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tv   North Korean Defector Testifies at House Foreign Affairs Committee  CSPAN  November 4, 2017 1:15am-3:36am EDT

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affairs committee. >> we will come to order.
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. >> one of the highest-ranking north korean officials do defect as ar former deputy head ambassador to united kingdom will tell us he wanted his family to be free. is rarely have an opportunity to hear from someone with such a unique insight to the most repressive regime in the world and one that is now threatening us with nuclear weapons. give for speaking before of this committee and also to a knowledge it takes courage for you to do this i met with you in august along with the leader of this committee and mr. schneider the observations and recommendations to the kinnealey today will not only help -- help u.s. policy but it is my hope your message out to
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peacefully denuclearize the korean peninsula will reach the years of every north koreans still suffering underri kim jung un rule. it is crucial we get information to north korean so they can better understand a corruption with the regime. our efforts are already putting pressure on the regime by eight and increasing defection in the country. i fink the teeseventteesevent een regime is tolerable so the house recently passed legislation to reauthorize this important bill
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continues and updates our efforts with more modern technology to help spread outside information into north korea while we should take a diplomatic approach the reality is the regime itself will never be at peace with its people or its neighbors or us information is not the only tool. congress also has done its part to ramp up economic pressure we passed the north korea sanctions bill it increased the tools bypassing a package that targets north curiously labor to have the unanimous adoption of u.s. security council resolution and
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faster haley calls this the strongest sanctions ever imposed in response to a ballistic missile test and in september under her leadership the security council passed another resolution further updating the of pressure so they must we implemented aggressively to have the impact and hurting the regime there and the administration has increased the pace but we need to dramatically increase the number and we need to do that without delay so by using the rules of our disposal we could denuclearize the korean peninsula. yourde insights into the efforts willse
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be invaluable faq fur trading desk here today i have been there once others had been there on a few locations and now will have his opening statement then we will hear fromwe you and after words we will go to the members of the committee to ask questions if you can respond. please make your opening statement we have noticed agreement on this. welcome to the foreign affairs committee mr. thae yong-ho your grape -- grateful for your appearance i have been there twice
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finale with consultants of diplomats touche said the light of the regime on the nuclear development but when i was then p'yongyang i got up early in the morning to walk around resaw lot of people going to work they look well fed and well dressed and everything was fine and i did not know that only those that are functioning well outside of it p'yongyang but they see theant us to rest of the countries of the insight you can provide will help with the public have a unique perspective on this challenge. you come to a sad and urgent time the date is quickly
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approaching when north korea could have the ability to hit the united states with a devastating nuclear payload. and this would include horrific loss ofen lives this is a challenge on the global stage a that narrative to college the way we see it the administration both parties fail to put a lid on the nuclear program and over decades. and the president and the administration is undermining diplomacy in north korea more than ever and the t strategy played out seems of the multilateral diplomatic economic pressure. the show with military force
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with that airspace i am not sure we've seen evidence of that despite the tensions in in washington and p'yongyang. the president's rhetoric a and kim jung un rhetoric has escalated so let me just say what i have said before there is no assistance secretary of state for east asia or pacific gore arms control and international securityst or ambassador to south korea and i worry what may happen if the president travels to asia. there is a lot of work to be done, and glad the committee is still focusing on this issue of on the path for word.. in to take place over the next few weeks in
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conjunction with of president's trip we're fortunate to have you with us today mr. thae yong-ho and i yield back. >> this morning we are pleased to be joined by thae yong-ho former deputy chief of the denver credit for public the people's republic of korea in the united kingdom. as saying an official he provided some unique insight so the statement is part of the record to submit statements or questions with any of extraneous material and if you could summarize your remarks the floor is yours. >> chairman end drinking
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member and the members of the house thank you for with the opportunity to be here today first-ever blake teetoo express my sincere gratitude who kept his promise who gave me this opportunity to testify so as you are all aware live diplomacy in 2016 the story is other different from other defectors may have experienced in the political prisonnt camps.
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as the north korean people why i defected to the free world and why a kim jung un is developing nuclear programs so it north korea not even by ordinary citizensea there the was sent to china for a program and to more than 30 years of my life were privileged the aisle lived and worked and foreign countries such as denmark, china, in the unitedki kingdom.
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it provided me with all types of privileges and economic vintages and i was fortunate enough to live with my wife and two sons they were all dedicated and ironically that in south korea i have no friends or relatives and todayay i testify at united states congress which i was always taught to fight against. the reasons why of the economic benefits i felt i could not let my son's legal life like me. i believe was to give them
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the freedom that was so common to everyone in america. i fear that my sons would have coursed the - - cursed me for taking the back to north korea facebook messaging e-mail and internet news that they would suffer a lot through that north korea system how could the boys with that freedom of ever go g back and go back to life in north korea? i cannot take that liberty from them or the us mail -- occur this miles back to north korea i could
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not force them to pretend to be loyal to kim jung un and the system long live the socialist paradise of dprk like i did all my life. this was psychologically difficult for gore have to pretend to be loyal to the kim jung un regime. even by british friends caught me flatfooted to justify but deep down i note their concerns with things out could kim jung un? why
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could they it appealed for humanitarianni aid? with the clear missile development there is so is the dynamic transfer of power and how that prevails in north korea this was always painful that weep just realize those contradictions of the way the system is built you may think to be a member of that elitein club of north korea but yet the reality for many people is far different all high-ranking leaders are separated in the apartment according to their rank this
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requires more sacrifices with the increasing risk of your life even though you may enjoy a more economic benefits as a result if it is discovered they have cheaper idea is that he or she is subject to prosecution even members of the kim family such was the case with his own local -- half-brother and uncle. much more is going on beneath the surface over the past five years.
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so for example, families of the current to basilar in malaysia were sent to prison camps and bogeyed nos if they are alive or dead. and to that ambassador that was also forced to turn back to p'yongyang and expelled from that foreignry ministry well on the surface it seems to have consolidated power simultaneously there are unexpected changes takingex place with northth korea and with the official policy of thef regime of free markets are flourishing as more and more people get used to the
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market's the socialist economic system becomes increasingly forgotten about the welfare system of north korea has long collapsed and the security forces are dependent on the estate investment for their survival it does not care about state propaganda of the increasingly watching south korea with that domestic system of control of the days go by back in 2010 during the arab spring many said it would be possible to imagine such an event taking place in north korea the changes the be increasingly possible to thinkto about with that
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uprising in north more and more people gradually become with that reality and they will have to change was those consequences of that satisfaction and until now thathe system to that incredible rate to prevent the free -- free flow of information. with a nuclear weapons and icbm and of that north korean system that existence is close to the border of
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air and he can destroy a solid career effectively to drives the american forces out of the peninsula and to threaten the continental united states with nuclear weapons. with the short-range missile capabilities the potential deployment of nuclear icbm that means the threat is coming to south america -- south korea but also america is now pursuing a policy of engagement however it will
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take some time with that current economicf sanctions as we wait to see the outcome with the north korean regime of equalization. and to strengthen the alliance with the unpreparedness with the icbm provocation? to enhance the level of communication to
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korea thee south united states but there that coordination but kim jung un isn't fully aware but because of this understanding with that sanctions regime can be broken apart to access after successfully completing from the of program putting missiles into development. but only with those military options it is necessary to reconsider of all
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nonmilitary options against north korea and that is all that isno left so i think it is necessary to try to convince he willoughby destroyed if continues with this direction we can educate north korea to stand up by disseminating outside information however is united states really doing enough in this regard? spending billions of dollars to cope with the industry threat and to spend each year ended is a tiny
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reflection. to disseminate information is so indeed the berlin wall is easily collapsed to increase these flow of and for rationed reunification could not be achieved to open the border with austria to have an exit route for the eastern people.
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so tens of thousands are leaving without papers into the shadows are being sexually exploited while they continue urging china and russia to support economic sanctions to north korea is to abolish now is time for a the world to stop the human-rights violations. so this concludes my statement.
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>> thank you very much. you made clear in your remarks that more and more people gradually come with the reality of that condition what they are told is a paradise then they find out how people are living in south korea or the rest of the world that the north korean government were to face the consequences that is the powerful impact so what kind of messages to be focused to sending to north korea and should the of message as you said to the
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elites the different soap to the people of north korea both are increasingly satisfied with the regime. >>re only by a we have to find out now after five years in power kim jung un cannot tell the people his date of birth nobody knows who his father is. nobody both bows his
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half-brother. nobody knows he is the third son of kim jong-il now he is brave raj -- brainwashing the operation he is the only he still cannot provide a single photo of his grandfather. why? because he was in a hidden boy by his daughter he was kept secret the and silently but the majority of north korea does not know
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him so to disseminate that information so why even now cannot proof - -nn present a with his grandfather because he did not know of the existence of this board. gooy these people not to that he advice several ladies so we should tell the north korean people that kim jung un and his father and his grandfather are not gods so with the freedom and human rights north korea is
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a country the population of north korea into different glasses of the system that it is so low to tell people it is not a paradise but it is the worst in human history. >> so with the dialogue with beijing what should we be pressing beijing on with respect to north korea? directly should continue to
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support those economic sanctions against north korea. but not to repatriate those defective -- defectors because fed to raise government knows that so with that enforcement of labor so with those detectives in china with that government the chinese government told them to go
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free lead to self correa that could happen with the "maxim" basket - - accidents through their borders with china. >> but it would collapse in a short span of time. >> now we go to the ranking member. >> your comments are very revealing and interestiinteresti ng it is important to give us the inside. when i was there kim chow neil was there -- kim
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jong-il was there as the leaderhe but kim jung un has us similar title every room there were pictures of thewa wall that was very scary is that still the case with kim jung un?. >> of course, he even upbraids the propaganda campaign. >> so in any scenario do you envision that south korea freeze horror dismantle the nuclear weapons program? what would be the best means to persuade north korea to do so?. >>n first kim jung un wonders if he can achieve the goal.
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so america has the nuclear arms stage. they have seen how adn pakistan but clearly we could clarify that is the korea.r north >> with those internal dynamics to increase those external pressures to leave with that period government to change course?. >> with the current economic sanction and then we have to
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wait and see with the current economic sanctions to have those stockpiles. so we have to wait but then north korea stockpiles how long it can sustain. >> so coming to move p'yongyang was the massive bill boards with that
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propaganda but we took a picture of the poster was the north korean soldier would the bayonet with the head of an american soldier we know it was because the helmet said u.s. say it was very frightening and scary because he mentioned it but it talking about the nuclear program sold the one thing i came home they said that saddam hussein didn't have nuclearpo weapons and look how he will no dope and they're
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really showed me the mindset so that is the key to being players fourth trio would run circles around them. and so 12 years ago it is key to the success of the future. >> so yes the kim jung un regime thinks that prosperousin and democratic south korea itself that is why they think and they believe with nuclear weapons
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is the guarantee for their survival. >> have you observed any changes in recent years with the information campaign targeting audiences to be more successful? how do you go about changing that perception to the outside world?. >> when the consular rises for smuggling the authorities tried to prevent that by having public executions and arrests of people who would watch that would never with those
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cultures so the regime learned that enforcement cannot solve a problem. that his wife for the past few years they prevent north korean corporations each sidehe is to open the archives and with those from the former soviet union to find out how they can meet that demand.
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there are a lot of stores that they sell the east germans were even those like a lion king or tom and jerry o. of beauty and the beast for the children. so they know that in order to fill that they should do something so that is why the regime is afraid to disseminate information because if we continue to disseminate and with that tailor-made contents for north korea then i think we could make changes in north
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korea but the contents of south korea of the people they are watching the contents that are produced for the south korean audience they watching for their amusement and entertainment the sofar they do not actually relate to the way of o thinking they cannot critically analyze so that is why we should make that which is tailor-made we should make that simple with the basic concepts of
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freedom and human rights and democracy. >> now mr. smith in new jersey. >> thank you for your courage to be here to provide insight and observation i remember the cold war they said the iron curtain is not soundproof to ratchet up that freedom of broadcast so thank you for that. but first you have made a stunning observation and recommendation to facilitate the passage to south korea that could truly debilitated dictatorship leading to its demise. so my question that i have held several hearings on this it violates that with impunity you rapprochement
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they said they will send them back for the benefit by trafficking those who come back especially the women into sex trafficking or labor trafficking but my hope is that your word as well as our own government will act upon that the cuts as it is very benign with the way to deal escalate into the escalated crisis. second, we underestimate the whole idea of the cold of personality and the emperor and thehe fanaticism of imperial japan based that he was god and there is a gross under appreciation with fat
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willingness to dive because -- with a willingness to die because of they still believee that or to what degree? they have a potent force that they are willing to die. >> first of all, if you've visited the chinese border with north korea the the government has built up the extensive network to catch those defectors along the borders if they are caught bin he or she could immediately be repatriated. so they have built-in more
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river banks to prevent those from the north korea of population. note china says they are concerned of any possible refugee crisis but that is not really the truth because the preparation they have a place to go once they arrived in china they will accommodate all north korean defector so they would cover the cost that is not true becauseou that is which they could w accommodate so we
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should continue to ask the chineseth government. . . a pathrnment to establish for north korean defectors for a temporary stay and continuation of their journey to south korea. i think that is the thing we should do. china is a member of a refugee convention. as a big country, the chinese government has an obligation to observe its international obligation, by lifting north korean defectors to go into china. the personaling, cult, the personal culture in north korea. it is really surprising.
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in north korea, when you reach the age of four or five, from the age of kindergarten, you are brainwashed. every morning, the young children of three or four years in supposed about -- to bow front of the portrait of kim jong-un, kim jong-il, and kim il-sung. they have to stand up and express their thanks before drinking milk. when there are apples, that apples are distributed to the population as a gift of kim jong-un. the kim jong-un regime established a full scale brainwashing system, depicting kim jong-un as a god. we should try to concentrate our efforts to educate the north korean people, that kim jong-un
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is not a god. he is just a normal human being. and his family is not the family of the gods. we should continue to tell the shouldorean people, we see the ugly side of the kim jong-un regime. new jersey is next in the queue. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i am fascinated by your comments. i am a surprise because i have seen the indoctrination process in other countries and how it works. i am concerned with the nuclear program. it seems they have developed this nuclear program very rapidly. aboutu talk a little bit
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who is assisting them? someone it is the rapid must have assisted them. is it china, iran, russia? in your opinion, is anyone involved with their nuclear proliferation? it is common knowledge basic -- therea's knowledge of nuclear weapons, all came from the former soviet union. and 1970's,1960's it was the policy of the former soviet union to control all the nuclear experts and industries of former socialist countries, by inviting and educating all of those nuclear experts in russia. north korea started to send it to young nuclear experts to
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russia's nuclear institute from the late 1950's. so actually, north korea accumulated the vast knowledge of making this nuclear weapon from russia. but of course, at that time, the soviet union government did not north koreanl nuclear experts how to make nuclear weapons. but they educated the north korean nuclear experts in order to expand their nuclear power the wholend control socialist world of nuclear energy. but the north korean regime took advantage of this education system in the 1950's and 1960's. the accumulated the knowledge of how to make it. there the past five years
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is all of a sudden a great acceleration of this process of icbm and nuclear development. how was it possible? we learned that in march of 2013, the kim jong-un regime, adopted a policy of simultaneously developing nuclear weapons and economy, which is called the -- policy. what is the difference between kim jong-un's policy of nuclear development between his father and grandfather? throughout the history of north korea, kim il-sung and kim never stop the developing program. but the main difference between kim jong-un on and kim jong-il is that kim jong-un wants to
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achieve that goal in a very short amount of time. and in a very open way. during the kim jong-il period, they developed a nuclear program under the pretext of the nuclear rising the korean peninsula. when the chinese wanted to force north korea to stop it, they were always justified to the chinese government that, chinese brother, we need this nuclear weapon in order to lend the ears -- land the ears of americans. it is to reach a kind of deal with americans. they did it again and again. now the justification is different. china, wea says to want to achieve this goal openly at any cost. ofondly, from the march 2013, the north korean regime
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decided to invest all available for the and finance completion of nuclear weapons. that is the main difference between the present north korean regime in the previous kim jong-un on --kim jong-un period. chairman royce: we go now to congressman dana rohrabacher of california. thank you mr. chairman and to our witness. i appreciate the insights you are providing us. a couple things you mentioned i would like to get clarification on. do the people of north korea know that kim jong-un was educated in switzerland at a private school? do they know that? did not: the majority know he was educated in switzerland, no.
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don't we haveer: broadcast to north korea? why would the people of north korea not know that what he is doing to them he was a spared, and that he lived a totally different life than what they are expected to live? are broadcast not being aggressive enough? may be the pamphlets or the radios have reached inside north korea in a secret way. effect of that is not very efficient. order to vastly disseminate information to the north korean people, i think we
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should develop a new way to do it. for instance, one thing i have , now we can have a satellite transmission for the north korean people, and we can smuggle in [indiscernible] things that are a similar size to a smartphone. so the north koreans can watch that south korean and american networks, through the transmission from satellite. rep. rohrabacher: that sounds like an effective use of money, as compared to some of the other things we are doing to try to deal with this threat. because of we do not deal with this threat, we are putting not only the people of south korea, the american people, in severe
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jeopardy, in danger. , how is religion treated in north korea? the north korea system is based on contradictions. the north korean constitution allows the freedom of belief. society,rth korean their constitution has not prevailed. chapter of the workers party of korea and the teachings by kim jong-un prevailed over the constitution. if we read the charter of north korea and the teachings of kim clearly it clarifies the ideology. they should be the only idea of north korean society. rep. rohrabacher: do they permit
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people to go to church? mr. thae: there are a few churches, only in pyongyang, just for show. not for the north korean people. do the northher: worshipeople have services in their homes? do they get together and pray? --there a religious movement south korea has a tremendous expansion of faith. is that experienced in north korea? mr. thae: that kind of practice -- if that practice is detected by the regime, it could be the subject of persecution or public execution. i do not think that people would care for that kind of religious practice. whether not quite sure
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there are individuals who do those kinds of practices in secret inside their homes. i have not seen that kind of secret practice of religious belief. rep. rohrabacher: we need to be the champion of these oppressed people around the world. especially when it comes to christians who are oppressed like this, because our own national security will be enhanced by that. doing what is right by religious people being persecuted for their religion could probably help us. thank you very much for sharing your insights with us today. chairman royce: representative bill keating of massachusetts. representative keating: thank you for your desire encouraged to be here. this morning i was at a breakfast of experts discussing north korea's threat to us, as
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well as the rationale for many of their activities. icbm andested their nuclear development was to preserve the regime from international threat. it is therey said, for domestic support as well. you had said there is an escalating dissatisfaction among the people. can you explain their rationale in saying there is a group that caesar -- support of the regime because of the nuclear development? mr. thae: i cannot understand your last question. what was it? rep. keating: that kim jong-un is developing nuclear weapons andicbm's together support stability in his regime in his country, within it. you said it is de-escalating his support. what is the rationale? are there people that see that
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development as stabilizing and give the regime support as a result? mr. thae: the first, kim jong-un is very aware that north korean are in the process of disintegration. that is why he looked for any solution to do it. icbm capability and nuclear weapons can provide him a kind of legitimacy of leadership for the next several decades. rep. keating: to the people inside feel this will help them from an outside threat, as they perceive it? is that correct? mr. thae: both ways. the nuclearthinks weapons can guarantee the ability of his rule. to second thing, in order
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get the legitimacy of long-term leadership, he wants to convince the whole north korean elite and the people, that he is the one who made north korea as a nuclear status. he wants to convince the north korean population that once he acquired these nuclear weapons, he can easily rake the sanctions scheme. rep. keating: thank you, that is the rationale. this is a tough question i will ask you, one we should all be asking. there is a great deal of discussion, even this morning, that there is a likelihood of military intervention preemptively by the u.s. as a defense. here is my question -- what is going to happen if that happens? what happens when the missiles stop? what is the next day going to be like? who is going to be in charge? how will we keep stability? what is china going to do?
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what do we do with the human impact of that? as someone that has been in europe, our partners would be on board. what is your thinking on this important issue? mr. thae: after kim jong-un finishes his completion of he wants toons, open a dialogue with america. he would continue to blackmail america with possible nuclear war with america, and ask america to pool american -- to pull american forces from south korea. >> if i could interrupt a minute. he has a follow-up point, i think, about what would happen next to south korea, if that happens. then we will continue with your question. >> thank you. his strategy is, once
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he has the nuclear weapon and icbm, he wants to make a deal by asking them to scale down military in south korea and pull american forces out of the korean peninsula. if america does not accept his offer, he may continue to blackmail with another icbm or something like that, to compel to affect his demands. he believes if american forces are out from the korean peninsula, the next day, the foreign investment would follow the american forces. and the foreign investment out of south korea, and then the elite and the companies of south korea would follow. create a sortan
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in the southee korean system if he has this nuclear weapon. that is what then north korean vietnam.ike south when the americans pulled their troops from south vietnam in 1974, we should remember, the army of south vietnam was number four in military terms. but when america pulled its forces from south vietnam, later, the foreign investment left. when foreign investments left south vietnam, they left the ruling class. within two years and south vietnam, there was a huge trend of fleeing. years, [indiscernible]
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all of a sudden, the huge military establishment of south vietnam was forced to defend it system. the north korean regime learned through this process. they want to follow the same with south korea. icbm's theywith want to change the current tide of struggle between north korea and south korea. >> thank you, i yield back. chairman royce: mr. michael -- from texas. the think this is one of most complex, challenging foreign-policy issues of our time. whenever a power becomes a nuclear power, you cannot take it away from them. ,e saw that happen in pakistan iran, north korea. this is the result of a policy
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of neglect of prior administrations, both republican and democrat. not dealing with north korea. and now we are in a situation today where i do not see a lot of good options on the table. it is a fact he has this icbm capability, he has militarized nuclear weapons -- warheads. definitive, not be do think he has that capability now, as well? japan the other day, they are terrified, the prospect. i do not know how to get rid of this guy. we talk about regime change and opening channels, letting people defect. we know china is the strongest country to deal with north korea.
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it is in their best interest and in their backyard. yet we are sending satellite photographs after the u.n. sanctions were voted on, defying those sanctions, votes going back and forth between china and north korea. so that has not had a lot of impact. let me commend you for your courage coming here today, in light of the dangers and the obvious risks you are taking. i think you are a courageous individual. deified,are almost this dynasty. how do we change that, first question. if the military option is on the table and secretary mattis has warned against it, if that
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happened, what with the peninsula look like? what would be the aftermath of the military option? think,e: the first, i many people do not understand why the north korean regime believes that nuclear weapons can solve their problems, and why kim jong-un' regimes is so much obsessed with this kind of , which weapons program can do nothing but all those sanctions. from the perspective of the north korean regime and kim regime, they believe this kind of goal can be achieved. review thee, let's u.s. alliance. the military alliance between
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south korea and america, and between china and north korea. the north korean regime learned there are a lot of loopholes in military alliance between south korea and the americans. for instance, in that treaty, there is no clause of involvement in the military alliance with south korea. if a state of war or any war happens on the korean peninsula, both sides would discuss. that is the clause. it is not legally binding. but if you read, north korea with china, there is a compulsory clause. if the war happens on the korean peninsula, then the chinese side will automatically, naturally, be involved in this war. secondly, if we see the
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militarized south korea and america, there is a very loose clause. how this should go on and how this treaty breaks down, if one party of this treaty says then this military alliance would disappear. that is the present reality. the one withok at north korea and china, if one of the parties do not agree to break this treaty, then this treaty would last again and again. we have to cover up those loopholes in military alliances and america. that is why north koreans believe if they have the nuclear make those in can washington think whether america
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perfectingn for south korea, they strongly believe to do that. history.ned from the in january of 1950, the secretary of state controlled between of defense south korea and japan. at this time, america did not as the fearh korea of protection. that prompted the decision of and kiman war by stalin il-sung so the soviet union could succeed in nuclear tests in 1949. in washington they
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thought how to prevent any kind of accidental nuclear war with the soviet union. they decided to drive -- draw a line. unfortunately, they drew the red line on the 38th parallel. between southsea korea and japan. chinese communist party also succeeded in driving american forces out from taiwan in 1979 by completing its icbm program. from this in history, the north communists learn that once they acquired this technology to attack america, if they continue
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to blackmail until america would accept their bill, they can prevail. that is their strong belief. about the thing military, the option. i strongly believe that if there is any preventative strike, the war will be wo by american and south korea. there is no doubt about this. but you have to see the human sacrifice from this military option. now, there are tens of thousands of north korean artillery's and short range missiles, ready to fire it any moment along the line. north korean officers are trained to press the button without further instruction from the general command if something happens on their side.
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if there is any sound of fire or bombs or strike from americans, the military artillery's -- art illeries will fire again south korea. tens of millions of the south korean population are leaving. 80 kilometers away from this military demarcation line. a very short distance of range of fire. but i can calculate, think certain human sacrifice would happen because of this military option. as i have said, there are tremendous changes taking place inside north korea, in spite of this reign of terror. -- reign of terror by the kim jong-un regime. determined to use and
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power, i think one day we can reach the same goal we achieved with the former soviet union and those former european socialist countries. >> great insight. chairman royce: the representative from hawaii. much for yourery courage and openness in being here to share your story and experience not only with us, but everyone watching. the follow-up on your last statement, what you're saying is that if there is even a very limited preemptive military strike from the united states, that this automatic response using the artillery and short range missiles would occur, is that right? mr. thae: yes. rep. gabbard: you spoke earlier about exhausting all diplomatic measures before turning toward military action. you mentioned the need to meet with kim jong-un directly.
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mr. thae: that is right. rep. gabbard: what would need to happen in that conversation to create even just the beginnings of a process that would result ultimately in dismantling and denuclearization of the peninsula? and how would that be different from previous failed efforts in the past? mr. thae: first of all, we should tell kim jong-un that the north korean case is different from india, pakistan, or china. india and pakistan achieved their goal without making any enemies with the big powers like american, china, or russia. theres why in reality, was not any big country who was so serious to stop at the nuclear arming in india or pakistan. but the north korean case is different because north korea
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wants to achieve that goal by blackmailing, by threatening, america's interest and the american content. that is a great difference. we should tell kim jong-un that his goal to achieve the nuclear status cannot be achievable. because as long as america will not accept north korea is a nuclear state forever. andhould tell him directly, that america is ready to use all military options, if kim jong-un continues this process. we should tell kim jong-un that his -- he should give up his idea of icbm's and nuclear development, america is ready to help kim jong-un build his economy and make north korea prosperous. that is the point we should directly delivered to kim jong-un.
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rep. gabbard: it has been spoken how one of the major reasons why andjong-un is holding tightening his grip on nuclear weapons is as a deterrent against any attempts by the u.s. or others to topple him and his regime, thinking this will be the only thing that will protect him. why is it that if the united states sits down directly with kim jong-un, that you think he will react positively to a message of, we will help you, make sure your people and economy prosper? that does not appear to be something he has been concerned about in the past. mr. thae: as i have said, kim jong-un and the north korean regime believes their rival is south korea, is the biggest threat to north korean systems itself. kim jong-un is very aware the north korean population are watching south korean movies and
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dramas. he knows the mind of north korea is changing toward south korea. guarantee permanent to protect his dynasty from that kind of game. he strongly believes nuclear weapons can be used as a very strong defense for his dynasty. i think we should tell kim jong-un it cannot be the correct way for sustainability of his leadership in north korea. rep. gabbard: you talked about a change in the feeling of the north korean people. given the threat upon anyone who expresses even a little dissent or disagreement, do you think kim jong-un is even aware of the
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change in current in the north korean people? mr. thae: yes, he is very aware of that because he is a very good network of reporting. the happenings inside north korea. regime the kim jong-un has taken huge measures to prevent the north korean population watching south korean movies and dramas. but it turned out to be a failure. also, throughout the system of the north korean regime tried to stop the escalation of a free market system, but failed. so now north korea is at the stage of not only accepting this trend of free marketization. well of thise process. chairman royce: we need to go to general scott perry of pennsylvania.
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thank you, we are impressed by your kurds and probe which to have you here today. be -- would effect there be any effect at all on north korea being named a state sponsor of terror? with that have any effect whatsoever -- would that have any effect whatsoever to the regime and their actions? mr. thae: it would be helpful because once they are seen as a sponsor state of terrorism, it can be more easy to drive north korea from financial systems. convince theso other partners of the world to detect or stop all the channels north korea uses these days to fund their nuclear development. rep. perry: seems to me a big part of our strategy should be
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and is, the relationship with china and north korea. but it also seems china is not forthcoming with their agreement. they water down the agreement, do not follow the agreement they have. is china really the linchpin we think it is? is at the center of gravity, can they make a difference? korea's trade is with china. coal alone, $1 billion annually. to itsa would live up agreements, will it have the effect we hoped it would with north korea? can it bring the regime to its knees? mr. thae: first of all, i would that during the trump administration's short span of time, america has made a
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great success in convincing the chinese to take more sanctions against north korea. in the meanwhile, we should continue to ask the chinese to stop and crackdown all those smuggling networks between north korea and china. because if the chinese limitsent officially trade with north korea, it can produce negative effects by more smuggling's between china -- smuggling between china and north korea. on the borderline there are hundreds of private traders and small companies were smuggling, who are involved in these illicit activities with north korea. so far, the chinese government has been reluctant to crack down
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on this smuggling network between china and north korea. i think it is time you should raise the issue of smuggling with the chinese government. and if the chinese government further upgrades the level of sanctions, i think it will create pain on the kim jong-un regime. rep. perry: kennedy used to our advantage regarding information can thenorth korea -- smuggling network be used to our vintage regarding information flow in north korea? you could smuggle in information. but i wonder about the north korean's people ability to access it. is that a possibility? mr. thae: i think the possibility of smuggling is expanded, there can be more opportunity of smuggling dvd's
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into north korea. other end, if smuggling opportunity is expanded, they will be able to import what they want. which theterials north korean regime wants to import our big things like oil, metals, engines for their military. the things we want to disseminate our small things. is anstance, there development of technology. it is getting smaller and smaller. five years ago, if you wanted to we wouldte content, make this size of dvd. now they become
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smaller, around this size. in north korea, young children ardthey call it the nose-c because they can easily put it inside their nose to avoid searching. i have heard about american prisoners from vietnam in the second world war being held in pow camps in north korea. is there any truth of that, to your knowledge? would you have any knowledge of that -- was it ever discussed? mr. thae: to be honest, i have no idea about this. >> thank you, mr. ambassador. chairman royce: we go now to representative norma torres from california. >> thank you for joining us today. trying to comprehend what
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caused you and the defectors to leave during the time you left, versus under the previous supreme leader. can you talk a little bit about that? mr. thae: you mean my case? i would like to tell the members here that i am not the only north korean diplomat who defected. rep. torres: it was a wave? mr. thae: yes, there are more diplomats who defected. they are willing to open their identity or not -- i told you i was fortunate to bring my wife two s weo have very limited time, i apologize.
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ns. >> mr. thae: -- actually, the number of diplomats defecting is more than we estimate. rep. torres: more now, or more under the previous? mr. thae: in the past two or three years. rep. torres: two or three years under -- mr. thae: the kim jong-un regime. rep. torres: why now under this regime and not the previous? what is the difference? what caused you to say, enough is enough? mr. thae: kim jong-un escalated his reign of terror. diplomats lost confidence in the system. is desperatelyun
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accelerating the nuclear process, which is a danger to the existence of north korea. rep. torres: was there something specific to you personally that caused you to say, this is it, it is time for me to leave? mr. thae: there is not that kind of triggering point. as i said, i have watched and followed the growing process of in london-- my sons and i thought it was not the right thing to take them back. is. torres: mr. kim jong-un a young man, he will have a birthday on january 8? that is right, but nobody knows what year. russia and: between china, who was more involved in advising him on issues dealing with the u.s.? mr. thae: i do not think china
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or russia is advising kim jong-un on that matter. he is advised by his close associates. rep. torres: yet china is very dependent on the workers. korea.workers from north mr. thae: yes. rep. torres: how can it be china is not advising him on how to deal with the u.s.? i do not think the chinese have any kind of diplomatic instrument which can change the thought of kim jong-un. that chinamon fact is exercising the double standard, the approach on north korea. on one hand, china is keeping
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its obligation with united nations sanctions. but on the other hand, it is opening the possibilities for north korea to fund its program by importing a lot of north korean laborers to their country. smuggling, private traders, small companies, do you have an idea of who they are and how we can in the u.s. policy, impact that i -- that activity? mr. thae: that is a matter of a chinese decision. we should continue to tell the chinese government that the north korean nuclear threat is not only a threat to america, but it can be a threat to china. we should continue to convince the chinese government to cooperate to stop north korea's nuclearization. convinced, they will take effective measures to stop
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and crackdown on the smuggling network. chairman royce: your time has expired. we have to go to joe wilson of south carolina. representative wilson: thank you, mr. thae, i appreciate your courage. i represent many constituents who served in korea. they have a great affection for korean families. my dad served in the flying tigers in world war ii and as a great affection for the people of india and china. the korean-american population is so important across the u.s. that in my home state of south carolina and -- we have a festival of south korea to celebrate the extraordinary culture of south korea. we also have a presbyterian and a great celebration of how much the people of america appreciate the culture of korea.
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in mr. chairman, i appreciate your leadership promoting freedom for the korean citizens, which is of the utmost importance for the people of south korea and american families, for our security. for this reason i would like to thank the chairman for his attention to a bill that has been proposed by adam schiff of california. it is a bipartisan bill that supports and clarifies and complements the recent prohibition on travel to north korea, reflecting on the murder of otto warmbier. when you agree north korea is a supremely dangerous place? i applaud the state department, donald trump, and nikki haley, for their efforts for the passage of the north korea travel control act. the danger that north korea poses to america and our allies is of bipartisan concern.
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i am grateful that chairman royce and eliot engel have supported passage. ambassador thae, i have recently visited the beautiful country of south korea. what an extraordinary country. relationshipitical we have, we go together. we are possibly the only members of congress it -- who have been does south korea. we saw the destitution of the people in pyongyang. that is in contrast to the extraordinary success of the people of south korea, the republic of south korea and seoul. there haven mind, been measures passed in congress nikkie u.n., led by haley, the former governor of my home state of south korea, that
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affected sectors that used to finance the illicit programs of the north korean regime. are there any other sectors or streams of revenue we could act? i am grateful president trump has begun a process called secondary sanctions. can you suggest to the president any secondary sanctions that should be enforced to help the people of korea? you could target sanction measures [indiscernible] i strongly believe secondary boycott measures should be expanded to target the chinese and russian companies who helped with illicit activity. i want to usee, diplomatic soft power, like a campaign to isolate north korea.
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ironically, so far, only a few countries in the world view -- spurn north korean ambassadors. for example, north korea has conducted six nuclear tests. but except spain, no european country so far has ever expelled or downgraded their relations with north korea. what happened between iran and european countries in the past iranian -- at that time, together with america ,oined to isolate iran expelling ambassadors from tehran. and from all european capitals. so far we have not seen that kind of unified response from
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which wecountries, share common ideas and values. that is why a think american government -- that is why i think the american government should keep up. asking american allies to follow suit to isolate north korea domestically. workers, tensean of thousands, or working in kuwait, the arab emirates. these arab countries are allowing north korean workers working in their countries. an american ally like poland are still aligned north korean -- are still allowing north korean workers. measures can be taken.
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government cannot ask arab allies to do more. chairman royce: if i could interrupt, we have passed sanctions legislation which allows us to deploy sanctions against of those entities, and we should be doing that. that is a good point. mr. brad schneider of thank youd thank you for providing this opportunity. it was an honor to be with the chairman in south korea in august. i thank you for that time. i appreciate you sharing your experiences. it is very important that you are here. one of the things you mentioned is that as the elite in north korea get promoted, it entails increasing risk.
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given that, what would be the impact of providing more opportunities for the elite to defect, and how might the international community create those opportunities? a i think we should have tailor-made -- for north koreans to defect. korea,i defect to south i started -- i studied the system of south korea, what can i do, in my future in south korea? i searched on the internet before my arrival to south korea. of course, the policy of equal
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treatment for north korean defectors in south korea, but as for high delete defectors, i think we should make a if theyade law so that make the exit of north korean elite for defection, i think we should upgrade more the current treatment of the policies of north korea's elite group. a country like north korea can be easily collapsed if the group of elites leaves that system. >> thank you. you also talked about the thumb drives that young people can hide. that is just a mechanism to get more information into the mass population of north korea. others have touched on it a little bit.
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can you expand about some of the most important messages we need to communicate to the people of north korea to try to unravel the brainwashing coming from the kim regime, and expose north koreans to what is the reality in their country, but also the reality in south korea and the rest of the world? >> we can make tailor-made content comparing the reality in north korea and south korea. they share the same language, same culture. we have huge separate families. if we make a good tailor-made content to educate people, use theg like -- we may daily life of north koreans. in north korea, there is no concept of proper payment for the labor they sacrifice. place fora was in several decades without proper payment. when i worked as the deputy
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ministry, myreign monthly salary was 2900 korean won. one kilogram of rice was 4100 won. with one-month salary, i cannot afford to buy one kilo of rice. people just take it as granted because they are used to this kind of stupidity for a long time. nobody thinks it is strange. that is why we should educate north korean people that everyone in north korean system are entitled for proper payment. >> in your experience, is this something that should be done in high production qualities, or is it more important that it is coming from people with familial connections, something that should be done showing everyday life in south korea? >> everyday life in north korea
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i mean. >> but showing north koreans what it is like in south korea, that there is opportunity, that someone gets a fair wage, that there is opportunity to raise your family and give them a better future. >> yes, something like that. yesterday, i told a very interesting story about the cultural concepts in north korea . reaches -- when the girls reach the age of 16 and 17, and if the girls keep that physical beauty, they would be mobilized to be sent to the capital to be employed either in special hospitals or guesthouses for the entertainment of kim family. in north korea, if young girls
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with physical beauty is sent to pyongyang for that purpose, the villagers, the village would regarded as a kind of honor for the family. that prevailed several hundred years ago in lee dynasty of korea. still in north korea, people believe the kim family can exploit sexually their daughters. educate north korean people how stupid they are by sending their beautiful daughters to the capital. >> thank you. >> we now go to brian mast florida. >> thank you, chairman. thank you, sir, for your remarks. you have spoken about the history of nuclear development in north korea.
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abouteve you were talking the overlap between russia and north korea. we are already familiar with the efforts. i want to ask to your knowledge, has there been any effort by china to share either nuclear technology or ballistic missile technology with north korea in modern history? >> first of all, i do not have any clear information on this nuclear cooperation, but it is a ferries,ct that the the trucks which carry the icbm's, are chinese made trucks. this is a very common thing, even though china claims that those trucks were exported to
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north korea for industry, but it is a proven fact that north korea is using those china made trucks for icbm deployment. in the 1960'st and 1970's, the basic technology of north korea were imported from china, and hundreds of chinese technicians helped north korea to build submarines. >> i want to get to submarines in a moment. question, tothat your knowledge, has north korea had a desire to, or engaged in sharing their investments with iran? >> in the past, whenever north korea tests those satellites, iranian scientists were invited to the site.
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it is the common fact that during the war between iraq and iran, north korea supported the iran side by supporting military equipment, and because of that, there was strong cooperation between iran and north korea on all military terms. cooperation,uclear i do not have any clear information of them in that regard. >> north korea is not a member of the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. in your opinion, would they share their advancements in nuclear technology with iran? >> absolutely. north korea is a country who wants to sell anything for hard currency. it has proved on a couple occasions that north korea was engaged in illicit activities
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like counterfeiting currencies, drugs, so why not nuclear technology? >> you did bring up submarines. quite often the emphasis is placed on icbm technology. from your knowledge, has there been an effort to advance capabilities that would allow delivery of a nuclear weapon from a submarine system off the coast of japan, south korea, the united states, or any other area of the coast? it was reported a couple of times, and north korea also claimed that it made dramatic improvements in their submarine delivery, especially in terms of code launching technology. last year, north korea proved a couple of times that it made great advancements. i'm sure that north korea will
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continue on that process. >> one final question. the best way i could put it would be safety. historically speaking, in the world of nuclear weapons, between the united states and russia, there have been known protocols. at one point it was mutually assured destruction. then there was the lander of escalation. what i would like to know is, has north korea also made an effort to secure any of the safety protocols that have existed with the united states of america or russia to ensure there is not an accidental launch of a weapon, or that somebody that is not part of the regime could get in control of a nuclear football and make a launch? has there been any safety
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efforts? >> last year, north korea announced that the north korean army strategic military unit, which means the icbm missile unit, directly belongs to kim himself. this means that kim jong-un wants to direct instructions from his command directly to the general. seen any kind or of safety regulations, how to control, or manage north korea's nuclear arsenal. i haven't heard any of that kind of regulations. >> we need to go to colonel ted lieu of california. >> thank you for your courage and for testifying before the united states congress. thank you, chairman royce, for holding this important hearing.
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in your testimony, you were one of the elites. how many people are we talking about in that category? >> the total elites? >> the total elites in north korea. it is really difficult to give exact percentage of the elite group, but according to the recent survey, north korean , while there are three classes, the main ruling class is called core class, and next to-- class, and according the academic search by calculating the population of pyongyang, the experts are
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arguing maybe 25% of the north korean population belong to core class. usually elites are chosen only from core class. think maybesion, i less than 10,000. >> and you clearly saw the truth, which is why you defected. is there a sense that most elites also see the truth, or do you think most of them are brainwashed? >> north korea is a very strange and unique system. rank, thatin high does not mean you have more access to information. korea, theh institution which controls every centralf life is
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committee of workers party of korea. there are 300 or 400 people who control north korea. who these people have access to outside information like me, no, because there are only 10,000 people -- there are only 1000 diplomats working in foreign ministry who have that kind of access to world news, for instance, world newspapers, or these foreign magazines. but the people who are working much higher in rank do not have any ability to access this kind of outside information. even though you are in higher rank, you do not have -- >> if we could deliver information to the elites, do you think that would be enough,
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or do you think we have to do what you said? should makee peoplent content for the and class of north korea. solidarity sense of between the core class. hatreds a kind of hidden between core class and -- class. war, theirkorean ancestors fought each other. delete,ruling class, or are afraid of any kind of political revenge if there is any change of the system, or if there is any sudden contingency. we should continue to deliver a
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kind of message that if they cooperate with the rest of the population to change the north korean regime, their future would be guaranteed. america together with south korea can control and prevent any political revenge from those victims. we should try to make a kind of andmmodation of feelings, ,he hatred between elite class that is the best way to make a change. >> thank you. i yield back. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. ambassador, good seeing you again. as you can see, this is on tv.
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it is being broadcast here. if the north koreans are able to hack in, we can assume that if kim jong-un wanted to watch, they can watch us now. i'm going to direct this more to them. it was brought up that he's getting his icbms and his military weapons to protect his regime. i would think that if any other country wanted to topple him, they would have done it by now. i think what we need to focus on is bringing him to the table, and have a diplomatic end to this nonsense. you, withoutsk having north korea on the state-sponsored terrorism list, do you think that makes the sanctions less effective versus putting north korea back on the state-sponsored terrorism list?
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>> i think we should avail every possible nonmilitary option to stop north korea's continuation -- back on put north korea the state-sponsored terrorism list, do you think that would have more effect by other countries that you visited? >> absolutely. >> what kind of relationship does north korea have on a diplomatic level with other countries? when you are in north korea, and you are in the countries you are respectit a feeling of you got from another country, or a feeling of tolerance? >> as a diplomat working in united kingdom, i was always the policy ofuse critical engagement.
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i always tried my best to convince the british government to let them use their role to prevent any possible war scenario on korean peninsula. exercise of the british military representative or personnel invited to take part in that exercise, it is my job to visit the british foreign office and the defense ministry to convince them not to go to joint military exercise. >> so you focused more on military. --experience has been with most embassies, they focus on trade, economies, cultural exchanges. you just focused on militaries? instance, there is almost
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no trade relations between north korea and britain. there is no point for me to build that kind of thing. exchanges, wel tried to invite as many north korean civil servants to take part in english training course, and i thought it would be helpful for north korean elite to look around in u.k. >> but you didn't see the embassy sending people to north korea? other embassies? >> some countries. >> i want to do a brief review of history. this is directed to the people of north korea that may be listening. we had a war with germany and japan. we had a war with south korea and vietnam. a lot of people died. there is a common denominator.
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that common denominator is war. but the other common denominator is trade. we fought these wars, and at the end, we're all trading partners. south korea has a market economy. countryis a communist that engaged in market economy. japan are huge trading partners. what i would encourage the kim regime is, don't go to war. now andst start trading come to the negotiating table, and that is what i would encourage them to do. they docit activities in their embassies, wildlife tracking, endangered species, bring that to an end, and let's work on the trade. thank you for your time. >> we go now to joaquin castro of texas. >> thank you for your testimony
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and for your courage to defect. i want to make a quick statement for the historical record. some have suggested perhaps we should have taken military action before. is, postem with that 9/11, we were knee-deep in two wars. the idea that the united states was going to jump into another -- seems veryats strange and unrealistic. reportsbeen conflicting about north korea's nuclear capabilities. what is your understanding of their ability to deliver a nuclear weapon to japan or south korea, or beyond? started froma has late 1950's. that means that north korea spends several decades on completing this nuclear program,
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so i think north korea has reached a certain level of nuclear development, and they are at the steps before final completion. >> do you think they can deliver a nuclear weapon to south korea? >> i'm not sure whether they will definitely deliver or not, but if we see the current north korean brainwashing education system, they are educating the military officers that they should blindly follow what kim jong-un -- >> are you certain that they can't deliver a nuclear weapon to south korea? jong-unnk if kim believes his life is threatened, he can do anything as long as he has something. >> ok. what is your understanding of
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north korea's abilities within cyberspace, their ability to attack on a cyber level the way the russians have interfered with our elections, and the way north korea reportedly interfered with sony's systems? what is your assessment? >> i do not have the exact information about the cyber attacking. what i have seen during my life in north korea, north korea has a very good educational system to educate those cyber professionals. >> people are being trained? >> from middle school ages. >> ok. in addition to china, which other world economies, which other nations are propping up the north korean economy? based on what you saw, what other countries are helping prop
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up this economy? >> first china, and russia is the second, and southeast asian countries like vietnam, malaysia, thailand, the geographically nearest countries , are the third trading partners of north korea. >> what kind of goods or things are being treated? what kind of activity? >> north korea are exploding raw -- exporting raw materials like coal, iron, these things to buyingand north korea is technologies and modern goods from china. i think north korea's foreign trade is mostly dependent on china. >> it has been many decades since north and south korea have basically been two separate,
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distinct nations. supposing the north korean government and society did crumble, do you believe north korea and south korea could realistically unify? >> i think so. we share same language and same blood and same culture. been dividedth has only for 70 years. what i learned after my arrival to south korea, i learned we have so many things in common. be a very easy process to accommodate north and koreasorea if the two are reunified. >> thank you. that this debate over whether we should have taken military action in north korea earlier perhaps a decade ago, really underlines the mistake of
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the iraq war. we went in believing that saddam hussein was developing nuclear capabilities that north korea was actually developing, but we took no action. aboutt making a judgment whether we should have taken military action, i think the mistake in iraq is made worse by that realization. thank you for your testimony. >> thank you. we go now to new york. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, ambassador. years, we heard of the hunger and famine impacting the north korean people. what is the status, and is there any famine? often, when people are facing those adverse conditions, there is an instinct to rebel.
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what is the status of the food situation in north korea? >> before 1990's, north korea maintained very effective ration system. everyone in north korea enjoyed certain rations of food every month. these days, the ration system is only available for the civil ministries or armies of security forces. malnutrition in comparerea, now if we the general height of north korean young children and south korean young children, there is centimeters gap between south korean and north korean young
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generation. because of this long decade of physical tallthe of north koreans are changing. that thisis is proof famine is still severely going on in north korea. >> you mentioned north korea's forced labor, and china benefits. which are the other countries that benefit from forced labor? product they are producing that we can identify and potentially boycott? >> the north korean workers are the main source of labor in russia for their timber industry. work inans wanted to that cold weather in siberia. north korean workers actually ,elp russian timber industry
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and for the construction industry, the main source of labor this from north korea. countries like kuwait or arab thantes, there are more 50,000 north korean workers working in those countries, especially in construction building. if you see the countries in like uganda, there are many north korean medical teams conditionsvery bad to earn thepitals hard currency in those countries. >> beyond the chinese and russian sphere of influence, are there any relationships between the north korean government and countries in the western
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hemisphere? >> of course. north korea has diplomatic relations with almost all european countries except france and -- [indiscernible] and north korea has 11 embassies in europe. this proves that north korea still has a network of diplomatic service in european countries. >> what about in latin america and the caribbean? >> to my knowledge, there are embassies in five countries like mexico, and so, on. mentioned that there are thousands of defectors in china and south korea, and the need to protect them is paramount. if they are sent back to north korea, they will be tortured or
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submitted to forced labor. what kind of pressure do you think should be exerted against china to protect this from happening, but also to protect defectors? america, i traveled to i haven't to visit one school in seoul where they kept children born by this exploitation in china. the children could not speak korean language. they only speak chinese. when the poor north korean at south korea, all the children they had with their chinese husbands, the
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status of the children are very --r >> i'm going to have to interrupt at this point. we have very little time left. i'm going to ask mr. garrett, and if mr. davis would join me at lunch, a lunch we are supposed to be doing right now, with our witness -- we are far past out of time. we've been asked several times to wrap this up. we've had one person waiting for a while who has a problem with his knee, mr. gerry connolly from virginia. would you like to ask your questions? >> thank you, mr. chairman. you indicated that kim jong-un are going toe
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pursue nuclear icbms at all cost because they see it as the key to the regime. is there anything the western alliance, the united states working with japan and korea and maybe even china -- do we possess something he wants so much that he would stop the nuclear development and possibly roll it back, the way we did with iran? >> i don't think so. >> so we are past the point of no return? >> we should consider -- continue the current momentum of sanctions and campaign of diplomatic isolation. i think that is the only way to force north korea to give up its nuclear ambitions. >> sanctions don't have the appreciable effect because of the black market economy both through russia and china that you were describing, as well as other relationships north korea
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has been able to establish, is that your view? >> only sanctions is not effective to stop the process, but if we build pressure on china to stop smuggling, and also if we continue and expand our activity of disseminating information to educate north korean people, i'm sure that north korean people one day would stand up to change the cause. >> do you believe kim jong-un and his regime understand that the use of nuclear weapons would almost certainly bring retaliation in kind, destroying the regime he seeks to perpetuate? >> i think kim jong-un is aware of that, but he believes that if he has these nuclear weapons, he can successfully compel
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washington to pull its troops out from korean peninsula. >> thank you. i thank the chairman for his graciousness. thank you for your courage and for being here today. >> thank you, mr. connolly. i want to thank you and also thank the national endowment for democracy which has supported your trip. as the ranking member mentioned, we have had many hearings with experts on north korea. no one has brought the insight you have brought today. your testimony will be of great and lasting value. one area i want to underscore is the abysmal human rights situation. we know how badly north koreans are abused. hundreds of thousands are in gulags. the kim regime's aggression against us reflects their aggression against north koreans. i think one message we have
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heard again and again is the importance of communicating with the north korean people, letting them know the true nature of the brutal and corrupt regime there, and i think the korean people deserve so much better than the government they have. we need to do a much better job with our international broadcasting efforts and other efforts. i think our national security depends on it. we appreciate your courage. you have presented outstanding testimony that will help all korean people in the cause of peace. you should be proud. the hearing stands adjourned. >> thank you, mr. chairman. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2017] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit]
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