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tv   Ben Macintyre The Spy and the Traitor  CSPAN  December 9, 2018 2:10pm-3:16pm EST

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over two years, he hit every state, came back, and talked to president john quincy adams, earn he went people named things after him. so, people in washington said we have to name something every him. how about this park? and so it became lafayette park. >> next timor in washington, symptom by lafayette inquiry, gil klein is a longtime journalist and former president of the national press club and also the author of "trouble in laugh fay quit square, assassination, protests and murder at the white house. ." >> host: thank you. >> guest: thank you. i appreciate the opportunity. >> keep an eye out for more interview from the national press clubs where become bare. [inaudible conversations]
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>> good evening and welcome. i'm the executive director the leavy center for biography is which now in it's 11th year. here at at the graduatester. we have again out 44 fellowships now to work biographers, the fill lowship is now up to $72,000 so it's a really substantial fellowship. and i'm pleased to announce also that we have just gotten the university to approve a masters program in buying aography, two-year degree program, going to start in the fall of 2019. and it's outgrowth of this program here. all very exciting.
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but this evening we're here to listen to ben macintyre talk about the new spy buying aography, the spy and to traitor and we're in for a treat the book reads like spy thriller, and after ben's talk we'll have final for questions and then he'll sign books. also we're passion around a clientboard to people, we want you to give us your e-mail if you're so inclined so we can tell you about our future events. i want to say i first met ben at the lit gary festival in 20 so and -- literary festival and he just published his book but 0 world war ii deception operation that used a corpse dressed up as a british officer. it was trick tale and all true. on that occasion i just lad to
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introduce ben and then he got up and wowed the audience, as he will today, i'm sure. i confess that for some years now, since that first encounter, my wife has wanted me to be ben macintyre. >> she doesn't, believe me. >> i mean she has rather artfully observedded his books sell so much better than mine. >> well, i i always follow my wife's advice and after meeting ben in india, i tried my hand dish want to try my hand at a spy biography. initially i thought to myself that perhaps could i do something on the subject of kim sillby. ever since redding phil by's memoir, my silent war i always lad a fascination will fillby bit i explored and decided
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quickly that i had to smith dismiss the idea telling myself there's nothing new to be discovered that had not been done by countless authors. instead i spent four years writing the good spy, a buying aography of an obscure cia officer killed in by a flute 1983. i had a lot of fun with this project. it was edited shirks point out, by ben's editor at crown books, kevin, who is here this evening, and when its came out in 2014, it did pretty well. but it attracted nowhere near the audience of a new biography of, you guessed it, kim fillby, written by one ben a macintyre. all of this is to say that i have stopped trying to be ben macintyre. ben, i concede the field to you. you are the master, and i turn
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over the rest of the evening to a discussion of your fabulous book, and afterwards we'll have time for questions. >> thank you so much. what lovely introduction, thank you all. [applause] >> bless you. thank you so very much. welcome everybody. oleg gordievsky. he is -- a photograph taken in the safe house where oleg has been for the last three decades, ever since he got out of moscow. he lived under an assumed name, his neighbors have no idea who he is. he particularly since the events of last march in britain, the attempted poisoning, he now lives under very, very tight security. there's permanent god guard with him at all times. in many ways he is a captive, prisoner of history. he cannot leave the house without guards.
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and that is in many ways the way he lived for 32 years. i first met oleg five years ago. i was actually researching the kim phil book that kyle mentioned. because oleg had known a close friend of kim fillby and we got to know each other, and it struck me that although oleg's story has come out over the years in bits and pieces it's known been told in full or using the greaters resource 0 all which is oleg's memory. oleg was trained as a kgb officer to memorize vast amounts of material and he can tell you or he could until recently tell you exactly what it smelled like in a particular room in the basement in 1962. and if you interviewed him again to the same subject a month later he's tell you exactly the same think so. the main resource of this book is oleg gordievsky but i also
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got immediate all the mi6 officers who ran oleg over the years, and they were allowed to talk to me. that is -- never happened before. because mi6 officers sign a life-long oath of secrecy and the official secreting a and there were 14 of them in the end. they all broke the official secrets act, and they were allowed to do so. they were clear my given -- clearly begin permission, the services didn't stop the officers from talking me and that's where the book cops from because its enabled me, i hope to describe the real granular detail of how you iran spy case like this. which would not have been possible without oleg's help. so, most spies don't make an enormous amount of difference. occasionally they oil the wheels of traditional diplomacy. if they are effective they make us safer.
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if they're ineffective they makes markedly more unsafe but don't usually actually al their history. olego def ski is differentment one of the very few i have come across whose information was so important, so straggly -- strategically important that it fundamentally changed the policy of governmentness both london and in washington. a history changer, oleg, which -- these are a whole set of these photographs -- by the end i was seeing oleg every week in the safe house. i amassed 140 hours of interviews with him. the extraordinary thing but oleg is he was born into the kgb. a pure product of the kgb. his brother, you see him here on the right, was also a kgb officer. his father was a kgb officer on the left there a man -- to wedded to the kgb that his
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father wore his uniform on weekends as you can see here. and anton gordievsky plays important par. the signed happy to predecessor to the the kgb and was an utterly defend indicatessed servants to community sties and believed the party was always right. he headsmen some horrible things and i it's pretty clear participated in some very ugly moments during the stalinist purges. oleg had a conflicted relationship with his father, adored him and considered him to be a weak ask vacillating man. oleg was a brilliants student. he excelled at school and was brought up in kgb compound, add kgb food, all his friends were in the kgb. he went to school that was linged with the kgb and eemerge ted top of theclass, the cleverest boy in his class. this is his school s. still hall
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lenin and stalin on it. he graduated number one in his class and then became a student at moscow's most press stick just university, considered the hard vaster of russia. excelled in languages, fluent in german, swedish, danish, and it was while at university that he first got the breath of something slightly different frontal the way he was brought up. he was allowed to read some of the western magazines and newspapers that were brought in heavily redacted and censored but enough there that would get a glimpse of a different world. olegal took um long distance running while he was a student. the reason i show you this photograph is that in many ways, long distance rung is a motif of his life. the decisions he would take over the next 20 years or so were all
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taken in isolation. he took them alone. he was not and still is not the sort of person who really consults with others. he attacks a problem, thinks about is on his own and then reaches a conclusion. in many way i think the loneliness honever long disdance runner is an accurate way of thinking about his life. he still runs a lone. it was while he was on the university track team, and you see him here on the far left. so oleg on the far left. the person second from the right is the person i want to opinion out. someone who would play vary important part. kaplan. still lives in canada. kaplan was a czech trainee intelligence officer but someone with a very different sort of mind from most of the students at moscow's state university. he wasn't exactly a dissident but he was certain lay questioner. and he became a very close friend of oleg's, and between
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the two of them they began to discuss late at night the future of the soviet system. thy were not rebelling. but they were beginning between them to talk about it. now, bare in mind kaplan because he comes into the story shortly. oleg never really considered any other career than joining the kgb. in 1961 he was already effective lay kgb intern, partlies through through father partly through there is brother and partly because there was a recruiting center with the university for the kgb. in 1961, he traveled to east berlin, as a translator really but living in the kgb compound. the day after he arrived, he opened the curtains and witnessed hundreds of bulldozers and thousands of soldiers pouring into east berlin to start building the berlin wall. you see it here under
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construction. oleg was profoundly shocked by this spectacle. it was the first time i think that he realized, very physically, that the world is being divideded into two. coulds. referred be through east german press as the antifascist protection wall to keep out the evils of capital jim. of course it was a prison wall really, to keep the east german population and they had been pouring out at an alarming rate. that what's first time oleg began to real request question the world he had been born into. it didn't, however, stop him from joining the kgb. now, we think of the kgb today as this vast monolith thick, brutal machinery of repression. which it was. but it was also, if you were bright enough and ambitious enough, an elite. it was something that many, many
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people wanted to join. it was the presidenter tan garth. and oleg initially was one of those. he enrolled, he was trained in the red banner institute which was the soviet spy school outside moscow, also called school 101, a completely ins a very tent echo or of orwell's room 101. oregular -- oleg was had a wonderful time and was introduced to he dead letter boxes, contact, coding and most importantly, some that to the russian intelligence services reed e referred to as dry cleaning. dry cleaning was surveillance evasion. surveillance and surveillance evasion, the able to.when you're being tailed and to throw up surveillance in such way that the watchers don't realize that's what you're doing. oleg was a champion dry cleaner.
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in 1965, he began work in the the headquarters of russian intelligence. a rather beautiful build, built as an insurance company building, but it's a most most sinister place. the basement contains a torture chamber. oleg worked on the fifth floor where he was in something called directorat s which ran illegals so two types of spies under russian nomenclature, legals and illegales. legal are kgb officers operating abroads under diplomatic cover. so they would good abroads and pose as press attach shay or culture attache while working for the kgb. illegals, far larger number, are civilian spies given false identities and that implanted around the world. in the is the 60s and '70s and the early '8 so the kgb was
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running literally thousands of illegals around the world, although i'm told there are more illegals operates neglect west now than at any time since then. so oleg roz john was to create fuels identities and inevent people who didn't exist and then implant then in foreign countries. what we really want to do was to father his brother who had already become an he illegal in western europe. that wasn't to be. however, oleg was in 1967 got his beg break, sent to den mark to copenhagen where he was too run the illegals network in denmark, run these undercover spies in copenhagen. copenhagen was a complete revelation to oleg. oleg is a man, was and is a man of high culture, great classical music aficionado, extraordinarily broads reader and he found in denmark that he was able to read and listen to whatever he wanted to. this was not the case, need loss
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to say in the soviet union and he wait as eye opener and he fell in love with dep miracle and had an extraordinary time there. there was no question yet of oleg actually turning against the kgb, all the hey had begun to have doubts be this krill cal moment came in august 1968 when the great reform movement in czech show vac czechoslovakia, gusherring in a new communism, socialism with a human face. in august set 61, the soviet tanks rolled into check slovenia to crush the prague spring. this is a lone protecter in the square. their image reminds be therefore the single protecter in ten men
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square, standing up against the tank. it didn't work and olegal wag scandalized, absolutely furious. actually took it as a personal affront this had taken place and he did something that was with hindsight both very brave and probably quite stupid. he went to a telephone in the soviet embassy he knew was bugs by the danish intelligence service, and he placed a telephone call to his home where his wife was. he married a fellow kgb officer. their marriage was not a happy one. but the called her at home, knowing their home telephone was also bugged. and he delivered a furious harangue about what happened, about what he described as the criminal conspiracy to crush the prague spring. knowing or hoping that this would be picked up by the danish intelligence service. the problem was that it was completely missed by the danish intelligence service, for
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reasons we have never been able to work out. they certainly roadside all the telephone conversations but miss its this important hint that oleg was send e sending wasn't offer to spy for the west but was saying i'm a different sort of kgb officer. however, the danish intelligence service already had oleg under surveillance. these are a set of surveillance photographs which i found in oleg's attic six months ago. he didn't know he had. the taken by danish intelligence from fixed cameras. ...
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gay pornographic materials. they made the conclusion that this was an opportunity for blackmail. one of the oldest and nastiest. they sent a young, handsome danish man to go chat up at a party. he wanted to show his wife. they put him on the mantelpiece. [laughter] so the first two moments when he may have been reeled and failed completely. calling his wife and complaining. he was not.
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defected from czechoslovakia to the west. he arrived in london towards the end of 1969. the reason he deflected was the same reason so enraged. cannot believe this happened to his country. one of the thing they were routinely asked when they arrived in the west, is there anybody else like you? similarly at odds with the regime. for the first time, his name was flagged up in british files. he returned to moscow, he spent another three years in moscow. he was redeployed to denmark. now we are in 1972.
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the reason i show you this photograph is ny six was was waiting for him. the head of the mi six station, a man called called richard, a particularly wonderful figure, he is is really 19 now, one of those very posh, well met englishmen that slapped you on the back all the time. appear to be a lot more stupid than he really was. a fermentable intelligence officer. playing badminton one day. he began a very elaborate courtship. it went on for about a year where they would meet okay shall he, they would discuss doing. it was so subtle this approach that at one point had to note sg help i being recruited.
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[laughter] they could not work out who was doing the recruiting. he was prepared to start producing information for the west. why did he do this? he is always totally driven by ideological conviction. from the start, he did not want to be paid. he did not want this to be a commercial transaction. he believed he was serving a criminal repressive, philistine regime. not burdened with a sense of his own historical importance. he wanted to try to destroy it. he believed he could do so from inside. he began to produce material of
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incredibly high grade. became his closest friends. they really had an enormous amount in common except they were on different sides. he began to effectively -- every week or so he would go through the microfilms that were arriving from asko. he would take them and he would hand them to his controlling officer that would copy them using a special machine developed. the kind of technical -- it is work you would work if q existed running the microfilm through iy would get in print through it.
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some of the material he was producing was of extremely high grade. you see a man who is a norwegian official in the foreign ministry a star of the labour party. the next prime minister for norway. nicknamed the crocodile. really the chief recruiter for the kcp in scandinavia. another was a woman called greta hardwick. she had worked for the kt be for more than 50 years. she was paid an enormous amount of money. a third soviet spy operating in scandinavia. a policeman. joining the security service. he was also a known, he was
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identified as an agent for the soviet union. if you can identify the spies who are operating in your midst, you are way ahead. if the information is too good, you cannot actually use it because if you start sweeping up all the spies, it immediately becomes apparent there is a spy on the other side. instead of doing that, they informed its allies in the scandinavian country, they did have these people in their midst. they were not immediately arrested. going back to moscow. towards the end of the posting in denmark he met and fell love with layla elliott. layla was the daughter of a general. she, too, had been born into the
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kt be. they fell in love. this was going to be a career problem. it was extremely moralistic as far as personal behavior went. haile frowned on. he knew that his career. he said i need an escape plan. some way that i can get out of moscow if i get into trouble. a very few senior officers.
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the ktp officer very closely monitored. the great wall that surrounded the soviet union. frequently able to pass through the borders. this was a convention. it was not a law. he would have to send a signal to alert him that he needed to escape. seen at 730 on a tuesday night standing on the corner of the prospects here. a large red s on it.
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that would be a signal that he needed to get out. the signal to him that mi six had seen the estate signal is they would walk past him holding a bag and eating an english chocolate bar. either a mars part or a kit cat. [laughter] it is because it probably did, in fact. i don't know any other group of people that are more interested in their own mythology then spying. she had read an awful lot of john mccarron. this was only the third part. the next stage would be he would have to get himself about 30 miles south of the finish border. at the same time mi six would drive diplomatic stars cars with diplomatic plates and try to pick him up.
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wrap him in a special heat reflective blanket. and then just hope they could get them through the border into finland. even when they got to finland, they knew they were not going to be safe. he undoubtedly would have been back. mi 6 monitored a signal site. an aerial site. this is a compound where all the officers lived. now, for seven years, one of their wives would have to be monitoring that site. the reason they had to do that was because the diplomats
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themselves was operating the same way illegals wear. that was a behavior that they would pick up. rain or shine, wind or snow, they had to be watching that every tuesday night. he went back to the headquarters , under instructions from his reddish handler that he should try to get himself into the british section. there was a good chance he would then be deployed to london. at that point he would get the key to the crown jewels. he began learning english. he learned that very swiftly. it took six months before he was proficient. sure enough he was then deployed to london.
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you can imagine the joy in the headquarters when his application arrived and they realized he would be turning up in london. he went into the finals. he began to fill them in. trying to memorize every single fact, every single name that he could until the files. four example, he discovered jack jones, the trade union example in britain was exactly a spy. he had been providing information to the soviet union for about 40 years at this point. another key figure was a man called ron brown. very cheery and rather drunken scottish man. the instructions with regard to
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brown was to try to chat him up. try to recruit him as an agent. i am jumping a bit further forward. several meetings with john brown a very, very strong scottish accent. could not understand a single word he said. [laughter] he would have to go back to the russian embassy and write what he thought ron brown may have said. was in fact a soviet spy. the most important file that he identified was labeled agent boot and it referred to michael foot. some of you have undoubtedly heard of michael foot. by this point, 1981, the leader of the label party. the most senior labor politician
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about to go into electoral battle with margaret thatcher. for 20 years, between between 1949 in 1968, he had a series of meetings. not just 102, but dozens of lunches. he would tell them quite a bit of very interesting if not quite lee important material about the labour party. about gossip within the left. paid a lot of money. given the improvement about 70,000 pounds today. when the book was serialized in britain a few weeks ago, a very revered singer on the left. the right insisted that he was a
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traitor in the left insisted this was a decent man. he did not have access in the 1960s for that kind of information. it is a very good russian term. actually means literally useful idiot. it is often used to refer to somebody who was inadvertently being used for propaganda services by the soviet union. michael foot, in my opinion, was a very useful idiot. he has behavior that was idiotic all of the spying in britain is
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done. he arrived with this in his pocket. the general election was about to take place. raising a major problem. a strong possibility that the future prime minister of great britain would be a paid informant. a tricky problem here. like all organizations, they passed the fact. [laughter] the security service. robert armstrong still alive. decided to do nothing. he took this piece of information decided it was much too volatile to tell margaret thatcher. he just put it in his pocket and
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prayed he would lose his election. had he not lost that election, had he ended up prime minister britain, there is a contingency plan. this would've been a major constitutional crisis. they settled into britain very happily. two little girls now. she had absolutely no idea that her husband was a double agent for the british. she was a fully loyal soviet citizen. she would have been appalled. now producing information of higher and higher quality. a photograph of one of the demonstrations that took place. the korean airline. relations between east and west were as dangerous as they had been at any point in the cold
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war. able to reveal, however, was that so far from being the aggressive in the nuclear confrontation, genuinely fearful that the west was planning a first strike. probably a function of the fact that the soviets were losing the arms race, effectively. a former head that became the soviet leader was genuinely convinced that the west would attack first. it came as an extraordinary revelation. some of this information, much of it was being passed on to the cia. when this landed on reagan's desk it had a dramatic impact. profoundly shocked to discover the west was perceived as the aggressor.
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when gorbachev, the rising star arrived in london for his first foreign visit, he had had not risen to become head of the political section. moving up to fill. providing briefing notes. they were very detailed. they were also written by mi six. you have a unique situation here where once by his briefing both sides. telling gorbachev what to say to
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thatcher and thatcher what to say to gorbachev. someone we can do business with. that is because he was rigging the business. i mentioned a few moments ago that the cia was receiving information from the hall. towards the end of 1984, it had become a flood. but the information, this is a convention among allies when you're passing information, you can pass it on, but you don't have to reveal where it comes from. you almost never do. that would jeopardize your source. plenty of resources.
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we have some fantastic information here. we really don't know where it comes from. launching its own investigation. it was a very clever, they worked out where these pieces of information were coming from. they gave him the codename. they tuck this little piece of information in their back pocket the kgb. between names is worth making
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entirely by financial game. he was disgruntled. he felt he was underpaid. he wanted to make money. effectively spying. mi six is smiling on the kgb. went to the soviet embassy in downtown washington, d.c. contacted the head there and offered to give his entire 30 years of knowledge over in exchange for money. he was paid a couple of days later. a down payment $4.3 million to him burden all that he had.
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a telegram arrived in the headquarters in london recalling or rather calling, summoning him to moscow. he had become the resignation designee. chief of the kgb in london. quite literally he was about to get the key to the safe. he has done noble work. he should be allowed to retire right now. he should remain in britain. other voices saying we should hit the jackpot here.
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having a spy right in the center in london. making a choice. spectacular bravery he decided that he would not go back to moscow. the moment he arrived back he realized he was in deep, deep trouble. he didn't open the door. the third block had been locked. he did not have the key to the third lock. that could only mean someone with a skeleton key had gone into the apartment and accidentally locked all three locks upon leaving and the only that could do that was a kt be. a man was hunting him. why didn't they arrest him the
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minute he landed in moscow? there are two answers to that. he wanted to catch because he wanted to pick him up because he was meeting his mi six handlers. that was an enormous diplomatic storm. he was waiting for him. putting them there and just waited. waiting to give himself away. the second reason was complaint and see. no one had ever escaped from the soviet union. this strange period of cat and mouse began. for more than a month he knew he was under surveillance. he knew he was being followed. he was fed armenian brandy. it is -- i don't think it really works. for about 48 hours he went through a period where he did
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not know whether he confessed or not. he knew, he knew that the game was up. he knew eventually they would pounce on him. he now had to make a really appalling decision. he had to decide whether to escape or take his two daughters and wife layla with them. all four of them to get out. one child and one adult would be wrapped in the blanket. the girls would be injected with a sort of sleeping drug that would knock them out. get them across the border. that is a completely wild suggestion anyway. he decided that he could not take his family with him. he believed it was just too dangerous. virtually impossible to do it.
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also talking about it quite frankly. his wife layla was a. he was worried if they told her the truth she would turn them into the kgb.
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the two mi6 cars, believing might still be taking as many as four people across the border, would try to meet him at the rendevous site. this is a car used, the saab. driven by the head of state, roy as scott. oleg lad to make his way to the hiding place so this is a d-shaped -- ran off the main highway, screen. fred the main road by high trees and bushes and a large log. oleg had to hide in the ditch. two cars moo meet, bubble him -- bundle him up and the family and try to reach the highway. after an extraordinary series of very close scrapes, oleg made tote he hiding place, waiting in the ditch.
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the mi6 cars were maybing their we up the highway but they bracketed by the kgb. one kgb car in front and two behind. and two kilometers before the rendevous putt, roy was saying to himself -- he couldn't say it out loud because the cars were bugged -- was saying to him, i have to abettor this, how can we get doctor? but by stood good fortune a military convoy was passing ahead. as it pulled away the two mi6 cars which were considerably faster then the kgb cars, overtook the car in proven and required up the highway. by the time they reached a point 1200-yard before here. roy calculated the kgb cars would not come around the corner fast enough to see them go into lay-by. they screeched intoly lay-by. one man emerge. from the ditch
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covered in mud and mosquito bites, thaw three him in the back of the car, gave him a bottle of water and a tranquilizer and i will then rejoined the highway. by this time the kgb convoy has passed. the whole pickup, the whole transfer moment took 80 seconds. they then rejoined the highway and a little further, about here, were all the kgb surveillance -- waiting, looking extremely worried because they had lost the people they were supposed to be tracking. identity critical moment happened here, when the kgb surveillance team had to decide whether to tell headquarters they lost the people they were following and in true soviet style bus recording of failure was noose great career enhancer, hey did nothing at all. they get through the first border post. they got through the second border post, and at the third boder post here, the soviet sniffer dogs began to move
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around the back of the car, clearly scenting that something or someone was in the boot. at this point the wife of roy did something that was quite extraordinary and totally impromptu. they brought along their 18-month-old baby. that sounds completely mad but was a clever thing to do. perfect cover because the kgb could never quite believe they would have taken a baby on an operation like this. the baby had very obliquely just filled her diaper. and caroline took the baby out of the back seat, put her on the boot of the car, change the nappy and dropped the nappy undernight the trunk in which oleg was hide and the something of the nappy -- they managed to get through the border post. the dirty diaper that change the course of the cold war. and an hour later, on this stretch of road in finland, oleg
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odef ski heard a sound he recognized. he was a classical music aficionado. arthur g put a cassette into the cassette player and cranked up. he played fin landa, the signal to oleg in the into that he was in finland and was safe. thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you very'm. i left also time for questions. do please pipe -- >> wait, wait. i'm going to -- >> sorry, kyle gets the fir question. sorry. >> in defense of michael, don't you write in the book he
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actually turned over all the money or you think to finance the tribune and. >> we don't -- tribune was the socialist newspaper that michael footeed ited. we don't know what he did with the money hitch one a greedy man and didn't spend it on doing up his kitchen. we don't mow what he did with the money. it was lot of money. that's the baffling thing. why michael foot e who wasn't a greedy man, why hi accepted the money, the money was begin to him in onodd way. wasn't count edin front of him. simply stuffed into this pocket as he left lunch. and nothing more was said. a little something for you. >> why did he act like an idiot? >> i think there are several answers to that. think he was devoce pro soviet at hat time. he was -- he would have argued he was keeping communications
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open, you couldn't cut all the soviet union completely. the soviet union had interesting things to tell him. they were telling him little nuggets of nothings put into his speeches. he was being used am certain glamor to meeting kgb officers at that time. thought to be something people on the left did, sort of spurious spycraft, and quite a few did. in his defense. looking back, he denied it utterly. when he was accused of it, he flatly denied he ever knowingly met a kgb of. the word knowingly is a wiesel word. if he didn't know they were kgb officers he was being stunningly naive. >> thank you for -- [inaudible] >> there is a mic? sorry. yes. i it's coming to you. >> the title, spy and at the
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traitor, through most of the book i assumed one was gordievsky and juan was aments but they're not mutually exclusive. do you aseen either term or both terms to each of the two men? >> i assign both terms to both men. they are both spies and they are both in a way traitors. treachery is absolutely sewn into this business ever that's what mi of does, what the cia does, they persuade people in foreign countries to break the laws of their own country and to betray their own countries. for good cause. now, i quite -- i rather like the ambivalence in the title because they're both spies and traitors but very different sorts of spy and very different sorts of traitor. there's no moral eye with lens between ames and gordievsky and no equip lens between fillby and
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gordievsky. aims wanted money. it wasn't physical he bought his third jag wore that the fbi realizedded he probably wasn't on a normal cia salary. he made fortune out of it. and the consequences were enormous. still sending time in a federal prison in arizona. if oleg gordievsky has been caught he would hasn't interrogated, tortured and shot. no doubt. still lives under an execution order. so, the risks were very and if it then the regimes they were sending were very different. ames was in a uleak in position to know exactly what the kgb was up to. oleg believed, and, look, capitalism has it flaw us but he believed he was serving a cause of freedom, a cows of liberaltime, a cause that would allow freedom in the world. so they were serving different masters, they were both sighs and traitors and very different. >> from your engage.
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with oleg gordievsky, hey you hope a view of what the old regime of procedures were in play in the kgb are active today in the fsb? >> one of the things -- many -- some of the instructions that were begin to oleg when he came to britain in 1982 were he should try to interfere with the election is can he should try plant fake news, that the might like to try to recruit useful idiots who could per say a set of views that would be completely baffling. any of this sound familiar at all? that could create a situation where nobody knew what was true and everything was possible. miasma. so in lots of way is think the craft hasn't changed very much. we think of spying as being
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aculeate my digital phenomenon and all it eaves dropping and texs and intercepted e-mails and that is very important, absolutely vital. but the human element in spying is still as important as it's ever been. i think anyone who has been following the skripal case in london or the gau officers, trying to eavesdrop. human intelligence is just as important as it was. the idea this us somehow we moved into a technological age that makes this redundant is not right. i'm going to make you run around a bit. this one two the middling here in the blue shirt. >> this builds offure last answer there. i was a bit surprised to see a photograph of him at the outset, given the technology and the surveillance technology available today, why have his handlers allowed that information to get out? >> well, his, where are still
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concede. i would be very surprised if they didn't know where he is. he's been the same address for a very long time. he doesn't want to move. he is -- in fact refused to move. quite stubborn, oleg, cricky character. he is in a way very incessant about the threat. he has been under an execution order for 30 years. the threat of death is not new to him. he is under intensely close security now and its one of the things that worried me in writing the book, the book was finished at the time that they opportunitied to poison sergei skripal. so i possibly have made it more dangerous. does he mind? i don't thing he does,er in heard him express a single word of regret. none. >> one at the back the.
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>> one of the rite wing intelligence theories in the early 80 saturday the kgb was not only funding but controlling terrorism globally, that they were behind the ira, the plo, all of these groups not just the red army and so on. so i wondered, was oleg tasked with finding anything about that and can you give any revelations on the truth of that argument or not? >> oleg was tasked we ever trying no find out exactly what the kgb money was being spent on. specifically for britain, actually, wasn't the terrorism that -- it was clear there wasn't a link between the oklahoma and -- the kgb and the eye. a but there was a connect we ever the kgb and the miner strike. the miner strike, they were being bank rolled by the kgb or the kgb wag tries to bang rolle them but the money was lost in switzerland senator reason that
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has never been worked out. the oleg explained that in fact libyan terrorism was partly being funds by the kgb. only in small part but they were also quite a lot of the libyan information going back via the kgb so there was undoubted lay bit of that. i'm going to ask myself a question. one thing shy have said. later her daughters were leather behind in moscow. when leila disorder what happened, shen was arrester bid the kgb and brought into subjected to repeated interrogation because guilt by association is the way it works even though she was completely innocenter. she was devastated by this. she had absolutely no idea that her husband was a double agent. and it is the human cost that lies at the heart of these stories. she was held under houston arrest for six. >> e. >> not allowed out.
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ostracized by all the people she had grown up with. she did get out of moscow after the collapse of communism. she was allowed to come to britain with her daughters, who had nonseen their father now for six years. they were reunited. there are pictures, gauzy photograph of the two of them walking. but the truth is, the marriage was over probably long before then anyway. oleg deceived his wife from long before they met. long before they were married, rather. and the marriage exploded very quickly. oleg is completely estrengthed not just from leila but from his daughters. he doesn't see them. hasn't september in them now foa decade. i suppose that is the human coster that lies at the heart of these stories. we often think 0 of the stories that's moral fables, good people and bad people, black and white. life is not like and that spying definitely is not like that.
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its worth remembering is a position unanimous human cost. oleg has paid a huge price for what he did and so has his family. i fear, ladies and gentlemen, i leave overshot so thank you very much indeed. [applause] >> here's tonight's primetime lineup. at 7:00, richard brookhiser recalls the life of the supreme court's fourth chief justice, john marshall. at 8:00 p.m. the "washington post" national security reporter greg miller reports on russia's interference and the 2016 election. after that on book tvs "after words" program at 9:00 p.m., fox news host tucker carlingson
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offer is his thoughts on elitessism in america. at 10:00, michael a look at the member of the nixon administration who challenged the 37th president. and we wrap up our primetime programming at 11:00 with pulitzer prices winning journalist fox butterfield who chronicle criminal activity commit its by the boggle family, tonight on book tv, 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. television for serious readers. a reminder that this weekend's full schedule is available on our web site, book >> here are the communities best-selling nonfiction books according to the conservative book club. killing the ss. a history of the takedown of nazi fugitives by bill oryely and martin due gar. next is tucker carlson's
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thoughts on elitism in america in ship of fools, portlandly brian kill meade's look at the war of 1812, andrew jackson and me miracle of new orleans. after that, jonathan haith a discussion of the societal trends weakingenning the diversity of viewpoints on college campuses and a look at the best selling nonfiction books according to the conservative book club is, trump's america, forminger speaker of the house, newt gingrich, on the impact of the trump administration's policies at home and abroads. all of these authors have appeared on book tv and you can watch them online at >> good evening. one quick logistical notes. as you c


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