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tv   Jere Van Dyk The Trade  CSPAN  December 17, 2017 9:15am-10:31am EST

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so parents are going to have to sort of tap into their homeowners policies to hire lawyers and payout settlements. >> i i get the sense most parens don't know that? >> i i don't think that's widely known, definitely not. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> good evening everyone and welcome to two nights event. we are delighted to have joining us this evening jere van dyk,
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investigative journalist focusing on terrorism in the middle east region come at a moderator carla thorson, senior vice president of programs and world affairs. we are recording tonight program so please take a moment to silence your cell phones. i'm a program officer at world affairs. if you enjoy two nights discussion and your interest in learning more about the organization i will be around after the program so please introduce yourselves. i would now like to turn over to our moderator, carla thorson. >> so good evening everyone and thank you for joining us. it's my great pleasure to introduce our guest this evening, jere van dyk, a journalist, author, and cbs news consultant who covers afghanistan and pakistan. he has authored a book called captive, my time as a prisoner of the taliban, and another work in afghanistan. he's also written for such publications as the "new york
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times," "newsweek" and national geographic. and in 1981 1981 while workinga correspondent for the "new york times," he lived with the mujahedin as they battled the soviet army. from 2006-2000 and he served as a senior fellow for the carnegie garo counsel for ethics and international affairs. while senior fellow in 2008 he went to afghanistan and pakistan to research the taliban for a book, it you substantively capd by the taliban and imprisoned for 45 days. becoming the second american journalist to be captured. his most recent book, "the trade: my journey into the labyrinth of political kidnapping" discusses the political and economic motives of kidnapping and is currently an adjunct senior fellow at the council of foreign relations, and he's joining us here tonight to talk about the trade and the geopolitics of kidnapping and the way which terrorist groups
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have been using kidnapping. so jere, , welcome and thank you so much for joining us. >> thank thank you, carla. and i think to start we probably need to understand a bit about what made you want to write the trade. what caused you to go back and really think hard about the way which kidnapping is being used? >> i think the best way for me to answer that is, even recall just before stephens was murdered by isis he wrote a letter when using a cell with jim foley and peter and others, to his parents. and in that letter he said everyone has two lives. the second one begins when you realize you only have one. and i was, as some adobe, it's the greeks say, twice stated. i survived my kidnapping. and i felt and feel that i have
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an obligation as one who survived to keep alive the names of those who were murdered, to speak on behalf of those who did survive and you don't want to talk about it, to tell the world what is that what i consider a new and extremely potent new form of political warfare. as carla said, i was the next person kidnapped after, as a second person kidnapping the first person was daniel pearl. and daniel pearl as you recall "wall street journal" reporter in karachi pakistan was held for about ten days to two weeks, we don't know exactly when, but he was slaughtered al-qaeda. and the ransom demand was that the u.s. provide the pakistan the f-16s that we have
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provided to them, , that we had salted them but failed to deliver as well as to provide better treatment for men in guantánamo which is a rather strange demand for a terrorist group. when you think about it. that was the beginning of political terrorism after 9/11. and i was the next person as carla said kidnapped after him. i'll do this will quickly, but my book "captive" came out in 2010, a few things happen. one, i was giving a talk in new york before journalists aside in greenwich village, and at the end i was signing books and a man came up to me with his then girlfriend, , now wife, and he said you said tonight, and this is what an mi-6 intelligent agent said to me, we did everything possible to prevent a second daniel pearl. and then he said to me, this
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young man, resp, do you think you would have survived if you were jewish? no one had ever ask me anything like that. i began to think. and sometimes, a few months before then, daniel pearls father had written an article in the "wall street journal" in which he said i feel that my son has died in vain. and i took a while but then i wrote them a letter and i said no. i'm alive because of your son. and they invited me out to los angeles to see them, and i went out to see them. and in some way it was easier to cross the mountains in pakistan then go see them. we had lunch together and we spent two days together, and i said that i thought of daniel pearl when they took the knife out in my proposed execution,
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two of them. but the big differences, and it's all the difference in the world and i don't have a right to talk about it, is in my case they put it back. but when the camera was rolling and a look at the man and i said okay, let's do it, it's you and me. i thought of daniel pearl and nicholas berg who was the next person kidnapped after daniel pearl turkey was kidnapped in baghdad in 2004 and beheaded. and so i begin a trip because of this man in 2010 who came up to me after my book came out, to go back and find out, this was the first reason, there are others, why daniel pearl was really kidnapped and look deeply into his story which i didn't feel was really ever brought out, and which i found a lot about and write about in the book. so there were multiple reasons why i went back. and there's one final reason to
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tell you this, is that in 2012, i was, and as carla asked me this, i was working with cbs. i was prevented from going east of turkey, people are inherently afraid that you are going to get into trouble again. and that you were seen as a bit, as one man said to me, toxic. cbs would use less and less, and afraid of what i might say or that i might embarrass people. another fellow named john select use kidnapped. his driver was killed in use kidnapped in pakistan by secular group, a different ethnic group and the taliban. he said to me, we are like mentoring candidates, people think they've been brainwashed. so you live without. more than anything else you are a victim. you are always a victim. when i went to see the pearls a newspaper reporter suddenly so that's what they're going to say
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in your obituary, right? you're a victim. what is it like living your life like you always a victim? that was another reason. and the final reason is that in 2012 i came home at night from work and it was a letter from the department of justice, federal bureau of investigation, what in the world, what is this about? the fbi is in charge of all kidnappings of americans anywhere in the world. and the letter said, this is paraphrased, mr. van dyk, we to inform you but we are closing your case. -- we regret -- we know this probably comes as a bit of a shock, difficult for you to comprehend. please don't think it's disrespectful anyway, but we have found that to close your
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case. if in sometime in the future we find reason to open it, we will. and i sat there and i said, they got away with it. the men who were involved in it, i said they got away with it it's up to me to go back and find out the truth. so those are the things that led me on this journey. >> so tell us a bit more about a number of political kidnappings and why they've started to occur in larger numbers. we don't actually i think you're about these cases as much as we should because one of the strategies of course is to try not to have it be a subject of discussion in the press. so how many people are being
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held at what's the motive for increasing political kidnapping? >> i don't know exactly how many people are being held today. it's important to distinguish political kidnappings and commercial kidnappings. if you work for shell oil and you are posted on an oil rig off the coast of nigeria, your chances of getting kidnapped are quite high. it's a business. all of these things are this is the they operate in lawless areas. those are political kidnappings. today al-qaeda has a protocol for dealing with political kidnappings. they used to get $250,000 about per-person and now it's up to you, well, most recent one was a swedish person who was caught a motorcyclist, tourist in the south of sahara and he was $10 million. so it is very much a business, but to get to your question, the
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exact number of political kidnappings, those been held today, a secret. i don't know. the fbi again would have that information. to the were closely with the cia? argue they fight with the cia. we all know the story after 9/11, if the fbi and the cia have worked together, maybe the information would've prevented 9/11. that still exist. one recent they compete, it's tribal warfare in washington, the one a a larger budget and e one greater power. but it's when fbi agent sydney,, the cia does not have to testify in court. they can operate completely under the radar. and without any accountability, which is i think, i'm getting ahead of myself, extremely dangerous. president trump is that now that the cia like the american military will have the ability to take the gloves off to fight
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in afghanistan and can he give greater part of the cia, greater latitude to use drones indiscriminately. in 2002, february 2002 february 2002, at the happened to cover this case, i was there at the time, daniel pearls case was the first political kidnapping after 9/11. he was kidnapped in pakistan. there were about 26 people involved in his kidnapping, about the same number who are involved in mind. both of them were pakistani, however it was an al-qaeda operation. many people feel that it was al-qaeda is way financing to the world that they existed. we know that what they just did a few weeks before the 9/11, but it was in the political world, this was in the political kidnapping world, this was their way of saying we are here. they introduce a new form of
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political warfare. kidnappings per se started in the modern era about 1983 with hezbollah taking terry anderson, another journalist in beirut, but post-9/11 which is the focus on now, because those people, all those held by hezbollah, were never, there was never a ransom demand for any of them. they were used as pawns against the united states in france, and that also in that era was the first time of the second part or the second side to the two-sided form of political warfare and that is suicide bombing. that's when they bombed the marine corps barracks in 1983 and ten minutes later they bombed the french paratrooper barracks. the first political suicide
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bombing in the afghan-pakistani theater took place in pakistan in 1995. it was orchestrated by the head of al-qaeda today. it's a very interesting back story to that and i'll come to the enemy. the second kidnapping was nicholas berg. the young entrepreneur i think from pennsylvania, went to iraq and he was kidnapped by zarqawi, a jordanian. and he comes out, he went to -- and this is introduction of al-qaeda into this. i'll talk about this more in a minute but he went from jail in amman to pakistan, and then he went to a refugee camp -- the guerrilla group in southern
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philippines its not its name, trained there, then went to tora bora and develop his jihadist credentials. he went to iraq and most paper i think all know this story, in order to create al-qaeda in iraq, he had to really assert himself in this vicious war against the shia but he kidnapped nicholas berg. it was shown on television. thereby, introducing truly al-qaeda to the worker i was at cbs in the newsroom the day that is video was shown and the argument between the national editor and another editor of similar stature over how much of this video are you going to show. because i do remember the screening. but the fact, what we're talking about here is absolute power of
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television and political kidnapping, a former war for use by the weak against the stronger the next kidnapping after that was in kabul a few months later when three u.n. workers were kidnapped, and that is when the u.s. army, and the u.s. embassy, it was the u.s. military more than anybody else said we have to shut this down. there's something starting here. so very hard to try to stop what happened in kabul to keep a relatively quiet. in researching my book i talked to the interior ministry who's in charge of all this and he said there's absolutely no ransom whatsoever. and i talked to a british intelligence agency, relative to my case about this and said no, there's absolutely no ransom whatsoever. and that i talked to old friend of mine who is the governor of kabul and you suggest, there was
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a c15 million ransom ransom and the money disappeared. what's the truth? as i said or today i don't know the truth. you may be able to discern based upon the evidence that i provide in the book. the u.n., the head of the u.n. to step in columbia refused to talk to me. i tried many times but he wouldn't answer me. the next kidnapping after that was in, three years later, in again afghanistan, and italian foreign correspondent who a bit cavalierly i felt somewhat arrogantly when i heard the story and very naïvely whenever the story went with an afghan fixer, which means guide, and a driver to southern afghanistan to meet with the taliban. and he was kidnapped. and the demand was that the karzai government release taliban prisoners, and that the
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italians remove themselves, about 1000 italians, members of nato, in afghanistan, remove all forces. italy refused. karzai refused to release the men. the taliban beheaded the driver and beheaded the fixer. italy panicked. italy paid a huge ransom and it was the first time that a government paid the ransom for a western kidnapping victim. there was never a chance for the pearls to ever have that opportunity. neither for the birds. -- a few much after that 23 again what it's a very naïve, south korean missionaries, christian missionaries went to afghanistan. it's illegal to evangelize if
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your christian. it's catholic church with anybody, whether a soldier or foreign worker or a mother, it's only she can go to church in afghanistan. they were kidnapped. two people were killed. two men were killed. the south korean intelligence agency paid according to reuters and others $22 million. the united states tracked them down and kill them all, and i was next. the demand for me was $1.5 million, and three men from guantánamo. the next person after me was david frum the "new york times," and his demand was $25 million, and which weekly came down, in his case, or in my case they called me the golden goose. a week after david was kidnapped i was out and went to the "new york times" and they started
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this group, same thing at cbs and the "wall street journal" and others have done, to the get what they're going to do. they said they called david the red rooster, what does that mean? they're not going to kill them. a kidnapping victim is a commodity. in my case they wanted to exchange my fixer, half his father come in as the collateral. if you want to take a loan out check your house, bank collateral. there it was a human being. in the kidnapping world the collateral is a human. next after that, real quickly, where it becomes extremely powerful is the execution of jim foley, which we all know about, and which is the second most remembered, , watch the remembed event on television since 9/11.
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there have been polls on this. the most remembered event and the american population is the towers coming down in that event. the second one is execution of jim foley. that is arguably the reason why the united states went to war. it or fight the nation much and galvanized obama, and that led to our war on isis. two weeks after that it was stephen sokolow and peter cassock and then kayla mayor bush is not executed that we purchase killed by a bomb. and which so upset the obama administration that they called all of us former hostages and families, those were killed to the white house, and in 2015 we met with president and the vice president as they tried to create a new form of policy where the united states would be able to talk, excuse me, people
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like my parents, my parents were not alive, i father was but my mother was in. my brother or my sister or the pearls come anybody could actually negotiate on their own with a kidnapping victim, excuse me, with the kidnappers. it's the first time and that became the policy. the final point which i i wanto touch on which i forgot to mention is that come because this is before 2000, the four 9/11, in 2000, to christian missionaries across -- were kidnapped in the southern philippines, with through a terrific year in the jungle. the george w. bush administration authorized a ransom. they said so publicly, $320,000. the money disappeared, and he
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has said publicly at a deal with this in the book is that they, the white house, said if it leads to the capture of the kidnappers, then this is the way we will ransom, therefore, it's possible, will provide a ransom. some people feel it was done for pushes christian consistency -- constituency. the united states did provide a ransom. now it is got to the point, made and skipping ahead, but when we're in the white house in 2015 we learned, and some of you made since on television, it came to the point where with the case of bowe bergdahl being kidnapped that the haqqani network which held him was able to extract a ransom payment for proof of life. life. and the pentagon did it.
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the fellow was in charge of that state so publicly, and he was going to be court-martialed but he was let out of the army shortly thereafter. and so today we have most recently, and we'll talk about this later, is this week we had a release of the family, a canadian and american family that was made headlines throughout the united states. i've been evolved into a a long time behind the scenes with families on the other side and i'll talk about that, but it just shows the power of kidnapping, and the most important thing about that was, the coleman one or the bowe bergdahl one was that the entire time from post-9/11 when the bush administration, first obama administration we would never negotiate with terrorists, so to speak. we would never deal with the taliban. the bowe bergdahl case, the haqqani network was able to
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raise itself to this point where the negotiated directly with the united states for the release of bowe bergdahl. so kidnapping has allowed elements of the taliban to achieve almost, i won't say nation stature to be accepted as a nationstate, but they're able to force it with the united states had to negotiate with the haqqani to get bowe bergdahl out. >> thank you for that. and for just talking about your own experience but also trying to get some context and remind us of all the individuals and families who have been affected by this, this strategy over these many years. you spend quite a a bit of time into quite a good job of portraying the complexity and the nuance of these radical islamist movements that are active in afghanistan and pakistan. these movements tend to run together in the might of the casual observer, and just listen
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to you speak now, you spoke a lot about the taliban or al-qaeda or the haqqani network or isis. so could you talk a little bit about the important differences that you see between those groups? and use any meaningful way to say that one of these groups may be more radical than others or more dangerous than others, in your view, in your investigation? >> certainly. radical is a very interesting word. and i'm certainly not taking a political stance when i say this, you call it one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. real quickly on particular my background in afghanistan, very quickly, and to think i can explain way. when i was very young man, i had been in the army, and a fellow
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who is here tonight, and we, afterwards i went to school, graduate school in paris on the g.i. bill. i realize in paris you could buy an old car and it was something that kids are doing in europe, and sell it in issue. you could drive across asia and seller. it was an adventure and a form to make money. i called my parents and to this day my brother and i didn't know what our mother said yes, but we bought an old volkswagen in germany and drove it across asia europe that was when iran was our ally. it was a great adventure. it is today, that road is called somewhat romantically as opposed the hippie trail. it's a movie called midnight express about billy hayes, drug trafficking and he got caught in istanbul. when we finally arrived in afghanistan, we ran out of
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money. i got in a car accident, an iranian car place took to whaty i had left. there were five to 6000 hippies in kabul, and accountable, i said town by the city, about two and 50,000, a small city, schoolgirls wore long socks interest in short skirts like catholic schoolgirls in the us. there were nine movie theaters and the city two and 50,000, outdoor cafés. women dressed as it did in europe. the brother-in-law and first cousin of the king who was former prime minister over to the king and established the republic. he had an issue as prime minister gone to john kennedy or the kennedy administration asked for money, for made. we said no so went to the soviet union. he began to move to the soviet union, this man was seen by young men, young muslim activist
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as the red prince. during that time whether it was from berlin to berkeley, it was either, here it had to do a lot with the vietnam war but it was marxism, communism, socialism. versus against islam. and young men under the tutelage of certain professors in kabul university, gone to school in egypt, under the influence of the muslim brotherhood and the principal literary backbone if you will of the most brotherhood, bin laden is favorite author, brought those books back, 12 of them fled across the country pakistan. i interviewed the major general who took them in for this book. he gave them codenames. baker, candlestick maker -- taker, mason, electrician and so forth, given passports, lesson in the pakistani army to train
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them. he told me, this is important, in 1972, then it went to the u.s. embassy and asked for money. i've been unable to find out if we suggest and gave the money but anyway in 1975, these young men, first there were about 12, ultimately there were hundreds came over and they brought over the professor who gave them the books from cobb kabul universi. they call themselves the mujahedin, which means an pashto or inversion or in arabic holy warrior. mujahedin is the pool. they launched attacks against government installations in afghanistan. 1975. most of them were killed or captured in july 1979, robert gates has written about this, former head of the cia has written about this in his book and from the shadows, his memoir being head of the city, civic
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and bush brzezinski said interview 1990 french newspaper, magazine, the cia, meaning the united states, jimmy carter's administration begin to find secretly july 1979, the mujahedin, in order to, and this is the words, these are not my words, lure the soviet union into afghanistan to pay it back for backing, anybody who watched the ken burns documentary knows this, backing the vietcong and the north vietnamese when we were in vietnam. the chinese became our allies during this time, so the idea was, and the head of the isi, the military intelligence arm of the pakistani army said in his book, his memoir of his time, and he was in charge of the money they came in and distributing it among all the
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mujahedin, the principal reason in his view, it's borne out by brzezinski and gates, the reason that we went in there was revenge. so together we created and began to nurture will be called the mujahedin. at the same time, the 9/11 commission deals very weakly with some of this. talk about numbers. we with our allies from algeria, from egypt, from saudi arabia, from yemen about the muslim world, even according to rumors i've heard through brooklyn, meaning the u.s., there were offices in each of these countries. and zarqawi, the man who beheaded nicholas berg is in this category, there are offices in every one of these countries were a young man, disgruntled young man, on his own, looking for something to do in life, something greater than himself, a cause i'm something of which
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to live, something to give a purpose in life could go into an office, would get a passport, visa, he would get a plane ticket and an allowance to go to pakistan. according to this 9/11 commission report over 20,000, and i think there were many more. these men are all arabs are the most part but there were indonesians, filipinos, some cases untold some americans, and they were taken into a certain place, a house where they could get some food and maybe stay, then sent to refugee camps and then into the country. they became, one of the men went, part of that group and help them in the house was osama bin laden, and this became, and the house is called the base, al-qaeda means the base, what we today call al-qaeda. so they both came out of that
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cauldron, if you will, of afghanistan. another man who was there was the man who beheaded nick berg. his name was zarqawi, and he came, he made his way back carrying his jihad within which he wanted to bring to jordan where he killed i believe it was in 2002 an american diplomat, and then the u.s. invasion in iraq. he went into iraq to create al-qaeda there. one of the men who worked for him in this group from mujahedin, they call themselves, was a man was al-baghdadi, who is the founder of isis. so it's what started in 1973 is now at a point where they are all almost the same.
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there is really no -- >> the children of al-qaeda? >> the children of the stepchildren of al-qaeda. the taliban, when i was in captivity, i had to listen for hours and hours and hours to taliban suicide tapes. and in those taliban suicide gates, recruitment tapes it would talk about, it's almost like a haunting the and the boys choir. a chant about afghan poetry, pashtun, passion, exceeds me. pashtuns being arguably the largest ethnic group, largest number or in pakistan, second number in afghanistan, proximally 50 million, give or take. they would saying or chant of poetry and history and
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geography. the taliban are more of a nationalist movement. very much a nationalist movement but there's not a boy with a become too complicated, is not a boy over ten years old and afghanistan who doesn't think or doesn't really, doesn't feel like every male, everybody, every pashtun that the british when they went to afghanistan and the first bridge crossed from india, crossing will recall the indus river into the land of the pashtuns, about the same time that lewis and clark reached the pacific ocean. today which is part of pakistan, they call the foreword policy which is to prevent the russians from coming down and taking the crown jewel, the british empire, this board of the corridor which divides afghanistan from pakistan which afghan government has of accepted including the
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taliban government. so this is where the war is being fought. this is the center of this, what the, the center, the birthplace, the fountainhead of all of these movements. >> so one other movement you didn't mention yet, haqqani network. how does network relate to isis, al-qaeda, the taliban? >> when i was this young, naïve journalists/explorer, more explore in my naïve way than journalist of any sophistication at all, went to afghanistan, i went along the border in the shower, and the mujahedin by then had been divided up by
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pakistan into seven major political parties. and the u.s. and saudi arabia were each, this came out in the movie part of wilson's war, and i was the technical advisor on the war right got in numerous arguments with the cia analysts on the war, and i will come to that in a second but they do with it in charlie wilson's war. and that is, and i just, my mind just went blank. what was i talking about? >> i was asking you about the haqqani network and you told me about speeders were we got intn argument over the haqqani network. in 1981 when a way to afghanistan i went to these major political parties and i went to one in particular. i liked him better than the others, and a man who is today is my best friend in afghanistan, is a major part of my book and the reason why i was kidnapped untold, sent me to live with a group of mujahedin
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in the mountains. there were 20 of them. the league i was named -- and his brother was abraham haqqani. and they were not part of the original group that fled across, from kabul to pakistan and for what was called the mujahedin. they were separate. in 2015, in april, and i may be getting ahead of myself and hade to do it to answer your question, when i went back to find out who really kidnapped me and why, it took a long time but i went, ended up with two tribal leaders i have known, and they arranged for me, anyways i still can't quite put altogether how they did it, but with the
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haqqani said. and i became an am the only western journalist to have met with them since, before 9/11. i had three meetings with them, the most recent one was in june, and had many conversations with them. they are separate. they are not part of the mujahedin. the established, and the father raised goats. they come from the mountains, but this family is remarkable in its ability to go from the mountains of eastern afghanistan to the point where they're able to negotiate almost directly with the government with bowe bergdahl and with the coleman. there are two more that they're holding, two more, an american and an australian. the haqqani network is arguably, certainly the oldest and
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arguably the most lethal most effective, deadliest terrorist organization in the world, and that includes isis when you count the number of people they have killed. they are separate. they are their own arm of, according to admiral mike mullins, 2011 testimony before the senate armed services committee, haqqani network is an integral part or arm of the pakistani army. so terrorist groups do not operate generally in a vacuum. there are state links from yemen to egypt to saudi arabia, turkey. so the haqqani said and it's a really good point you brought up, the haqqani said are unique
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in that they are neither isis, neither al-qaeda. they are neither the taliban. they were the mujahedin. publicly they state that they are the taliban, but they hold a unique position pakistani army. and when i was with the cia, former head of the cia in pakistan when we were technical advisors i think the title on charlie wilson's war, we're having lunch in a hotel in hollywood, and i asked him about the haqqanis and he lowered his head and he said i wish they'd come over to our side. so there was a bond that develop between, to go with the haqqanis and the cia, and i cannot claim innocence or because there is a bond between us in a certain way and that they would allow me to come back and see them and spend hours and hours talking with
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him. they are separate. >> thank you for that. every answer that you give provides so much complexity and i can think about ten different different questions to ask. i do want to get to some of the questions that i've gotten from the audience, and when a particular is to bring up to the present is about use engagement and policy in afghanistan. i would like to ask you, back in 2010 you and many other journalists wrote an open letter to president obama advocating that he moved to seek a peaceful -- with the taliban. how do you feel about prospects for peace in afghanistan? and the continued u.s. involvement in afghanistan toda today. >> the war against the soviet union, the war between the united states involvement in
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afghanistan, which began in so far as we're concerned very seriously 1979, the mujahedin were seen as a proxy army of the united states in the cold war. we did not want to put obviously soldiers, our own soldiers and troops in afghanistan, so we hired this mercenary army of arabs and turks and filipinos and indonesians which became al-qaeda got time we find it wh saudi arabia the mujahedin, thereby taking a very tolerant, very, very tolerant nation like afghanistan and turning large elements of it especially in the rural parts into a wahhabi in saudi arabia, afghanistan. ..
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that cavern of war that created that the soviet union's could not win and pulled out and in the geneva accords it ended that war and in geneva it was pakistan and afghanistan and the united states and the soviet union were on the sides. the only reason that were and it was because it was negotiated but it really didn't end because even though we did not provide as much is poor we still kept active in the soviet union kept
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pouring arms into that then communist government that they had empowered and it continued. afghanistan has been in more now since 1978. clearly, since 1979 -- out of which came the tragedy of 911 and so from president bush when in to try and destroy al qaeda and was asked and wanted to more than anything else get ben london and omar didn't want to do it and it was clear to me that no other way that he would go against his ancient tribal code and give up a guest in his home that is called [inaudible] but it was a movie about an american soldier named latrell who was shot down and the only one who survived in a taliban attack and a shepherd took
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latrell in and against his own tribesmen and villagers to protect him because that is required under tribal law. that inability which is ancient afghanistan coupled with what hamas him in the vast influx of weaponry into afghanistan has created an in the new world. the television which emerged to try and cleanse the land of their aaron's brothers today are backed by pakistan and today still wage war and president obama had close to 90000 troops in afghanistan and then he pulled them all out. the war continued. now a new president said he will
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take the gloves off and he will allow the cia greater latitude with drones and he'll allow the army to commanders on the ground to do what needs to be done to clean this up, more air support, the more air support the more villagers you will kill and the more villagers you kill you'll send every boy, cousin, relative, to the delavan, out of revenge and so one of 15000 troops going to do with 90000 troops could do? it's a long-winded way of answering the caller to say that the only way this will be resolved in islamabad. and i say islamabad because other nations there was one negotiation so hard, war and peace talks in 2014 in "the new york times" and at the table you had representatives of afghanistan, representatives of the tele- man and it's not clear
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because i her different stories that us has said that we did not have anybody in the room and the chinese were in the room but what is interesting is on one side of the table representative afghanistan was the very man whose family i was close to which led me getting it happened to me representing afghanistan. on the other side of the table leading on behalf of the tele- man, even though it's not a member of the taliban was abraham, the younger brother who is the head of the television. these men were once allies. once in the same political party and today with the chief negotiators as separate countries. in 2017 or in april this year abraham told me that i talked with mohammed a couple of times
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on my own about this and that and i said wait a minute. i said to myself that i didn't bring this up with him. is that you were in negotiating across the tables as enemies what you just told me you were talking with him together about whatever you were talking about, twice. there are two things for yes, you have to negotiate under the table and there's a part of afghanistan that no foreigner can penetrate and that no one can know so it's a combination of serious negotiations among nations as well as to realize the afghans will have to realize they will resolve this and can resolve this if the pressure is put on them and that will have to come from pakistan as well as the us. >> so it's a crucial question to what extent pakistan in two separate intelligent influences the actions of radical islamists in afghanistan. you given a lot of thought to
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this relationship and what conclusions have you reached? >> you have all noticed -- this is very delicate. in doing with the kidnapping that in the last week there has been a case of the stories of the cia tracking the boil: family, jason boyle, canadian, caitlin coleman, american, what we thought were two children, three children, maybe four and one did not survive and that the cia after five years provided
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intelligence to the pakistani army which swooped in in a rescue attempt and killed all the captors and read the hostages and they are home and everyone frees a sigh of relief and we are all happy. truly, clearly, enormously happy there out to live in back and in 2017 i had meetings of the national security council in the white house -- before i went in again to see them. i was advised not to go because they were afraid something would happen to me and as they must say, but the head of all the people i met was the only one who didn't say that.
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all she said was be safe. in other words, there was no indication that i cannot go. the network is a terrorist organization so designated by the department of treasury and therefore it's illegal for a united states representative, diplomat, to negotiate or to talk to me with a terrorist organization. we are not supposed to do that. you cannot do that under us law. now, when i step back and in 2015 after the meeting and white house a man involved in my connecting was a british intelligent agent called me and said he's coming to the us and could he meet me in station in new york and wanted to meet my friend, david rhodes also. he was up in new england where he's from with his family so i went. we were meeting and i looked
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over and i saw two pakistanis come in this café and i said wait, those are the two men provided the first be said that i was ever given by pakistan to go back to and where i saw the [inaudible] and he said they were friends of mine. and so we all talked and then he said i understand that you've met with the [inaudible] and i said yes. i said the only trust in me and i don't know quite what to do about that. he acknowledged that and i don't think i'll ever be able to be back into pakistan after this meeting. and so november came and keeping the government informed of my involvement because what i've been trying to do since this
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book, the book on that i have written is not quite intended to write. i wanted to go back and resolve things and i do want to talk to you a bit about that subparagraph but i don't lose track of the need story. when i went back it was made clear that i could see the [inaudible] i had another contract through counsel and formulations to trace all the various networks that emanate from pakistan, yemen and saudi arabia with isis because i'm in this unique position because of my age and background are not married and i don't have children and i still go out and do this with those men who were our allies who are today are enemies whether they're in yemen or egypt or pakistan. that's what i was doing and went back after steven was murdered i
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secretly went back to afghanistan right that as soon as i entered the country in which the airport that my name was on the list because the jailer said we will not let them indicates a second time in the tele- man just don't wear beards and lectures. they are clean-shaven and everywhere. very skidded operation. i went to see my friend who i thought that i had in my relationship to him had been kidnapped and sat in the hotel and i told him the story and i said no, it's this. and told me it's one 100% 80 degrees different. my advice to you is to be very soon because what you are involved in here is something much greater than yourself and it's far too dangerous and you must leave. so the next day i went to former head of the nds which is the accommodation of the cia, fbi retired and i told him my story and he looked at me and said
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this is an afghan talking to american said have you seen the movie 12 years of slave i said i don't know what that is. i've been in the middle east for the last year studying on the project and so he said you are that man. everyone who you think was your friend is your enemy. were not talking just about afghans. that is what set me on this very long dark murky labyrinth which i will never reemerge probably out of it came this book. then as i was finishing that because i met with the [inaudible] because this opportunity opened up to me because they began to open up to me and talk to me about how undethinking they were about the bergdahl exchange and i didn't quite understand what they were
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talking about and i took this information in this washington and this is far bigger than that but i'm simply upon in your being used. i realized this is something much greater and that i had role to play perhaps to help others and i'm thinking this opportunity and this is after which i met with this man, former british intelligent agent and i thought for some reason got wind of this and they want salami come back in and told everyone the story in this group of counterterrorism and security council and the member state permits and no, jerry, we think they would welcome a visa application from you. then i met later separately with the member called the fusion cell which is a bureaucratic swat team that president obama and his a ministration set up to deal with kidnappings set up after the deaths of the nicest
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people. you read about this in june 2015 when we all met with the president on this. and he created this fusion cell which is to bring the cia and the fbi in the department of defense and the state department and everyone together, representative, to try and use the various we will call them travel in cities in washington together to work for the betterment and to find ways to release americans being held hostage, political representatives people being held hostage around the world. in so i asked and told the same story to the fbi and he said no, jerry, we think the pakistanis would welcome an application visa application from you. there is no way in the world that i could be allowed to go back to pakistan to meet with the [inaudible] and to meet with them as i do in the last time i
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was told i would be vetted by the pakistani ambassador to the un and that i could do this without the complete and total approval of the [inaudible]. no way that i could close to the economies without them. >> joshua boyle in his family and they were taken by the network and held by the network and so what is your take on their story and was this a political or a commercial kidnapping? >> good question. i'm going to tell you what -- i know a little more and i don't know a lot but i'll tell you what i know what you think on this but what we know publicly is that joshua boyle, canadian,
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married to a controversial awkward background in that he was married to the sister of a man named omar qatar in one domino having killed in americ american, to americans, i believe, and his sister is very outspoken and nothing wrong with that on behalf of brother but i read somewhere that there were ties to bin laden somehow was involved here and i asked myself what in the world when i heard about this is a man taking a pregnant woman into afghanistan, there's no journalist in couple that would go out into the country by themselves without afghan guides and go to a village where you're completely
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protected to go to the province where tele- man is everywhere is to me a principle. >> did he describe herself as a program. >> yes, but there's another man others have tried that and well, they are not around. even if you are a program you are also a commodity and you also you're a commodity something to sell. i found it strange maybe he was a program he saw. this way and they went together but i thought it was awkward and strange. i still do. but they wanted to do that and they were held captive seen the videos. for five years and no one seems to know where they were. then president from, more than
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any other president, in his speech announcing his afghan policy really criticized publicly texting and did not mince words about his ties to terrorist groups and in fact we been diplomatic and her statements about that over the years. full court press on this. it was interesting that in september within a month that pakistan has received $12.5 billion since 911 and has been allied with the united states in the cold war since 1954 would want to lose this relationship even though pakistan and china are extremely close now that they would want to lose this tie to the united states. and so within it's not unreasonable to think that
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perhaps and it is interesting that the cia within a few weeks of this was unable to do it for five years find the boyle pullman and provide this information to the isi with which it was very closely allied during the 1980s and 1990s and one thing that bothered me about working on charlie wilson's war was that the director had asked me did i complain and were shooting this i was simply the little guy on the side but i said were in morocco shooting this movie in these mountains are not like afghanistan because afghanistan has these magnificent mounds that i finally convinced her to do something and she said all right. go back, find a helicopter and camera crew go up and take people up into the air shoot footage and maybe we can do something. i went back and i found people to do this. i got a phone call from the cia
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advisor a movie and he said do not do anymore. i convinced the director that i can do it and i said will get friends from the pakistani army and go up in a helicopter into it. he's been out of the cia for 20 years and he's going to call his friends in the pakistani army there to take a helicopter up over afghanistan where the united states controls airspace and he is that close them that they can call him up and gives you the spinach. my goodness. this tie that might've ended with the pakistan army 20 years later is certainly very strong so that is my way of saying perhaps there are links still there. now, to bring us back, with the network to me they could certainly be using me one 100%. that they wanted the coleman
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family to be able to see allow the parents to see their grandchildren and they would allow me to bring them over to see the but i would have to bring a letter from the us government which means something. and within the last three weeks that was what we were trying to do. it is difficult for me to believe entirely that the network would allow any of their men to kill a girl because think about this children being born in a baked mud hut in a compound in the tribal areas for the afghan border cannot do this alone. they had to do this with mothers, with women nurture those children and provide whatever needs to be provided in the bond develops between them. i find it difficult to believe
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that one child was murdered. this is a terrible thing to complete but i am confused as to exactly what really happened based upon what i know what i've been involved in on my own. it's so complex and so murky just like: carol world of political kidnapping because they were concerned about the welfare of the children and grandparents to see them and that they would be according to the us tribal area along the afghan, pakistani border primarily shiite area but there are some sunnis there. it's like catholic and protestant and islam. and that the sea i could do all of this. it's very murky and that's my only way to answer your
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question. the pakistani army in the network have been together since the 1970s and they certainly will continue to be in the role of the united states remains to me streaming murky also. >> so, what can i say? journalism is a risky business and your story is and the risks that you taken personally is inspiring to all of us but i'm afraid we are out of time at this point. so i apologize for not getting to everyone's questions and i want to thank jerry van dyck on in behalf of the world affairs and i want to invite you to get jerry's book or both books. i think tonight we have the captive and the trade and please do come and ask the questions that you have that i didn't get a chance to ask. thank you very much, jerry.
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[applause] >> here's a look at some of the best books of the year according to him. chief us columnist for "the financial times" argues that liberal democracy is threatened in the retreat of west turn liberalism. in the last castle denise reports on the courthouse, the largest private providence in american history. tom nichols, professor of national security affairs that the us naval war college, argues that due to the spread of the internet and a four hour news expert opinion is now being discounted in the death of expertise. you can wrapping up our look at amazon's best books of 2017 is
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buzz feeds essays on her upbringing as the daughter of indian immigrants in canada. one day we will all be dead and none of this will matter. >> in my eight. biology class or teacher gave us a checklist of dominant versus recessive teachers how babies come out looking the way they do. the subtext from this particularly nationalistic teacher preferred to me earlier that we would all end up looking darker and more vague than we did in the past. she wasn't exactly unhappy about it but she did express some concern regarding the eventual loss of the blue eye in natural blonde. we were paired up with someone from the opposite next week look at jeans and see what our potential child will look like. can we really try this home? a public school teacher in suburban calgary told her
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teenage students to pretend they were going to have sex with each other in their biologically likely babies and i was one of the only ethnic kids in the class, my jeans were already steamrolling everyone else's and my partner, eric, a white boy who was a hollister t-shirt personified went down the checklist me and when we arrived at hair on fingers or knuckles i looked down at my hands for what seemed like the very first time and standing up were soft, strand blacks hair and i was horrified. how i how had i never noticed a grotesque feature. i had overlooked this new barbarity where i don't have eric said while i had my hands under the desk. i nodded and said neither. >> some of these authors have appeared on the tv and you can watch them on her website, booktv .org. >> i'm not going to tell some veteran so i was looking at the
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questions they were asking and one thing i would like to say is when we were promoting [inaudible] america from watching the trump campaign if you think america that the world will blow up and i was down in la in the nixon library canceled on me and i don't know if you know it used to be a fantastic library and now it's run by the government so now it's the anti- nixon library and found that one early saturday morning in the middle of december called margie on her cell phone and instantly. instantly. that was so wonderful. you really are a wonderful editor, always available on her cell phone and ask and i know we have to get to champagne but i did want to go back to my first book and i looked at a phrase from the clinton era distinguishing characteristics and the distinguishing characteristics was always
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famously others to take the test books and no new york publisher would publish them but [inaudible] published them and they became national bestsellers one of which my favorite of that was leo the moore's privilege about senator kennedy having drowned the girl in the truth about the appearance of one of the cousins to talk to him and he was ticked off at kennedy saying you say you were driving? years later leo get this all on the record and no new york publisher would publish it and play seven weeks on the excellent list and more recently there was a periodically flags of our fathers does not flags of our mothers and 27 new york publishers turn it down but
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[inaudible] published it in 44 weeks on the new york bestsellers list. in the trump era this is hysteria and i'm not sure if you read but it's every day about somehow trumps facebook page that they think russia is behind. [laughter] if you visited america in 2016 you would notice outside the major cities you couldn't drive a mile without seeing a drop sign but i'm sure. >> you can watch this and other programs online at the tv .org. this was the final home of civil war general and president ulysses s grant and this is the place where ulysses grant penned his memoirs in 1

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