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tv   2018 Los Angeles Times Festival of Books  CSPAN  April 22, 2018 11:00pm-1:01am EDT

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why they would be accepting this and why the democracies and responsibilities are to care for the poor and the impoverished if the world. we were having this conference in la but maybe in texas that would have been the opening statement. but if we bring to a certain set of -- ten empathy change anything? .. p >> from the privilege of my work in my research and responsibility all say why is this a problem?
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it doesn't have to be a problem but we also don't get to have it both ways were say the united states is like this wonderful benevolent character on the global stage. but also why is this our problem. rough and trying to make it both ways. in the case of el salvador i came across a ronald reagan speech from the 80s where they're basically calling for support for u.s. intervention in central america. by intervention it turns out funding and sending guns and training the troops of a
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horrific silver war. who scorch the campaign cemented many civilians. ronald reagan was saying what happens enough el salvador matters to us. what's happening is important to me need to intervene there. it's interesting because they now are saying it's not our problem. so we decide as a country to intervene in places based on what is politically expedient tests. at the time where afraid that the idea of a socialist government was too close for us. but now were say not our problem. they need to solve their own problems within their own job but we help costs a crisis that several decades along -- it's a
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little shortsighted to say history is long and the seeds that we so now will come back to haunt us in years to come. the current migration crisis. >> when i first started researching the book i had in mind something different. i was in so turkey and greece on decrepit little boats designed to hold ten people and hold 40. i followed some of the refugees from syria as they move through greece. they make an appearance in the book but i shifted gears. i wanted to build empathy but as this political mood shifted in europe i wanted to focus more on the politicians. i spent time with marie le pen
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and people like builders and i think it's important for any of us to want to fight against the ideas to really understand where they come from. also what underlying strategy it is is very dangerous and not consistent with democratic values. i shifted in that direction. one thing i found as i was researching it becomes a strategy to move this problem out of sight. so the public has no empathy. one contract i focused on and i imagine they haven't followed through his australia is becoming a model for a lot of european countries. they turn them back towards indonesia or wherever or they divert to remote specific islands in the middle of nowhere where they warehouse these refugees for years and say you can speak asylum on the island
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of neruda but you will never get it in australia. it takes it out of the public eye. of the people were arriving in sydney harbour there'd be empathy. they might have different political views but they would be there. when there on a remote pacific island nobody knows what's going on. the condition has been her rent us. there been riots and you may have read between australia and the u.s. that trump us was upset about. but what they did was keep them out of sight out of mind a lot are trying to copy this model. politicians have been talking about this a while. when i went to interview them they mentioned it before i could answer the question.
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i was in denmark a few years ago the day after i arrived the leader of the social democrats actually made it explicitly part of this party's platform in tunisia and other places. it hasn't come to pass yet but what's alarming is it's coming from the left. a lot of these parties don't really have to win. they just have to shift shift the debate to the left. >> trumps policy about succeeding but there's a risk of ideology becoming more of the mainstream. >> it's amazing. everyone is trying to sweep the problem away.
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as some point you can tonight any longer. what do you think the world should be doing? 4 million in the middle east, the u.s. is cutting back at least trump is trying, he stepping up arrest. just yesterday i read and i'm sure some of you saw this disturbing story is one of trump's mechanisms is to discourage people from emigrating is to separate young children from their families. the last six months immigration authorities have taken away 700 children under the age of four from their parents and put them in their own situation and set them in it detention center.
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it's not an explicit policy. it's very disturbing. that would make people think twice about coming to the united states. to have any ideas about how the u.s. and the world should be approaching these questions differently. >> i think at the very least you could engage debates in a responsible way. i think it already suggests that you have to be ready for the conversation and comprehensive immigration reform is something a lot of congressmen and senators have been thinking about. yet they don't have the opportunity to come to the floor
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and speak their position. at the very least that's the dialogue we need just so we can begin to move to the challenge. for me this idea keeping policy in the back room where you're developing it and really letting a process of debate be engaged with it that's a dangerous part where we have a healthy debate. beyond that i pay attention to the news and focus more on how it's been fell to the ground level. >> i can just say that it's true
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that desperate people and this would be true for all of us in this room that if we are desperate and feel like our lives our children's lives are at risk that we will leave where we are and seek something better. even if leaving is the desert is coming through mexico it's a risky journey. you people take it knowingly every day because they're fleeing unlivable conditions at home. something that was unknown to me was that young women and girls believe central america you have to pack water layer and a change of clothes and if you're a young woman you could on birth control because it's almost assumed that you will be raped.
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and yet people are taking the journey anyway because conditions are so bad so know that no deterrence through detention strategy laws have not and will not stop people from coming who are desperate. they find ways over walzer under walls around them. i mean the physical and the more symbolic walls of policy. no walls have worked throughout time. >> so until conditions in these countries are better people are going to keep coming. that's just how it is. >> it's been framed as a crisis. if you look at the numbers if
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you compare that to lebanon or jordan or turkey, the numbers pale in comparison to the neighboring countries. it came onto the news agenda because people were alarmed but the actual huge refugee populations are these neighboring countries. the policy questions down the road. what happens when there's a real crisis? that could take place if there's a massive drought, it could happen if bangladesh goes underwater. it's a large populous country if people can't survive they're going to move. it's going to happen somewhere. so might come to the u.s. or australia, but that's when the
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political backlash could grow much worse. the thing set in motion that are disturbing could really take off. that's what i worry about down the road. one other thing about the debate is that in some european countries you have a divide among conservatives. people say the muslims are coming to take over and we must fight them. there's not much dialogue that can happen. it's an idea you have to fight against but there's another strand of conservatism in europe where people committed to making a multiethnic society work. they say maybe we need to talk
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about numbers of the rate at which people are working. if we want these to work may be 1 million people in a single year's too much. i think it's worth having a debate we may disagree and you have that debate but you have this diverse society. i think that's where it's happening but you need to push back very hard because they have no interest in that. >> also the global south has been taking on the world's refugee crisis for years. we haven't batted an eye about it. will send a money.
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it is of note and so when you look at the current international crises and what's been going on for decades it's been going on for nothing in comparison. >> in those countries it could get ugly too. one of the other countries right now there putting south africa there's real hostility from them from south africans there is
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been violence against somalis the same kind of ideas and arguments are being made there. and it's very scary. then you're pushing back against these ideas this is a society that welcomes people up to a point from other countries and that really is unheard in the morning. there a few but i wish there were more. >> some of this conversation is make me feel depressed. however the fact that were having this conversation here makes me feel inspired because i think it's learning about each other stories that is a lot of
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the silo in an isolation that's a prerequisite for the difficult vision that were having. to me when the movie coco came out i thought i did more for helping immigration policy than a lot of other political initiatives. it took a story that is for cultural and showed how it translated. i have faith that i think we will be able to share our stories in a way that we share humanity. in all humans have the right to a dignified experience. hopefully we can come up with policies to maximize.
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>> ultimately that's what we have to do. if you look at what's happening in the republican party of the united states which is the party in power moderate democrat have been squeezed out and they no longer have any sway other people have the power of the ones for this to the right there all he always recyclers in government and hopefully that will change. do you have an idea what the fear is if it really turned into a crisis. what democratic institutions d.c. and that are really at risk. the fact that they are democratic institutions are frail or than we think.
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>> unauthorized immigration into the united states is that historic low. i just want to put that out there. >> in the long-term we've already seen attacks on independent judges. before the travel ban he attacked, it's a cornerstone of any liberal democracy. in france we saw secular laws central to the way france defined itself. you probably recall in august of 2016 if you look at who we targeted was that nuns wearing habits were jewish women in ankle-length's third set was
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muslim. your fine estate sent those representatives onto the beaches. so are already starting to see these things. once there's actually a real massive number of people coming in these ideas will catch on easier. there's been some resistance. we saw the mobilization of airports after the travel ban. resolve and strike down the fans so the independent institutions of the state have reacted and that's great. if there are 10 million or 20 million people coming in 20 of the societies that's going to strain the social fabric. that's when these ideas from populist demagogues catch on. what we see is a warning signal.
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it's forming attacks on judges in basic civil rights. could get worse. when you drill down and talk to these politicians they don't care about the ideas, they care about what they think the mass of voters want. there are moments when the majority faces expulsion of an entire group. the ethnic cleansing is quite popular. it's disturbing it's popular they can come along and say were channeling the anger of the people. so we need to think about what democracy me means that is these kind of institutions and safeguards that stop things from going off the rails when the population is angry.
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>> it's distressing that this is happening at a time of economic prosperity. it's much better than after the 2008 crash. we're going to open up the floor for questions. before i do that i want to tell everyone these will be available to sign. encourage you to come and buy your books. authors need our support we will ask everyone to speak into a microphone because this is being filmed. >> love you read a book by paul bloom called against empathy
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were he argued that when you're thinking about public policy may be what you need is an empathic certain rational compassion. you're concerned about fear trumps any other motion have you thought about whether you want to invoke compassion concern as opposed to an emotional connection? >> i think we can lean sometimes too heavily on wanting to create empathy. if you like our project must could be more complicated than that. part of what i wanted to show was -- i started this book before trump was elected and that a moment when i was so sure
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it would be completely irrelevant there was fear of the other in fear of these children storming and flooding across the border. and i wanted to show the fear they have that was motivating them. that's really important. to access this fear that's happening in this country and to show the fears inherent in the profile of those were told we should fear. >> my responses that i like the distinction is very powerful and build it into my work. it's a manifestation of a lot of
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things going on. when you work with young people is visceral. and if you're an adult and seeing someone manifesting fear to responsibility. to me understanding is the goal in dialogue. the fact that we assume there's no responsibility in the current situation with immigrant communities is a source of concern. on a look at the stories that will open up some kind of window or door for us to engage in addressing. >> it's the next one question. i think it's the most mobilizing
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force. all of these politicians i interviewed one down to the lower level people and it goes for every country they're very aware of it. those who want to push back against the game need to realize that. part of the solution might be what you're suggesting. rather than going for the heartwarming stories like for the syrian engineer whose treating the children he didn't have a dr. in their community before. pay these people as equals. part of it is political pr. to push back in the to make rational arguments. some will still be overcome by fear. the beginning of that process is to realize was causing them to
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win fear is a big part of the. >> this is a question for lauren. could your brothers consider the option the temporary program for protected status and others bills in congress to extend this to give the recipients the past permanent residency. >> the temporary protective status offered to 200,000. adorns. they had by far the most number
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of status holders and that's a status very much under the gun right now. they were not eligible for that status unless that program was significantly extended was the just trying to keep as is they would not have qualified for it either. >> thank you and congratulations i have been maybe if by the americans and then i forgot
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about it that something happened that brought me back to the usa a long time ago. my question maybe for you is there an organization where an immigrant can get together and be the force that we want to the set of being pushed around? for example 44 and they were through of airplane i didn't even know what an airplane was that the angle of the sun in the early morning in the plane all we could see was the lights like stars.
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there's something the children that especially with immigrants. later because of the place so in the 80s when the first boeing 47 was hijacked [inaudible] [inaudible] after 9/11 mayor giuliani sent me a letter thanking me for what i was doing but he was too late.
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>> how can we get together to solve the problem. >> how can immigrants essentially get together and promote their interests? we have to wrap it up fast. someone wants to answer that quickly. >> i want to encourage everyone to come to signing area. if you have more questions you can ask in the. [applause]
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[inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] >> for all the panels are coming up this afternoon. a couple of : programs as well. a full schedule available book tv.org joining us now is patrice, co-author of this book when they call you a terrorist
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terrorists,. >> came from alecia garza 2013. i had -- she joined alecia and i to start a global movement. >> what was the impetus while the killing of trayvon martin are in george simmerman his murderer went to trial. many of us believe, i know i did that he was receiving some sort of jail time but he got to go home is not evicted he was acquitted. in that moment i was upset and
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confused. i knew i don't want that to be the end of the story so wanted to go look to see what people were doing. it essentially told black folks that we had to do something and she closed it with black lives matter i was in a little town called susanville visiting one of my mentees. he had been convicted of a crime and spending ten years, 85% of that time inside the prison instead of california. >> what kind of work were you doing? >> i've been a community organizer since i've been 17.
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i was mentoring young people at the time. i was trying to reform the daytime curfew law so young people were getting tickets for they're going to school. >> what does the phrase all five matter mean to you? >> it's a copout phrase. i think there is say they would rather fight against racism i have other people afraid of being honest and transparent about what others have done for decades and centuries. >> patrice is the author of this book, when they call you a terrorists. if you want to participate you
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can call in you regularly call the terrorists? >> lately not as much but, yes. it comes up often. the first time where called terrorists was in 2016 after the shootings of the dallas police that the dallas community came out. sometimes i get trolls, i know that this president think that black lives matters as a terrorist organization. >> what will one thing that hasn't been discussed as lunches
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the war on drugs in the drug war. were generation that's been no by the drug war and the war gains. we've been written off by best incarceration been written off by broken public schools by gentrification that keeps us out of the very neighborhoods we've helped to build. how is that a black lives matter movement. >> what's important for people to understand is the word drux was positioned against black and brown communities. what we've witnessed is the ratcheted up of criminalizing our communities resulted in millions of people and enough in jails and prisons across the country. were talking about real human
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beings. i talked about what it meant to mail family. our entire community was under siege until we are pushed out. so many people don't realize they get to go back to their own communities they get to see their friends and families but for folks get pushed out. war on drugs as part of the lecture platform to challenge people. >> who is that family member? your brother. >> kiss my brother and also my father and my uncle and the impact that has on black woman like my mother who has to deal with but it meant to have her child in person and take care of all of us.
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my brother who suffers from -- that incarceration he was brutally beaten. instead of giving the care and the dignity is brutalized and humiliated and never giving care for a way out of the cycle of incarceration. >> is this a class or race issue? >> it's both. we think about trayvon martin. when he was killed. when it was over criminalize. they end up getting the bronx of racism country.
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>> was for the reaction to your book? >> it was the new york times bestseller which i was grateful and amazed. so many people have been looking for a story like this. many folks have congratulated me so many people said they didn't know black people started black lives matter. surprisingly i have not received many trolls. think trolls are not going to try to read my book. >> where did you go to school? for college. >> i went to ucla and i'm now here at usc is a master of fine arts students. i graduate next year.
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>> patrice is our guest, when they call you a terrorist is the name of the book. first call is for more florida, your tv. >> thank you for taking my questions. in your response when you thought that all lives matters is a copout and i can understand, i'm a white female and 50s and coming up to the civil rights era seen the abundance of racial divide and hatred that took place that doctor king and others worked hard to try to stop, going through all that i feel like there's good and bad and all people and not trying to
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minimalize the black lives matters movement at all but understanding there such deep-rooted hurt and pain that may be there's still that mean to try to get back at somebody and maybe if there's bad things that will always happen or will we try to hurt somebody back were the only ones hurting ourselves. >> i think that's a great point. i think you've seen a nonviolent movement dislike king used to try to talk about the issues of racism in the country. we try to intervene in the long cycle of ignoring what's happened black folks.
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what you seen over the last five years as young folks" showing up on behalf of our communities making sure it's not business as usual. >> my question is whether or able to watch the entire trayvon martin call. >> why do you ask that question? >> i was able to watch it. came to the conclusion they were not able to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that george zimmerman committed murder. >> okay. >> yes, i watched a lot of george zimmerman videos. the bigger question is how is it possible that a 17-year-old could be in his own neighborhood and end up dead. george zimmerman wasn't dead.
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we don't know what happened. but we know someone lost their life. there is the legal term murder, we can call that legally but he did kill someone. the fact that there are no consequences is an unfortunate not just for him but we should note that if someone kills someone no matter their race they could be held accountable just like everyone else. >> was this data's of the flandreau castile situation? >> there are no indictments for the police officer. we seen this no indictment and it's a blow to families. the families that not only lose their loved ones but it's tarnished but think about philander worked at a school and
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had children who loved and cared for him. it's a blow to the culture you live in feet and see people how to accountable for the harms they commit. >> i wanted to bring up an issue with respect to the drug war and african-american politicians who were very pro- and extremely harsh if you been watching this it seems the narrative has changed. there's a book called the new jim crow are with the white politicians and there's no politician he wasn't just african-americans, not all were
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supportive but clearly there was prominent politicians for these drug laws seems like people don't want to talk about it as being a contributor to these drug laws that got past. i think it's problematic if you have any history to this. >> that's a great point. there's an author who i'm not remembering right now but hopefully i can get and pass it on the called out elected officials black officials in particular who were harsh on drug laws and who contributed to mass incarceration. there is a generation of women who not just ignored but
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perpetuated the warrant trucks. came from white and black politicians. came from people who are supposed to protect families and instead left us formidable. >> was that james foreman. >> when they call you a terrorist is the name of the book. terry is in oakville, washington. >> thank you for what you're doing. i'm a black african-american men and like to know how i could be a financial help to black lives matter i want to see how i could be a financial help to your organization. >> that's a great question. you can go to reckless a black lives matter.com and as you've noted seen there so fake black
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lives matter accounts that stole money from people, that is not us. the correct address is black lives matter.com. there's a donate button that you can go to our website. you can go to social media were verified on twitter and on facebook. we have been instagram and you can find the official account there. thank you for bringing that up. >> you talk about another organization of dignity and power now. >> is started here before black lives matter. i started that in response to the very serious scandals inside the los angeles-sheriff's
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office. the tortured people inside the county jails and i started this because american civil liberties union sued the sheriff's department and i wanted families to come talk about our families. i started in 2012. for one year we rallied and met with elected officials and we won the 2016 officially it took us four years to win were still working with families who have lost loved ones and also families who have loved ones die inside those jails. >> maggie from texas. >> hello. it's an honor to speak to you.
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i don't know anything about you i'm so grateful i was inspired tacoma in oh i'm a mother. you say this happen to your brother and unfortunately is going on with my son. i'm glad your voice for us. i appreciate you my son has written some stuff over the years and i'm sitting on his book now and reading them. i thought i would tune into this and while, what an inspiration your. i don't feel like we have any control over the color for the
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tower born in or any of those scenarios. of a mexican my son is half black -- anyway i moved on tried to run away the part where he didn't even have a town. needless to say every situation is different i understand that. i am not prejudice i just don't understand ignorance. glad you're solid in your foundation and god gives us a voice in any color. thank you. >> i was making in texas. >> thank you. i'm sending love to you and your family.
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i know how hard it is to have someone inside a jail or prison. i hope you getting the support in the. >> in the state of california human being is killed by a police officer roughly every 72 hours, 63% of those killed are black or latino. the next call is marion and lake michigan your book tv. >> hello. i'm a 72-year-old retired english teacher. i noticed some old classics only found in the colleges are the older textbooks. the first one you cannot find in a modern textbooks, you have to go to an older anthology.
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the second is uncle tom's cabin was originally complemented by abraham lincoln when he shook the lady's hand and said meet the lady who has revolutionized the country. the other classic it no longer in modern textbooks is classics like my antonio and i'm just saying that old classics are not found in modern textbooks and i'm wondering if that's contributing to narrow and terrible situations you're
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talking about. >> okay. any response? >> i think it's so important we have asked to literature. my earliest memories are of me learning to read. i think it's a good point that we have to make sure literature from all different type periods are available. >> to agree that uncle tom's cabin is a classic? >> it's a classic. consider necessary classic? i don't know i read it i don't know if the teaching and anymore. we have to evolve with the times. we have to bring a new literature for people to read. i'm not sure uncle tom's cabin is a necessary read anymore. >> was there certain incidents
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that caused you to become an activist? >> opposing cleveland high school and was reading audrey lowered i was reading beverly tatum and i started to have my own awakening of how i was living in the conditions i was living. for the first time you feel like it was my fault to my families fault that we were poor. there is a system in place that per picture perpetuated the harm and violence that we experienced. that's what was happening for me. >> back to the book where we could see other laws were race-based still have a hard time accepting drug policy as race policy and war on drugs is the legal response explain.
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>> so much of the silver rights movement was about survival until revolution. what happened quickly was the demise and tearing apart of a powerful movement that impacted people in the 80s and 90s and it impacted the ways in which i would understand that time what were seeing now is a resurgence of a movement trying to take care of what they're trying to do 30 or 40 years ago. >> a this calling in. >> hello. i have two questions one is a
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statement and a question as far as flint of castile in situations like that i question if these are trained so much to dominate that sometimes they need to be listening more working with the actual situation. we need to move towards that model. the other thing is that i saw the civil rights live on tv when i was a kid. i looked at the black lives matter marches on the ones that don't want to the freeway is sometimes thought of joining them. but as a white woman i'm really not sure if i would be welcome and safe because i'm a little timid. i would like an answer on that
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place. >> i think the way they are doing this to dominate. it's incredibly patriarch and it's about pure punishment it's about seen people and believing their suspicious before anything else. as far as jordan in the march everyone is welcome. it's not just for black people. it's a fight for all of us. we should all want to make sure fellow human beings are living healthy and strong lives. we see it as an opportunity for the country people across the world to change their attitudes towards black people. >> mary is on. >> hello. i'm really happy to talk to you.
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i noticed there were all males calling in the now many women are calling in. have you thought about developing some kind of curriculum where you can work cohesively with schools and local police departments especially in oakland? a lot of our chapters have developed curriculum. read chapter based organization so we have many chapters to develop curriculum for their own local jurisdiction. we have thought about what it would look like to have the conversation with different government officials. >> that color was from oakland. the forward of your book is by angela davis who lives in
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oakland. how did you get to know doctor davis? >> i met doctor davis when she was doing the speech for an event i was being honored at. when i was 24 years old. . . so she was doing a speech there, and i got to have dinner afterwards with her. and then i met her again a couple years later when she was a judge on a panel that i was also being honored. and we built a relationship and have built a mentor/mentee relationship. i appreciate her work a lot, obviously. i have so much gratitude for her, and i asked her to do the forward for my book, and she said she'd do it gladly. i thought it was amazing of her. >> host: again, the web site for black lives matter? >> gue >> again the website? black lives matter.com on
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facebook twitter and instagram. >> here is the book by one of the cofounders of the black lives matter movement. >> a couple more hours of live coverage from the l.a. times festival of books. cap next authors talking about history including howard blum go to speed 23 for the full schedule now we go back inside for our next panel. [inaudible conversations]
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>> good afternoon it is great to have a such a large crowd here. i am the l.a. times alum i have a website and i have started writing for a very fine magazine that has been put out from ucla called blueprint it is only about 1-year-old if you are interested in public affairs lookup blueprint. our authors today are deanne stillman, who wrote the book blood brothers, tee5, author
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of inseparable. and steven ross who wrote hitler in los angeles. they tell their story to the characters who were little known at the time through them they talk about american culture and society and politics tell us lessons and teach us things that would be of value to enlighten us even today in the air of donald trump. hitler in los angeles by
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steven ross a finalist for by a pulitzer prize in the history category. [applause] that is an honor subtractive the not see -- the nazi campaign from world war ii you tell much about los angeles and the hidden stories of the effort to capitalize on the depression to create the nazi state as hitler did parading aroundel hindenburg park, trading with guns in the santa monica mountains and you tell it by telling the story people that were unknown then pretty much and are now unknown.
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but in her book madeleine albright warns of fascism in the u.s. under trump. do you see a parallel between those times that you wrote about and the times of today? >> one of the lead lines of the book that we use in advertising that i thought captured the spirit is it's a story of what do americans do when hate groups moved to the mainstream and the government seems complicit? if the story is true and is as important then as it is today and i think there is a parallel because the ultimate take-home is what do you do wax. >> remember in charlottesville the neo-nazi and white
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supremacist were chanting the jews will not replace us in 1933 not just to pearl harbor but the end of world war ii virtually every month somebody openly called for death to the jews there were sermons being preached shall we kill the jew? thinking they are bad today they were worse but the point is that creative men and women who went undercover to join every nazi and fascist group understood that democracy requires constant vigilance. it is not enough to sit back to treat american politics as though it is a game show and risk their lives to stand up against hate and to lessen
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the parallel between the past and present doesn't mean you should go undercover to become ahr spy because three of the spies died under suspicious circumstances i'm convinced two of the three were murdered but the lesson is everyone can stand up to hate because here is where the president and i disagree there are people on both sides. [applause] >> thank you. blood brothers by deanne stillman your history wasn't hidden in fact they were two of the most famous people in america during the frontier days with buffalo bill cody and the great indian chieftain
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sitting bull. let's talk about the history of these two men but particularly what is the books connection to standing rock? the last great confrontation of not too long ago between the indian tribes and the white establishment that had taken away their land? sitting bull was assassinated at standing rock and that resonates today in the same place by what happened there in 2016 so what lessons can we learn from the story of these twot men that influences our lives today?
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>> william cody started the wild west show in 1883 the indian wars were winding down sitting bull and his people fled america and had gone to canada and he was considered a hostile. he and the lakota had the great victory at the little bighorn pastor was killed sitting bull was blamed for it and then became public enemy number one although he didn't pull the trigger so when he returned in the 1880s is people returned because the
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buffalo were killed off and acadians were under pressure by americans to send native americans back here to their homeland he was a huge celebrity just like buffalo bill they were two major icons of that area -- era and still are around the world. people were known for their traveling circuses including buffalo bill who cooked up his plans for the wild west show in a barn of all places original ripped from the headlines type of guy. from the planes and killing bbuffalo and rustling bears with his commissions with native americans then head back east and put the episodes on stage he was in a bar in
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brooklyn and cap just cookedho up the idea and said get sitting bull. so there were negotiations and by then he was living a standing rock and sitting bull was under the supervision of the army major who became a nemesis of his and he had to get permission to leave the reservation as all natives did but he had to get permission to join the wildlifed a show. the thing that tipped it over her that convinced the army major to give permission that annie oakley had joined up with buffalo bill and they had met at a shootingg exposition prior to his soaking up and he was impressed with her
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shooting skills and he said he wanted to meet her and they became friends he soon gave her the name little ms. sure shot essentially he branded her so she was in cody's show and he felt comfortable she was a member and cody offered him a very good deal he was the highest paid performer in therfor wild west and they agred that sitting bull would travel and he brought his entourage and during his four months with the show often he would get top billing as they went around the country at the end of the four-month period sitting bull became homesick and wanted to return to standing rock one of the
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things he wanted to do in the show was to confront the president or the grandfatheran face-to-face to ask how come you betrayed my people and that meeting never happened although cody did get to d.c. having meetings with other officials so he returned to standing rock and when he departed buffalo gave him a horse that he wrote in the show as a gift and this was a big deal because horses were stripped from the tribe they were not allowed to have horses because that meant freedom. five years later when sitting bull was at his cabin standing rock there was a plan to arrest him which essentially translated into trapping him
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and the horse that cody had given sitting bull was outside the cabin as the bullets were flying and then the horse started to dance because it was trained to do so do the dance at the sound of gunfire while in the wild west so i found out about that while i was writing a previous book of mine called mustang and the image haunted me for years because the horse that sitting bull road in the show and that you were partners under this weird alliance is dancing a sitting bull is killed was his apocalyptic movement on the reservation i wanted to understand and find out what forces brought the two men
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together and then with 216 the standing rock and during that time the descendents of calvary veterans who served out the little bighorn and sitting bull's ancestors came to apologize to the elders for the t government's role in the betrayal of native americans. and that is something that happened during the protest a few years ago that didn't get much coverage but to me that still speaks volumes. i think we are at the point in this country it is starting to reconcile original skit sins against native americans and we see that with trumps
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policies which to me is the attempted endgame. >> tee5, your heroes are not hidden. but they are very well-known as siamese twins who are american legend part of our language today and used all over but you don't deep to find out the true story about these brothers you have demolished. types as did another character who i grew up with and who shaped my view of asian americans detective charlie
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chan. are there lessons in your research and study that provides lessons for us for a nation struggling to deal with race? >> thank you. yes. i can think of two ways in which the way my book is related to ongoing current issues how to look at the other or how to deal with immigrants and the other way
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is a freak show the 19th century when there is that direct connection between pt barnum and from that age of that, lottery and there is a directem link so before my book was officially published a few weeks ago i wrote in op-ed piece in the wall street journal but i begin with comments on trump that every time i mention usc just call him the orangey menace. [laughter] so when the orange menace came to california he talked about
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the invisible wall and to sit and compare immigrants to try to climb over as professional mountain climbers so that was nasty rhetoric for him to continue to use even in a sarcastic way but there is a grain of truth that legal or illegal so to overcome tremendous odds even if they were professional but that was a segway into the story because the mountain that they literally had to climb they were born in thailand that was
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a band of flesh 4 inches in length and were discovered by a, traveling businessman who is a ship captain they were brought to the united states as as freak show but they lived with the owners for a few yearsav but then they were intelligent human beings they managed to break free so they could work for themselves and then made a lot of money and then they settled down in a remote area in wilkesboro so they would required emergency physician even though they
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were theoretically against gettingg citizenship but oddly enough through 1952 the white free person and you are not eligible for citizenship so that was a mountain they had to climb but to make it m worse they managed to marry you white sisters but they had to convince white sisters for well-to-do farming family and swhat does it take to convince them and the parents and the whole nation at the time. but they could produce 21 kids
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altogether. [laughter] i had an interview on fresh air and she kept pestering me with that question how they did that. [laughter] it is called the hidden story. [laughter] i will not share the spoiler. [laughter] but there is a balance because of the discussion it really flew in the face of victorian america but they would tell you that era known as moral earnestness that ultimately we are human beings. so it is always there.
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so there is that aspect of how they overcome and then later on and that they used to be treated like slaves and now the table r is turn now to say the great humanity when they were persecuted and they became the persecutor so that is a strange term in a way to look at others and now suddenly the table was turned so the war broke out and they were staunch confederate supporters they were from north carolina and they owned slaves they owned 32 slaves and they would send their son to the battlefield one of the sons went to the battle and
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was very fond of horses because that gave them freedom and he was shot out of the saddle and one of the battles he did not die but he was wounded but the horse came back so the parents thought he died. so i was very interested in exploring the asian story in the civil war because there were asian soldiers fighting on both sides what makes my research even more interesting is they would change to make it almost impossible to track down and identify if you change her last name and some of the soldiers we know after
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the war they could not get the attention they deserved and one guy had a problem with his eye the doctor examined him just to verify if he is eligible for the pension he said the poor vision has to do with your race so there was a lot of twist and turns it isn't a black-and-white story at all but that is something i want to emphasize. >> what was los angeles like in the 30s and 40s? reading your book i get the picture not a small town but certainly that the nazi always meets in the neighborhood bar
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or the cafeteria and they had their rallies at the park. >> yes now it is 17 miles northeast of downtown los angeles also known as hindenburg park it would00 attract 150,000 german and german americans in the 30s the largest group in the city and the not c's took control of the german-american alliance through corrupt deals which was the umbrella group for all terminal groups and a very substantial treasury and by 1938 we had not the summer camps 17 miles northeast of here were you boys and girls
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tia taught the principles of national socialism every summer now as mark twain we wouo the pacific but during the 30s and 40s we were the most important city america nott they called you your butt los angeles that was the most important city for two reasons , the most powerful propaganda machine in the world, hollywood and hitler and his vice chancellor of enlightenment and propaganda, something the trump administration could do now. [laughter] they believed one of the
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reasons they lost world war i was because of the powerful propaganda coming out of hollywood and the british film industry so they set that counsel to stop hollywood from making any anti- nazi films and they felt that would keep america neutral for as long as possible. the second reason the not c's chose l.a. that we were a city of hate. southern california is where a lot of the hate groups sprung up and i believe long beach had one of l the largest collections of kkk activists in the entire country they learned that from the spy reports because my book is based the actual spy reports that the spymaster recruited all these people and only one
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jew. everyone else wasus a question not just men reported back on a daily basis and those are all typed up in the library speciall collections and now going down to the docks in san pedro they did not mind bringing in the secret agents because the mayor of new york he is italian but also half jewish his mother is jewish he was an ardent anti- nazi to make sure the ports were closely guarded but the ports of los angelesor were not so
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talk about going on the board of the ship to see the ship captains take packets of money secret orders and spies coming in from the ship later we know the gestapo was sending spies and also the propaganda that was illegal coming in through los angeles then into the country. >> during the same. , los angeles was the home and the birthplace of the liberal movements to end poverty in california and a candidate for governor the home of the townsend campaign and was the inspiration for social security and where the germans were well-known and not so
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well-known the german refugees fled so there was a strong liberal tradition welcoming immigrants. how did that square with the nazi? >> they were way outnumbered by the conservatives they were fascists. they were the real fascists. they wore the black shirts in the city and in america they were called the silver shirts they wereup more powerful at this time than the others and one of the biggest battles is to shut down hollywood liberalism so to jump ahead ask yourself when you ask how did they start the hearings after the war? or civil it was the brainchild
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of a congressman from the lower east side who had been to germany in the late 20s and had seen this and has seen them coming into new york and he was scared to death he wanted the house committee on un-american activities to investigate not see in america and of course it was hijacked and eventually became anti-communist but the war had just ended we have the atomic bomb, we know the soviets are trying to get the atomic bomb so where do they hold the hearings? los alamos? new york to deal with a nuclear physicist? no. they come to hollywood to interrogate and to terrorize the actors and producers and directors. by the way most of whom were jews and they are anti-semitic
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as well as the anti- left campaign so 1930s los angeles conservative and the right wing overpowers the center and the left. >> that is very interesting. by the way if any of the panelists wants to chime in with their thoughts, feel free it is as much a conversation as much as a formal program. standing rock amid everything, and me being an abscess of media freak i like trump actually i turn them thing in the morning.
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but standing rock got some play. but was it really after center of what should have been an important debate or was it lost in the crowd? >> you mean the coverage? >> public outrage,. >> as i was saying it was a very big story and rightly so but as i said before, toto me the really big story that has come out of standing rock is the spiritual shift that seems to be going on in the country as a number of descendents of armyrm veterans who fought at the little bighorn and now
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here are the descendents returning to standing rock 100 years later tore apologize for the indian wars and the need of betrayal and that is a very significant thing to me in my opinion that side didn't get much coverage. there was an apology and they accepted and gave a statement and said the land belongs to no one and that is the focus of my book and the role that played inn america and what it means to the various tribes to live there cruising when -- including the white and red men and a women alike so that is what we should be focused on
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is the spiritualri underpinning of what happened and how that shakes out over time. in the old days when the calvary showed up that was trouble for native americans and that isn't happening anymore. but to your question of comments for my other panelist i do have a question for yunte huang we both write about brothers and you to stephen my title is blood brothers they were not related by dna but they formed a strange business partnership in spite of that there was a very unexpected friendship both had crossed
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fast chasms to make that happen in the publicity photo taken in montréal looking off into the future and that became a very iconic photo that could suggest any number of things you want to read intony that so to examine this metaphorical brotherhood going on inside of the wild west show where they were working together to re-create what was vanishing but of course the native americans in his show were not there by choice essentially they were prisoners of four so i am not
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comparing all the cast members of the show but they did have that sense of brotherhood through the shared history and all the blood shared on the great plains with all of the bloodied battles they participated in. and yours were literally joined at the hip and could never get away from each f other which is a little different situation but that brings up concerns from your book and then steve talks abouthe gray areas under the banner of war these are things we deal with today as well of what divides us and candies divides be crossed? >> speaking of blood brothers
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they were joined together for god sake the holy grail of medicine 19th century the doctors were fascinated there was an autopsy after their death and the one thing about their story for me is really about brotherhood and sisterhood really what it means to be a human being. human always means more than one. they did everything together including making love or going to the bathroom or whatever or eat or sleep one of them is a heavy drinker the other is not so when one drinks there is a greatte line that said these two brothers when one brother
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drinks that gets the other drunk he is physically drunk but not morally drunk. [laughter] but on the other hand the one who was a heavy drinker died first in his sleep and when he realizes his brother just passed away those last few hours was an existential crisis for him and now he became alone without his shadow now he realizes there is no shadow anymore and something iset happening. so literally as blood brothers but metaphorically in the sense that is a story i want to tell that not many people this but north carolina where the twins eventually lived in w settle down was also
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the birthplace of andy griffith so mayberry is exactly about the twins think of the american brothers or those freakish asians that were abnormal and andy griffith of course it was a whitewash show with those racial tensions that was happening in their town inon greensboro when the show premiered in 1960 during the student citizens at the lunch counter. so i spent a lot of time researching and i camp out and their farm is still there.
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it has been turned into the mayberry campground. [laughter] so i made a stupid mistake to rent a car and drive there to spend the night and the manager who is one of the descendents of the twins said how big is the rig? i have a rental car. [laughter] so i spend the night i am chinese i am concerned about the stories but i wanted to get a sense of how it felt and what you hear in the temperatures and walking around, on the one hand but all the signs say mayberry. barney fife. everything is mayberry. so there is a great book written that said something of
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the tyranny of the normal anti-american normal like o andy griffith but really deals on top so in that sense it is strange between brothers with the american culture is made. >> let me pick up on two things that you said the importance of place and the other is how do we overcome these divisions. on the importance of place it goes to the question of these groups in los angeles? yes but one of the things i did in the opening front pages of the book at one point my son, this is where tuition dollars go to work for you, my son and my daughter were editors for me and my son said i need a map because we have
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to visualize all of this. once i started to create a map with my colleague when you open the book it is a two-page spread of not seeing fascist l.a. once they started to map the main groups then i realize the story was even more frightening because you have a swastika for all the not see associations and then the fascist groups all in los angeles very patriarch sounding names like the american nationalist party and then for the jewish groups and if you look at downtown i could not fit in all the fascistt groups one was completely surrounded with the
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blue symbol on the roosevelt building surrounded by a c of red completely coming all the way down to the border of this campus and if you go up vermont around 28th street now it is union theater which is now the continental theater where the not seas could go and walk into the theater and give the owner of ohio hitler salute and as the movie was shown scream out anti- somatic statements they couldn't do any other theater in los angeles. so how do we overcome hate? whether race, ethnicity or religion? one of the questions i get asked when i am on the road talking about the book is you
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tell a story on the major spies except christians how do they feel about working for a jew in the jewish campaign? but they never saw it as a jewish campaign they sought as an american campaign virtually all spies were world war i veterans and they knew a group had come onto american soil to los angeles and was preaching hate against jewish americans, black americans and catholic americans. what they understood is everything that came before the-was an adjective and the only thing that matters in this country is the noun, american. they felt i'll have to love every jew or black or catholic but they are the countrymen
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and i will not allow another group to come into our city or our country and threaten them with death because we are all fellow americans. [applause]n >> we will ask for questions from the audience our authors will be available for signing their books signing area number one so that will give you a chance to buy their book and talk with them and ask more questions. do we have any questions from the audience? they will bring the microphone to you. >> i am curious if you
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explored something in your book of course at the time of this not the incursion in los angeles you had tens of thousands of innocent japanese-americans being incarcerated for no other reason than their b race so they are basically innocent and incarcerated were the germans the white germans were guilty of trying to serve the government do you try to explain this bizarre situation in the book? >> not really because the bulk and that par harbor what you describe happens after pearl harbor. but the nazis were rounded up at the very beginning the leaders of the italian fascist and a suspected japanese spy
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were in fact all rounded up by the fbi but the difference is almost all of them the germans and the italians the major leaders were let go the two major leaders were kept in jail until about 45 or 46 and the other until 47 but the main difference is the rest of the germans were let go. it wasn't just the leadership but everybody else. i know my story ends 45 the group that started the spiraling call themselves the community committee renamed themselves the community relations committee the associate spymaster made it his mission after the war to turn what was once a spy operation to protect jews into
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a multiethnic multireligious tolerance group and he is one of the founders of human rights religious tolerance movements of the many different names it goes under in the united states because he was very upset by the persecution of the japanese it was sheer racism whether they were dangerous or not therefore they were inherently dangerous. >> i want to ask in theer late 30s there was enormous immigration with literacy and so forth from germany then he lived a long sunset boulevard.
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was there any interaction between these groups of the germans and the jews of the high class the horrible people? >> two groups of germans were coming in germans and austrians and they did integrate into hollywood but they were told they pretty much stayed to themselves and had almost nothing to do with the jewish groups. they were high german family i come from a polish polish jewish family married into a german jewish family and there is aer difference. [laughter] theree really is. >> i think it is interesting
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that everything has been turned into show business but i think that is part of all of your books could you comment on that? >> if you take out the wild west show from american history there is no show business. seriously. buffalo bill invented it in a way. there were other traveling circuses but he made it into something, he made american history into something spectacular he mythologized our stories inside of this traveling show he cooked up by re-creating milestones in american history of course from a white man's point of view but i do get into the dark side of all of this but
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america lives in the wild west we still live in that dreamscape we are an action-packed kind of country the word freedom appears on our founding documents a number of times and we espouse the pursuit of happiness we can go where we want and that is what was acted out on the plains during the early decades of the country's founding that is just where america lived and you could almost pay ginny argument taking place now whether about the first amendment or second f amendment or the proposed amendment equal rights, they
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all get back to the concept of personal rights we are free country we can do what we want and that is what cody was re-creating in his show the good guys and the bad guys shoot them up i want this it is mine i will take it okay you can have it. you one. we are outlaws to worship killers. these are american icons some of them were great somewhere evil. but the scenario plays out in every tragic story we see coming out of high school today or any number ofs other places so we are stranded in this dreamscape and i think that is the conversation that needs to be had but your comment a little more specifically but hollywood
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would not do this without buffalo bil bill. it came right out of his show without buffalo bill there is no westerns and we are still figuring out how to tell those stories today. and to see a lot of different versions coming down the pike in recent years. >> there was an ugly freak show in those days as they begin the to or through new england and the south and so to refer to that briefly doesn't that characterize what we see on television today?
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>> before the rise of the big circus of pt barnum style but they weren't entertainment until the rise of t barnum because he came along to see the rise of the freak show in the age of jacksonian democracy the americans got their first lesson to give you an example one time in arizona they called and said we need more pt barnum he is about celebrating while he steals your money. so that is what was the so-called fake news so he would say something then he talks to the newspaper editor
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and then with a flock to watch the show then he turned to another newspaper so then the other newspaper writes an article and they get into a media fight and people thought really? that wasn't real so they went back to take another look and paid again. [laughter] so this is thee assumption actually he is very shrewd that he realizes it is a con game because they are training how you imagine the other person so in a sense was a politician to win the confidence and the trust and that is very t much alive because pt barnum was the purveyor almost like the
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founding father like giving up to the beauty contest or the beauty contest for instance or those for reality tv with the freak show. >> i was thinking both that all three of you are basing your work on sources so is the media an accurate source and is itat now? then? is there a continuum of how much you trust the media and which do you trust? >> i have an extensive bibliography at the end of my book a when you say medium i'm guessing you are referring to
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newspaper coverage? okay. yes. certainly i used newspaper coverage of the 19th century to tell my story but i also went back and read a number of calvary accounts, buffalo bills book, native american accounts, dozens of sources all at the end of my book and i did interview contemporary figures and i went to a number of o museums which have very deep archives in american history including the huntington museum which of course is right here in los angeles and they have been a great source for me with all of my work over the years and
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i consulted various online archives so for all of our books ensure are deeply rooted in pretty serious research. >> there is a difference between media and research newspapers only tell you what were don't know because what you need to know is what you don't know. that is where the hidden history comes in where you find theth stories buried in archives people's memories i read the newspaper so i get a sense of what's going onn but reporters don't know when they are lied to one of the characters in my book is the nazi counselac to l.a. and i talked to the daughter who was born in new york. . . . .

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