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tv   James Mitchell Discusses Enhanced Interrogation  CSPAN  December 11, 2016 7:30pm-9:01pm EST

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so that goes back to the mother to say i don't care if he die as if he fought well but then you realize mass burials on long island from cholera. 10,000 people buried in new orleans out one time with the mass trenches from dysentery and cholera. said those trenches of the civil war were not new but part of society and of course, what was going in general was pretty well known by then and extrapolated as the armies gathered together more people died from disease than from battle. >> but it was more noble to
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die of that then sitting at home. >> i'll like to present our guest with the national press club mug. [applause] the fare is friday november november 18 and he will sign books there as well. so leave us with uh take away don't give away everything but i read this over the course of the week but what do i get? >> induce a sense of the supreme so sacrifice in a
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very precarious position. we really could have won in 22 countries that that momentum was more than blind devotion it was adjusted quest for heroism or mythology but there was a belief it was complected some thought they were fighting for the union some thought they were fighting to free of the slaves some thought both but there was that kind current belief that it was different from many different perspectives for a cause greater than themselves with all the research that i had did. >> thanks for being here. [applause]
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. >> good morning welcome to a eia -- a.e. e i a now 15 years after the and 2011 attack and it feels like yesterday's everyone of us remembers birthday word and house sent the whole nation was that the ability of terror to penetrate our defenses we were all
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wondering what did they want and who attacked us and what were they planning? we take for granted we know the answers to those questions carried out by outcry that at the orders of the osama bin modern conceived and executed by a operational commander of khalid sheikh mohammed but in those early days we did not know that we knew almost nothing of the enemy or he was the operational commander for what they were planning and unbeknownst to less the way to carry out the second wave and then not northeast networks to a lookout for the arab men and they had a series of attack plans that are guest knows very ball. but not 9/11 reid did not
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know any of that. beginning in 2002 leading to the capture senior terrorist leaders and the mastermind of 9/11, khalid sheikh mohammed and it allowed them to round up all key members and dismantled of to stop the attacks that they had planned. today we year honored to have the man who'd interrogated those terrorist and got them to provide that information the same time so many american lives, james mitchell. since those 15 years nobody has heard from k. as saddam. but dr. mitscher hot -- has spent thousands of dollars to look directly into the sun evil and begin to understand the terrorist mind because he told him
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what drives them and now for the first time dr. mitchell in is not sharing his opinions on the counterterrorism policy and plans for new attacks and ultimately by a ksm thinks they will prevail his new book "enhanced interrogation" inside the minds and motives of the islamic terrorists trying to destroy america" offers a first-person account of the interrogation program and those who would do that again if they had the chance this is the first time he is speaking and public about this sabir very honored that you chose to join us here at a e eye. >> face for having me. >> so those details have been widely discussed and i am sure when we get to q&a
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we can discuss that the primarily what have you learned? and just so people understand the conversations with ksm he was strapped to go water board can you explain the difference between enhance interrogation debriefing ksm to about three weeks. so our goal was to give them to be willing to engage for
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what they previously were doing in wednesday started be switched to social influence because we know the real way you get the cooperation is not to coerce it out but provide that information added is pressured it is an tabasco's questions but i have dealt with 13 or 14 of the worst other than ksm. nine of them refuse to identify what they had done. we weren't looking for confessions because they
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will not stop the attack we need actual intelligence. but to get that deal with is to get through the enhanced interrogation is to use social influence after that to get the information that you want. so what we did is we moved very quickly to a debriefing and the way that worked with the caa interrogation to question nippers and deliberately trying to withhold information and was tossed dial and usually involve the possibility although we weren't unauthorized. singh is they started to work with us we moved away from that. after words gradually to bring that subject matter
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the guy you want to ask is whatever the question this that they have someone case the person who wrote the daily brief so we bring in other people without any type of coercion add all in one state were a complete any able so we setback to go live in the beginning but you need your wm the experts by huge numbers at experts in the field that i think is irrelevant to give me
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briefings, but was expected so interrogation stuck about two weeks so now the rest of the time with the c.i.a. there never subjected again. never. ksm had three weeks than never again that even when they were trying to find out the location or get him to provide information to allow us to identify the courier when we knew he was lying. but they would be used to stop catastrophic attacks and if not that he was not interested. and they were not interested either. they did not want them to find out where somebody was hiding. their word interrogation san debriefings specifically with intelligence requirements and those with
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uh detainee's. we did have grave concerns once started to work with us to go sour because they were an isolation with so we would stop by to pay board games or go to the basketball court or watch a movie. but in fact, we did a lot of bad n ksm he will sit there and talk but he wants to tell you things with it to clients of things that he did. he had a dry eraser's board and he loves to lecture so be was listen to him lecture
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and occasionally something useful cannot of that but the other thing is team lead talk about lauzon his mind. so he would tell you about his religion in my book take all of those things from the beginning and bring them to gather to talk about in one setting but those things that i write about is not one session for we asked them to tell us about the religion. >> so they take people from resistance? >> but they never fully
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cooperated. there is nothing we could have done - - could have done to ksm but he told us inadvertently by lying. >> lot of people said the interrogation program had nothing to do with the operation against osama bin modern-day resisted bayou have nothing of value? >> it is true that ksm lied to us. what is not true is we did not know what that meant. it is true that they would like to u.s. but that does not sure we did not know what that meant. ksm nephew, after we ran uh
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debriefing stage tells us that ksm told me that he delivered to a point m chief of external operations so now we year interested so we believe from 2002 but here we have the guy who says there is a courier that delivered of a letter so he said ksm did it he said no, no, no.
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he was a protege he was and is as yet he doesn't know what he is talking about. and then he said he lies. he is lying to you. i don't know what he said. so we wonder why he lies? it has to be important. what most people don't know is they had established a secret way to communicate with each other to get the messages out to the troops. but we knew that. it will left in their reappointed to see what he said. asking him about and he says he quit then he puts in a secret message would everyone do don't tell them about the career. so what we are thinking is
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not here is a relatively cooperative died to probably experience is the worst that you can add is willing to risk going back to that identity of the one courier so a eventually they got to have mendes said i don't know who you are talking about. said to last all of these other detainees. >> and was a facilitator of the high-level facilitator working when if ksm and he as disappeared it could be
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him. he moves people he works for him to make it clear that the other was a smokescreen. also we had one detainee who said one of to get to her but then they fell into place then those brilliant men and women and could put it together there was a partial trade name for the courier that was already in the database that we did not
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know how important that was. but i interrogated the shortest interrogation ever of 10 minutes and after that he move almost immediate the end to debriefing, he said this guy has a speech impediment. when he talks he talks in arabic and passed to -- pashtun then they can figure out where he lived because we were told he was likely to be staying left osama bin laden because he had no outside contacts so then they tried to find out if he was staying with him. and dad is a process that
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happened. it wasn't that somebody's hands were on the steering wheel assembly was cutting off their fingers it was hard work done on the part of the cia analyst with that actionable intelligence as it becomes actionable only in us a greater context. >> they say we are already have the name it would have gotten this information anyway. >> the problem with acting is whiff a detainee in the beginning they say tallis everyone you think everybody with osama bin laden but it does not highlight their importance suicide picking up the phone book to say
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that we should know he would rather gas station. that isn't the way it works. you need sound cue to take hugh to that piece of information to highlight the importance. it is clear in my book but, second use a happier the guy you gave them his name was dead. they thought he was dead. the smart and clever work by the analyst to could to determine they confused him with his brother and actually he was alive. in hindsight it is easy is site doing a puzzle because you know where they are at one. but the people who put this together, these analysts
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were brilliant to get back into that database and pieced together the matrix was amazing. >> what they use it is like putting together a puzzle with thousands of pieces and what day. >> but the only to detainee's that word denied as the courier or ksm. the rest were providing bits and pieces of information. >> nobody has heard from ksm since 9/11 we have not seen in interviewed or maybe just one picture after he was picked up.
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>> is actual capture photo. in the book thiokol him the devil. in the beginning he was belligerent. really belligerent. here is what you need to know about ksm. ksm tumor three days was held in pakistan and tried to be debriefed by cia officers and it is and one of those words dressed up in the pakistan redress and then later described as a clown. most of the time and then he
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acted belligerently. that is a lesson for today. some people say you to get more ad of the high-level detainee but not with ksm. he said i will not give up my god for a handful of dates? would rethinking? that is when he described the behavior of the other person. then he went where he was treated badly but then any case he had an opportunity to answer the question with no coercion at also the way
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that it works with the assist to do something and say neutral assessment to say this is the information that we want to say we need to stop operations we have reason to suspect and said he may hear from me when i get back to washington dc talk to the cowboy george bush and talk to my lawyer. said that would not happen but then he says he will not was asked about these other attacks he said he will know. then i go into this thing great detail in the book but basically i am a little
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spiel that i say in every man's life in there are moments of opportunity and times with the decision they make forever changes your future in you cannot go back understand this is one of those times you haven't so i walked out of this room. we know you don't know everything and people are doing things in your name. so then the next time but then to have the chance to think about it. >> so yes he was belligerent
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and madison to and then terming. and after they were over a would say sometimes you rub his belly sometimes you spoken in the iberian gabelli breading stage with ksm not the david really do some i poking but think they have to be perry mason but none of that was necessary. if you got sideways with him then heaven help you because i have not seen this much raw brainpower and replace. he is probably the brightest person i have never seen in
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my life and i have seen some pretty bright people. he was very charming. but if the evil lurks evil then you can push back if it is prince charming then bring people back and then to use that analogy these people out there are jeff warriors i was tall and i am a of a mitt jaw hygiene and along line. but the world is already under strict sharia law i am just the warrior when i fall another will come up. you have already lost you just don't know that. is fascinating the way they think about that. >> talk about the time you
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were in the cell. vis that i have something important to tell you. >> don't want to upset daniel pearls parents with the whole story. . . in the pakistanis said the hardest part is to get the new material. and what if we are to have it. and so, wmd expert, should be
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persistent in should be persistent in an affair because he's probably been out for about a month, month and a half. we are sitting in there with her and she was asking her questions and she is done. and she leaves. we do this thing i call the fireside chat. when you take people out of steam on situation the dynamics the interrogations over. let's talk about how that went for you. bruce who's incredibly empathetic and liked better -- [inaudible] bruce noticed you were uncomfortable at times about the sometimes been a lady would ask
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you questions come even seem almost like you're going to say something, but she was told back in you wouldn't say it. live a couple couple of the sorts of things i like what were you thinking about that? go get the lady who takes the notes, which is a which is such insultingly called every female person who is three times as smart as we were it was actually a questions. but aig hottie islamists who don't think very much of women. he does go get the lady who takes the notes, so we bring her back and described -- describes tidiness had been dismembering him and burying him in a hole. i don't recall whether his mere purse, but one asked was that difficult for you to do, thinking emotionally. he said no the toughest part was getting through the neck bone. just like that. and then they started making concerted happy and it was creepy.
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>> does when you asked me -- >> is zero to the tivo shines through. >> he referred to daniel pearl as daniel and just had tone of voice. what you have to understand his case then thought that what he was doing to daniel pearl showed his god, the god of islamists, not the god of islam, it showed his god how much he loved his god because taking the life of someone who is helpless to prevent it like you see a crisis in neighboring people in cages or crucify children, taking someone's life is helpless to prevent it shows his glory and how much his influence lives.
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it's almost like an act of worship. not a hostile act. so he's talking as if they had done an immense iron. after it's over, we are walking back to the style and one of the guard says to me, that kind needs to die. he meant that the world would be a better place >> let's talk a little bit about islam. we often hear terrorist attacks on islam has nothing to do and pay a cent told you a lot about his fears. islam is religion of peace. >> ever answer that question but i want to make 1st. k. sm. a person who wants to impose
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sharia law on the whole world. if you're muslim and you're not an islamist, i'm not talking about you. when people talk about the ku klux klan are not insulted because i'm not a member of the ku klux klan in spite of what some media people which have the belief. i just don't get insulted by that. please don't take what i'm saying out of context. i'm not attacking all of islam. what i am saying is these islamists who want to destroy our way of life have a set of beliefs that make you incredibly dangerous. so your question was. >> what did he tell you? >> he said that islam is a religion of peace. >> one of the conversations i had with him was i said you guys are telling us a pharmacy religion of peace. but that about? he said it's a religion of peace. the world would be appeasement sharia law is imposed on the whole world.
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so we are religion of peace because we are trying to impose sharia law on the whole world. right now it's not at peace because you have all these different groups who believe that they can influence how things are going. he told me that the democracy and true sharia law could not coexist. we foolishly believe we get a vote in how is this. we can decide better fashions are, that we can decide the law sydney to be enforced, that we can change those laws. not sure. in his mind, how we're supposed to live was established 1400 years ago in the quran and the perfect words and deeds of the prophet. there's no question how we do that. i said i was obeyed. how can you say that this freedom of choice in your version of islam. how can you say that? he goes well, i am free. the perfect words of the prophet
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vomited indeed in the carron tells me everything i need to do in my life so i have to make choices. so i am free to do whatever is allowed. the exact opposite of the way that i think. he told us that americans didn't have the moral purge to do what would be necessary in order to prevent them from prevailing, that we were -- he told us and this is one of those conversations. not when it interrogated and get intel out of him. he told us that our civil liberties, our willingness to be tolerant of other people, and our openness, those were all flaws that allah had put into her character to ensure that
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islamists could win because they are just going to continue to do what they do what we make excuses for them. this excessive political correctness. i'm sure if i sat down and said what he think of this? he was paid not a flaw. and tell me that essentially what happens is that the cloaking devices they can operate in the open without being confronted. that is a big deal. he said to me that al qaeda -- but he did 9/11 he was in a of al qaeda. so he's basically a free agent at that particular point. he said that al qaeda dreams of bringing down america is catastrophic attacks but that's not particularly practical. the real way to bring down america was with low tac lone wolf attacks because the target
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is not our military capabilities. it's not our buildings. it's not a rose. it the minds of america's. we don't have to defeat you. we only have to persist long enough to defeat yourself. we only have to persist long enough. i talked to apple hottie one time there was a military commander did a lot of attacks against americans. i was asking him how he stages ambitious, why they didn't stay there longer and try to kill more people. he said the only have to kill one or two americans because it's not the americans over there we are trying to kill. we kill enough of them the american people want you to turn tail and run and when you do, we will deal with his takeover. that is the way they've been. they think they've been given a special position by their god and the right to dominion over the world.
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not islam in general. they think that they've been appointed by their god to determine what your child's future is. and if they don't do that, this is the piece of art for people to understand. if they don't did not come that they will suffer the torment of the great. they will be judged on whether or not they participate in the gis and whether they continue to do that despite all the difficulties will be part of what happens when that the end of their lives there's this accountability. the piece that i come away knowing that i didn't know then was that they first off the depths of their belief. i don't think most americans understand that they no kidding believe what they believe.
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they do believe that there's a paradise. they do believe they'll end up a 70 spiritual beings that become virgins. they really do believe they'll be treated like rock stars up there and never have to want for anything. they believe that stuff. it sounds ridiculous to me. but they believe it. and the point that i would make is to those people who say 9/11 had nothing to do with islam, nothing to do with islam, i would say it that you and the world trade center there were people who thought the attack had nothing to do with islam, nothing at all to do with islam. but that's not what the little guy future of that plane into the building. it had everything to do with islam. what we are doing that's incorrect because i'm the guy interested in finding them and killing them. i can imagine a situation in
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which someone who is crucified a child or set them on fire in a cage or through people off with those names right now people to trees, i can imagine a situation in which i say here's how it really is. we beg you to like i said we don't mean to take -- because i didn't think of it that way. now that you put it like that i'm going to quit doing this horrible things. they don't think like that. when i say to them we really want to get along. we would like to get along with you. there's a reason for us to fight. the first think asm thinks that that's a weakness. that is something god putting your head so i can manipulate you. so we have to start thinking about terrorists the way they think about themselves do not have the big stink. in another life before it got caught up in the cia interrogation things, i used to do forensic evaluations were horrible people. brave face, murderers, child
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molesters. and what does it thought about by the perpetrator with attacking them had nothing to do. it mattered with the perpetrator thought. it matters what they think. so whether i think it has anything to do with islam or not is completely irrelevant. and that is what they think. >> kss told you it doesn't matter -- >> he said which you clowns don't realize is we are in a battle of civilizations. our civilization will defeat your civilization in part because you don't have the moral fortitude to recognize this for what it is. you may not be in a religious war with me, but i'm in a religious way with you and we are going to win because you don't acknowledge that. and if he did that, it doesn't
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matter that we would like to live with them and get along with them. it makes no difference at all because he will continue to press forward and they'll continue to press forward. >> we've heard a lot of voices on the left and the right in recent, as the rise of isis has come up saying the recent al qaeda attack us on 9/11 was they wanted to drive five minus yes and that is that jesus is trying to do in iraq is syria. they want us to try and bob down so they can kill us there. case and told you something very different about -- ksm told you a different response. >> this was years after it was over. we are there and we go when witches what were you guys thinking. >> boots are things the brain.
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that's what he liked to be called. so called. severe sentiments and called. severe sentiments and then they go what were you thinking? what did you think we were going to do when you guys not done this buildings and attacked the pentagon and wanted to take out the capitol building? he said full text they were surprised that the world trade center fell. when the world trade center fell, he said i thought it was a sign from allah that it is time to raise that. it was a beacon trine of their jihadists to us than the muslims around the world who share the same mindset would rise up and attack america. and then he goes but then i was lucky to survive the night. he said would do what you always do. the marine barracks in beirut.
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in 2000, the poll was poured out. they make it an fbi issue. 1998, two embassies blown out. two u.s. embassies turned over to the fbi. nothing happened. what i thought was to turn it over to the fbi. that would be the long investigation. we would have time to pull off another attack. and then he looks down and goes how was i to know that cowboy george bush with monistat or relied and invade afghanistan to get us? he said it just about like that like he was befuddled, like he couldn't imagine it. this ought to be a law-enforcement issue. apparently he was the other one who didn't know you don't mess with texas. it's not because of the terrain. the attitude of the people who live in texas. so he was startled by it. and in fact they had made steps
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to ensure the taliban wouldn't allow them to be turned over. they had helped the taliban killed the afghan alliance leader in an agreement that if it helped him kill that guy, they wouldn't allow them to be expedited. >> he told us he had been funding to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. and already had people lined up. i don't know whether they will already in flight school are on their way to flight school. and if we have handled it, he would have had time to launch the attack and they would be big smoking holes in los angeles, seattle because those are the targets he had. what he said was the veracity
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and the swiftness of george bush's response initially fleeing for their lives. they were trying to stay alive. it got them off balance enough counter and they couldn't pop up on the radio. they couldn't communicate with people overseas. they're incredibly frightened frightened to do anything. and when they started being able to get that back on track again because it was disrupted initially for delayed initially by the veracity of swiftness of george bush's response, we had captured people and through the use, they were falling like dynamo. what ended up happening is the people involved ended up being captured in the hope it was disrupted. i don't know about you guys, but i'm actually grateful that
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president bush did what he did. >> what else did he say? what was his view of george bush? >> every time he referred to them, he called them that cowboy. in that tone of voice. he just couldn't -- he thought bush was playing unfair. i was the thing that was so weird as he thought it was unfair that we didn't follow the template that we had followed before. there's a lesson to be learned here. this is the lesson for going forward. they base how vulnerable we are and what they could get away with that of opiate done in the past few years. look at what we've done in the last eight years and ask yourself what this isis and al qaeda think now?
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i'm not -- you know, i just don't think we can treat -- i'm going to make a little commentary that's going to anger some people. we are seeing increased attacks because they been trained to manage it like a problem. we've quit trying to find and kill those people who were going to destroy us and were trying to figure out someway to live with them in our midst. that's not going to work for these guys. it might work for 99% of other -- if you're an islamist and want to take over the united states by voting or by operating us, i don't have an issue with you. i really don't. good luck. but if you're an islamist to think the way to do it is to crash a plane into a capitol building and kill legislators, i have a problem with it. i don't want to see it happening. that's the problem.
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>> he tells you a lot of ideas he had for plot that could easily be carried out. i do when she say any thing that could endanger us. could you give us a flavor of his kind of thinking and also how dangerous would it be if he was able to freely communicate with the outside world? >> it would be horrific. he said that again he said that al qaeda trained at least large-scale attacks. but he got fascinated by the beltway sniper. remember that was going on and the other guy, mohammed hyde in the trunk of cars and shooting people. they killed 17 people in and around here. he was fascinated by that. and then he would talk about the economy of scale and what that actually means for attacks because that's what he's always doing. he gets up everyday and tries to figure out how to kill more americans.
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what he said his al qaeda streaming about these large-scale catastrophic attack and that would be great. but that's not all that practical. it is too slow. the target is and our buildings or tanks or military. the target is our mind. it's not going to be one with blood and bullets. it's going to be one in our heads. what you said is we are going to need lots of lone wolf. he didn't call them that. he called the single martyrs who would go into the american culture and pull off vo-tech attacks. but enough that those low-tech attacks like happened with the beltway shooter, it would cripple america. i can't really go into the attacks because there is an incredible incredibly easy. he said what we can expect as we
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will see more of that because like-minded others are going to immigrate to the united states. he's not saying that al qaeda is going to deliberately send people over although they've done that in the past. what he is saying is that there is fullness like himself are going to migrate to the united states, wrapped themselves in our civil rights to protect themselves, live off our welfare system, feed themselves, spread the energy hiding message and when the time is right, rise up and overthrow from within. he was pretty good i predict in the future. he said that to me in 2004. he said that about normal stuff and immigration in 2004. and he was just philosophizing. just sitting around talking about that stuff. this is that's coming next.
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get ready for it. >> at a lot of ideas for these attacks had president obama wanted to put these guys in federal prison. how dangerous would it be to put someone like ksm in federal prison. truck cartels have another present. if ksm was able to communicate with the outside world, what would that mean for our security? >> well, hopefully nobody would even consider giving him access to the outside world. that would be crazy. i have mixed feelings. i have to tell you. i don't want ksm on u.s. soil, but i've seen social security prison. he would be a lot worse off there than he is here. i wish we could build one on guantánamo a lead the country. if these 23 hours a day in isolation in one hour out in the yard and is yard and it's not
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about anybody else, that would be coming in now, some form of justice for him. but i don't think it would happen that way. doing what we should have done in the first place. let me tell you my reaction to having his confession set aside. ksm told me he was ready to be a martyr, that he was ready to martyr himself community was ready for the u.s. to execute him. when he got to guantánamo, he made up this long list of things he had done. 28 of them. he pled guilty in front of the administration. they set that aside to try him in new york. let me tell you what that little monster thought. this is a sign of god that i'm not supposed to monitor myself now, but instead i'm to continue to jihads inside of the court
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system. as soon as i saw them do that, i thought that little guy is going to be the most obstructionist defendant probably in the history of the military commissions. if you look at all the things he's done to disrupt that camille see what i'm talking about. he is a master at that sort of stuff and he thinks god is now commanded him to drag this out as long as he can because he believes it will pull more like-minded jihadist to the cause. >> some of the plot that he had conceived came out, like for example, poisoning reservoir. people pooh-poohed them and said that's ridiculous. how much would you need to poisoning reservoir. but he is told in this county was offended. >> i said was this business about poisoning reservoirs. i know you told us that, the folks in the united states are saying that sounds crazy. of course it's crazy. i have an engineering degree
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from the north carolina university. and i was a chief engineer at the water treatment plant and i don't want to say the country, that he was the chief engineer. he said i would try to poison the reservoir. that's a crazy thing to do. he described what it do. if i do that, you won't trust the system. the point is to get into her head not necessarily to kill us all. he said the same thing with the gas stations. that little guy but a gas station in pakistan said he could figure out how to build a bomb and slide down into the gas tanks at gas stations all up and down the east coast. and one of his operatives that he had in the united states at the time he was doing this at a
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gas route, driving gas tracks. filling up gas stations. if he had done anything other than treat it like an act of war, he would have been able to finish developing that using system. i work in explosive ordnance disposal. i know one of the problems with the land about device is you got a lot of liquid down there. so you don't get quite the burst that you would like to have if that's what your intention is. he's working on that. they've got a gas station. and what we are going to do is not really possible. the bridge was the same thing. a guy trying to figure out how to cut the brooklyn bridge. again, bomb disposal guy. we know how to cut engine blocks in half. their devices for cutting the
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grippy cables on bridges. devices that you shaped charges to do it. he could've done it and he didn't get to do it because the president and the cia and the brave men and women in the military and intelligence community did what was necessary to disrupt those attacks. >> his plan after 9/11 when he thought it was fun for us and less to do a lot of small-scale attacks around the country are in chasing those things while he was planning for the library tower attack. >> here's what they think. if i use up your resources, then that is jihads. so if i'm planning a great big attack he said the fbi after being at the multiple smaller attacks come at you if your resources to send my money. that gives me some cover to do that. brilliant man.
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>> during the campaign, donald trump said we are going to bring back waterboarding and worse. and then after many with general mattis, he said that never really worked for him and we are going to use cigarettes and to convince. .. >> >> but this is the real question that i was asked, would urge you give up information to get
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americans killed if you were captured by isis horror archive data plexus i don't think so. it is insulting to suggest the general would do that. ksm would not do that either somewhere with water boarding or worse in the army field manual one i feel there needs to be some 41 of legal coercion to move them along to start using social influence to get them talking again because i will tell you what i think i fake about them lie a dental phobia when is it that they tried hardest to go to the dentist?
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it was a mike is said talus about the next attack. what we told them was we know you have something that could help us we know you don't have everything but as you lay there you are thinking of something. that is what we want to know. and more often and then not if you take off the hood in ask the question they would give you a snippet then we could switch to move them through the debriefing. then the absence violation effected is a psychological
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phenomenon. and then to make a commitment to never ever again we will not do that. and then to say i eat the bag of these dogs but if i eat the first one i don't spit it out i eat the rest. because once you get past that what you said he will never do your resistance collapses it is the same with those who are hard-core about withholding information there is a phenomenon called the eight currying effect. if that is super eye and is
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reasonable because if i gave you the reasonable price because it has already been focused on the entire number it doesn't even have to be related you coulask the temperature of the sun and then see $11,500 and that 1500's does not sound like very much. and the this of question of different levels for every intelligence requirements for what they did not want to talk about they put it resistance and then to say the intelligence requirement
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because they're off the other topic we are just tricking their learning system so to provide answers . it is much more sophisticated that those in industrial cia thought kurt them until they tell you what they want to hear then hurt them again i am not saying that did not happen. but this cia did but they were supposed to do with accountability boards and did with they were supposed to do. but inside a daddy offical high adt devalue program we were not interested.
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sewed to talk about that if you did that i may be able to get you did tell me where you bought that one time i don't just want you to tell me where you bought that but interpret the letter or who gave them a $500,000. and now i feel like i am rambling but i will share this with you. that version of this long that they had businessmen to help your enemy. >> so i went from the status of resistance to a state of cooperation to say at what
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to do this. >> we just didn't like that. nobody should do that who looks forward to it is horrific. that was more like a surgical suite those who had guards anyone could stop that interrogation anytime they wanted. and then working with us over months and then to do that neutral assessment. and then to use them on bad
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information. he will tell us a mitt thing about the attack but we're not there to get a confession. in den the summer trying to destroy yes. to say we don't want to do this we don't want bowater boarding issue. you have to help us tell us how we can get around this. and literally if they help you is a sin to suffer the torment. and then to say more? not more, adjusting have. if you use more than what is
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required they will punish you if you use less than what is required the brother gives up the information they will punish them. he does not expect that to carry a burden that is too great to bear. aquino's i can do it so it has to be pushed to the point becky is right with his god so you're saying we need to do this to everybody ? i of starting to not like that. and they say no. some people can stand any pain. he said that is because i said and not because i think it is painful. they already know they can not hold out.
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it is already a san. but there is nothing you can do to get them to talk. they know that. and otherwise he will be punished but those are resisting to the best of their ability and then without worrying about the permanent. and then what that does for me is switch my perspective of what they think of how these interrogation is should be done and how do they interpret what we are doing? for example, this burden
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that is too great to bear at the worst of times in denial of funds to suggest to him they could work with the san did that have to as social influence to say i don't know about your guide but mine does not expect me to carry a burden that i cannot carry. he knows as some point i will put it down. he said my girl -- my god says the same thing. so one say that way he
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doesn't have to continue to resist. does that answer your question? >>. >> i can almost hear you. to the point earlier that there has to be agile legal direction? can you describe and satellite to get your reaction from the american is psychological association
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after the senate report can now with torture quick. >> so first let me respond to the american psychological association type of thing. they are not part of my life i don't care what they think. that report is full of mischaracterization is but the suggestion of the cia somehow colluded with the american psychological association that is poppycock. it is crap. has zero impact on my life and i don't care. the second point what should it looks like? i don't know what j. mitchell thinks it is irrelevant the public needs to have the debate about how
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they want to protect themselves and ask themselves and i would ask president-elect trump, what will you do away if credible evidence of another pending catastrophic attack? we did not know any better. and those that you are interrogating is not responding? what will you do? there are people in our government who say that the caa and interrogators would do the right thing and use whatever means necessary and then at trial, we would it take that into consideration. and but the problem with
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disrupting a tax is one don't happen but then they begin to think it was on top bin. that this particular issue i would say those who say that want to live under the protection of those who are willing to sacrifice their lives. i a don't want to be a part of that i have said before that some point of this obsessive political correctness continues, we're standing on the moral high ground looking into that hole that used to be several blocks in a lawsuit to assess some point they have to make that decision. so we turn them over to
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other countries this same word is happening in torture pet has lost its meaning. i had a reporter asked me one time, i will not say that. just because of the audience at a want to say that. maybe i will. [laughter] he said is this what you did was torture? said no. if they did they would not have to pass the law to outlaw that because it was already illegal. and five times of torture i
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water border almost as many lawyers decided terrorist. i just need one. other be willing to deal more than one. it sucks but if done properly and i am not advocating water boarding. most people don't know every
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single time it was stopped it was the in interrogators that wanted to stop there were people in the building that wanted to continue. but we just said the person is working with us. know i went off on a rant and forgot to. >> it is in my future they are coming from. i have a concealed carry permit i have thousands of shots the entire military career was spent how to defend myself and my wife is a better shah than ibm. so the american public has to decide what they want.
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what will they do with credible intelligence there is another catastrophic attack? but it will now work on ksm. if he was to talk the cia does not care where they get their intelligence if they can get that from you while they are willing they are happy with that. if law-enforcement techniques had been working day would have been happy. the fact is of the worst of the zero worst those at know that were trying to kill us there has to be a strategy to think that through. >> my question is to have more idea is of the
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organization and although differentiated, as they offer that very wide area area, how do you counter that narrative? and then to mitigate those groups? >> that is a very complex question. let me give you the answer okhotsk i think we should go about finding out the problem. we used to have something called the terrorist think tank was started to cooperate it is all relatively close to each other so afraid picked up a
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piece of intel we could go to each one of the surveillance of who is this guy? and then i go to a ksm who is he? but that guy in that back? we have spent training him
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dealing with terrorism is seen cyc it is more of an issue of prevention and management. >> first you will not win. that is the deal all they will do is retrieved. you have to treat the
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vectors and the source. we make it look sexy for that because we allow them to operate in the open. instead of confronting them we try to get them to like us enough's but all that does is convey to them that we are weak to put it in our mind that makes us vulnerable. somebody said diocese and outside the do not represent the existential threat to the united states. i will tell you what that means. i have then at this point of somebody says that i scheerer, they cannot kill enough americans to bring down our government. bar government doesn't exist to stack up the americans it
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is the opposite. and i am disturbed by that because it makes us look weak. >> i am told we're at the final question. wasn't saying ksm told you can you tell us quite. >> about 2,004 he said i understand why you do what you do i would do it myself to protect my country and the ideology. but your country will turn on you your leaders, the american people, the press, you're leaders will turn on you to save themselves. and they will portray the war, his words, the war against islam is too difficult to win and to
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cool. and not appropriate the american people will turn on you and that will just bring joy to the hearts of other like-minded ag heidi's kiss they will see you as we can divided that will bring them to our cause so expect that. and he is right. just as soon as those same people that criticized the caa to be deaf for word leading the same ones in to the senate chambers to bring them down for missing the first attack progress soon as they felt safe they crawl out from under the rock to start attacking the same people they demanded to more . we were told to do everything that was legal walk right up to the line put the toes on the line depending on the department of justice to tell us what
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that was. each time they told us the same thing something happened inside of a cia that was wrong that j. mitchell thought was torture but it wasn't. that was not part of the official program with the leaders found out they took appropriate action. >> i will close by saying the american people never turned on you. 76 percent of americans said they would do it again if necessary to protect the country's sole looking forward should we use these techniques? 17 -- 70 percent often only 20 percent said never justified. >> i will just say this. cannot for legally torturing
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anybody. if it is torture don't do it if it is illegal, don't do it. . .
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and they couldn't do anything to stop them. they could stop at any instant. they would have gone away and we did as quick as we could. because of what you did and your colleagues did, we were not hit again, so on behalf of americans grateful to you, thank you for keeping the country safe and joining us here again. [applause] >> the book is about me that i wasn't the only one there. by no means the credit. the men and women of the cia and the military, they can keep us safe from the military but not ourselves.


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