tv After Words Amanda Carpenter Gaslighting America CSPAN July 15, 2018 9:00pm-10:01pm EDT
next on the tv after words, former senior staffer for the republican senators ted cruise and jim demint provides a critical analysis of president trumps political messaging interviewed by s.e. cupp. "after words" is a program with relevant guest hosts interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest works. >> host: first, you are a
republican who didn't support president trump. what was 2016 like for you? >> guest: 26 team was hard. we did have in my view to very flawed candidates and i made the decision not to vote for either candidate because i am a republican but donald trump wasn't tenable for me and so i sat that one out and it is because of what i observed in the campaign as a former staffer to ted cruise is a cnn political commentator and there were certain lines donald trump crossed and on the other side of their was no reason to vote for the democratic presidential candidate. >> where the lines are crossed for you political or were they
personality? >> guest: very early on, his advocacy for torture, that was a bright line when he said i want to go after these people for suggesting that he would instruct troops in the field to do absurd things. my brother serving in the core that to me was a nonstarter for the commander-in-chief and when he started accusing people of just crimes for no reason about any evidence, those are things he isn't fit to be a commander-in-chief and i went so far as writing in march of 2015 and a quote unquote black list of politicians who were endorsing him saying if you are a republican like me who works in campaigns and works on capitocapitol hill that you shot work for these people because their judgment is flawed.
at that point there was no going back. but i don't take it back. we might get some progress in north korea fingers crossed. with the constant attack on on civility, decency, the chaos which is unnecessary, he could be a great president if he would just cut out the nonsense, but you get what you get. >> host: before we talk about what is in the book lets talk about how you wrote it because i was struck by how vivid some of your memories were covering the campaign. you were off to play with your hair still wet. were you taking notes over the course of this campaign with writing a book in mind?
>> the scenes were so vivid because that was accessed hollywood weekend and i just remember every moment of that because it seemed like we may lose a presidential candidate and for good reason had been donald trump brought up bill clinton accuser's. in recounting a part of the reason is because it is going to happen again. like there is a fantasy among people that someday he's going to wake up and be presidential. how many times have we heard about and people say can you believe what he just said. i've been hearing that since 2015. he isn't going to change the people who need to take him on or have to live in this media environment have to adapt. >> host: in reading this, it
was astonishing because i lived it for someone who didn't, you really feel like you are right in their. first explain what gaslighting is. >> guest: the title why you love it when trump lies, gaslighting debris that i explaithe way that iexplain to f someone is on the street, a beautiful day and what color is the sky, you look up into the blue and they say no it's green. you look up again, no it's blue and they create a field of expert scientific studies from the internet and say no, the sky is green and then a cnn debate panel to debate what color it is. so there's two choices, ancome o this goes on if it's either you say okay they have a viewpoint, they have a lot of economic anxiety maybe they see it as
green or you go crazy and start saying no it's blue and then they say look at that hysterical woman. that's pretty much the message. >> host: talk about the steps. they stake out the territory nobody else would occupy. to revisit the campaign against barack obama speaking out politically past the narrative is something that trump always does that makes him unique and stanmake them unique andstand oe else would say. they are always kind of floating out there he doesn't come up with it on his own. when he started getting this started was during the second
term. like this was already over after john mccain shot somebody down for calling him a muslim. it came out in 2008 and we had this whole lawsuit, but then he started getting into it around 2011 saying is there anything about this. and he realized there were a lot of republican voters that were upset that candidates like john mccain and mitt romney wouldn't use them and us at the same kind of saying i got you. so that's one. step number two, i called advance and deny that he starts doing interviews saying it might be something to that. so they are pushing out there but not taking responsibility for it. and he could be in this step for a long time. time. it gets a lot of interviews and does the headlines.
then we all get to debate and at that point he started to control the media environment. and then he creates suspense. i have investigators going to hawaii. there is a report coming soon. this generates more media interest. it's lets say what he has to s say. >> host: and then he selects a detractor. esko they say we think donald trump is lying. a lot of people are just talking about this. i am just looking into it so he starts on anybody that pops up loser, crazy, and so if he can find a target to start scapegoating, that is when it creates that dynamic. >> host: then he declares victory.
>> guest: everyone come and i'm going to have a major announcement and you can look at my beautiful hotel if you want and he essentially said yes to the phone is a citizen, i cleared it up, i am the winner that hillary clinton started it and i finished it, victory. >> host: you asked early on is this what they waited for to defend him from one manufactured crisis to the next. take me back to 2012 the autopsy comes out and they start doing the hard work of getting us back into favor and all of a sudden
is gone forever. >> guest: is going to be a long road. it is his party. i wouldn't defend this but there's a never-ending cast of characters that will jump up to defend him. there's always a place for people to go along with it especially republicans because there's power and influence in opportunity available. i'm never going to work for him or vote for him. there is no glory. i lost out on an opportunity as a republican in good standing with a good work history of ever working in the administration.
if you take the position like i do, that is over. >> host: you talk about people that decided to work for him during the campaign and i want to read how you describe them. most were misfits and others striving activists who would ever survive thnever survive thy professional gop campaign. he makes fun of people that go on tv or defend them and comport themselves to defend the latest things. why did they withstand that embarrassment and scrutiny?
what was in it for them other than the 15 minutes on camera? >> guest: i didn't write it to be mean it's because i knew the people that were going on board, and i worked for the campaign, i worked in office. they wouldn't have passed my vetting and so it isn't like why did that happen, it is a qualification to work for donald trump and it's paid off in many ways. there's opportunity is available, fox news presents endless opportunities, so why would people do it if you can get past the lack of shame is easy. >> host: you know as well as i do that people went into that white house and left without a lot of credibility. was it a short-term pain and glory were long-term?
>> guest: i do give people some credit for believing they need good people there to help him which ithem which is a shor. that never works out i know people who'vbut i knowpeople whd recognize. there's people that actively lie for him before the public and someone who may want to work in the state department or something like that. to me that is a big difference, but for me once they have you lie for them, you have to go. many years ago when he was the governor of south carolina he made his staff lie for him saying he wasn't having an affair with his wife, he was hiking on the appalachian trail that he was cheating and made his staff lie. we see them actively lying and caught in a lie. it's not the job of the press,
though you shouldn't when your boss marches you out a that isnt giving the press your side of the story. that is using the taxpayers resources and the u.s. government to y. and that is wrong. >> host: can anyone without having to lie? >> guest: a b. for a.b. for a r two. you can go in there, you are not there to serve the president you are there to serve the country and once he makes you choose you may can fire you. >> host: i want to talk about meghan kelly. talk about how why you say that it was the first major. >> guest: she got gaslit to pieces. if you go back she was the first
one to ask hard questions about the treatment of women in the first debate when she listed off the things he said and he called her crazy. i don't even think that it was about her committee was about getting control over fox news and taking her out, making them pick sides, they compared her to a wild animal bleeding out wherever. they asked for an apology but it never came. do you think before that moment, fox was undecided about the production but it would go in terms of supporting donald trump? do you think that made roger ailes pick? >> guest: i think marco rubio actually, but it went against
one of the top thinkers. he has no one that will ask a tough question like that again. do you think it started because he attacked a franchise personality and even though the network tried to stand behind meghan kelly may be the viewers were trump supporters. >> guest: there's a problem out there. i know there's a lot of conservative viewers the same meghan kelly isn't really one of us. i've heard this many times. because she wasn't as dogmatic as bill o'reilly or sean hannity she did try to be more fair and didn't play the political game all the time and so --
>> host: what do you make of the defense of trump at fox news? >> guest: sean hannity in particular i've written some tough pieces about him for politico among other places. what is amazing to me is all through the obama years, the conservative media was like how dare they be left off the administration. have you watched that show that the? i mean, it's -- at times i wonder if we have a state-run media or immediate run state. >> host: that's become a popular refrain for fox news because at least for the opinion anchors it is very curious about the presidency and what is happening. when he gets into the rough territory they say okay we've got to go do something now and
cut it off. it's incredible to watch. >> host: is part of the effect that trump only goes to the friendly media outlets? >> guest: it's about the fact that he can call in and be so completely unchallenged, the people that like sean hannity get on the phone with him and work on a script for the next day. they say the sky is green. >> host: let's talk about my least favorite term of all kinds, fake news. how did he come to take that up as a campaign essentially? how did he make it so successful of an idea? >> guest: this is another one
of those things floating around. a lot of academics and scholarly types. i don't know what caused it to start happening, but there were all kind of conservative websites popping up and this is before donald trump was getting into it. we get confronted with all the time where som where if someonea screenshot and wrote a fake quote with him about slavery or something crazy that was wrong that people would make it look like he said it in an appearance at fox news and there were essentially hoaxes and i would have to spend hours explaining to people know this didn't happen. here's what he said what do you have to say and then i would have to explain he never said that. so fake news was happening but he co-opted to mean whatever
news he didn't like. we are starting this site of what is fake news and what is not. he grabbed a hold of the term and i think largely benefits of trump more than anybody if you look at the studies put out on facebook. there is russian propaganda made up to benefit trump so yes there is a fake news problem that helps him much more than it hurts them. >> host: how dangerous is it in this atmosphere where fake news is being bandied about at every turn when we do get it wrong? really feeds right into his hands. >> guest: trump challenges the media to be better.
it still has a problem even if you look at what happened with this thing with roseanne and samantha bee and that doesn't get nearly the same attention. so there is a balancing that needs to happen and i wish that trump would force people to rethink that rather than get spun out about whethe of it whes fake news or not. >> host: polling does suggest that fake news attack on the media is working. on the one hand, you do have to deal with the fact that he has able reported, nobody is going to stop him from saying what he has to say. we are forced to live in this
environment and so we do have to do better part of it is because the media does focus on things like the investigation that he is convincing people is not legitimate. so, bear down on , report the f. it is a story. stick to the story. the best way the media can't get caught up in this cycle is to retake their power back. they are so reactive and there is the time when you just do your own story. he is and the story all the time, he is the president but he doesn't have to be the story every day unless you want him to be. >> host: here's something i never thought i would say. let's talk about the white nationalism. you say one of the biggest pawns that he holds since becoming president is a long time flirtation with white nationalists.
talk about how that relationship began. >> guest: when we talk about the fake news and media we can do that without controlling this factor that came to a head in and out of it without a doubt with white nationalist and it first began to pop up when they started going after jewish reporters. it was brutal. >> host: was it before the campaign ordering? >> guest: the largely came out in support of trump. when you watch what they did to a writer like john shapiro it wasn't only vicious, but you couldn't track it. i kind of layout in the book
those that feel comfortable telling people in public with their name and website it is all out there. they will say anything and they do. >> host: when i was covering some of those moments i thought someone must have told him you need these people to win. do you think that it's worse that he sympathizes with them? >> guest: i think that he is a manipulator and anything that can help them he will use if there's any weapons on the field he isn't going to turn it down. that's why you get a comment on both sides. i know he engages in racist
behavior and i'm not sure if he is just playing that which to me is just as bad. >> host: if yo you talk about te origins and one of them stems from the affair when clinton went after the accuser. what did they learn from that moment? >> guest: if you like monica lewinsky has been popping up for. she's been called a bimbo, narcissist, my wire. he invited her into the oval office and somehow that he gave her gifts and somehow she is the one that got sent off for years and he got to keep being the
president, i do know that they guess what the heck out of that woman and so after that, when people learn you can get away with that, that is a big part of how he got away with this. he brought bill clinton accuser's and essentially hid behind them in the debate reminding everybody bill is worse, he did this kind of stuff. i'm not sure that he didn't get away with it, but it did work. how long did she have to stay in hiding or something that did happen that was true that he eventually admitted to. >> host: what i took away from that moment is how liberals and liberal women turn their targets on these accusers which is
startling to remember in this era but when he was discrediting his accusers from the campaign, it did hearken back to that. now you see him making the same arguments saying we want to get the policies this just isn't high on the priority list. >> host: so trump is president now. you talk about how gaslighting is different but still happening and we are approaching midterm in a campaign season of 2020 do you see it ramping up for evolving into something else? >> guest: donald trump gas
lights as an offensive mechanism. people often do these kind of things when they are caught lighting. he picks a target and start making up lies preemptively so it's the kind of thing that will pop back up if you think there's millions of people that voted illegally that is setting up the narrative but he can still use that in 2020. >> host: but we have seen him starting to say about the investigation meddling in the mid-term it reminds me of what he said about the rigged election. he also has the benefit of politicizing the report when it comes out. i think that prevented the fbi from making statements about the investigation during the
election so it does work and it might come out in 2019 but what they are most worried about is that she's going to jen of some wild and crazy things that maybe international. if you don't get it by now, the filter is off. during the campaign committee is athere's an incident with michelle fields where corn he pulled her down and suggeste sua reporter that she might have been a trigger breast and have a bomb in her hand. taking statements like that and lighting it up on a much larger level i think everybody needs to embrace for that.
>> host: you joked him i them ia to go preemptively. it keeps us very busy but do you think there is something more where showing this chaos and confusion and frustration and matt mad -- in the institutions like the free press, law enforcement said he is the only person that can be trusted? >> guest: key is a manipulator playing everyone and when he is in control of all the situations, he is doing this, the chaos is controlled and the only way to mitigate it, people have to grab their bearings and
not let him create chaos over them into the news media, take back your program a little bit. i tell people who are sucked into the eisai turn off your phone sometimes. it's always going to be there. you can take a week off of twitter. i did occasionally and when you get back into it you wil you'llt it's all the same. people calling for th falling fe things again and again and again. >> host: so alternative facts is something that came up. that obama had wiretapped his phone, that was the source of origin of alternative facts. we are hearing a similar claim now where he's accusing the fbi of having spied on him while a
candidate. >> guest: you've got to remember he's been going after the fbi essentially this first day in office after saying what are we living in, nazi germany. he knew something was happening and as soon as he got into office he decided i'm going to start going after the fbi and then you see him saying i fired after james comey in the interview with lester holt i fired him because of russia but there's nothing to it, that is a classic advance an and deny statement i fired him because of russia, advanced that 59 because there's nothing to it. so he has been on this for a long time. i do think this is a little different because the signs of gaslighting. he is subject to whatever the fbi puts out, whatever the investigators put outinvestigats in the defensive position which does make his posture different.
>> host: talk about trump and nixon. since the investigation started people brought up watergate which there are comparisons to. they say this is the biggest witchhunt since watergate. [inaudible] it was the president, nixon wasn't a hero in this story. [laughter] but what is fascinating is the same things that led him down a babad half-life banks have donea bad path and that his hostility towards the press and paranoia about government leaks. it started when they were breaking into offices and it's crazy because that wasn't on his watch bu that he was upset abo it.
what is fascinating is how many people went along with it and the similarities between accident and trump and how they go along with things out of loyalty made an impression on me and in part it's because we traveled some of the same circles but there's a publication called human events. i knew as a talk radio host. refresher, one of the people that broke into watergate and suggested all kinds of crimes to the team including killing a journalist, breaking in, kidnapping people, i mean he is a felon.
i was a parent, i fully admit it is now what you see in the trump administration. they took a little bit of this but don't go down with that shape. i think we should reflect on the history to see how far people will go because they will go pretty darn far in the name of loyalty to a commander in chief. >> host: how do you see the russia investigation going if you had to predict? >> guest: there will be a devastating report and robert mueller into throwing it to the hands of congress. while the house be moved to impeach and may be that while the senate to convict him i don't think so and you have to remember he reassigned once they moved the papers out of the judiciary committee. donald trump has no shame, he
will bear congress to impeach and convict him and i into thatd of brinksmanship unless there's a discovery [inaudible] >> host: do you think that is why rudy giuliani is now pushing in case democrats take control of either the house or the senate? >> guest: rudy giuliani may be a lawyer but he isn't playing a lawyer and that is because they know that this is going to end up as a political fight and so i don't think anyone is playing the game. >> host: you tell the hard truth.
i want to read a longer passage because you describe our relationship with donald trump in a vivid way typically it is a type of manipulation that takes place in one-on-one romantic relationships think of a cheating boyfriend who calls his girly psycho when she becomes suspicious of a ciphertext messages from other women with a woman who convinces her husband the faucet and broken down cars and an ability to live out her dream lifestyle of the rich and famous is all his fault. it becomes a debilitating form of mental abuse victims defending themselves from outlandish accusations trapped in a circular argument and apologizing for circumstances they have no control over victims live in a constant state of uncertainty and lose confidence in their ability to react and become dependent on the gas lighters and are unwilling to object to
statements and actions. psychologists would advise them to terminate the toxic relationship or if it involves a family member limit contact. none of us have this choice becomes to donald trump. he's the president. we are stuck. what do we do. >> guest: there is no assurance to victory. you have to get in the arena with him. in a media environment people say why don't we just canno dono on these programs. you do that and you see the entire media landscape and he wins in that environment and so you have to get into it. i got roughed up during the election. in the national enquirer i was suggested to be having a affair with my former boss and the
president compound toopresidenth campaigns issued statements, i had to clear it up with my employer on cnn. it never happened but i got trapped into this alternate reality. that's the cost. there's no way i can tell someone if you want to do this kind of work here is how you are going to win and come out smelling like roses because he fights dirty. you have to hit him back clean otherwise you get flown into the mud and i think people should look at how james comey was treated when he did his media tour donald trump went after h him. the debate wasn't even about that. who does he think he is doing that media tour. he just gritted his teeth and said i'm going to do this which
is the right thing to do and i've told people and unlikely person that is a model for them. i'm not defending the client i don't think the line of work but he is succeeding against donald trump in the media world because he has his own story to tell he says my client has her truths, donald trump and her people didn't want her to talk about it, they denied it happened and she wants the right to her sto story. he could just quietly filed the papers but he's making himself available showing that he is the commander of the facts and he's going to mess up along the way without a doubt that he is not backing down and so i think people need to at least look at him as a model and say okay you can't feed them to the media
space you can't beat him if you don't meet him on the field. >> host: people tell me and others in the media all the time bite you have to cover everything and you talked about that as well. you don't have to make him a story every time, but this is truly remarkable. what he's doing isn' he is doinl and should be discussed so how do you find a happy medium between not making him the story every time but also getting into the media space? >> guest: part of it is what he says isn't always the story. i keep coming to mind about the border crisis, people being separated from families and it keeps coming back to the debate about what he says that is of
course newsworthy but that is the comment on the underlining story which is the immigration crisis, the policy that children have been separated from their families have been horrible things going on for many years but it's easier and this is why the media goes along with it it's easier just to cover the comments so we have to dig a little deeper but it is like an addiction like twitter, keep giving it to me keep going. >> host: it's very clear that he prefers the politics to the policy. there is always a big sort of theatrical media moment or something he wants to do like the iran deal or the meeting with kim jong learned to cook. >> guest: even the thing with the paris accord, how did we get
into it. barack obama didn't go to congress. why do you expect the next president wil will be done do is easily as it was done in this oo that would be helpful but this gets into the conversation of the media bias would we rather cover the fact that he's ripping it up rather than why it was got into this, to be covered with piecerecover the piecesof the pr rather than the crisis that's been going on for quite some time. >> host: some of the things you say that other people can do outside of the media to deal with gaslighting is left with the outrage. >> guest: let go and let god. i am apolitical junkie but you havchunky but youhave to say okt matters and here's what doesn't and when you are constantly on facebook and checking twitter
and going to your favorite blog is that how you want to spend your time and it does matter and it is important. it's just kind of like saying m.i. getting sucked into this because i want to because it makes me happy or do you just get off the computer and phone and meet with people in your community. social media is a big bullet is easy to scroll and scroll people read the headlines and not the story. i am guilty of it. read the story before you flush it out because you have to take responsibility. >> host: people do today just
want to be reaffirmed in their own beliefs. i get that. how do you convince a fox news viewer to watch msnbc? how do you convince a reader to pick up a call copy of the daily column, how do you convince people to leave their bible? >> guest: i don't think that is even viable at this point. the internet is a great tool and i do think it will change a little bit because we have seen obviously you can write anything but there is a clear difference between accountability and that is a big distinction about the
media subsidence are you getting your news from somewhere that has accountability, editors, copy editors, is there a byline that goes to a real person you can find it if you are going to websites with no accountability that's just written by some written name you need to rethink it or verify it from somewhere else. we can talk about this conspiracy theory that is too good to want to ask the hard question of is this real and who is this person behind it. that is a hard drive to get off of. >> guest: a lot of people say why do people fall for that. they are very helpful. they play a huge role in american politics even since i started doing conservative media
that hillary clinton. how many people have gotten the conversation about have you seen the e-mail, or hillary clinton has parkinsons, you could go on and on. >> guest: i think this is a big reason she was a nonstarter too many republicans. there've been issues since the 1990s and she never tried to confront it. once you said that it materialized. >> host: i think people make a mistakthe mistake of dismissinge conspiracy theory. really those are the people that you have to think about and prepare for a because they are
far more powerful. they are full of media enterprises and i got a taste of this working in the office i think in 2013 when we started getting e-mails about military exercises that have always been happening. it sounds crazy but when people see it rolling into the highways we would get calls we had to say we know what this is, this is stupid but we can't tell people this is the same thing that happens every year because they are scared and so when people are coming from a place of fear you do have to sympathize a little bit and take the time to
explain what's going on rather than just saying you're stupid. that has happened a lot in 2016. >> host: you say every time something crazy happens we think [inaudible] they are so dangerous because nothing is going to do him a man falling for that every time is just a recipe for madness. >> guest: i need to write another book called no one is going to save you from trump. robert mueller probably isn't going to do it, the agency isn't going to do it. you cannot escape the confrontation. people keep waiting for someone else to save them. the big thing i'm hearing now as they are going twe are going toe and impeach him.
okay you think that they haven't done anything to have a successful strategy that's going to influence very likely republican-controlled senate? if the impeach him he's still going to be there that doesn't save you a. they have to get in the game, start pushing out this theory and if i learned anything from the republican primary, it is about the risk adverse people and how uncomfortable people are with confrontation especially if they might lose something or alienate a trump voter, that isn't going to happen. if you don't think it's worth it, it comes down to where the country is going to be. if you don't think that is worth some short-term pain, then you've lost already.
>> host: can it come down to something as simple as some of them on the investigations, but people turn out to not like a trillion dollars spending bill, they turn out not to like some of the trade policies begin being enacted. could it be as simple as policy policies that people are not liking lex >> guest: the biggest threat right now comes down to the two biggest issues and that his budget and a quarter. they supply him with a love of the policy helped that he gets into those are two issues they want help on what they want the border wall and they want a better budget. donald trump said he would never find another spending bill like he did earlier because it made them angry.
if you are not going to deliver on the policy i don't know what is in it anymore so there's a confrontation coming this fall and i will have an impact on whether it is motivated or decides he is a lot of trouble i don't think i can do it anymore. >> host: it's such an important issue for donald trump running. [inaudible] they are saying he will not sign anything that doesn't have a wall and increase border funding. do you believe him? >> guest: though, i can't believe anything that he says. but it might actually hold him accountable. >> host: not just with
immigration, but because it is politically profitable for democrats and republicans to keep immigration broken so solving it means you can't run on it. do you think that he is likely to transcend the ease battlegrounds on immigration between applicants and democrats who thrive when it is broken? >> guest: he can convince them that they are the bogeyman that i came to washington in 2005 and immigration was essential to the conservative base at that point. it's been ripping the party apart for ten years plus. if he can't deliver something tangible, that will be depressing and another budget
bill that will be a depressing in depressing ina way that depr turnout. he is their best hope baca they are going twere going to offer g better or pretend to understand where they are coming from on these issues which will help. so i think the best, the worst outcome if they get the solutions but they will try to probably make them scared to. >> host: do you think that gaslighting becomes the norm and politics. >> host: it takes to power a way that the temptation to go do this now tha but the field has n broken with the very powerful. when i look at the democratic
side, i don't see anyone trying to do anything better or worse it is just kind of a mismatch of whatever. in the celebrity world you see people getting away with it as the conspiracy theories that are absolutely normalized today. you are not an outcast if you say these things. you may lose your job like roseann but obviously they are talked about, they are spread and you can't stop it from spreading. >> host: she didn't lose her job because she believed in [inaudible] my last question, do you think anyone from the left can be donald trump knowing how he campaigned and how he felt with people playing dirty is there
anyone that is prepared to go up against him. i'm not making a policy endorsement or anything like that, but i think of the purple state, the governor of virginia does this operation, they have some baggage to be sure. does he have the personality to go up against trump? >> guest: he has the enthusiasm. i don't know if he can bring together a democratic space and do all that. i don't know anybody that can. they will have a show that is even better than the republican clown show. it's like a traditional person with experience and that is kind of a reach. i don't kno know of anyone and neither does anyone else you
have to be a crazy person to get into this environment. everybody keeps talking about when are the republicans going to stand up and do something. that guy at the convention where ted cruz said vote your conscience and even republicans like you said why did they even come, they came to the convention, drink the wine and pete on the carpet. i think that was better than staying home like jeff flake and john kasich. i still think the party is worth fighting for but that is what it would take to do this, and i don't see anyone with the nerve to do that again. >> host: thanks for joining me. "gaslighting" is a great book.
booktv visited capitol hill to ask members of congress what they are reading this summer. >> first of all i just finished a book and it is like just last week it was enjoyable called dead weight. the last crossing of the lusitania which is one of the events that led to world war i and the united states getting involved in world war i but it was fascinating i read one of these books previously in the chicago world affairs was one of the big reads. i'm not a big fiction fan.
i like nonfiction but in my childhood i liked bonne fiction and in my adult life i've enjoyed nonfiction, so i like keeping this style of writing and i've enjoyed finishing this and i just started another because the genera general verse president, talking about general douglas macarthur and president harry truman when they were during world war ii the possibility of a nuclear war, so i just started just this past week. i'm excited to read it as well. >> are there any books that you recommend to your fellow members of congress are books that he would return to? >> my favorite book of all-time is great expectation. i love great expectations. i think i've read it three times. i love everything about it. so it's just one of my personal favorites. but as we mentioned before, it was a fascinating read and i really enjoyed it.