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tv   After Words Jamil Jivani Why Young Men  CSPAN  September 5, 2019 8:01pm-9:07pm EDT

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going on in the community call lail one - - yale university law school and traveling
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around the world and trying to figure out why young man get attracted. >> thank you very much. i would start off with what was the impetus for this book? >> like the rest of the world i observed national terrorist attack in paris organized by a few young men who had grown up in europe mostly belgium and france and turned against europe and european men decided they wanted to join a foreign enemy and attack their own hometown so 500 people and
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i saw this but i never thought about jihadist or violence before but i just saw these young guys and i thought they grew up and not very different from me newcomers and second-generation european. in and out of criminal lifestyles and have seen their friends go through drama. and very much people i could have grown up with but then they wind up in this place i have a hard time understanding so i wanted to know i saw a lot of emotion and frustration from all sorts of different backgrounds and i wanted to write a book that would explain what we might learn from their experience not these fringe young men that could teach us nothing but the result of a lot of things that everyday people can relate to.
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>> i will cut to the chase. what is the answer of your title quick. >> don't think it's simple but to there is the extents the answer is we had violent movements tapping in to a unique frustration that young men experience we are having a crisis at the moment and a lot of boys and young men think of being in this generation they are not supposed to be the breadwinners anymore or have any privileges that women don't have to share the labor market and the responsibility with women so what does that mean?
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we have a unique identity as a man. so they are looking online and in the streets and to their peer group and finding answers i don't think are helpful. some answers are good but some are not. wanted to write a book that would show why violent movements are so good to answer that question to give meaning to young men looking for that answer. >> and i appreciate the short answer but i also recognize you give a much more complete answer that's what the book is about and why it's so interesting. i found myself asking questions differently through your book it is entitled why young men so why not young women? they are growing up in the same segregated environment.
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is it the way we are raising boys and not raising girls? >> that is a great question and also just why men are young men not older men? that young population is so disproportionately involved in violence and violent movements so part of that focuses why is this the group that is the backbone and then looking at that group that are there things about the current generation that is unique like the introduction of social media as a young man to figure out my identity and where i belong we are looking at new technologies pulling us to the violent movements and that is what makes this generation
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unique also living in a time the way families have been structured with a good healthy family dynamic in ways that are not healthy i find it weird for instance politicians can go on tv to see at as controversial in some circles but if that is a controversial idea then i want to explore why because in the book you know i talk about the importance and i think that cultural push is true that importance. >> i do want to push back a little and those mixed gender
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issues so one way to think about this is we give little boys toy guns teaching them to value their violence in the whole conversation of masculinity that maybe we should get rid of that. >>. >> yes. so i don't think that may be they have to accompany toy guns there is another way for men to role model masculinity and they should be doing that differently or if they should be there in the first place. so i take the point there are ways for a present to be harmful it could be an alcoholic or treat your mom poorly in that i talk about
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the snapshots and often that wasn't a pleasant experience sometimes there was more damage a little time he was around that if he was just going but in the household and psychological research there is a throne of masculinity children are looking for this and what are they supposed to mimic or role model? if they don't have a man in the house is not just what you see on tv and it's a nice person and looking after children and paying taxes and going to work not just the glamour on television or the internet that learning the
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masculinity looks like that if you find high concentrations of men not in the house the overreliance of pop culture and that could be seen as entertainment to one group is a philosophy to another hip-hop is incredibly popular multibillion dollar industry most are treated like hollywood entertainment but those are your clerics and the icons that you look up to. we are expecting to answer all those questions so i do take a point but that does not mean we should not strive to have those positive role models around the boys. >> going back to the role models to be absent and can
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you talk more about that? mimic he was an immigrant from kenya to canada. he came to attend a wedding my mom was a white canadian they do what they do and then i came along left left they try to make it work. my father is a tragic figure his life was inspiring up until that point born is an orphan because of antiblack prejudice among his adoptive family in kenya so he pulled himself up what i think is incredibly difficult to put himself through school and learn to trade in put himself through and apprenticeship and put himself through hotels that is an inspiring story but when it comes to family
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dynamics and then i come along and my younger sisters come along to be a dad he falls apart so that stems as an orphan he never saw a family function. people who have healthy families appreciate how counterintuitive it can be to sit on the couch with your wife and kids in feel comfortable in that space. he did not know how to do that. i saw that in him as a kid looking back so by the time he leaves my life and i'm a teenager i accept that maybe i had good reason to be angry toward him but i also understand what he was battling. >> part of your book is the repercussions of not having a
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father figure. >> and of the families that are living in single family households most of the time and i imagine that is a fraction of what is going on because like where you grew up that they were physically there but not emotionally so i cap wondering as i was reading your book for the role models i was thinking i have the boy scouts. [laughter] or church group leaders and at the same time to realize law
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students tell me i'm the first black law school teacher they ever had. so that male figure of color i'm just asking for gangster rap. so to have those robust community services or a mentorship program or athletic programs that is fantastic but unfortunately we did not have that. and with that immigrant population, we didn't have a lot so the boys in my middle school still and how those services 20 years later. that was an unfortunate reality but i do think that there are plenty of other sources for those father
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figures and role models to emerge weather at the school as teachers or community programs to share space so people see more folks coming out of those doors and you have male youth workers is important and men who participate like a church or mosque or synagogue is incredibly important. a lot of that is male involvement. with the idea you can just work and earn money to contribute to your family out of that's a never good idea but it doesn't work anymore to give a kid a good life if you want to download the responsibility to ask them to do two jobs and then need to do a bigger role to do that with them so that is the
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culture shift weather contributing to the lives of the father, that is a responsibility many feel as the economic roles change right now. >> and with those other men around you turned to gangster rap so can you talk about that and also the life of your friends? mimic the reason why it's so popular around the world it's like gangster movies we love these outlaw characters this world of how you need to do this or that you don't have to listen to them. so when you are a young person it's natural to find those characters compelling that the difference is for me and my friends to think we didn't
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think we would get a good job when we were older such even stand what it will look like so those outlaws to be especially appealing because you don't think is designed for you to be successful so he never had to go to school of course you had to like him. so that's what they gangster rappers are presented to us and a lot of find that myths do well so if you are frustrated and you are flustered and is yelling and is frustrated and that is a hard language but the truth is most people feel that same
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frustration we are high testosterone and risk-taking with admiration and respect and when you hear someone to say yes i feel that. and tapped into the same frequency. >> i asked this question but i could read that section of the book and say what we need to do is police gangster rap more as a questionable teenager. >> or do you think that could be something else quick.
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>> so what should we be making laws? should you discourage your kid from listening to violent music? mimic yes. on a cultural level we should be mindful of what those messages are. one of the things i point out in my work is when we talk about other forms of violence like a white supremacist attacks a mosque, often narrative goes back we have politicians saying this that's why somebody hates immigrants and muslims and that rhetoric is an important piece of the puzzle but if that's the case then a billion-dollar industry built a black man talking about guns is that rhetoric not relevant to the homicide rate in this country that you hustling killer los angeles? talking about death and
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killing with an entire career maybe that is relevant. i wish that we granted that form of violence with respect that it is equally philosophical that the young man in inner-city america even in self-defense he has a philosophy behind the act and that is not solely attributable to gangster up certainly but surrounded by echoes of that doesn't help either that's what i want to get across that i'm at a point in my life i can listen to kendrick lamarr talk about in a gang ridden neighborhood and i appreciate that analysis but when i was 17 years old that's not how it looked at it i thought he was a prophet i
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that they were showing me how to live my life if that's what you think is happening in the life of others and you shouldn't say he is making a good point to you but to him it mean something else and that's the distinction. >> another reason i found it so provocative some of your arguments sound conservative. >> you hate that gangster rap and then that's the problem but at the same time you make a more progressive argument as well. >> you are absolutely right. i could absolutely be considered a right wing evangelist or progressive pro-
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immigrant. part of that stems from the fact that i spend my time with young men. i crafted these arguments and wrote that around the people that i'm talking about. because reality is not designed to fit on the political spectrum. trying to solve the's problems and i am pretty disappointed around the state of conversation and so a lot of what i have to say recognizes the fact i don't think democrats are doing a good job on any of these issues or republicans are but whoever is the most willing to hear me how i want to talk to that person. >> you said you are 31?
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when i was reading your book i was trying to imagine what life must have been life the specific time you were growing up because you said there was no real role models of color but there was gangster rap and i remember thinking how it would've been if you had grown up when obama was president if your formative years then that would counteract that gangster rap. >> you are right. especially because president obama by the time he came along this was another half white half dude so i appreciated his example a lot and it came at a time i'm not sure i would have gone to yale
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law school without someone like him because i never thought about ivy league schools and then he comes along and says he went to harvard? maybe not that's why - - that's not that crazy so that's a great point obama has moments he delivers messages you could strongly applied like my brother's keeper initiative but also sometimes tells a group of young men in oakland that taking cell fees like jay-z and the next moment i don't thinks for political expediency president obama was as clear about the morality and in his post- president era he has been clearer because he
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doesn't need igc endorsement anymore but i appreciate the moments like the morehouse college speech where i thought he was tapping into a wealth of wisdom of how much potential exist in black boys that we don't see and reminding them that is their responsibility to shoulder that. >> has barack obama have even more influence? that we constantly see him with his daughters and that has a tremendous impact on black men around the world. >> you are absolutely right
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and have those opportunities for negativity but technology also created opportunities because we saw more than ever before he's on facebook and twitter sitting courtside with his wife michelle and his daughters. he was so visible and powerful. we did not appreciate that until we have a president now who was so far removed from a traditional family value and his checkered history to say maybe that was a part of the obama era we appreciated more. all boys need to see a president standing beside his wife and is proud to be her husband and in love. [laughter]
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>> so much to explore young men and radicalization i want to get to that in more detail but even you. in your experience you talk about coming close about joining the other side you came close to buying a gun at one point. in fact these were your turning points. actually i would have you read. i just marked off the bottom of page 44. that was such a moving passage. >> this is from the chapter called capacity to aspire.
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went to one of my closest friends at school and asked him to locate a gun for me. a few days later he confirmed he could get one. he told me i need to make sure i was serious and it would take some work to get it. i told him i would get back to him. that day went home and cried. i'm not sure why i cried although crime was not one dish crime was not rare but i was scared i knew i was about to cross a line that would be very difficult to return from. i was trapping myself in a life that would make owning a gun normal. is a decision that would justify the way police already treated me and also betraying my mom's trust and causing her to lose faith in me altogether and the only good thing in my life that god never came up in conversation again and i assume he forgot about it maybe he didn't want to help me get one of the first place. or possibly he knew how bad it
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would be for me to cross that line and was relieved i never asked a second time. >> that is a great passage. what was the gun so important? what did that symbolize? >> it represented the seriousness to spend a lot about wanting to be a gangster like a hollywood figure and i wanted to buy this gun to show i am serious and i want you to welcome me into your network i want to earn money and my best friend was out of jail i thought this to be a way to show him i'm not a young kid anymore but becoming a man now. so then to decide if i get the
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gun is i have seen what it does to people and it is a slippery slope if you own a gun then you have problems and you carry on - - carried around just to feel safe. so when i say i was scared that's what i was feeling. it had seriousness in both ways that made me seem like a real gangster but also do you really want to be a real gangster and that's a life you want to commit yourself to? . . . .
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when you know that is happening and how much potential can be lost with these split second decisions you better criticism of the great second chances because there could be a whole lot more people like me in this country if we gave people the chance to live up to their potential. >> that's when you fix to fox news to msnbc. [laughter] >> if i recall it's also about the time that you take a test in tenth grade and there like your illiterate and that's almost like another turning point like
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i got to buckle down and study and you end up going to community college were transferring to the university but then there's also -- obviously things happen at the same time and you could've talked about your friendship lucas which is going on, i guess, around the same time all this is going on. >> yes, i was considered illiterate and high school and thankfully that did not hold me back as much as it might have because i had a mother who made sure i did not give up and graduating from high school but that was a discouraging experience and frankly, if i lived through that ten times, nine out of ten times i might've dropped out of high school. it was devastating. my friend lucas who is this -- our friendship starts and i say in the book i felt my father
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passed me on to him because he introduced us and then my father was gone and had this older friend who was this older male role model in my life but he was not living a life i think we would want anyone to mimic. he was in and out of jail and having a hard time himself. when he was incarcerated and this was after i had a turnaround where i was able to reengage with school and had to get good grades get into community college in progress academically going through that experience meant that i was seen in my life change very rapidly and my friends lives were not. i really was trying to figure out how do i help someone like lucas because i'm in school and my life is getting better and i'm seeing a light at the end of
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the tunnel yet he's doing the exact same stuff i was doing at 15 and i think about him as a one of the people i wish at that point in my life i knew what i now because i was not able to help. my efforts try to reach him and he took it as he me criticizing him interviewed him and threatened me and got into a fight and never talked again and now i go and try to find young men like him and hope that i've learned something in the last 12 years that might be able to teach them something or inspire them to believe in themselves and not take people who are judging them. >> i'm sure you've been asked this question before what is the difference? it sounds like your friend lucas could have ended up like you and what did what were you able to happen to that he wasn't or vice versa. >> the biggest and working in my
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favor was that i had not dropped out of school so despite the challenges i had in being illiterate and all of that -- >> i was still connected to something so by the time i'm ready to change and lucas have these moments where he would come out of jail or have a problem with the mom and say i got to do something different but he was stuck. he did not have any institutional connections and where to someone in that situation find support to become a different person and it's hard unless you have that in your family i think. whereas i have that support in school. even the school i was mad at him didn't like me the fact i was there and get a diploma and move on to community college was the biggest difference between us that those moments where i said i need to change my life and do not like was doing but i had
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support to encourage me to be that better person and that encouragement -- encouragement is an idea that i think we don't explore enough because we take it for granted but been able to say to someone look, you don't know how great you are and you can be a better person than you think and you might not see it, i see it. when you are ready i am here. that goes a long way and i had people in committee college say that to me and the university say that to me. that has been the biggest difference maker in my ability to have the cap competence to try new things or know one in my community or family had done. you blaze trails in part when people are showing you a life and having people who can show you this is where you go next. that goes a long way. >> is that the capacity to aspire? that the title of that chapter. >> yeah, capacity to inspire is a concept from nyu professor
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[inaudible] and his work in the context of poverty in india where he's trying to explain how some kids born into poverty make it out of poverty and some kids don't. i applaud that in my life because i think that there is rich cultural insights they are that you can have people that have identical panties and economic circumstances and all of that so we know that in neighborhoods are high crime most kids don't commit crimes. most are doing what they're supposed to do and they need more support than they are currently getting but they are not breaking laws for living their life the right way. that minority of kids who are exposed to crime and participate in it that is explained by understanding those cultural differences and how their decision-making intersects with their environmental circumstances. >> i'm going to stick ahead and you go to yale law school and you do teaching at osgood hal
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law school so how did you get involved in the activism? >> the question. a lot of it never felt deliberate. it just kind of felt -- when i was a student at dl i was in some sense almost like second bite the privilege of being an ivy league student and i think it was very hard to adjust to that life of saying you go from being someone fighting for a chance to prove yourself to now having all these people tell you you are a genius and a lot of the natural reaction i had to that was to take what i was learning as a law student and as a lawyer and apply that to the lives of people who were struggling. partly i hope it was to make a positive impact in the lives of others but also to be real away to cope with my privilege to say i don't know what to do with this and i want to share it with
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as many people as i can. i don't know what else to do. it was difficult to fit in a classroom at yale and feel comfortable and feel like you have the chance to connect people with resources and to make sure that people in positions of power understand the needs of people who are not as empowered and you should be doing that. why are you sitting in a classroom reading about contracts in the 1800s and that was how i felt and the way to deal with that and reconciled those feelings to become what you might call a community organizer or youth activist but to get out in neighborhoods and say i learned how to be an empowered person in our society so let me help people do the same and that's different from being a lawyer. i never wanted to be a lawyer once i learned that it's not necessarily your best way to empower people people. we need good lawyers are not
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denigrating the profession but what i mean is i want to be someone who can help people understand how to talk to lawyers and what a lawyer does and what is the broader context that a lawyer is operating in and that was the empowerment i got that i wanted to have more and more people get. >> intended to ask you about the city of new haven but i will say that if we have time. >> i will go ahead to talk about your interest in how people get radicalized and the similarity that you see between people getting radicalized with gangster rap or isis to anything else so you eventually traveled to brussels where you trying to figure out the lie of the two
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guys the paris attack in 2013 and we will get there before you get there going back to time in toronto you're hanging out with friends and members of the nation of islam and you go to [inaudible] and at one point [inaudible] can you talk about that time and do you see similarities between the nation of islam -- do you conclude that is being radicalized and that's a radical group connect. >> great question. i think of radicalization as being on a spectrum so you have radical ideologies and some of which can be helpful. there were times the idea that being a black man in a white man you were equal and deserve the right to vote was considered a radical ideology. but on the structure spectrum
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you have radical ideologies and ideologies that lean toward promoting violence as a way of acting on those ideas. the nation of islam would be an example where i would say aside from the assassination of malcolm x you can say is not produced very much violence and in fact, lewis [inaudible] is gone out of his way to discourage violence. that said it's promoting an ideology that could very easily be activated toward violence and malcolm x death would be an example of that. when you are promoting hatred and division and using very divisive language easy for people to see each other as enemies and overtime that boils over. what the nation of islam has in common with a group like isis for example is that they both use islam to promote their version of political conflict. they have attached themselves to a brand that, you know, one and a half billion people in the world believe and to some extent
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but they are not interested in promoting the moral aspects of islam or whether what it means for you in terms of your duties to other people or the fact that islam like other religions is mostly a colorblind. they're not telling a different moral expertise depending on your skin color is but it is telling you that you should identified with islam because they want to equate islam and anti- western and to the extent that radicalization in the way i use that is to say in this context to make hating the world around you and acceptable idea and then to fill the void when you reject the world around you with visions of a utopia and that if you join this group that somehow your life will become perfect but that, to me, is what these things have in common.
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>> i have to say on it fascinating your description going to hear lewis with a close friend and his friend and it's literally almost like you come back and you heard two different speeches. >> gap,. >> you know drinking the kool-aid and you're like yeah. >> it's the same thing the research i did when you look at what isis say to these young muslim boys and what is a white the promise to stay on the internet to a group of white boys with their trying to get across is your unhappy and that's a given. your unhappy with your life and the way you are treated and unhappy with the way people identify with or treated and you should blame the world around you, blame america, blame canada and europe and be mad at these countries and almost find this completely fictionalized alternative reality are somehow these problems don't exist
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anymore and that is the promise. somewhere between me and my friend in the nation of islam that we were both angry and unhappy with how things are going. i just do not buy into the alternative reality that lewis was selling and i don't think it's that different from the alternative reality of it or the white supremacist that finds these guys on the internet but the trying to preach that whenever you aren't happy about somehow disappears if you just describe to my ideology and fight for some alternative future where people of your particular faith or race are on top and that if you are on top than these problems don't exist anymore and all the tensions between human beings and prejudices we have in the class divisions we have in the biases and all of that, disappears when your people are on top. that is -- it's a fiction of course but one that is very
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compelling to an angry and frustrated and. >> what did you learn from your trip to brussels came. >> well, a lot of a few things. one is that immigration and integration in europe has been an abysmal failure. i think that there are specific policies that event under the bill of secularism so for example refusing people who wear religious attire to work as teachers or police officers and it's sold as an idea to promote secularism and we don't want to mix church and state but what that does is if you're from the jewish committee or muslim unity even if you're a christian who wears a cross around your neck signaling to you you can't participate in your society like everyone else. those are the ideas that have just been so destructive in your europe that people don't fully appreciate that the way that
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sets the tone for someone from outside of your country coming in and saying see, your country does not want you there. they do not embrace you. join my movement where we get revenge on your country. that's how you up nics grievances and europe has had a really hard time with its own nationalized identity and the confidences of that is it's almost like they are building an identity based on collusion. if we exclude these other people that it means we need something and that's just not how that works. that was one thing i learned. also what i learned is that the intersection of petty crime and radicalization is powerful and prisons in europe are briefing grounds for jihadists and a lot of the jeff office and of joining prices had a background in petty crime and went to jail for stealing a car for selling
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marijuana and they go in and wind up being consuming propaganda and i think that intersection is important because what i'm trying to get to understand is white with a young man who is appealing to who is drawn to gangs in inner-city america what can he learn from the experience of a young man in europe? trying those parallels is important because part what i'm trying to challenge the idea these are somehow pathological traits of a particular subgroup which is a very dangerous idea but is operated under the surface and a lot of it is conversation that somehow muslim europeans are predestined to have these problems because of some people say it's biology and some was a culture and while culture is relevant it's a culture that is created by a variety of broader factors that everyone is connected to as opposed to something that can be
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uniquely placed on the shoulders of some minority group where you are saying this is your problem and we don't have to worry about it. >> that's how i love you bring in the alternate and the famed radicalization neil nothing can happen anywhere but part of the thing that i struggle with is you do a great job of showing like here's some of the ingredients if you see across the board for this facilitate radicalization but at the end of the day part of me felt thinking that in such a small fraction of the people that get radicalized so reading your book i kept thinking i have family members who are jehovah witnesses and i keep thinking that jehovah witness knock on a lot of doors and most people shut the door and few people open them. people grow up in a neighborhood in its almost like why are the opening the door and are you any
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closer to figure out why they open the door? >> it's a great question. a lot of it is about timing so for example, a lot of the young men wind up in the most far-flung places ideologically are young men who, at the time they interacted with a recruiter or propagandist or older man who wanted to mentor them into a criminal network they were going through some sort of trauma. they lost their mom or their sister or their had a falling out with their parents but something that made them particularly distraught and vulnerable to someone selling them on a utopia, some vision of a perfect world. in terms of who can open the door sometimes it's about what happened to you that day. do you need a friend that they? then you open the door and maybe
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the jehovah witness is the friend you need at the moment and hopefully let's be clear jehovah witnesses are not promoting in ideology that i would say need to be opposed at all. the analogy. why do they open the door? a lot is about about hard to standardize and the personal circumstances which are part of efforts to solve this problem that are trying to operate on a bigger scale like some sort of international response to these things i don't think work because of how localized specific these issues were. if you want to push back against radicalization a lot of it was the relationships in the community when you see it in with someone open the door doesn't have the support to mention they're not going to be fully bought in and immersed in the world that on the other side or are they subject to such little support that whoever opens it is on the other side is everything they've been looking
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for. >> which is how you conclude building up to youth leaders and communities working with young people especially young men that i will ask about that and i have to ask you about black-white matter because you go after black-white matter but you know, great. [laughter] >> that's a part of the book that i probably received the most pushback on. >> [inaudible] >> they are a radical group. yes and i think they would also self identify as radical. [laughter] is in the eye of the beholder but a lot of these things think of themselves as being radical in a good way. the challenge i tried to pose to black-white matter were people who support them how they
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actually help resolve the problems i described and i take issue with all forms of what i would call with the centralizing so one of the common threads of everything we talk about is thes rest on been able to say to a young person there is an authentic way to be a muslim or a white person or a black person and when you claim that authenticity you are claiming power because you're trying to define what people are supposed to be but black-white matter of the nature of invoking race and the weight they do and their activism in linking that too i was a pretty french political ideas, honestly, their platform they came out with in 2016 would make bernie sanders look like ronald reagan. it's not mainstream politics and especially i would say not representative of even people
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who act democratically which is, by and large, a moderate and socially conservative group of people so the idea you will take this identity and insert political baggage into it and then think that black people who are affected by that box, like this like police officer i write about who is out trying to make changes i not be perfect but better than the status quo and he is now operating in a world where he is seen as less authentic by news media and criticized for it because he's not operating in the black lives matter box. i'm also a black person does not operate in a box and a personality in a public square, i'm a writer and check out these ideas i don't like that i get criticized because i'm not repeating far left talking points that are not shared by most black people and yet somehow that impression is been created because you have this very well-funded network of black activists who are not
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representative of anyone never been elected or voted but use media prop them up as if the voices of the community and that's incredibly frustrating. >> i mean, i would love to be an audience member as you are debating. >> i'd be happy to i will just go out on a limb and say i can't imagine your criticism about their not elected and that we have so much disenfranchisement in this country that elected official will not represent the community anyway and maybe the represent communities better than any elected official. [inaudible conversations] >> i'm not assuming you are but the question is what is the determination of representation. who gets around to walk around saying this is what is most interested in the best interest
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of men, or women or black lives. even in the book i invoke young men as identity in the title but i'm at risk of repeating the exact same mistake that i'm criticizing black-white matter for. if you read my book and i know you have i think it would be hard to go in and say i'm prescribing any sort of political ideology that men are supposed to have other than don't hurt people look after your family. be responsible to people around you. that is whether your democrat or republican or socialized healthcare or free market, i'm not telling you you're supposed to leave any of that. that's up for every young man to make his own decisions. there is a universal morality of trying to promote which is what it means to be a good person and that is at the core of every good movement that this country has ever produced. >> at the core of every civil rights movement has been what is the core of good and what does it mean to be good. this idea of putting forward a
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black identity trying to shame and bully and push people around who don't echo your political priorities somehow makes you less black, that i have massive problems with. i'm sure there are individual black-white matter individuals who say they're not trying to centralize black people or -- i'm sure that's not their intention but this is why identity politics is an issue. you're claiming to be the people you know what it looks like within black lives matter. i disagree with you. does it make me think that backwards matter because i don't think it's anti- israel is in the best interest of anyone? that's an example of an ideal they promote. i'm not anti- israel and i think a lot of people in this country are not. doesn't mean to be anti- israel is to be or lead black-white matter? no. don't invoke my identity in a politics in the first place. that's the message i'm trying to get across because in practice with the does is puts those of us outside that box in a
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vulnerable position to be criticized as less authentic with the cops among us or teachers or politicians among us and the conservatives among us and the preachers who don't show the buckeyes matter agenda in many cases are somehow we don't think black-white matter now? of course we do. >> as i said, i'd love to see a debate between you and [inaudible] likewise matter activists. we have a one minute to go so i will wrap up and turned to what we can do. we could at least try to stem radicalization. stem excessive violence. it goes from gang members to isis to white nationalists so what can we do in parents -- what can parents do? what can society or politicians do? i know i'm asking a lot but one
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final question, i'm a law professor and he went to yale law school what can law do? there is an excess of law in your book and is that because is impotent in this area? you are nodding i will assume -- what can the rest of us do? >> i'm not saying impotence but i do think a lot of the problems and i'm not sure there's a clear law and policy answer. law and policy can harm in some cases but i'm not sure we can always help. for example, i think incarcerating as many people is a horrible idea and laws like the first step back and other reform efforts are important to reducing the negative effects of the justice system so any politician listening i would say be bipartisan push to reform justice has only begun and i hope it continues and goes much further especially when it comes to supporting people coming out of prison that need a lot of deal with the trauma of being part of that system creates in
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you and since those people are fathers there will be a multigenerational effect and that's an important policy area worth looking at and is something to write about in the book because i think it's important. law is limited and a lot of this is cultural and how we treat each other and the responsibility we take for ourselves and the people in our communities and families. as parents one of the biggest pieces of advice i can give is understand what internet culture is and build bridges between internet communication and in person communication. ...
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make it a practice to talk about what's going on online when you see your child regardless of age on the phone, twitter, whatever it might be, have conversations about that. and make sure that you are helping them make sense of what they are seeing on social media because that is a world i that s full of horrible stuff as well as good stuff which of these influencers should i be caring about what they think and who should i not be listening to, and that is an exercise my generation starting to become parents and having children looking at these things, we need to take that seriously because i think we understand that, but that parents ahead of us in the generation between mine and my mom, that is a problem they might not feel is important that
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they need to take seriously. i wrote about the social media and internet affecting these things it makes the young men different than the previous generation. >> host: this has been incredible. i loved the book. thank you for talking with me. >> thank you.
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you can see the culture is
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western-based. we have more horses than people in wyoming. >> the city tour is traveling the country as we explore the american story. this weekend we take you to wyoming located along the bighorn mountains the city of about 17,000 is known for its cowboy culture and open ranges with the help of the cable partners. 100,000 square miles, 587,000 people, a single driver in economy and no major city we are utterly singular. the landscape is the artifacts
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so when people come in you see n start to absorb how crucial the artifacts that we preserve, which is the landscape, how that has shaped the westward expansion. asking students wha what issue o you most want to see the presidential candidates addressed during the campaign. nationwide video documentary competition for middle and high school students with $100,000 in total cash prizes at stake including a $5,000 grand prize. students are asked for a short
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video documentary why our boys are struggling and what we can do about it. what do you mean by the boy crisis? >> i used to be on the director's

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