that exposed the fact there was law and order without justice. kane wrote eloquently about that distinction focusing on the difference between law and order which he used germany and other areas of places that have law and order but not justice. we are americans and we strive for that idea.
what frustrates me is 50 years from this time we seem to be dealing with the same issues. the commission put forth by jones and 50 years ago was seeking to diagnose why there was so much rioting and the report identified police incidents as the most common cause and criticized the overt policing of the black neighborhoods. what frustrates me is you read the report and the letters in the birmingham jail and your courageous words that you see we are still struggling with those issues. he gave a speech that i found amazing. "the new york times" called it a candid speech and for the record this is what you wrote of the ongoing protests throughout the country into the assassination on the police officers we are at a crossroads as a society we can
choose everyday lives hoping someone somewhere will do something to ease the tension to smooth over the conflict. or we can choose to have an open and honest discussion about what the relationship is today, what it should be, could be and needs to be. if we took time to better understand one another. much research spreads to the widespread existence of the racial bias. many people in the white majority culture have unconscious racial bias and react differently to a white face and then a black face. in fact we all carry these around with us. but if we can't help your biases we can help our behavior in response to these reactions which is why we need to work to design systems and processes that overcome the human part of
us all. though the research may be unsettling it is to do next that matters most. you are incredibly courageous in this speech about talking about the racial bias in policing. you and i both have an adherence to the idea of data. we have wireless conversations in america. sometimes it seems we are not even talking to each other or leaving with courageous empathy. when i'm frustrated about is why i think we need that courageous empathy to create the understanding to heal as a country we still consistently 50 years at the report based on data have different standards of justice being applied to different communities in the country that's creating understandable tension and frankly if we solve the overt policing of the report being
done in other areas of affluence, we would have a very different reality in american politics because it wouldn't be tolerated. now you go on in this great speech to talk about specific needs that we have. i asked my staff to tell me how many were shot by police. the demographic data regarding the police involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through the uniform crime reporting program. the data is incomplete and therefore is not available. i recently listened to the police chief and i stop here to sastopped thereto say you and iy
are trying to do very good things about the implicit racial bias. there's a lot of good thoughtful leaders in the country that recognized this as a problem. his frustration with the lack of reliable data he said if peoplee didn't know whether the police shot one person a week, one a year or when a century and with the absence of good data only get our ideological thunderbolts when what we need our ideological agnostics to use information to try to solve a problem and you say he is right. i don't want to be here 50 years from now listening to my kids and grandkids struggling with what should have been done in the 1960s when the police leadership like you called for understanding the idea of what does exist in the country which is a racial bias so i put forth
legislation saying let's get away from the ideological thunderbolts. we can't solve a problem unless we manage to. i want your opinion on basically what you stated clearly on the need for the national collection on police interactions. >> you a lou allowed so many peo go over. >> there are three questions i would ask based on the testimony and others. first, secretary johnson it appears now the administration has brought in 10,000 refugees
and one of the ways we could minimize any kind of risk would be to establish criteria. i suggested women, children, relatives, the financial wherewithal to support them. is the department in any way, shape or form in the criteria or are we vetting whoever is providing us in terms of taking refugees? >> we establish criteria in the following sense. the state department and the agency we focus on people we think would be good candidates for the resettlement in the united states. that's number one. we have criteria in the sense that we've added security checks to the process and if you fall into a certain criteria, there's going to be extra vetting. that was particularly true
around the syrians and so, we need the 10,000 by searching a lot of resources and having a lot of people to it, but we do have criteria and it's not all public and shouldn't be tha bute added security to the vetting process. >> you're fairly confident that it's been robust and we sponsored the act and would have asked you three gentlemen to certify that. are you very satisfied that the 10,000 of the word into the country represented no risk to america? >> i'm satisfied and comfortable that we put a lot on this process with a lot of additional security a lot of additional personal power and i know for a fact an awful lot of the 10,000 our families, women and children fleeing violence and terrorism and will be honest hard working
people in this country. >> in the testimony we talked about more robust use of social media. looking at that when we are evaluating the refugees can you describe that in greater detail? one of the things i've suggested, why not have anybody seeking refugee status come in with their devices and basically have a plug-in program that can rapidly scan these things and how are you doing it? are we trying to utilize technology to the maximum effect? >> i want to expand the use of social media for the visa fee travel for example. we have a comment here code thae just completed on adding social media questions in the fiesta system right now. >> but those are questions.
is there any automated system where you literally ask people to come in with their devices, plug it in and damn. >> we have a system we need better technology so that it's not manual. >> it is manual and time-consuming which is why we need investment in the technology so that we can look at the social media not just for the refugee vetting but a host of things this department and others may use it for. >> my guess is that i ought to e rapidly developed. am i incorrect? can you weigh in on that one way or another? >> i don't have any specialized knowledge on that. >> it's something we work hard to develop to go through huge amounts of media and publicly available social media so there are tools out there whether it is fit for this purpose or not i don't know.
>> i would suggest you work together on that. finally, i do want to talk about such watchlist. i want to make sure people understand what we are talking about here. from my understanding, the massive database is tied to the environment and i'm not sure i don't want to talk about numbers but there's the terrorist screening database and then much smaller subsets are no-fly lists, correct? none of these lists are ever developed what they were they wd for law enforcement use to give you an indication if you should investigate or someone should be pinged for further investigation, correct? >> there is intelligence databases and standards to get the identity in.
>> they are far from perfect, correct? >> correct. >> the standard for getting out of databases are not exactly what you'd call completely tight. let me put it this way. they were never intended to deny the american's constitutional rights, that would be a misuse of the list? >> i hope it is true o this is f our work. >> hell do you get off the list? >> either when an investigation has been closed and then the agent sends the appropriate notification to have the name removed or you make use of the redress procedures to challenge and then have your name removed if it is a mistake. >> of course you have to know that you'v you're on the list.
>> a bureaucrat would make the final determination. you don't have the ability to get redress in the courts. >> people do and have gone to court to challenge me on that as i recall. >> that you have tbut you have u are on the list. >> i will understand if you don't want to speak to this in an open session but i think you've had somyouhad some resert utilizing those in terms of those lists tipping off. are you willing to speak to that at all? >> i just want to be thoughtful about any operational impacts to anything that we set up. >> my time is up. i'm happy to let you respond. do you have any further questions? >> it's ironic i was given a question about the law and you
did not equally applied the rules. why don't you finish. you even said to somebody i will let you go a little longer and right before to be incredibly strict with your application of the rule -- >> i cut other people off as well. >> i would like for the record of the detailthe details of howe went over so i can point out to the chairperson how many minutes he allowed other people to go over and when i bring up issues of race and the wall you cut me off. >> and thathat is an absurd characterization but now you can get your answer. >> i would like but for the record so you can see how you are conducting the hearing. i'm going to finish my last speech going back so i can-the issue of data. the first step understanding what is going on in the communities and the country is together more and better data related to those that we arrest.
opposed to the conference for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety and those who confront us. the data seems to be dry and boring. without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better. can you please comment on the lack of data in regards to the policing and how hard it makes it to address the issue of the racial bias? >> thank you senator. this is one of the most important issues that we confront as americans. there's all kinds of people with tremendously good hearts i in te wall enforcement, not in law enforcement, communities of color protesting. every single one of them is guided by actual data and information. every conversation in my view about the use of force and race in this country is uninformed. people have tremendous goodwill
trying to resolve these things. what we can contribute is information for the reasons you say so the people that care deeply about these things can come to solutions practical and just. we simply must collect data that is reliable nationwide about the police use of deadly force in thaltercations and encounters wh civilians. if there's anything more detrimental than that i can't imagine what it is that we are in a situation now we have newspapers that are the only source of that kind of data and it isn't comprehensive. we are going to do this. one of the beauties of the term is i'm not going to shut up about this. i have ten years ago and w to ge will build a nationwide database that shows us what happened and what are the circumstances so that we can have informed conversations. no one in this country knows whether the use of deadly force against any particular group of african-americans most particularly his upcoming down
or sideways. nobody knows to be having epidemic of violence. we could, we might not, we simply must gather the information so that we can care deeply and focus problems. >> i celebrate your leadership on this issue as it was said in a speech you gave and remarks right now but the one thing i will ask is where we do have data it shows an alarming fact pattern in the country not only in a study that you cite about the racial bias in your speech for the department of justice has dozens of police departments including the one where i was even surprised a that the data they collected to create transparency. we do now have the data showing very dramatically from new york city to new orleans to ferguson showing dramatic biases and policing a. doesn't that lead you to believe when you see this fact pattern
that we don't just have a problem in the united states to a nation that aspires, don't we have a policing crisis in the country given the data that we do have? >> we have a problem where the divide is opening between law enforcement and communities especially the african-american community. it is the cause is for i causese complicated and long-standing but not inclusive. we have things we can do better in law enforcement that are obvious and we are working hard to change. where i think we can close this is everybody wants the same kind of policing. moms and dads and law enforcement. up close, responsible, firm and fair and transparent. we are safer when we have it into the good news is there's a ton of leaders who feel as i do and we are going to drive that
closer together because it is the way to save lives in this country. >> as someone that ran the police department we have incredible leaders out there with an overwhelming majority that seek the same thing as the black community and other communities and frankly who are under celebrated in the daily heroism that they show in conducting their jobs as i just mentioned earlier in my testimony to questioning about the police officers it goes on every single day. people out there putting themselves in harms way who do share our same values that what you pointed out a lot of this sometimes people are not even aware.
it's all coming up with the same set of data that do not have the police prisons that are now full of folks whether it is vermont but they have 11% of the prison population that's african-american or states like mine that's dramatic throughout the entire justice system. we've got to get to the core of this understanding of what we can do to begin to correct this racial bias and i would conclude with saying your prescription cannot get there unless we first engage in an objective dispassionate analysis of the facts and the data and the fact we don't collect them 56 years after the report is outrageous and unacceptable.
how do we protect the homeland and i want to thank the senator for adding something that i didn't expect and i want to say to the director thank you for the way that you've engaged on what i think we all know he is a really important subject. we have the nation that we would address and fix some of the problems that led to 9/11 and allow that to happeallowed it tf the problem was the stove piping of information to work together and talk together and you said several times we are not perfe
perfect. find out what works and to do more of that and everything i'm due i know i can do better. i must say i am encouraged by the way we worked together. one of my favorite detroit tigers [inaudible] but in the middle of the season he announces he's going to retire. they do at the beginning of the
season in spring training so i just don't have anything left anymore. he called the press corps to the tiger dugout in july and said i have an announcement to make. we are going to treat you back to your family but best wishes and our thanks to your family. >> thanks, senator carper i would like to express my appreciation working with senator johnson with a lot of good work you've improved the department so thank you for your service to the nation attending the hearing record will remain open until the 12th of 5 p.m.. the record is adjourned.