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tv   Kathryn Edin and Stefanie De Luca Discuss Income Inequality  CSPAN  April 9, 2017 12:00am-1:01am EDT

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>> last one. so, we as americans have a lot of freedom to express ourselves as you said earlier compared certainly to egyptians. if you were an american and you were not going to be an american or you are living in the united states now and you have a great deal of freedom and we have a great deal of freedom. if an egyptian came to the united states and had the freedom you have shouldn't we be going fascist online on social media. we are more free than you know. >> i didn't get the last part. >> we have more liberty than we even take advantage of. would you advise us to make more use of that liberty? does that make sense? >> first of all, i am in no way
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in the position to advise people how to use their liberty. that is one thing. and i think people should do whatever the hell they want. they want to go crazy on social media? do it. you want to go and insult people? do it. even if you want to be racist. we cannot stop it. i will give an example that is not american and more international. do you remember, of course, and this is something i give advice to my people. when people were offended by the charlie hebdo character and the danish cartoons before that and we were up in arms and i said you go and make them scared and what do you think will happen? you will close down charlie hebdo? bravo. you have the internet that is never closed. you cannot stop people. you cannot draw the line. i am sure. like one of the side effects of democracy is you have to listen to ideas and opinions you don't
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like. it is part of the problem. if you don't like it, you can chose not to see and not to see. but it is people expressing opinions. we live in a day and age that many of the ideas that kept in someone's mind and people will not say it in public. all our brains are splattered in social media and people see what is in sight and it is a scary place to be. that is human nature. people are expressing themselves and saying whatever they want. it is absolutely impossible. is it a good thing? it is a bad thing? i don't know. it is the way it is because there is absolutely no practical way to stifle the freedom of expression on social media no matter how annoying, how horrible, or how excruciating it can get. it is just the way it is. or else, you can give up
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technology. i don't think any of you is ready to give up on those instagram photo pictures you take every day. yeah. it is just we have to live with it. >> on that note, thank you again.
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>> booktv is n twitter and facebook. we want to hear from you. like us on facebook or send us a tweet. now on booktv, we are live from the 15th annual annapolis book festival. today you will hear from several authors on a range of topics from income inequality to a profile on pope francis and former cia director michael hayden talking about terrorism and intelligence. now first up in our coverage, here is a discussion on income inequality.
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>> good morning, we are here to talk with doctor stefanie eden a -- stefanie deluca and kathryn edin. dr. deluca uses research to inform education, housing policy, and she was awarded a william tee grant foundation scholar award to study mobility residential and family life among very poor families in the souths. she is working on a mixed study for the effect of baltimore housing programs on long term neighborhood and school equality and children's outcome. he contributes to regular and local and national media
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including the atlantic, the new yorker and national public radio. dr. deluca's work has been published in several academic journals and she has presented her work at the human of history. he has presented on as a fellow at the century foundation and as a member of the policy advisory board. she earned a phd in human development in social policy at northwestern university and bachelors in sociology. please welcome dr. deluca. stefanie deluca is one of the leading studies on housing development.
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she looks at the life of low in come men, women and children. she has authored six books including the one she is here to discuss "$2.00 a day: living on almost nothing in america" and some 50 journal articles. she is a bloomberg distinguished professor at john hopkins university. formally, she was a professor at the harvard kennedy school and chair of the multi disciplinary program in inequality and social policy. doctor edin is a founding member of the mcarthur network on housing and families with young children and a past member of the mcarthur network on the family and economy. they are co-authorers of the 2016 publication coming of age in the other america.
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which looks at research on baltimore children in the suburbs tracking their status on mental health, physical health and emotional behaviors. please welcome kathryn edin once more. let's begin with both of you taking time to discuss the books you are here to talk about. >> thank you so much for spending your saturday morning with us. this is a real treat to be here. i am going to take you back in time to 2003, i just finished a phd in chicago and moved to baltimore to take a job at john hopkins as somewhat of an expert on urban poverty except i
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managed to speak to not one single poor person while doing my phd let alone a poor person of color. you can get a ph.d and do that. crunching numbers, policy data, neighborhood data. it is perfectly respectable to do that but i am from the south side of chicago and back there you don't really feel like you know anything unless you talked to someone in person. at least that is how i was raised. it was getting to be too much and i had to get away from an p up -- away from the numbers and get out into the streets of baltimo baltimore and join the program kathryn started. i started looking at housing projects in baltimore city. i fell in love with baltimore and was transformed as a
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scholar. by going into the neighbored in baltimore i was told to never go to. the first interview i can remember that changed the game for me was with a young man named juvon. i had 32 pages of questions memorized. we don't use paper and pen because it makes you feel like you at a doctor's office or survey. and it may be hard to believe this but i wasn't very good. with but i was the best person on the team for talking to young men. says a lot more about the team than anything else. i wade through a couple active drug deals to go back into the kitchen with him to sit down and try to talk to him. we wanted to understand the impact of neighborhoods in
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family and cools and growing up in poverty and went in with all these questions. in the first few minutes, you know, he is very polite. he is saying yes, ma'am and no, ma'am but it is not gelling. it is not working. i had no choice but to go off script and i said what kind of music do you like and he said i like heavy metal music and i said i liked heavy metal growing up. white kids in the south looked to heavy metal instead of doing bad things. it just made it seem like it. he said i like greek mythology and he said physic and i am all like isaac newton and he is like physic isn't nothing but math with a little science and then we got to the questions about poverty and schools being in
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disarray and the challenge of growing up in a high-rise in downtown that was torn down eventually. at the end of the interview he said, you know, you are pretty cool for a white girl. and if we had gone to high school we might have been friend. and i thought wow, that went well. we had fun. i would never -- it would take seven years to understand these passion projects that juvon was talking about would be so important. it would take years to figure that out. i just thought the interview went well and i was on the way to being sociology's next martha stuart. it was becoming clear that instead of inner city poverty reducing in the wake of the
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voting rights act and fair housing right inner city poverty increased and became more concentrated. the work on the truly disadvanta disadvantaged made it clear. racial segregation, what we thought it had gone away, had gotten worse and become enormous to the rise of family and children. no longer was this more of a failure than in high-rise p projects in our inner cities. in the early 1990s the federal government did things to the accounts of journalist of children being hurt. the federal government decided to tear down the largest high-rises in our american cities. those deems toxic to the family and children trapped inside. the second thing is an ex
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experiment that would give families a chance to leave high-rises and move to lower r poverty neighborhoods. this is where our research program was born. trying to understand how the children who came from the communities would change if they had a chance to move. i will say it isn't just a family a child is born into but the neighborhood he or she grows up in that shapes her fate. we have over 30 years of evidence pointing to this clear compelling fact and we know enough to act on this. neighborhood poverty is a liability and diminishes the chances of our most vulnerable children especially children of color. what we saw in baltimore is
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enormous gains in educational attainment and other behaviors as a result of children having left the weprojects through the programs we study. the 150 young men and women we followed whose parents signed up for who left the projects these children grew up in households whereome a third had a primary caregiver with a high school diploma or ged. over 70% of these young people would go on to finish high school in this next generation. 13% grew up with a caregiver who tried trade school or college and 80% of the them went on because of housing policy that allowed their kids to live part of their childhoods in neighborhoods that were safer,
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more role models for what was possible in life. parents also enjoyed mental health benefits on par with best practices and anti depression medication therapies from moving out of a dangerous neighborhood. housing and health policy. they were the kinds of parents they felt like they had always wanted to be but couldn't be. this is one big lesson we learned. intergenerational disadvantage is not inevitable and we can change it with social policy if we invest. we know this now. the second thing goes back to the passion project that i first observed in that kitchen in east baltimore. the single biggest predictor of young people being on track by the end of our study, in school, working or both, which was most kids as i said, but what explained between 80% on track and the 20% who didn't get there
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was something called the identity project. finding a passion. something to be about. a creative outlet. a hobby. a job. activities you did with your friends around making music or japanese animation, greek mythology, raising stray puppies in a kitchen cabinet. it came in a million different colors. we saw this incredible resilience coming in a number of forms. some were kids who used it to escape rather than if engage. we sat down with vicky and in 15 minutes she couldn't take it anymore. do you want to see my birds? she had been raising pigeons and that is when she went when she meaded to get away from the 13 or more people kirk circulating the house which helped when vicky was prone to bouts of anger. we saw a more supportive
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institution for young men like jobs or the police explorer. we met a number of men and they were saying as you can see i am a working man because they had a badge from john hopkins or a scrub from a certified nursing job like gary had. it was a point of pride, a point of social inclusion, and a point that distinguished them from being the likely suspect when they were stopped by the police. in addition to as martin said a reason to think bigger about what comes next. it is not just about cleaning it dining room at burger king. it is about something bigger than that. these identity projects sparked sh grit we have heard so much about the last five or ten years. the grit that distinguishes the kids. that grit doesn't come out of nowhere. it needs to be sparked.
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we saw this with tony who took an internship and ended up at the university of maryland at the pharmacy school delivering specimens and mail to doctors. he had being around those kinds of people is what sparked my interest to become a pharmacist. he would finish a couple courses, take the lis of the fridge and tape it become up and keep going. that is grit. we saw this in the experiences that kids said i am about something. i am not about the street. i am not about these friends but these mentors and family members. young people ages 15-24 who are in favor of younger child policy, 0-5 preschool and
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reading programs, these young adults are enormous adults with enormous potential especially in cities like baltimore. what we have seen is an entrenchment that provides the raw material. this support has been proved away in favor of accountability in schools but also the sense that these young adults are threats not assets. because we have never experienced such levels of racialal and economic segregation in history we are virtual stranges. we hold a bridge between the other america where these kids are working so hard to get ahead and struggle and the america in the wealthy super zips who are isolated.
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this isolation allows us to be vulnerable to the poor images like in april of the few kids throwing bricks after the death of freddie gray. if anything we found these kids are the exception not the norm. fewer than 1-5 in our city every turned to the streets but you would never know that watching the news. we think this kind of isolation demenish support for public policy like those that would be invested in youth centers and sports and music education and so on. two big take away. housing policy is game changer and youth investment is a game changer even in unlikely laces. >> it is hard to leave that story and move on to the story of "$2.00 a day". we think poverty is about
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laziness or lack of mainstream norms or values. the profound thing about what this experiment did that our kids and parents participated in was simply moved the same family to a different place. it wasn't even the best place. they were not moving to sell air park but their lives were powerfully transformed. you know? so it speaks to the power of place as stefanie said and the power of investing in young people. it is really a very hopeful story. it is hard to change people's character but it is not so hard to change the places in which we allow children to grow up. so, "$2 a day" has its origins
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in baltimore also. the book came about by accident. all books have their origin story, all studies have their origin story. i was accally -- actually in baltimore teaching in harvard at the time to meet these kids and interview and hang out with them. my family moved to baltimore for the summer and you know, we were in the homes of these young people and their parents and one day, my assignment was to knock on the door of this young women who we had been following her family over the years and had not seen her in a long time. we knew she had a new baby. he went to the homes on madison avenue, kind of tucked in the shadow of the prison there, and we knocked on the door and ashley came to the door and, you know, if you do this for a while you can tell when something is
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wrong. ashley is not making eye contact. she is unkempt and passing her child from shoulder to shoulder. the baby is crying and she is trying to comfort the child but neglecting to do the critical thing all parents know to do is that is put the hand here as you move the child. this wasn't happening. we followed ashley up the stairs and you get into the apartment and there is virtually nothing there. there is a trashed couch, a single mattress on the floor with a torn, fitted bugs bunny sheet, there is a table but with only three legs so it is useless and shoved up against the wall and a single chair.
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so ashley sits on the chair and i sit on the floor and just by coincidence my seat gives me the perfect view of the kitchen cupboards. in this particular apartment, there are no longer any doors on the cabinets and i can see they are empty. so i began talking with ashley about, you know, the transition to adulthood, the themes that stefanie outlined but i soon, you know, something else, some other set of questions was popping up in my mind, i am thinking wait a minute, there is no food here. i don't see any baby formula. so back at the very beginning of my career in the early 1990s my graduate advisor convinced me to spend my 20s running around the country interviewing poor single
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mothers about their budget and half of these mothers were on the old welfare program called afdc. i did that for years various parts of the country and i wrote a book about how you could not survive on welfare in any of those places i had been but you could not survive on low wage work either. if you spend six years doing something it is hard to stop doing it. you know, i began to realize there was no source of cash income coming into the house.
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it is called tanf -- temporary assistan assistance. so, you never know when you have going to have food. this was a moment of epiphany. i thought could it be in the world's most advanced capitalist society that this is how people are living. without cash. could it be that a new poverty
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has risen, a poverty so deep, they could not think to look for it. i did say to ashley, you know, at the end of the interview we paid her. we gave her $50 and i was really worried about her and the baby and i said can i come back tomorrow i have a few more questions and i was going to bring her and the baby things and she said sure. so you can imagine my shock when the next day, the research team arrives and you know there is a knock on the door and there is ashley. she is obviously gone and gotten
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a home perm. and quite literally either she depos deposited the baby with her mother and she has a spring in her step as she announces she forgot we were coming but she is off to look for a job. so i too have a pretty skeptical nature and i am thinking $50? could it be such little cash is really the difference between ashley day one and ashley day two? could it be in the world's most advanced capitalist nation there is something vital about cash for social mobility?
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for hope? so i won't tell you the rest of the story of $2.00 a day but it weaves together the numbers from our best fashional surveys with stories we then gather following families for many months and years across chicago, cleveland, appellation mountains and the mississippi delta. we find the dramatic lives and the number of families living on less than $2 per day per person in cash income. .... dramatic rise and it keeps increasing every year, okay, because our safety net in the aftermath of welfare reform has all but crumbled, right?
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we have fewer, well, i won't get into that. it's really a story about people -- how people live and try to survive apart from a safety net and the incredible costs that are borne by families who have to survive with no source of cash income. you know, probably, i will just end with this. the most profound story, the most profound impact that this project out on me was, i went repeatedly to the mississippi delta during this period to this tiny little town. i can't tell you the name of the town because then you could identify the characters in the book. but the tiny little town near clarksville mississippi and i met a young girl there named tabitha. and tabitha had lived most of her life, most of her life under the two dollars a day threshold.
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her mother had to sell half the food stamps at 50 cents on the dollar just to pay the utility bills. so the receipt in the winter. it gets very cold in northern mississippi. that winter it that some as low as nine degrees. although bit of her condition. and summers and would often top 110 degrees. so tabitha and his siblings just, the hungry skits you've ever seen. they were just so hungry. and after i'd gotten to know tabitha, we were sitting out in front of the old woolworth's in clarksdale which is a coffee shop, and this is where the freedom riders had come from a very historic location. she wanted to tell me something. she wanted to tell me a story about being hungry. she related this story, being 15 and being inbox on facebook by her teacher.
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her gym teacher said i've been watching you since you were young. waiting for you to mature. he then asked her to come to his house after school and promised her food if she would have sex with him. so this is how vulnerable our children are without a safety net. winter it is very cold in northern mississippi. but in the summer but they were the hungriest kid to have never seen. they were so hungry. after i had gotten to know tabitha of bieber sitting in front of the old woolworth misses were their freedom writers had come is a very historical location in she wanted to tell me a story about being hungry and it is a story about being 15 and being accosted by her gym teacher. he said i have been watching you said she were yong. waiting for you to richer. -- to mature in the master dakota his house after school in promise to food if she would have sex with him. so this is how vulnerable our children are. she teaches and in the liaison with legend teacher to stuff her backpack with food finally she tells another teacher and and it he a miraculous story whooe normally gets her out of the situation but out-of-town into a boarding school in memphis where she is the first person to graduate from high school and go to college. but after she relates the
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story she paused i said what does it feel like to be that concrete? she said it feels like you want to be dead. because it is peaceful to be dead. at the end of the book neveru real terrific chapter about what we could do about this their strategies from the local community to local and state government and the federal government to the non-profit sector but i would urge you not only to read the book but also to find someone like tabitha and form a relationship with
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them because it is the tidet between us to turn this around. [applause] >> both of your book seem to discuss the way federal policy as it relates tod housing or benefits has a profound impact. can you talk about why some of these families are not receiving those benefits?ving to be sure that people are receiving what they need for an? >> i will talk about to policies when is the housing choice voucher that i mentioned earlier, only house is one out of four who need it. it is like winning the lottery.
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most that receive the voucher are funneled back into moderate or high poverty neighborhoods. but the neighborhoods are vital source of development so we can certainly do better than we do with the policy. this is not a new policy. with inclusion in rezoning to give affordable housinghave they go to better schools because they are at the same bus stop as they're middle income peers. so we have a housingng affordability crisis then where people live. we go that their violence
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diminishes the cognitive capacity of children but also reduces the chance of high-school graduation andus precipitously. and our infrastructure in is fragile subject to local decisions someone important thing to do is to bent vigilant and whether a have housing policies so there ists a lot to be looking '04r their bet we have very precious policy tool. the other policy is around higher education and for-profit schools the most common pathway is for a
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for-profit training school a fou only 17 percent went to a four year college many went to community college before profit school isis particularly important and activity around monitoringbe these schools we want to be watching because there is pullback and why do we care about that? those young people involved in the is that i describe as optimistic is supposed to work and supposed to go to school are so eager to launch they cannot imagine four years. to much happens in four
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years.n the tht the for-profit schoolsls people the working in dentist office i can do that. and those that have a net price that is three or four or five times higher than university of maryland.dents the cost about $7,600 per year any of those could cross between 15th $25,000 per year. do the math. you could cover three years at the university of maryland at the for-profit trade schools even with the short duration programs they don't know of lobotomy meansoplw
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they quit the nate trying again to pay pay tuition again and the credits don't transfer. we' it is a lever to pay attention to so the last thing they want to do is we on the corner they are vulnerable that neutralizes the potential in many ways. but very expensive baird to policy areas and the higher education peace and is the new conversation. so with basic survival and stabilization and to be predatory at worst insect
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that -- an important things to pay attention to. so as an incredibly important story it is also the nature of work after welfare reform we saw unprecedented number of single mothers in the labor market and they begin to redefine themselves as workers so by the time we started the study we racetrack by a but how the people of our study these extremely poor people identify workers and had history and if you look at the statistics 90 percent ofhe
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poor children live in a household with an adult who has been in the former -- formal labor market in pervades in very profound ways of probably always has but with single mothers resaw i historically is. but the work is fracturing. especially for the unskilled workers. but very few will a employee you full-time to get a job at $15 an hour of my local grocers store then tried to take a second job to schedule around that will reduce your hours down '05.rise so zero hour on call
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contract he were simply send home or told not to come in at all or your hours are reduced to zero months of the italian but these are the jobs parents are taken trying to raise parents. sometimes work doesn't work and they need a safety net. so to attend to the fact the changes of the labor market even when they get the memo
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simic concerning the higher education peace with the for-profit schools had u.s. them why they are not providing those types of education for those types of occupations? >> thanks for giving me a chance to talk about my next betty. i just sat down a couple weeks ago with the president from baltimore state community college. to talk about this fabled
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have problems they want to solve. ended is a big information problem and then they in role and in fact, this is the light at the end of the tunnel providing in's for rick -- inspiration for the future and how to know before you enroll in health to better understand the decision making process. you can learn welding they
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are called noncredit programs think they mightd want to change the name. so do people go to the college there so i encourage by the fact there's interest to figure how to do this better even from saying the of full-time course work there is a lot of strategies because of baltimore state community college of young man says eeoc people on yachts but they spend more on advertising and so we start these conversations
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and thanks for bringing that up because it is also economically vital because it'll swirl over and over again. >> i worked at kinder-care which is a for-profit chain of daycare is. book the way they treated their employees one adult for every six children once i got at six children they would send the other staff member home so they are not guaranteed 40 hours a week. and then getting $7 an hour as a college graduate there raised me at $8 an hour then they will back down a $7 anf hour because they cannot
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keep that ratio to what the parents repaying so it was a catch-22. i would volunteer to go home because i did not need the money but there were high-school graduatesrking fo supporting single mothers in was not fair but it was the nature of the economics involved. >> is interesting a very compelling story.hi is the typical story that we see so then what happens the instability of the workplace is housing and stabilitymilies then means these families and to these conditions and makes them hard to be reliable and employees even in a bad job so over time this wears on individuals
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that affects their health and concentration it evenst affects their ability to engage in long-term planningnni. when you spend all of your mental energy to survive you cannot have that cognitivee bandwidth to engage in long-term planning and the redo in between these bouts it is truly hard wrenching. one of the survival strategies that we documented every one invar study headed did it on the inside of their elbow from frequent plasma donation.so tha so is what they had to generate berger you cannot pay for socks and underwear
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with food stamps, medicaid cannot pay utilities. so watching jessica accosted to trudge down there hill a half-hour walk to literal way -- literally give away her life blood for a few dollars twice a week that gets you ended turns out plasma sales have grown dramatically in the united states is just between 2004 and 2014 when from 5 million up of 32 million. america provides 60 percent of the plasma for the world we are known as the opec of plasma.us all the factors lead to
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hypothesize for the first time in american history where you end up swerving between the strategy's better so consuming that you can no longer experience mobility. >> and then when you get down to that ratio with to year-old if one has to go tog, the bathroom year to take all six of them inside and then they are constantly prodded training it was just poor management without reality of the situation. >> a catch-22. >> i was thinking when i was
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16 i was married i completed high-school working to jobs. did not pay much 11 graduate and it always drew pictures. eventually my husband at the time it to me.star so i started running and i did art i went to prince george's i won the 1800 and 1500-meter races and the art show and i just kept going and eventually i competed at dartmouth and mitt yale and then that's just took it all away.sibility
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so responsibility you have to work hard.. and labatt note is that i've told the american flag out there and people ask me why? because they're willing to fight and die for our freedoms. that is all i have to say. responsibility is what isti important.ds the future and the kids is what is important to take care of themselves and work hard. >> thank you so much for that.. >> we have one more question han >> i hope i am not off topic but is anybody working on addressing changing the work
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environment and where they go with it? >> that is automation. i was at facebook last week talking with industry experts.e so we need to rethink what it means to is the american eats those. to be a citizen in the united states there is a much work to be done we have to much ration the streets we don't have high lead
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qualified child-care centers the parks need better monetary and we need more park rangers. there is so much work to be done in society nonpublic libraries are not open enough hours so that is one of the big challenges we will face how will we rethink citizenship that extends beyond work one to envelop community engagement so maybe our communities in 50 years will be much richer because we will redefine working in citizenship in ways to bring it together.
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[applause] [inaudible conversations] we will mw one mw one wife
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one walks [inaudible conversations] >> you have been listening to an author discussion on income inequality. this is live coverage on booktv of the 15th annual annapolis book festival. in about ten minutes the next all the panel will begin. the topic is criminal justice and we will be back live with that in just a few minutes.
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>> some of the current best-selling nonfiction books according to the "washington post."
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>> the question was getting back to the topic are hospitals killing us. i mean, quite frankly i'll just say i think that's ridiculous. i mean, i work every day with people that gives their all to provide the very best care they get, the best healthcare system in the world when you say either mistakes made in any health care organization or any system? of course there are. doesn't need to be a commitment to constant improvement, which is to go back and get a root cause analysis of what the
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mistakes are and see to it that they are not duplicated? but there's just no part of me at all based on my experience that would suggest that there is anything widespread like that that is going on that anybody should worry about. >> i disagree. and again just respectfully, i think a case of a hospitals are killing people. we saw it in los angeles earlier this year. their work and dos could be scopes into patient and let every system directory and a transfer to other patients many of them died. so there were actual deaths in hospitals because the scope was designed improperly, wasn't clean properly and there was activex i think the notion and i think i hope what the session will get to is that we in medicine are not perfect. we in medicine have to get a lot better. when we start to look at the

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