tv Amie Parnes and Jonathan Allen Discuss Shattered CSPAN June 2, 2017 12:18am-1:13am EDT
campaign trail i thought this is a person who is unique, horrible amazing and terrible characteristics were put on her for me to appreciate her on appreciate or whatever the verb is. i've been spending the last ten or 12 years without knowing it prepare you for donald trump to happen. >> madison contributor to "rolling stone" magazine. he's the author of several books -- a story of bankers, politicians and the most audacious power grab of american history. his most recent book, inside clown president.
dispatches from the clown circus. during our life conversation will take your calls, tweets and facebook questions on his literary career. watch in-depth live from noon until 3:00 p.m. eastern on sunday. [inaudible] >> good evening. welcome to barnes & noble upper west side.d noble tonight i have the pleasure ofni introducing jonathan and amy. jonathan has covered national politics for political bloomberg and box. he writes a weekly political a call for [roll call]. amy is a senior white house correspondent for the hill newspaper in washington. she covered hillary clinton during the campaign and willri cover the trump administration. they have written a claim to
biography. tonight they bring us their new book, shattered.d. inside the doomed campaign. jonathan and amy have reconstructed the on seized opportunities, the well-intentioned misfires and hidden thorn that turned a winnable contest into a devastating loss. new york times writes, although the clinton campaign was widely covered and many autopsies have been conducted in the last several months, the blowpipe flow details have been shattered and the observations made byat campaign and democratic party insiders are nothing less than devastating. not just for supporters but everyone who cares about theas article the consequences of you election. please join me in welcoming jonathan and amy. [applause]
>> good evening thank you for coming. there is my family waving over there. they must have been drinking already. a they are laughing like they were. what will do is read a little of one of the early chapters of the book, chapter seven.ap then we'll talk about what the process was and then take questions from anybody who has a question. >> are going to read a little part of chapter 72 centers around iowa. it is called, i was certain we were going to lose. bill clinton was pissed off. he hollered at john podesta loud enough to be heard through the
walls of the little room he lay claim to on the tenth floor of the historic savory hotel in downtown kathy griffith, iowa. it was the abundance. they are getting it wrong again. hillary was leaving but it's going to be tight. omg he said on cnn. it does closer than that. but assessment was parallels to histories 2008 loss to barack obama. it slips for comparison. after all that have been a three-way race and she was still likely to come out the winner of snow. déjà vu was a hard storyline tog resist. the outcome tonight ensures thi race is going to go on for months and months on the democratic side.
the perception on that have bees that hillary was such a prohibitive front runner heading into the democratic nominationin that she should have cleaned up easily. they had a much different perspective. iowa had never been clinton country. hillary had increased her share of the return from under 30% in 2008 to 50% give or take a little in 2016. plus unlike obama bernie was tailor-made for iowa. the state overwhelmingly white and working-class cities. even if bernie managed to get a victory that was hillary showing strength not weakness. why couldn't they see the difference. on one level was another of bill's routine fits of television personality.
it was another sign of his inability to attempt on his emotions at pivotal moments of his wife's political career. at the start of the day he went for walk with his aides to review some stress. at one point he played all hell, the combination of card games and bs with them. he was a protective husband it'i of concern democrat. >> when bill had spent himself podesta walked into an adjoining space there amid hillary's anxiety revealed consultant he found the man he was looking to. met paul. balding, in his mid- 40s he left his job says communication director for secretary, tom bill
sect to run the iowa operation.. he had been with her for stops through the better part of the year. having served on the aid in iowa, paul knew the statesal electric as well as anyone. podesta beckoned him with a quick not. you go in there and deal with him. paul gathered himself and walked into find the former presidentmt sitting in a chair. it was wearing a suit and parent leather gloves. his arms were crossed. even if it hadn't been audible through the walls of thehe boutique it would been clear he was in a fall mood. his eyes were fixed on paul. if there is a rude time to know my stuff, this is it bill fired questions at him. what is outstanding in polk
county, what about johnson county in cedar rapids? paul walked into the state were caucus results had not been reported county by county. slowly his anger subsided. even if his anxiety didn't. hillary had gotten out a to lead to where she thought should be on caucus night.on sanders was slowly closing in on her.repeat after paul briefed bill, the two men repeated their conversation in the room where the rest of hillary's team was assessing the situation. billboard down on paul, one source in the room noted a shift in bill's personality. usually when you're with him he's a storyteller. on this night was just an information gathered. he wanted to know what the staff didn't know and why they didn't know it. it's much harder to know who'scs winning a caucus state because the results are measured but reported as a number of state delegate equivalents based on a portion of the votes that they get it caucus locations.
numbers can come in a small fractions.pr reports that were not often meaningful updates but remained of feet if not rosie about her chances appointed out. he concluded was which sites remained unreported. if they are in the corner of des moines hillary was screw. outside the city should win. john walks into the state like the roads around his alabama home looked at the same numbers and got a bad feeling. he back channeled while paul was reporting to bill. this is not getting better he said this is going to keep going down. he could overtake us. before we go further we areay happy to have c-span here. we love c-span. like local television for us in
washington. we want to thank barnes & noble for hosting us. we found out as we're walking in that this book showed up as number one barnes & noble website today. across the country. for happy to be here. we like to think our tenet crown publishing in our editor.lp mak along with rachel the many other people who help make the book possible. we would be remiss in not mentioning them. they stand along the wall ensures on the responsible for a lot of what is in the book. what might be interesting this we talked a little bit with each other for a few minutes and then take some questions. did you want to kick it off amye >> this is fun because even though john and i have worked together for two books and five
years, i think we still don't really, i have an idea of john's re favorite moments in the inner workings but i kind of don't two. so will kick it off like this and then let you chime in let's talk about your favorite moment of the book. >> an interesting thing on election night we were expecting hillary clinton would be the next president of the united states. unlike us i assume most of you n are not well into writing a book about the election. one of the things we discussed in the immediate aftermath i think people were trying to get adjusted to the surprise of the election in the transition, for us we had to make an assessment of what we still had to go after that was from the free election
time and what were the things were getting need to focus in on at the end of the campaign in a different way. we had reporting from before thf election but the last month or two we hadn't had a chance to talk to folks of the campaign. they shut down around theeno election. so we're going have to do newwe reporting for the last month or two and then go back and get things. one decision we made early so we thought it be a tremendous failure on our part if we did not get the tick-tock ofof elect election night of what was going on behind the scenes in the clinton campaign. my favorite part of the book and what i feel most invested in the effort we went to talk to people about what was going on.
we have a 3 - for location tick-tock of the hotel were hillary and her top aides were in a sweet, boiler room and manhattan were heard data analytic folks and pollsters and people who are crunching numbers when talking to people in the states.un the brooklyn headquarters peopl were there as well in the javits center were her victory party or playing victory party was. whata they spent time trying to piece together what happened trying to get the time element. there are many things in the book that have not appeared anywhere else. we were the first to report in late november because we're afraid somebody would report earlier that president obamaa hr urged hillary to concede when she wasn't ready to.
there is more of that story of election night was going on, what the feelings were with the emotion and debates were among her staff and family. that's the part i'm most proud of that we got this reporting that no one else did about this really incredibly shocking moment not only for the country but obviously the clinton people in the country as well. what's your favorite part? >> will that obviously because it took a lot of work. >> every authors favorite part is the byline, so this is realla the second favorite part. >> i think everybody wanted to know what was going on in that room. i would have to agree with you.g
we also wanted to know the reall story. they kept trying to portray a joyful campaign. but we kept seeing signs that it wasn't a joyful campaign. john and i made it a mission to get the real story from people. initially people were like it's great going well.ission slowly we're here in the reals story. interviewing one source because this is a story about those in the brooklyn headquarters and the source told us at the tail end of the interview there is one moment right after michigan and she was really pissed off but i can't tell you more. you'll have to talk to otherhe people who were in the room that. i'm so angry and i'm like tellth us more about what happened and he said no talk to some other people in the room.
i got him to tell us who is in the room and he gave us these names and we tried to make it a mission in every interview after that to find out what went down in that moment. finally we circled back. >> nine minutes later. separately we could have had children in that time. i love you honey. finally, this one source said, we want to know what happened and we have bits and pieces of what happened. this is after the election. it's like pre-inauguration but maybe after christmas. >> finally a source tells us what happened and basically resulted in us finding out she was really frustrated by what
happened in michigan in the primary. she was angry at her aides and say that are messages that resonated. these are the moments that makeg the book what it is. a real book about what happenedo told through the people not throughout siders, told through those in the campaign. that moment shines in this book. that's what we aim to do. >> it's your turn, truth or dare. >> i want to know way think ther hardest part of reporting out this book was. >> i think getting people in clinton's orbit is impossible. if i were to chalk up what might proudest accomplishments as a reporter breaking into the circle getting people to tell up
stuff. especially in this campaign of a group that was not leaking were talking a lot afraid of the repercussions and having leaks come back on them. something that we write about that hillary clinton was obsessed with not having leaks. she believed the leaks from her campaign had hurt her in 2008 and rather than accepting that grievances were being aired she looked at the leaks as something that is plaguing her campaign and one of the reasons she lost. this time around these people thought their be working in the administration and in the white house. there's a lot of incentive note to bring problems air problems externally or internally. the hardest part was getting people to talk.
it was unlocking person by person in detail and going backi to the same people and matching was a month and months apart. it was the remainder. the whole process was a reminder of the thing that really porters know their heart switches if you want to get something good you have to work at it. i'm proud that we're able to bring it to light so many things that people didn't know. you can agree with conclusions and look at things in the books and say i don't think the analysis of that was right. but at the end of the day there is attendant of new reporting in this. it was hard work and my family sacrificed for it and so didyoum yours. i'm proud of that. i want to know from you what your biggest fear is now that it
is out. because, we have been sitting on the finish product for a fewca weeks waiting for it to comeout. out. just read you into the experience of an author think we can say this. we heard there is likely to be a review on friday when it came out before we expected it to. for weeks to sit around with the product that nobody has read. you don't know if anybody's going to like it or if it isun going to sell. it was hard to write whether those things go well or poorly. but now that it is out and people get to look at this finish product what is your fear. >> so many fears, but i want people to understand we have gotten feedback on twitter ande other social media that we aret
biased reporters. we went into this, we shoot from the hip. we wrote what some people thought was a largely sympathetic book the first time around.what we this one is basically what we saw and heard from everyone inon the campaign. my big fear is that this will be misinterpreted. as we explained in the introduction we went about about reporting this we thought obviously shoes going to win. our reporting change. well, it didn't change the direction didn't even change we had seen signs of problems all throughout the campaign. what happened was she lost, we had to quickly come to interview and form conclusions of what wht happened.
and do that right after the election in january. that was a quick turnaround.uicr i want people to understand the process without judging how we did this and whether or not we're taking sides. and who we voted for. as a disclaimer i don't vote because i feel like my reporting is my public service. i don't take sides. i want people to judge this fairly and read it before they judge it. >> you are getting to this too, before the election happened we had picked up on a lot of problems in the campaign. and some of the misery in the campaign and hillary clinton feeling like she didn't have a handle for the electric. her basically saying to people very close i don't understand what's happening with the country right now. i don't get it.
we obviously saw that is a problem in the primary and general population. certainly she would like to have gotten a bigger share of the s popular vote and in the right state. there's something that bernie sanders and donald trump that they were tapping into that she had a hard time understanding. was her first strong belief in systems and working inside the system to make change rather than breaking down the system to make change. we saw this going on for months and months. her inability to touch what was going on in the country. the dysfunction on the campaign. it was weird because we saw the polls and all the polling says she's going to win but with the pad. i hope i'm not talking of school here at one point the editor
said this book sounds like she's going to lose. i'm having trouble understandina because it looks like she's going to win and you guys think she's gonna win. but this book feels like she's gonna lose. were like yeah, that's a's a problem. we'll have to figure that out. r but we said were reporters and this is what's going on. were struggling with that and then on election day she lost in we had seen all of these signs obviously was close enough the election could've gone either way. any number of things could have tipped it one way or the other. but we had seen the signs and we trust our god and doing the reporting period is the reason
we are able to produce this quickly after the election. we did not have to pull up roots and reformulate assumptions because we laid out with reporting was. >> one more questions.more quick >> what is your favorite quote from the book? >> that is rough. favorite quote from the book like somebody else said or something that we wrote that is so awesome. >> the most powerful quote. >> i'm sorry not only do i apologize for taking all this time, but the quote is mr. president, i'm sorry. >> i would have to agree i cane. give you another one like abbott
and costello are dumb and dumber appear. >> will open it to questions. i have a q&a microphone here. raise your hand will come to. >> i'd like to know if you have any theories as to why former vice president biden didn't runi secondly how much influence to feel president obama had as far as who could challenge hillary clinton, if that candidate would've had a fair chance. lastly what you think president clinton didn't pardon hillary clinton i would've that made a difference? >> all take the first question. so by then, let's go there first.
if you talk to sources and we did about why he didn't run, it was bad timing for him.ision he needed to make a decision fairly quickly. his son had died tragically. he wanted to make a decision over the summer, the clock wasmn ticking. his donors kept calling and wondering what was taking so long. he was feeling the weight of that moment and finally he fall crept in and he realized he needed to make a decision. meanwhile secretary clinton was boxing him in and doing thingss that do not allow him to to what he needed to do. she taken many of the donors. time had run out. he was unhappy about it and we report that in the book. he confided to advisors and
donors that she was quote plain ugly. >> that's a favorite quote.of m. >> that is one of mine. >> he was unhappy. they have a cordial relationship but he was really angry at that moment for doing what she did and keeping him out especially when he needed time to grieve. and now he's not ruling it out.. if you hear him in interviews is leaving that door open. t i think he wants to run again i think he wanted to run them but the timing was bad and the actual decision-making was not in his favor. >> in terms of the pardon. terms of president obama he wanted to remain neutral but everybody knew that he preferred secretary clinton which prevented democratic candidates from getting in or other
candidates from thinking of getting in. why would you run against the sitting presidents preferred candidate who has superdelegates lined up. when people talk about herll skills as a candidate, once go was clearing the field. should get bernie sanders not trumpet there are other democrats who might have run did not. the democratic benches then right now. as far as the pardon goes, nomo reason to pardon her. james comey said he would not recommend a prosecution. he said a lot of other things. but he said he would not recommend it prosecution.tempt i donald trump will not attempt to imprison his successor matter how much someone dislikes what he does. i don't think where that point right now or close to it.
had he done so, it would've been a stain on both the president and clinton. >> what about the decision of mrs. clinton and her advisers to the leave the personal e-mail. any consideration to the fact that there are be potential backlash to being a cover-up of something? >> case people didn't hear why she would delete the personalil, e-mails, those deemed personal from her private server obviously there's a backlash and people saying she was hiding something. the personal e-mail along to her if they are in fact a there were
some top aides and her lawyers determine was working it was personal. having looked at her work e-mail and seen the information classified that was on the private server seems clear that he did not sit around send this could be a problem, let's delete it. if so we would've seen that classified information. they may have made bed decision or judgment and i think it was a poor decision to set up theoo private server. in one motivated by the desire to not have her files out there under the freedom of information request. that worked out very well fores her as you know. in terms of personal nature the doesn't belong to her. there shouldn't be a problem
with the science are making the right decision about what his personal motives work. >> given what you know now through your reporting, if you had to pick one would you say the clinton campaign lost the trump campaign one? >> both. it is >> i think it's complicated. we've been getting that question a lot. as john and i report in this book and we do so conclusively it wasn't just russia, or call me, it was a combination of factors. the same for everyone here who thinks that russia and comey was the definitive factor, not saying it wasn't. it was a contributor for sureth but there were other factors including the fact that she didn't have a message from the beginning of her campaign.speech
during her speech she had more than a dozen advisors working with her to write this thing. none of them really understood the center of gravity of this message. they didn't understand what was going. she brought in advisors from president obama's chief speechwriter and he threw his hands up before the process was over and said i can't to this. the speech is going nowhere. message was a huge problem. there's infighting at the top levels of the campaign. her two top advisers, john podesta and robbie did not care for each other so much. we detail this in the book. there's one passage we haveey aa where they are at a senior retreat for senior members of the campaign and are basicallyth
telling each other how they feel and using words like passive-aggressive. hillary clinton stopped talking to some of her top advisers, robbie during the primary.these these are problems swept under the rug and not fully address. she wanted people to think it was a drama free campaign based on the headlines that came out on 2008 that there is infighting.aps. they did a good job keeping it under wraps. there is an image and likability problem. people didn't trust her. these are all factors. we talked people know we talked to someone tonight who said i supported her but unwillingly. o that's book for a lot of people. i think a lot of people acknowledge that.k a lo >> i have a competitor for one
of the best quotes. one of her top aides said i would have had a reason for running i would not have run. the argument was even her aides did not know what the rationale was. they're unable to look at what she was saying and say here's her vision for the country rather than her vision forpowe power.she had she's been running for president for ten years, at least. an honest assessment is that it was easy to see what donald trump's message was. whether you like it or not whether he's being honest at the moment or not. he had a nationalistic message. an anti-immigrant message, but there were basically a few things you could put together and say this is what he wants to do with his power. with her there are so many
things that some of the people said if you're for everything or not for anything. that's harder message to carry. it was a very focus. >> summa told john and i there is a wall in her oakland headquarters that had posted notes and it said hillary's for in the wall was covered with various ideas. v one of our sources pointed toedo the wall and said, what john said if you're for everything you're not really for anything. >> you talk about brooklyn,,>> u podesta and trump had kellyanne conway come in late.e game and who is making decisions in brooklyn and go to arizona the week before the election? who looked?
who is making decisions for the campaign. >> the first answer to thatakin question is -- this was a problem.ot of a lot of the junior and mid-level staffers run able to get decisions rendered. in terms of if you want to look at what the basic debate was that mattered in terms of the strategy and field operations in the mechanics of campaigning. they believed heavily in the use of campaign data but exclusively. he did not look favorably on those who believed hillary clinton should be out there trying to persuade people who did not agree with her. the dataset it was more expensive and less efficient to
get people disagree with her. it is true. anybody will tell you that is true. typically they did not abandon persuasion efforts entirely. this campaign increase in late abandon persuasion effort as they did so they became more focused on the base and alienated some of the people who might have been persuadable at one point. this was a process from the primary where she was focused on turning out voters to win delegates to win the nomination. to get the nomination you need to with the delicate. her path was to focus on urban areas so she goes to the city and works on turning out black
and hispanic voters but doesn't go to the suburbs are talk in ways that are trying to reach out to the voters. they become alienated. any see that in the rust belt overtime. there's no way to know what would've happened if they did thinks differently. one piece of the book is there's a big battle over the level of data versus coming in and saying these guys are not binary message. m we need to spend more time with them and frame it this way. he would come in and they would say great, but i don't want to send you to a rural area where nobody likes you. want to send you to city we can touch more people. >> he was angry about it and a lot of the former presidents aides were angry about it and a
still are. they said he had a better feel for things than the data and analytics they were reporting back to him. to this day that is something that still angers the people around him. >> both of you referred in passing to james comey. how significant to think it was to the outcome of the election if the letter you sent to call gerst before the election. even though they publicly downplayed it, what was the reaction to that inside the campaign? >> there is a saying in the h campaign, we cannot have nice things. every time something starts to go well another she would drop. felt like there is a millipedes running around dropping shoes.a.
we go through this background of the not want to tell the whole story. i want to get more questions in. basically they're shocked atan what happened were trying to figure out why the fbi director waiting to say he was reopening investigation and was looking at a computer that belong to whom aberdeen. they said there can't be anything on there we don't know about because they got everything.ht >> the press secretary traveling with her that this reporter on the plane was asking about these new revelations was joking. like did you see the new thing from comey? really funny. >> they never saw that coming. >> it's impossible to know exactly, i would point out the
wall director commented unusual things that's euphemism, all of what he was doing relates back to that e-mail server. if there someone here who think that was a good decision on her part in terms of how you should behave as a public official orh politically on your part, please raise your hand. . . and it may be unfair and whatnot put we look at that as part of the major own goal, to borrow a sports phrase, of the e-mail server that came tolight before she announced the campaign. >> a question over here. >> thank you. i'm a journalist with the newspaper from norway. i have -- >> host: go norway. >> i agree. >> i have norwegian relatives.
>> politic are much more interesting here. i have a question about your access to the candidate herself? to what extent did you feel that her staff was being guided in one way or another when it dame came to talking to you? obviously you knew many of these people from before, from your other book, and must have known you were writing this book and had a strategy in place to guide you in the direction they wanted you to go. >> so, that's a very complicated question. we don't talk about our sourcing at all. it's something we did on hrc, and not doing it for shatters. but you can rest assured we have talked to everyone from the highest levels on down. this is a very inside the campaign kind of book. if you want to know what outers are thinking, this is not the book for you. >> i thought you would say we don't talk to the press.
>> the second part of your question is complicated because as john mentioned earlier, there they're a tough nut to crack, clinton world. we did this two times. both times we felt -- correct me if i'm wrong the second time was perhaps harder because she was running a campaign and they were worried what we would put out. we also had day jobs we were doing at the same time, and i wasn't as easy at is might sound. because we did hrc doesn't mean the floodgates suddenly opened. quite the opposite. we had to work really hard. we almost had to kind of reintroduce yourselves to clinton world in some sense itch used to joke with john, they act like they don't know us and we have been working with these people now for years. >> one nice thing about the leaked e-mails from the staffers
we were able to see somebody being told not to talk to us because they didn't -- because presumably -- there wasn't a wholly reason, just like you don't have to talk to them. >> people who had spoken to us before. >> were given red-lights, don't don't talk to them which is essentially you are not allowed to talk to them. there's a mix of that in overtime some people talk to us and some people didn't some people asked permission to talk to us and got it and some people didn't ask permission to talk to us and talk to us anyway.e want >> john and i joke about we want to read the next book on someon who is a lot easier in more accessible. [laughter]