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tv   2018 Annapolis Book Festival - Garrret Graff Raven Rock  CSPAN  April 29, 2018 4:09am-5:03am EDT

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thank you. thanks for coming. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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[inaudible conversations] >> good afternoon. welcome to the school in the annapolis book festival. the name is steven and my sons went here and i continue to serve here on the board of the schools. it's great to see them sponsoring this event for the community. i am here today with garrett graff is the author of a book called raven rock. the story of the us government secret plans to save itself while the rest of us die. it's a sardonic book and makes amusing and instructive in frightening major issues of the
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government preparedness for continuity after a war, especially a nuclear war. garrett knows what he's talking about and writing about and he is an historian who is specialized in national security and author of a great book that has come to my class at the naval academy to talk about called threat matrix: the fbi wore in the age of global terror. he also has written for a number of journals but edited two of them. now he has turned his attention to the whole archipelago across this part of the us where there are shelters for the government to seek out in time of rate national emergency. how did you decide you would write such a book? >> thank you. it's great to be back here.
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i think this is my third time at the annapolis book festival and i don't know how the organizers do it but every time i've been here the weather is phenomenal and the key school has a great advertisement for spring in annapolis. this book -- raven rock is the main pentagon's main bunker. it's in waynesboro, pennsylvania. it's one of the three main sites that the us government would retreat to in the event of a nuclear exchange or catastrophic attack on washington. these plans are as steven mentioned collectively known as continuity of government, as the cause plan. when i cover national security in washington you would bump up
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against these from time to time and talk to people would been evacuated to one of these sites on 911. i talked to people who were part of these plans in the bush and obama years and there was a designated helicopter that would find them wherever they were in washington and swooped down and get to the closest landing zone and take them off into the mountains. one morning when i worked at the magazine a colleague of mine brought in a us intelligence officers badge that he found on the floor of one of the metro subway working grudges. this was on his morning commute. he said hey, you cover national security i bet you can figure out how to get this back to the guy and i bet he's having a really bad day at work having,
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as we no, commuted all the way into work and then discovered he did not have the badge to get into the office. i'm looking at it and turn it over and as it turns out it has evacuation instructions written on the back of the badge. i get on google maps and google satellite and start following the out of dc into virginia out into west virginia and then up the side of this mountain and on google satellite you can see the road going up the side of the mountain and there's a chain-link fence, guard shack, and 50 more yards of road and then these massive concrete blast bunker doors and the row disappears into the side of the mountain. mountains totally unmarked and not on any map in it's not a facility that i have ever heard of. i'm like, wow, i've heard of raven rock in heard of the norad
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bunker in washington and we've seen in the greenbrier which used to be the congressional hunger during the cold war with this big secret place for the house and the senate to meet underneath a luxury resort but i had never heard of this other facility. in many realize that there that it's worth going back to figure out what was this world really like and what was the history of it and how did it come about. it ended up being -- i started the book in 2011 when nuclear war in russia very much seems like a history book and then it came out in the last year when unfortunately it seems like a how-to manual of what the government would actually respond to a nuclear exchange in
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an emergency in washington. >> i remember our next-door neighbor when i was a little kid back in the 1950s he was the guy that he did rent a backhoe and dig of hole in the backyard and made himself a bomb shelter. it still in the business. it's not just 1950 relics. there are guys who still are building these. >> yeah, that's one of the things that has been strange for america to re- remember over the last year as we have seen this era of heightened tension with a nuclear armed north korea is that nuclear war actually used to be very much a part of american society and it's something we wrestle with and talk about as a society and culture. as a certain generation they will remember back in elementary
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school the duck and cover drills like if you get under your desk in the elementary school you will be able to survive nuclear war which was relatively decent advice for that particular period of the 1950s and 1960s. you may remember getting in schools brochures like this that you would take home to your parents that would have some useful tips here what you should stock in your fallout shelter and how you should respond to what the warning signals were that you should listen to and how to protect yourself from fallout at home or at the office. this really was part of what i discovered as i researched and embarked on the journey of writing this book this incredibly complex reimagining american society in the 1950s
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when the war first began through the 1950s there were big annual national nuclear war exercises known as the operation alert that were the president and his cabinet would disappear into the virginia mountains to practice nuclear war for three or four days at a time. new york city would host evacuation drills where everyone where the buses the new york city buses would pull over and people would practice fleeing in fallout shelters. the new york stock exchange would shut down as part of the city of portland oregon conducted of full-scale dress
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evacuation of portland, oregon, 200,000 people. 1000 square blocks of the city practiced evacuating out of the city to appoint miles out of the city limit in order to prepare for what this nuclear war would be. part of this the us government had to reimagine what the world would look like after nuclear war. you could probably still spot them around this fading orange and black fallout shelter sign. as is and city halls and what that meant the cold war those were stocked with supplies and those were pre- designated that the government put food water and sanitation supplies and everything you could need to survive for two weeks in the
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basement and in those makeshift bunkers that you quickly to an event of his prize that this included the mass production of the all-purpose survival biscuit which was america's designated food for nuclear war. it was a usda project, a survival crackers, biscuits and manufactured by kroger in nabisco and 160 million tons of these biscuits manufactured in the united states sealed up within tins and 434 biscuits for every ten hidden inside these fallout shelters across the country ready for the sustenance necessary to survive nuclear w war. >> that is too grim. if people have been through a nuclear war you could spring for
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chocolate chip. [laughter] >> so, what i love about the biscuits is they came with an instruction manual. i love the idea of the 1958 some usda employees sitting down somewhere to write an instruction manual on how to eat a cracker. [laughter] the instruction that came with a cracker said every adult gets six crackers a day, 125 calories every cracker. if you're doing that math real quickly in your head that's not a lot of calories. the suggestion in the instruction manual was that you should break that into six separate meals over the course of the day because there wasn't a lot else to do in the fallout shelter so if you broke it into six, one cracker meals that maximized the entertainment
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value of the crackers and then after the two weeks when the crackers iran out the fallout would have, in theory, lessened and then we would flee out of the following shelters and out into our national parks. the idea that the national parks would not be targeted by nuclear war and so the friendly neighborhood park rangers would have sent those two weeks while everyone was hiding out in the shelters eating their biscuits setting up refugee camps across the country in places like yosemite and blue ridge mountains and that you would flee out there and when you arrived you would receive this which is form 810 from the post office and the safety notification card and it's the
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agency in charge of registering the dead and figuring out who was still alive in the united states. the post office been the agency that has the best records of who lives where and so, you know, you would address it to someone you wanted to tell who had survived nuclear war and on the back of the safety education card you would fill out your name and the names of any family members or friends who had survived with you. the government would collect all of these and begin to tally the dead. what is great about it is a postage was suspended after the nuclear war so you do not -- when you go home today you could take the forever stamps out of your bug out kit because the government had thought this all the way through and this was what was so amazing about going back that the government had thought through every aspect of this and the irs had its full plan for how they would levy taxes on america on the
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apocalypse because if the one thing didn't get you the other of life's inevitable's would still be there and so you would still be confronted with the taxes and of course the irs had a text force who sat down and study this and they decided that income taxes or property taxes would be inequitable because people would have had fared differently in nuclear war and it wouldn't be fair to charge you on the prewar value of your destroyed property. we would switch as a country to european-style back tax and a consumption -based tax that would fund the government going forward and every aspect every aspect was bought through and steven and i were talking about
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this for the panel but that's a unique sense of decision-making that the government had. the federal reserve man a bunker in mount pony, virginia that had room for the federal reserve chairman and the board of governors and the key federal staff they had $2 billion in cash which was the amount of money that the government had estimated the country would need in order to survive the 18 months it would take the bureau of engraving and printing to resume printing currency again. the $2 billion was largely into dollar bills. if you remember, in the 1970s when the government reintroduced the thomas jefferson 2-dollar bill it turns out americans didn't want a 2-dollar bill. rather than pull the preprinted
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currency they shrink-wrapped it and put it in the bunker in mount pony virginia and figuring that after nuclear war we would all be a lot less choosy about our currency. and so, all of these plans make total sense on the one hand and then make no sense whatsoever on the other. that's it. >> it has a macabre side and the other parts of the book what you been talking about primarily are like what stanley cooper should have known when he did his homework because it's all real but it's also bizarre. >> yeah, so the most famous line probably of doctor strangelove is worrying about the minded shaft gap that sounds like the movie is literally the most absurd thing that you could think of but as it turns out america's worrying significantly about the mine shaft gap and we
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sent boy scouts out across the country to map the nations caves and abandoned mindset as part of their merit badges in order to come up with the network of the fallout shelters that we would use around the country in the event of nuclear war. >> it all has a camp aspect when you think about it from the 1950s but as i read along and realized no, when there was the attempt on reagan's life john hinckley a lot of this continuity of government swung into being and in september 11 the we renovated the stuff and then i get to the point where you say there are planes now at air force base named nightwatch that engines are on and spinning as we speak 247 ready to sweep
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the president into the air so we can carry out a nuclear war. >> and this is the steel of the totality of the program in these programs would boggle your mind that at the peak across the country there were more than 100 federal government bunkers hidden away for various agencies for various government officials ranging from raven rock, mount leather, the presidents mean bunker in the norad bunker in cheyenne mountain colorado made famous by the movie wargames with matthew broderick. those are freestanding cities built inside hollowed out mountains. capable of supporting thousands of people inside of raven rock
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in mount whether and norad. there were dozens in scores of smaller bunkers hidden around the rest of the country. fema, the agency that runs most of these programs during the cold war and still today, has bunkers in places like denton, texas and thomasville, georgia and bethel, washington, denver colorado and these bunkers would serve as regional hubs around the country beyond the bunkers we had a fleet of navy ships and the uss northampton the presidential floating white houses want a converted aircraft carrier and one converted cruiser and one of them always off the atlantic host sometimes in the chesapeake and sometimes off the atlantic coast through
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the 1960s and 1970s ready to receive the president if he was evacuated by helicopter from washington, staffed with nuclear war officers able to carry out war at sea for months on end. >> i'm glad to hear about this because it sounded like something the aircraft got to do but this is a navy town. >> navy had its role and the air force had a plane or there were four of them known as the nightwatch planes, the presidents doomsday planes can for did 740 sevens in the most expensive plane that the aircraft runs. it's these massive airborne command posts that the president would use for nuclear war and one of these planes is used as we are sitting here saturday in april 2018 and 1 of these planes is sitting on a runway off at air force base fully staffed and its engines are turning in a good turn out take off in less
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than 12 minutes and could rendezvous with the president wherever he is and lead war from the sky and three days at a time. if the president can't make it aboard the nightwatch planes from 1961 until 1992 we kept another airborne command post in the air 24 hours a day 365 days a year for 31 years and there it was known as the looking glass plane. it was three planes, not the same plane flying for 30 years. aboard each of those eight and half hour shifts for 355 days a year there was a one star general who was designated to be at everyone else in every decision-maker and every policymaker on the surface of the planet was killed the one
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star general aboard the looking guess plane would still remotely launch all of the nations surviving's icbms and provide the launch orders to the nations suffering hidden around the world. the. >> these are the pilots that have a patch over there i increase there's a nuclear flash that would blind the exposed i they could still switch over and fly. how do they get me one of these cards? >> this is -- what is so fascinating is diving into this history how quickly these plans would break down. they look look well carefully thought out on paper but what turns out is that the plans were in almost every instance kept too secret to be much use.
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people working in adjacent offices wouldn't necessarily know who was part of these plans and who wasn't. i tell the story in the book of aaron sorkin who was doing the research for what ultimately becomes the american president in the west wing he meets with george stephanopoulos, itasca medications director, and george shows him what aaron first thanks is a bus pass that he carries in his wallet but the nuclear war in evacuation card that tells him where he should go to be picked up by helicopter. it is his get out of nuclear war free card. aaron incorporates this into an episode deputy chief of staff josh lyman gets one of these cards and spend the day or the episode worried about what
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happens if i go and my colleagues to go. onset is a taped episode dede myers who was the press secretary and a consultant on the west wing pulls aaron aside and says i want you to know that this episode is baloney because no one has these cards in the white house and aaron is sitting there like weight, you never knew you weren't going to be saved in nuclear war and your boss, george, was? [laughter] >> i understand that we need to have continuity of government and know about the 20th amendment and who it passes to and so on but who will provide for continuity for the justice system and so on? they are fighting the nuclear war but keeping the domestic piece. >> yeah, this is one of the
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things the becomes so interesting is taking about the way the modern presidency and our modern government has been shaped by planning for nuclear war in ways that we don't really understand. the 25th amendment in the presidential succession act a creation of the cold war and the recognition that the united states can no longer afford to be in a position where we do not know the nex president in line . for the first 150 years of american history we didn't have a very good presidential successor system. for more than 40 years rather than four decades we didn't have a vice president in place. either the vice president had died or the vice president had succeeded into the presidency
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and we didn't have a mechanism for replacing the vice president midway through a term so the vice presidency would sit empty and if congress was out of session and no speaker in the house then it's entirely possible that if something happened to the president we wouldn't know who had been president. you have these moments where, you know, the communication and continuity around the president didn't exist. in 1935 when fdr goes off to dedicate the hoover dam his motorcade gets lost on the way back to las vegas and the president disappears for the afternoon. no one knows where he is, how to get in touch with him or where within a three state radius he might ask to appear. it harry truman in 1925 takes over as vice president and the vice president didn't receive any secret service protection.
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they wandered unnoticed and unmolested around washington on his own schedule because no one could imagine needing a vice president very quickly. as long as you could get in touch with him later in the day, maybe tomorrow morning, how quickly can you need a vice president? that begins to condemn this time and space around the presidency and begins to condense as nuclear weapons arrive in decision-making and communication tool require us to have minute by minute hour by hour awareness of the president and the becomes quickly clear that after how tenuous that line of succession is. we think of the president as a person we elect on the first tuesday after the first monday in november every four years. the office of the presidency actually encompasses about 300 people and so the vice president
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and president and speaker of the house and president pro tem of the congress each of those officials have their own line of succession and sometimes 15 or 25 people long. in the event of a catastrophic attack on washington you would end up with this odd assortment of people popping up across the country declaring themselves the new leaders of the united states. people like the un ambassador or uk for the ambassador to the uk and people like the us attorney for the northern district of texas in the top federal prosecutor in north texas and the head of the department of energy savanna river operation center in savannah, georgia. these are the people who would lead the noted states in the event of an attack on washington. it would be a surprise to most
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americans as you can name any of the officials that i just named like you are ahead of about 99.9% of america. there is this whole shadow government that still exists ready for the attack that we hope never comes. raven rock, mount weather, norad, all still staffed 24 hours a day, through 65 days a year and many of these facilities have been updated and expanded and in some cases pretty dramatically since 911. hundreds of millions of dollars of new communications and staffing equipment and you have these odd tension in these facilities between these incredibly secret classified government facilities and the fact these are regular government office buildings.
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the raven rock cafeteria is run i the choctaw indian tribe as part of a minority government contract set-aside program. at the norad bunker in the center of the mountain if you get all the way inside the mountain there is a subway best food franchise as part of the food court for the staff and in my mind the guest movie part of the book focuses on the food worker survives nuclear war because it happens to be his or her shift that day and keeps making a 5-dollar-foot longs as the missiles rained down around them. >> better than survival biscui
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biscuits. >> exactly. [laughter] >> i will not get into one of these shelters but the liberty bell is. >> this is part of a becomes so fascinating about this is what you learn about the character of a country as they think about these plants. almost every major country has some version of these plans and the uk's system their bunkers scattered across the united kingdom all had boxed china tea sets inside the bunkers does not even nuclear war would stop the british tradition of high tea. canada in their main monger in canadian forest outside of ottawa it looks similar to one of these american bunkers huge multi -- hundreds of people includes a vault for canadian
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national bank gold reserves as well as a cbc radio station that would be the main link to the population. -- >> as well as maple syrup. >> and in the station after nuclear war you just don't want to hear nuclear war so they had a fully stocked vinyl jazz record library that someone sent down and pulled out what are the jazz records that we should have for the people of canada after nuclear war. in the united states you end up with some of these same exercises going on and what are the things that we want to preserve for the future of the country. when we begin to talk about how do you save america in a becomes
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this extra essential question of what is america. are you trying to save the president or trying to save the three branches of government or are you trying to sav preserve e historical totem that has found us together generation by generation. at the national archives they decided that they would save the declaration of independence before they save the constitution which is a fascinating moment to stop and think about what america means and it's the declaration and not the constitution. at the national gallery of art they rank the order of the nation's paintings and figure out what are the paintings that we should preserve in the event of a surprise attack on washington. the top one being the one
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leonardo da vinci that exists in the western hemisphere. at the library of congress they come up with a list of their artifacts and archives and documents so they know that they will save lincoln's gettysburg address before they save george washington's military commission. as you said my favorite detail in the entire book is that the cold war there was a specially trained team of park rangers in philadelphia. it was evacuate the liberty bell. i love again the idea of the park rangers driving off into the mountains of appalachia with the liberty bell singing in the back and arriving at mount weather or wherever they word me and no, no, i swear the crackles they are before we left philadelphia. [laughter] >> the national difference is that the popular first thing to do in beijing is to go around tiananmen square and in the
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shops there are big doors and steps to go down and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people could dive down under the farm if there was going to be a nuclear war with russia or america but in china there was meant that everyone got coverage never had more than about a few thousand shelter. >> and that has become the part of the ark of the cold war for us. the macabre joke in the books title of the government's secret plan to save itself while the rest of us die is that we did start out in the 1950s with these incredibly ambitious plans to save most of the country. we would have the survival biscuits and the backyard paula childers and some of your parents had followed shelters remember neighbors who did from going up in the 50s and 60s. what happened was nuclear weapons got faster and went from
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bombers to missiles and went from atomic bombs to thermonuclear bombs and we went from a few hundred in a few thousand two ultimately tens of thousands of warheads and by the end of the cold war in the 1980s it was illogical to think that any meaningful chunk of the population would be able to evacuate into these bunkers and so the government plan and mission shrunk from what they were doing eisenhower days to this big national attempt at evacuation two of the plans really are still today which is a very small number of high-ranking government officials whisked away to these bunkers. by the way, without their families -- this is one of the things that becomes such a tension over the course of the cold war is this gap between
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what the plans look like in the paper and how we as humans would probably respond to these situations that by the way this is not an unforeseen but a problem that was literally printed out in the first evacuation drill operation alerts 1954 when the president, his cabinet and other secretaries took off for about a rather and the wives of the cabinet state back in washington to play rummy for the afternoon. i found a newspaper article that described it as a very chilly game as the wives waited for their husbands to come back from the nuclear war that they were not going to attend and this becomes something that pops up regularly through the war where
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warren when became's chief justice of the supreme court a young officer comes over from the office of emergency planning and hands him that stephanopoulos get out of jail free card with his evacuation instructions and says i don't see a card here for mrs. warren and the person breaking them says mr. chief justice you have to understand you are one of the 2000 most important leaders in the united states so you get the card. he says i have good news then for the 2001st most important person because i'm not going to evacuate enhanced back his card and never danced to participate. this is still true today. i had someone that i talked to for the book was part of the during the obama years we had
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the helicopter that would find him wherever he was and evacuate him and me i've got two young daughters and people think that i'm going to is that helicopter lands at my daughter's soccer game on a saturday morning or the school that i'm just gonna wave goodbye to my family and hop on the helicopter and disappear and i was like, what this sounds like is when that evacuation order comes you have to be really sure that it will be nuclear war if you going to evacuate because regardless of whether it is or isn't there is not much of a family for you to come home to "after words". >> is a way around the neighborhoonavalacademy some coa motto if you want peace prepare for war and this is clearly preparing for war and maybe it's a constructive thing to prevent war although in another slogan
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could be if you prepare for war you will get what you prepare for. >> i do think that i talk about this in the book there are these fascinating moments where the presidents drilled this constantly during the cold war. every president during the cold war went aboard those nightwatch planes and would sit there and go through a nuclear war drill and they would go to these bunkers and this these executing the nuclear football and it's something the president is trained on before their sworn in so they spent the morning of january 20th before their sworn in going through the nuclear war plans and getting fully briefed on it because at 12:01 you have to be ready to launch nuclear war if that's what comes. what becomes so clear over the
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course of the cold war is that this planning these drills really caused presidents to reckon with how terrible nuclear war actually would be and that the key moment in the cold war like the cuban missile crisis and like the early 1980s of incredible tension in the reagan years that the idea of how bad nuclear war would be in the idea that gone from these drills really has caused them to take a step back from nuclear war and this becomes one of the things the scenes of the book that i like is the way this has shaped our modern world in ways that we just don't imagine and that our modern world today both in the physical world and the mutual world is primarily a product of the nations nuclear war planning
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of the cold war and the internet grew out of the pentagon's desire for decentralized communication system that would control and survive nuclear war and that the interstate highway system and the physical backbone of the united states was originally entitled the interstate and defense highway act. eisenhower wanted to speed the evacuation of urban areas and to speed the nation's ability to move material around the country but the first chat message program, the forerunner of aol instant messenger, facebook messenger, the runner up to her in texting began in a fema bunker as a way for the government to communicate about stockpile limits and conditions across the united states that
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the reason that it started out as character limited and the original 140 character limit was put in place because having worked in government the coders didn't want government people to write memos in the chat programs so they set a character limit on it to ensure that you are only communicating the absolute critical information. >> beautiful. i love the meticulousness of the research and i'm sure the audience has a lot of questions i see a microphone right in the middle there. the book is raven rock and it's got a great logo on the front that shows a tunnel going into the mountain and a really dark looking raven perched over it. it couldn't be more telling and that was the governments on simple -- >> that's the actual symbol for raven rock.
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>> wonderful. do you have any questions besides what the hell? [laughter] >> mike, ray back there. >> this was an entertaining discussion. i wonder what sort of constraints and obstacles you face with a classification of all this material because i can imagine the stuff being classified beyond our ability to comprehend. >> yeah, what is fascinating about this is most of this is declassified now and these facilities in the history of them has been declassified but what is so interesting about it is all of these plans still exist. the book is a history of what these plans used to be and so the question is what are they today and what do we know about
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what the modern analog of these plans are in the answer is very little. the most secret level of these plans in the modern contact is what is known as enduring constitutional government. ecg, it's the wave of the three branches of government would function together after an emergency and there it's only been within the last couple of years that the phrase ecg has been declassified as the we have no sense of what these plans are except we have little hints and suspicions and one of them is that the emergency plans today super empower some incredibly small group of congress and perhaps a small as one member of congress to act on behalf of the entire legislative branch in an emergency and we know this only because we are familiar with the
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idea of the presidential designated survivor and the kiefer sutherland about what happens with the member of the cabinets ends up as the president and congress actually also hides away the congressional designated survivor and under normal circumstances there's no reason why it would be worth saving one member of congress and one member of congress can't do anything and whether 535 can accommodate anything as a separate question but we know that under normal circumstances one can't do anything. there must be some special power that gets vested in that person we don't know that would be in order for an emergency to happ happen. >> i have a two-part question. what event and what kind of event would trigger the
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evacuation like how sure they have to be in part two is is there district make that decision? >> it's an interesting question because the answer is we don't know it could be anything. we have this -- a national emergency is whatever the government declares it to be and that is one of the villa challenges in these programs, civil rights perspective we don't have a good sense of what might and how these powers might be activated and what the appeals process might be for how they could unfold. one of the things we do see in these plans is that the -- there is a central tension at the
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heart of it between the role that we expect of a head of state in the role we expect of a commander-in-chief. you saw play out on 911 where actually president bush did exactly the thing that the president is supposed to do. he was whisked out of the booker elementary school in sarasota and rush to force air force one and disappeared for the day. he received an enormous amount of criticism on the day because what the country wants is rudy giuliani marching straight down to ground zero and pounding his fist and shaking his fist and declaring we will get you back instead what the president did was he was hidden aboard air force one and whisked from one military base to another and did not appear publicly in the united states until about
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9:00 p.m. that evening when he gave a speech back from the oval office. the optics of that for him were terrible that day and yet that was exactly what he was supposed to do and the military and the secret service wanted him to do that and i talked to the pilot of air force one and talk to the secret service agents who were aboard and they said the president wanted to go back to washington from the first moment that we put them out of the elementary school and he pushed all day to go back but it wasn't his call. we did what we were supposed to do to protect him that day. they were like thank god he never gave us a direct order to take them back to washington because we don't know what we would have done if we were
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confronted with a direct order from the commander-in-chief to do something other than what we were trained to do and this becomes this real central tension throughout the cold war of the presidents who would be encouraged to stay at their desks until the last possible minute to remain in command and the deputies who would be whisked off and the actual successors in an emergency. >> and secretary of defense i recall when out of the pentagon and picked up a stretcher and started serving as a stretcher barrier and he's remembered with admiration for doing the wthing. >> but donald rumsfeld stayed at the pentagon that entire day which was something that he received enormous applauds for and bonded him with the military. he literally went to the rubble and helped carry people out of the rubble and he was the exactly wrong thing for the secretary of defense to do and
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it wasn't until about three hours later that the deputy secretary was with text off to raven rock by helicopter. it was far outside the 15 minute evacuation window that we think of these plans operate through the cold war. i think we had time for one last quick question. >> two minutes left. >> the really quick question is do you have any idea of hourly rate for running for making sandwiches inside the facility is? >> depends on before or after the war, i would imagine. [laughter] >> but i was wondering if we know anything about people who were brought out to these facilities now just in case things like -- i have a family member who always misses the inauguration day because he's stuck somewhere and i was
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wondering how many people qualify off-site just to just in case -- >> in round numbers is about 10000. incredibly small and also incredibly large and obviously far more than just the presidents and the cabinet and if the support personnel and military personnel and the key figures from across the government agency. >> it's not a matter of if this happens or if you think this is eminent but sometimes it is just something is happening today and in case it's incredibly expensive as you can see from me talking about this. this is literally a product that has cost hundreds of billions of dollars over the course of the cold war and involves today in
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rough numbers we don't really know somewhere between two and $10 billion a year of black classified spending. >> i love to our conversation because it left out a fascinating detail in this book which is loaded with superb research so thank you very much. garrett graff -- and raven rock. [applause] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]


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