tv Democracy CSPAN September 11, 2017 7:00am-8:01am EDT
this is booktv on c-span2, live coverage. [applause] >> dr. rice is going to be interviewed for us by one of the best interviewers i know who has his own show on bloomberg, our national book festival co-chair and very generous supporter, mr. david reubenstein. please welcome both of them. and thanks and enjoy. >> well, thank you very much for coming.
>> thank you very much for having me here and welcome to everybody. thank you for being here. it's a great event. great eventment. >> host: so, hard to believe but you have now been out of government for about nine years, just before we get into your new book on democracy, which i highly recommend, and we'll talk about in a few moments, tell us what you have been doing since you left government other than writing three best-selling book. you're tetching at stanford. >> guest: i've gone back to my real risk had that digression into washington, but i've actually been at stanford sis i was 25. i start thread as an assistant professor and returned to stanford. my appointment is in the business school but i teach both business school students and undergraduates. teach a course in american foreign policy. i've been able to do a little bit of work in the private sector, little consulting, and i'm spending a lot more time
practicing the piano than i did when i was in the government. that's really a great love and i'm trying to improve my golf handicap. that's a lot harder than playing the piano. >> host: speakingspeaking of yof handicap, you're one of the first two women to be elected to the augusta national golf club sunny was stunned. in fact when. >> guest: i was stunned. in fact when a good friend who was a member of augusta who told me i was dumb found. he said you are going to say yessing are right? i said, yes, am but i was completely taken by surprise. >> host: just tell me, what is your handicap? i won't tell anybody. >> guest: it's not really a state secret. so, i am for those who are golfers, there's something called an index and you take that index and you go to different courses and depending on the difficultity of course depending on the difficulty of the course you establish your
handicap. my index is enough in .6, which means on most courses i'm about a third tanner 14 handicap. >> did you ever play with president george w. bush? >> i have played on a number of occasions. he plays golf. yes we played together. >> you did train to be a classical music pianist. the taliban but as as they have been able to carry out bolder attacks closer to the capital, even in the international zone, you have to wonder how well at the send center for which you were such a great leader, david. but at least once a year i play a concert with a professional quartet from boston university, and we do a benefit for a charity that we started called classics for kids.
puts musical instruments in the kid. believe like everybody that we need stem, science and technology and mathematics but i'm a great believe we need the arts. kids need exposure to the arts. >> host: i want to focus on your book, but you were born and grew up in birmingham. >> guest: yes. >> host: a segue degree grate -- segregated south under jim you. how long didded take you to realize you weren't'ing treated the statement sunny grew up in birmingham the most segregatessed big city in the country at the time. a police where the police commissioner, bull connor, was known for his brew brutality towards blacks and didn't take long to know that your parents were a little embarrassed because they couldn't take you to restaurant or a movie theater. they were never people who let
us -- this little community agree up in, which was mostly school teachers mitchell parents were educators. they never let us feel we were victims itch they always said when you consider yourself a victim you have lost control. so don't ever consider yourself a victim. they also said you're going to have to be twice as good. now, they didn't say that as a matter of debate. they said it as a matter of fact because education was supposed to be your armor against prejudice. but i remember the very first time that it -- it really came home to me, went to see santa claus and you take a little kid and a santa claus puts the kid on the knee and says what will you've hear for christmas? this santa claus was taking the little white kids and putting them on his knee and holding the black kidded out their talk to them. my father, who was a former football player, my dad was 6'3", 240, he said to my mother, angelene narks if he does that
to condoleezza i'm going to pull all that stuff off of him and expose him as the cracker that he is, he said. >> host: what happened? >> guest: so, there's this little girl and you're five and it's santa claus daddy. santa claus, daddy. santa claus must have read my father's body language because when it came to me he put me on his knee and he said, little girl, what you like for christmas? that was the first time i thought this is really terrible and over santa claus. >> host: one other thing that might have been unusual you had an unusual first name. where did that name come from? >> guest: condoleezza is my mother's attempt to -- in italian means with sweetness. and her name was angelina, and i have an uncle, alto, an ant,
genoa, but i think that she wanted an italian musical term and the first thought about andante but a that meant walking slowly. allegro went foot. that wasn't good. and she came up with -- >> host: your parents moved out of birmingham, moved to denver. >> guest: yes. >> host: you ultimately went to school at the university of denver. >> guest: yes. >> host: you graduate it identify beta kappa. >> guest: necessary. >> host: then went to notre dame. >> guest: that's right. >> host: but you didn't get involved in football cheering you've were a graduate student. >> guest: i loved football. are you kidding? of course i went to notre dame football gamessed a a graduate student. everybody does. >> host: you went back to the university of denver and got a ph.d. >> guest: yes. >> host: then recruited to stanford. >> guest: that's correct . >> host: you're specialty was soviet affair snooze yes.
>> host: what detroit pick that sunny was a failed music major. started in college at a piano major. i studied piano from the age of three mitchell gram taught people know piano. i went to the as spend music festival school and i met 12-year-olds i thought i would end up as a playing piano bar some place or playing -- i wandered back, no major, and i took a class in international politics and caught by a man named joseph corber, madeline albright's father and i knew i wanted to study things soviet, eastern european, diplomacy, and that kicked me into international politics as a major and ultimately as a degree. >> host: madeline albright told the story that her father once said that his favorite student was you. >> guest: yes. >> host: she was surprised that
you had been his student ship had not known that. >> guest: that's right. >> host: so, you starteddor academic career at stanford and then ultimately you got involved in the george h.w. bush administration in the national security staff. >> guest: yes. it's really important story because there's this notion that we sometimes have issue got on my own. nobody gets there on their own. there's always somebody who is advocating for you, working for you, and for me, brent scowcroft who had been national security adviser to gerald ford, came out to stanford to give a talk and i was the second year professor at stanford and he got to know me and said i want to get to know you better. i like your work. i was getting anyone for work on the soviet military. so he started taking me to conferences like the as -- as spend strategy group and he mentored me into the field. therapies another lesson in
that. we also say you have to have role models and mentors who look like you. it's great if you do but if i'd been waiting for a black female soviet specialist role model i'd still be waiting, and instead my role models and my mentors were white men. they were old white men. those were the people who dominated my field and so i always say to my students now, your mentors just have to be people who believe in you and who see things in you that you don't necessarily see in yourself. >> host: so he helped you get a job on the bush 41 -- >> guest: when george w. bush was elected, he asked front be his national security adviser and brent called me and said, this fellow, this 1988, remember. he said this fellow gorbachev is doing some interesting things in the soviet union if the president's going to need somebody to help him sort it out. want to be the white house soviet specialist? and as a result i got be the white house solvee spiey, at the
end of the the cold war. >> host: do you speech russian? sunny do. >> host: so, after that administration, was over, you went back to stanford. >> guest: i did. >> host: then when george w. bush was running for president, how did you get involved with that? >> guest: i went back to stanford. i was provost., the chief operating officer of the university and a very happy academic but george h.w. bush called me who said my son is governor of texas, thinking about running for president and i'd like you to talk to him about foreign policy. i spent a couple of days with him and after a little while he asked me to organize his foreign policy in the campaign, and that's how i got involved with george w. bush. >> host: so were you surprised he asked you to be in the national security adviser at the beginning of that administration. >> guest: by the time we get to his election, i figured i would probably go into the administration and national security adviser, identity been to the national security council
staff before, seemed natural. >> host: how many women serveds a national security advise before you. >> guest: none. [applause] >> host: okay. so, let's talk about this book. democracy. why did you feel compelled to write a book about democracy? >> guest: i think in many ways i wanted to write this book for a long time because it is in some ways an expression of my own life. i am a firm believer that there is no other system that accords the kind of dignity that human beings crave than to be able to be free from the secret police at night to be able to sigh what you think, worship as you please and for those who govern you to have your consent. when agree up in segregated birmingham where my parent's relatives were half citizens but
still believed in the american democracy dish relate one story in the book, i was with my uncle alto and be picked me up from school and it what election day and i was sixish, and i knew in my own six-year-old way that this man, george wallace, was not good for black people, and so there were a long lines of people going in to vote, and it was segregated. said if all these people vote then that george wallace man said can't win. he said, oh, no, we're a minority so george wallace is going to win anyway. i said to him, so why do they bother? and he said because they know that one day that vote will matter. and i never forgot that. and i thought, as i wrote this become of the extraordinary story of the united states of america, this constitution that
was given to america by its founders, these high-minded words about equality, and yet a country born with the birth defect of slavery, but how this same constitution that had once counted in the compromise, my ancestors were three-fifth's of man and i would take the oath of offers as the 6 of secretary of state, under the portrait of benjamin franklin, sworn be any a jewish woman ruth bader ginsburg, and that for me is the story of democracy. >> host: now, we point out in the book that you are african-american but actually 40% of your blood line is white. >> guest: yes. 40% is european. >> host: and ten per is asia. >> guest: something other, yes. some other. >> host: in birmingham, the
young girls that were killed in the bombing, were they people that you knew? >> guest: absolutely. birmingham black community, professionally the professional class wases small, and denice mcnair. one though four girls killed in the 16th street baptist church becoming in september of of 63 had been any father's kindergarten. i'd gone to considered with her. there's a picture of my fewer give michigan are, her kindergarten diploma. her father was the photographer at everybody's weddings and birthday parties and so, yes, my -- adi me a collin had been in my uncle's home room, and i remember him saying that day, that monday when they went back to school he just looked at her empty chair and just cried. >> host: when that happened, did you family say we should move? >> guest: no. no. i do remember the first time seeing real fear in my parents' eyes about what they could do to
protect me. but, no, we stayed there. birmingham began to change. again, the story of democracy. that same constitution would be used by the naacp and thurgood marshall and others starting back -- i describe it in the book with the marlowe report from 1937, and they would sit there on friday morning and they would decide what cases they would take to try and break down segregation and inequality, and and that would eventually end up in the civil rights act of 1964, the voting rights act of 1965, and the first time that my parents and i could go to a restaurant, two days after the sift rights act passed my father says, let's go out to dinner. we went to a hotel for dinner and the people sort of looking up from their food and then maybe realizing, now it was okay, we had dinner. >> host: so in your book you
point out that we have had a birth defect slavery, but when slavery was ended in 1865, we went to jim crow laws. so how do you as an african-american woman rationalize what our country did after the civil rights amendments occurred in the constitution? we still went for 100 years of discrimination. how do you say that democracy is such a wonderful system and our country is so great when you had to live through that? >> guest: because there is no perfect system that human beings have ever created. ever. and yet because of the institutions at that time we are bequeathed, the constitution, the courts, independent judiciary, slowly but surely the rights of the descendent of lives would be won throughs the very institutions when martin luther king and others took on the struggle, dr. dorothy
height, the only real woman mook the great civil rights leaders, they were asking american e america to be something else. they were saying, america be what you say you arement now, you're in a much stronger position when have on the instituteness place and you can appeal to those institutions. so in any system, the bring offering rights to people is a difficult and sticky and hard process, and our has been extremely hard but i look how far we have come, still with a long wayay to go, and i think we have actually done better than i think of anymore in the world has done it. >> host: so, you're a very accomplished person, very famous do you feel any discrimination anywhere in the world, anything that you do, you're discriminated against. >> guest: i always say if by the time you're a senior professor at stanford or secretary of state, somebody treat iowa bad
badly because of your race, your gender, it's your fault, not thursday. no. i feel very strongly that i am able to achieve what i want to achieve, and i try to tell my students to feel the same way. if you -- goes back to what my parents said. -under you consider yourself a victim, then somebody else has control of your life. now, we all know that there are grave inequalities in our society, and we know that our great nationalness doesn't matter where you came from, matters where you're going. you can come from humble circumstances, you can do great things. it isn't true for all off our people. so, our goal, our job, is a citizens of this democracy, has to be to use these institutions to demand of these institutions that they deliver on that promise, not shun them. because they're still the best option for getting there. >> host: now, did your parents live to see your great success
as a professional? >> guest: i lost my mother very young. my mother was only 61. i was 30 when she died but she did get to see me as a professor at stanford. the christmas before she died, gave her my very first book which was not a "new york times" best seller. it was called the czech army and soviet union mitch desert addition. neither of those countries exist anymore. and so i gave her the book so she saw me become a professor mitchell father knew that i'd become national security adviser and died shortly with left for washington. >> host: you were an only child. >> guest: yes. >> host: so am i. >> guest: that's why i'm a sports fanatic because that was my father's passion and a music fanatic because that was my mother's passion. when you're an only child you have to satisfy both. >> host: let's talk about democracy in the rest of the world. the united states has a democracy, not perfect.
you talk about the soviet union and russia. obviously a subject you know about. you point out that democracy broke out in roche i russia after the bolshevik resolution and after gorbachev lost pair. why did democracy disappear from russia? >> guest: well, one thing i seek to do in the book is dismiss one of the explanations you sometimes get about russia. that the russians don't have the right dna for democracy. i just don't believe that there are any people on the face of the earth who aren't capable of democracy. david, you know that we have used cultural arguments so the germans were once supposed to be too martial. the asia were too confuse shoes. the africans were to tribal but
you have ghana, bat about wanna. latin america is men 0 hornsback and champion african-americans were too child like to care about the vote but we have had black president, black attorneys general, black secretaries of state. so, i just reject this cultural argument. and with the russians you get it all the time. they just like strong men. but really, what the story is, it's the story of the failure of institutions to take hold under enormous pressure. if you think about the collapse of the soviet union and the kind of effort to build capitalism 50 fors of the russian population fell into poverty probably overnight. the country broke apart overnight. and unfortunately, their first
president, yeltsin, who id a mired for a lot of loaned but instead of strengthening the institutions and working through them, he starts to rule by decree help weakens the legislature him weakens the independent judiciary. now, that presidency really strong presidency in russia, under boris yet since -- yeltsin is one thing. but when putin is in position, it is a awer to tarean instinct show. russian failure is a story of the importance of institutionses of can't depend on a single person you. have to depend on the institution. >> host: deep down you don't see putin as jeffersonian democrat. >> guest: i know him well. >> host: does he speak english. >> guest: he was learning english from the time he came into office. his english is i understand passible but i would chit-chat with him in russian. he liked me at the beginning
because i was russianist but i remember once sitting with him toward the owned therefore my time as secretary, and he said, condi, you know, russia has only been great when it's been ruled by great men. like peter the great. and alexander 2en. you want to say vladimir the great but you can't said they because you're secretary of state but he thinks he i reunite thing russian people in greatness and i think that instinct has led him to destroy constrains for portland si, independent judiciary. >> host: the chance of his volunteer terribly stepping down is slim? >> guest: i think so. the thing about regime -- they're vulnerable. and you don't know that they're brittle until something happens. we have to remember that the
only district that putin did not win in the fraudulent election of 2012 was moscow. that tells you something about how he is viewed in the city. >> host: let's talk about another country that joins russia, poland. poll land democracy did break out in poland. what do you think state of democracy is in poland today. >> guest: poland is a store that we should try and emulate. poland is the store of having institutions in place when what call the democratic opening comes. solidarity and nationwide labor union under lech walesa had actually been underground from the decoration of martial law at the beginning of the 1980s. it had been sustained by the vatican and village priests, the afl-cio, the labor union, and reaganry's cia. an interesting troy troika.
when gorbachev comes to power, poland halt that institutional infrastructure in place show to democratic transition was ease glory poland than in almost anymorees now in poland it's still a young democracy. it has for the first time a very strong centralized executive, and you're starting to see a kind of erosion of the independence of the judiciary, the independence of the press, but people are fighting back. civil society is mobilized on social media, against the move of the -- call the law and justice party, the president's party, and the president, ended up having to veto a law he sponsored that would have gone a long way to undoing the independence of the judiciary, so don't count out polish democracy.
>> host: you next write about ukraine. what is the state of democracy which ukraine. >> guest: ukraine is a kind of sad situation because if you are trying build a democracy with a very watchingful exactly assertive and aggressive neighbor in the process of take your territory and making the eastern half of your country unstable, it's kind of hard to build a democracy. but they've made process. the president now has launched an anticorruption campaign. a great check on democracy, challenge, is when you have corruption, and they have made some good moves on corruption. there are some young people there in the legislature that are determined to deliver democracy and it's a vibrant society in its western part. the problem for ukraine is that with the troubles in eastern ukraine -- you don't read much about them in the newspapers these days but people are dying
every day in eastern ukraine as the russian separatists who are supported by the russian armed forces are causing all kinds of problems. so ukrainian democracies on a knife's edge but it's not an authoritarian regime either and that's something to celebrate. >> host: as long as putin is in charge of russia you don't see eastern ukraine all of a sudden going back to ukraine and crimea going back to rain crane crane. >> guest: crimea is going to be very hard. here's one point i want to make. one robe i wanted to write the book also was to talk about the role america can play in supporting democracy. we have a tendency -- i take some responsibility for this -- to associate democracy promotion with what happened in iraq and afghanistan. those were extremely stressful situations where we had a security problem and later on, trade to help build democracy. but most of the time democracy promotion is much simpler and
mump less complex. if you think about the way that we dealt with the baltic states, the 45 years that they were under soviet occupation, when i was a special assistant for soviet affair its had a stamp and it said, the united states does not recognize the corporation of the politic states into the soviet union, whenever you mentioned lithuania latvia or estonia you stamped it with that. we couldn't do anything about the fact that the soviets had enforceable incoverage operated the ball stick states but we stood for the principle. in crimea we have to stand for the principle. even if we can't do anything for it that says annexation of crimea is illegal. >> host: you mentioned iraq and afghanistan and i want to talk about middle east but where were you on 9/11? >> i was the national security adviser on 9/11 and if you were in a position of authority on
9/11 every day after september 1st. was at my disk any youngest assistants came in and said a plane hit the world trade center. thought that's a strange accident. called president president bush who was in florida and i got him on the event and said that's a strange accident. keep me understand. a few minutes later i was having my staff meeting and somebody hand met a note and said a plane -- second plane head the world trade center and we knew it as would terrorize attack so i went in the situation room to try to reach the national security principles. colin powell was in peru. george tenet, the cia director ins in a bunker and we said we can't reach rumsfeld.
>> then i called president bush and i said you can't come book here, the united states is under attack. and the rest of the day was dealing with the reality that americanur that american security would never be the same. >> host: on afghanistan our longest war, 16 years, you see any solutions in the near term? sometime worried about afghanistan. i have always said that what the -- the point we had to get to somehow in afghanistan was that the afghans were able to prevent the taliban from an execs ex-send stall throw it. thought you we have remnants ref
the taliban but as as they have been able to carry out bolder attacks closer to the capital, even in the international zone, you have to wonder how well we're doing in getting to that place of stability and so i think the decision by the president and by secretary mattis to try to really stabilize the military situation is one that i support. but eventually there's going to have to be a political solution in afghanistan and i suspect that is going to have to involve pakistan, which is a really big part of this problem because the pakistani aren't really convinced a stable afghanistan is in their interests. and they've got to be made to help stabilize that territory, and we are talking about democracy. it's very tough. afghanistan was the fifth poorest country in the world during the -- at 9/11. but it is at least the place now where girls go to school, in large numbers.
it is a place now where women are not beaten in a soccer stadium that was given to the taliban by the u.n. it is a place where men are not lashed because they don't wear beards. it's not a place that harbors terrorists, and so i think we have had some achievements in afghanistan but i'm concerned. >> host: dem democracy in iraq. hey with made progress there and what went wrong after the invasion of iraq? didn't go the way you thought it would. >> guest: i talk about the iraqi case because i lay out several different scenarios. what the circumstances are when the democratic opening comes. now, the best place like poland where you have institutions in place or colombia where you have institutions that were weak but were there. the worst situation is when you have a cult of personality
tyrannical leader where everything had been at the service of that leader. that was saddam hussein. and so there were effectively no institutions to think of or we thought underneath him. and so the distance between people's desire now that they overthrown the dictator, and the institutions there to channel all of those passion. there's a great distance and you don't have much time. i relate in book that we made a lot of mistakes. we undervalued the potential for the tribes, the sunni tribes to play an important role. we didn't understand the tribes. when we got back with the surge in 2007 the tribes were a big part of the reason we were able to defeat al qaeda in iraq. think we didn't fully understand the implications of the disbanding of the army which
wasn't supposed to take place and in the fog of war a lot happened. one thing want people to understand about iraq, we did no go to iraq to bring democracy to iraq. that's an urban legend. i was in the meeting. it's not true. we went to iraq because we thought we had a security problem in a saddam hussein who had re built out weapons of mass destruction. would never head said to president of the united states, use american military force to bring democracy to iraq or afghanistan. but once you have overthrown the dictator, you have to have a view about what comes after, and the president and his advisers believed we had to try to give the iraqi people a chance to build their democracy, now, a lot of bloodshed, a lot of lives lost. that will never be able to bring those people back. i will say that as the iraqis now are on the verge of defeating isis. you're beginning to see that the
iraqis do have some democratic institutions. they have a prime minister who is conditionable to them. their people protests and they're not shot in the streets. you don't have mass graves at the time that saddam hussein put people. in iraq's big challenge will be can the country hold kurt with the kurds who for a long time have wanted to been independent people. that's the big challenge for he iraqis but they have institutions that hem them. >> host: the arar spring was supposed to bruise democracy -- produce democracy. talk about syria. what kind of solution -- >> guest: i would rather by iraqi than syrian. this syrians -- bashar al-assad is unfortunately -- going to be lard to get him out of power because the russians, who have people on the ground, want him in power. eventually if he is going to go, it has to be he russians who make the decision he goes. the rest of the middle east, i'm
not ready to give up on the middle east finding its way toward a democratic institution we get very impatient with people when they're trying to find their way to democracy, and we say, either they just don't get it, or look at all those -- the muslim brotherhood and we forget, as we just talked about. our own history of democracyization is a long one and tough one so i would say use the polish example. try to plant some seeds for democracy. there are entrepreneurs who are people on whom you might build further democracy there are civil society groups. women's groups, tunisia is an example of where a national labor union and women's civil society groups have actually managed to bring about something that looks like a nascent dem contract.
>> host: esculpt, after mubarak there is a move toward democracy. >> guest: in egypt, the egyptian military rulers look an awful lot like egyptian rulers have looked for a while. hosni mubarak, sadat. there are civil society ground that we see supporting to try to. he what happens in the middle east is at the moment when you have a chance for a democratic opening, the strongest institutions are often the radical islamists. ...
on the middle east, israel. there's either a one state solution or a two state solution. if you have a one state solution, do you think you can really have democracy? >> i think for israel to remain a democratic jewish state, not to have a democratic policy means they appeared on a believer in a two state solution. [applause] >> let's talk about the gcc state, countries. you don't think i assume democracy will break out their or should. >> now, these are monarchies and they have varying degrees of liberalism for issues like women's right and varying degrees of liberalism towards the marriage of religion and politics. but interesting things are happening there in a place like saudi arabia.
saudi arabia has a sickly a generational shift. a majority of the people studying in university in saudi arabia their great university buy king abdulah are women. there are a lot of interesting things here. can you educate women at this level and still tell them they can't drive? >> will find out. in your book you point out authoritarian governments while not perfectly jeffersonian democracies can have some democratic features and could have good people and you cite for example singapore. what you admire about singapore? >> singapore's first law very small but what i really say is authoritarianism is better they
have two examples, china the largest country in the world and singapore one of the smallest and singapore was fortunate. it had a wide planned leader in the point you. it was at the time a democratic values who were not obvious and he turned out to be a wise and benign leader but the problem with that very is you had better hope the next one is benign and the sun is benign and the son after him is benign because you don't always get lucky. and we have this tendency to full democracy to a high standards than we do authoritarian so there are all kinds of really bad military leaders. the idea that authoritarians are somehow better because they deliver for their people, the chinese have delivered although that particular model is kind of running out of steam now.
singapore delivered but there are so many authoritarians that didn't deliver it that we hold call democracy to a higher standard. >> china you don't expect their jeffersonian democracy will break at any time they are. >> i don't expect a jeffersonian democracy to break up there but say something about china. china also has an interesting test. china's economy grew rapidly and lifted 500 million people out of poverty but they did it with heavy exports being the low-cost labor per day -- a provider and they did it with the command economy a lot of state-owned enterprises. they can't get growth out of that model any longer. now they have a free app markets when you free of market forces there's a kind of mismatch between those market forces and the top-down authoritarian political system so the question is how long is it going to be
before you have a clash? as an example china had 186,000 riots over the last cup love ears. not because somebody was out protesting for democracy but because of party leader and a developer who would seize their land they have no cord to go through so they would go in riot leaders will say we need independent courts so that doesn't happen. how long is a poor and dependent courts become an independent judiciary? now you are starting to get a different institutional landscape in china and i'll tell you one other story. i gave a lecture at their great university. they affectionately call it the death -- stanford but i wanted to get a class so i decided to give the same class i get to stanford students, find your passion do something hard etc.
etc.. the questions blew me away up questions were i'm an engineer right or need to take literature? what he do you do if your parents don't like the major that you have chosen? i thought these are chinese kids they are questioning in this way? how long is it before questioning your parents choice of your major becomes questioning your government? i think there are a lot of choices in china that may lead to liberalization is not democracy. >> you didn't write about in your post but i can't help but ask you in another place i don't expect jeffersonian democracy to break out which is north korea. >> yeah, that's a ways away. if you word rising the presence of dave kerner president of the united states today to what would you tell him to do about north korea? >> this is the most dangerous situation that we face. when i was secretary we tried to negotiate with kim jong-il, kim
jong un's father to denuclearize the country. he made some progress but ultimately they would live up to the agreement and we walked out of the talks. ever since they've been on a course of improving their bottom design, harvesting fuel and increasing their range of their delivery system. will no one can tolerate a somewhat unhinged north korean leader because he is not crazy. he is reckless. this is somebody who reached into malaysia killed his half-brother. i don't think any american president can tolerate that with the capacity to reach the united states. and what the administration is trying to do and i support what they are trying to do is they are -- the only country with
real leverage. we'll they have never been able to be willing to use their leverage fully because they worry that the regime would collapse and they have an unstable long border and they would have what the administration is saying to them is your choice now is either we do something about the north korea problem or you do something about the north korean problem. the military solutions here are not. >> so if a missile came near guam would we still have to wait for the chinese to do something? >> i think at some point the american president and i'm not inside so i don't know what these people told about how long he has but as some point will if you are threatening guam and firing missiles over japan we are getting close to the president having to make a decision. i will note that when kim jong
un said he was going to attack want the chinese must have talked to him because within a few days he said he wouldn't attack him so i include have the chinese's attention and it's a question of what they are willing to do. >> other parts of the word out out -- world i will cover briefly in one of those is africa. there said election going on now. let me ask you about south africa. you met with mandela. why do you think democracy has worked as well after mandela as it was expected? >> mandela was a workable man. i don't think i've ever met anybody who i was more inspired by her found more impressive. president bush asked him why do you run for another term tax he said i wanted my african brothers to know it's okay to step down from office and on the continent that has too many presents this is really an important statement. who it was a single party system
under the african national congress. somehow mandela's great authority was never transferred which could then survive him. and they have had considerable trouble. the institutions are still there it's just that it's hard to really deliver to them. the first presidents matter. united states of america was pretty he did george washington didn't want to be king. i don't know how many of you will know who -- it's a great show but it becomes very clear that we got lucky with a particular combination of founding fathers that we have. >> you write about latin america and utah about columbia hot democracy has made progress there and generally the 60s and 70s military are argon but what happened to venezuela? >> hukill chavez happened to venezuela.
you can get a really bad leader who doesn't get checked by those around him with considerable oil wealth. when i was secretary of state the price of oil was 140 $7 at peril. he typed by elections across latin america and he single-handedly step-by-step destroyed all of the important positions of the opposition. he was succeeded by somebody who chavez was out charmed and chavez will without his street smarts and madero has taken the country down. i hope that this is one where the organization of america needs to be all over maduro to do something. it's that you see a middle income country where people can't find food.
>> we have had an african-american president but we have never had a female president we have never had an african-american female president. >> right. [applause] will. >> will thank you very much but, no. you have to know your dna and i was on the campaign trail with george w. bush. i will never forget. we have got a five campaign events and at the end of the day he was wearing to go and i couldn't wait to get back to the motel. they are people who brought him rent -- energy. i don't so much and i have never liked politics really. who i do love policy. the other thing my calling is what i do. i love being a professor. i love teaching millennials. they are wonderful. they come to me and they say i
want to be a leader and i say that's not a job description and is not a destination. let's talk about what you are going to learn and know. my other favorite line i want my first job to be meaningful. i say your first job is not going to meaningful. it's going to be your first job and what will be meaningful is somebody will pay you to do it for the first time. [applause] >> if you don't want to run for office suppose some president came along and said he did a great job of secretary of state, why don't you do it again? >> i had an amazing time. at a president who told leaders, we grew up together he would say. he started out when he was just leaving texas and he trusted me and i'd mired him. what a i have great admiration
for people in public service. i don't think we admire enough to public service. it's hard work. [applause] i try to tell my students don't be cynical about public service. i served as secretary of state for foreign service in the civil service and people who work in the state department not to mention the more than 30,000 foreigners whose deft or embassies around the world are some of the most dedicated people you'll ever find. i love to paint the nation's diplomatic there was nothing like getting off the plane that said united states of america and thinking what can i do to represent this great country but i'm done. [laughter] >> when he stepped down as secretary of state you handed the reins over to another woman, hillary clinton. what was it like one female
secretary of state handing the reins over to another female. >> you know so madeleine myself and hillary had been 60 years since there had been a white male secretary of state. we were saying you know i don't know there's going to be a little affirmative action here and see what happens. it was great and it's a nice little club, the secretaries of state. george shultz who is 97 years old. [applause] and is one of my great mentors. i will tell you a little story. he had a birthday party purge henry kissinger who turned 94 and the two of them did 20 minutes walk round the world, no notes. i don't know perthshire hoping
there was something in the water at the state department. >> as i remember george shultz said something, to be 94 again. >> from his point of view church house was still a. >> when you look back in your career which was extraordinary but would you say you are most proud of having done? >> with the caveat that history takes a long time to judge i think i'm most grateful that we stood up for their right for people to -- i know there were a lot of criticism and a lot of it is probably justified about freedom agenda and declaring one of america's most important services was to work hard so that no one would live in tyranny. i think america is at its best and its highest calling when it
leads both from power and principle. we stand for the proposition that the right to be enjoyed are indeed universal and if they are universal that there are no people for whom they shouldn't he will secured. i'm very grateful that we were able to do that. i'm grateful that some of my travels was when it was ice about people in a couple of things stick out as an individual. i went to china and a little boy walked up to me and said you are that lady from the united states, argue plex nice said yeah i am and then people asked me what was it like to be a woman representative the united states in the middle east and one story sticks to my mind there. i had a very difficult meeting with shiite clerics who couldn't touch me because i was a woman
outside of the family. at the end of the meeting, a very difficult meeting he said will you do me a favor? it was translated and he said will you do me a favor to ask okay really, but sure. my 13-year-old granddaughter watches you on television and she loves you and she and her mother are coming. would you meet them? this little 13-year-old girl comes in and up t-shirt and she walks up to me and said i want to be a foreign minister to. i thought there was something in that moment. that conservative grandfather beamed when he thought about this little girl. this progress to democracy through justice and equality, it's a long long road. people have traveled that road for a long time.
america has traveled that for a very long time and we are still working at it. the thing i am most grateful for is that even with their own troubles here in the united states we stood for the proposition that every man woman and child to live in freedom. >> do want to have a recommend to everybody here this book which i enjoyed, "democracy." [applause] will i want to thank you for your service to our country for all the years. >> it was an honor. thank you. [applause]
>> i understood that there were many americans who because of the financial crash, there was anger and there was resentment. i knew that, but i believed that it was my responsibility to try to offer answers to it, not to fan it. i think it was a mistake because a lot of people didn't want to hear my plan. they wanted me to share their anger initiative done a better job demonstrating i get it. >> there were some memorable gaffes, to peer >> you can put a hunter and half of tram supporters into what i call the basket of deplorable spirit why do you think the were deplorable had been circulating in your mind? >> trump was behaving in a deplorable manner. i thought a lot of this appeals to voters were deplorable.
i thought his behavior as i saw on the access hollywood tape was deplorable and there were a large number of people who didn't care. it did not matter to them. he turned out to be a very effect dave reality tv star. >> when you said basket of deplorable is, you energized. >> they were already energized. >> you offended some people -- >> i don't buy that. i'm sorry i gave them a political gift of any kind. but i don't think that was determine it is. ..
it will include the reading of the names of the victims of the attack. president trump also preparing to preside over his first 9/11 commemoration in office. "the associated press" reporting the president and the first lady will observe a moment of silence at the white house today. this is live coverage on c-span2. [background sounds]