tv American Resistance in Nazi Germany CSPAN December 11, 2016 3:00pm-4:01pm EST
[applause] >> author alex kirchoff talks about the jacksons, and american family that aided the resistant to not see-occupied harris. they lived were many not see and ss officers resided during the occupation. this is part of a multi-day conference at the conference ate national world war ii 2 museum in new orleans. >> i hope everyone had apple time to get your books and stretcher legs and have lunch. up next is one of the museum's most featured historians. alex kershaw. alex has shared a deeply personal stories of individuals who made it traumatic differences -- dramatic differences during this global conflict. he's made his impact with book
launches and conference appearances here in portland's. it also by being one of our -- in new orleans. but also by being one of our speakers. he is here to talk about his latest look "avenue of spies," which is the basis of the tour alex just got back from last lead where we took people from normandy, following the bedford boys, then to paris with a remarkable story we are about to hear unfolded during the not the occupation. i occupation. please join me in welcoming alex .ershaw area alex: can you hear me ok? good. in you hear me over here if pace around nervously?
as i walk the avenue of spies? grade. fantastic audience. i'm going to be very politically incorrect now and say something that i probably shouldn't say. i'm actually going to think someone from the museum who is the reason why i am standing here right now. please, jeremy collins, can you stand up, raise your hand up? where's jeremy? [applause] the reason why i'm going to embarrass him briefly, and please forgive me for this, is because jeremy first invited me to go on a tour with the museum several years ago. we spent three weeks together. he has been a big supporter of me over the years. europe thattrip to i came across the idea of the spies."here, "avenue of
this is a famous color photograph from world war ii. it is pretty rare. on the left, you will see over ise, the second nazi flag outside the hotel moritz, which is the hotel during the german occupation of the city of lights. and i weree jeremy walking, not staggering come i should say, we were walking along here a few times later night, that i decided i had to try and work out a convincing plan to get a new york publisher to give me enough money to go and get drunk several times in paris. which unbelievably, i managed to do. anyway, without too much ado, i will get on with the story. i will try and whip through fairly evocative images.
first of all, i wanted to read to you -- i am not a great believer of reading anything from any book that i've written because people tend to fall sleep. i noticed that there is no wine on the tables, which is a good thing because you definitely would be falling asleep if you had some over lunch. this is what a frenchman, a brave frenchman -- and there were many during world war ii, including i should say de gaulle . here's what he said about belonging to the army of the nights, the secret army, the frenchman and women who gave everything to defeat fascism and not see -- and not to them -- and naziism. torture andrrests, death for so many of our friends
and comrades. us tragedy awaited all of just around the corner. in or withlive tragedy. we were exhilarated of the challenge and the rightness of our cause. it was in many ways the worst of times. and just -- and in just as many ways the best of times. and the best is what we remember today. so i said this before. ote is powerful and evocative because i think it reminds me of us here what we andk about world war ii what if you choose to remember about world war ii. we don't want to focus on too often the terror and the darkness and the death and the suffering. we want to remember heroism, the
human spirit at its finest, sacrifice, and humanity at its very brightest. here, sumnerver the jackson, he is in uniform. it would be an understatement to say that he was born poor. he was born in the backwoods of maine. his dad was a part-time laborer. he left school at 14 to work at a quarry. by 1917, he had managed to qualify as a doctor almost miraculously. this is an example of american meritocracy at its finest. with theeered to serve british on a song in the first world war. as is him on the left in uniform. a doctor, obviously. this is him on his way to france in 1917.
frenchhis wife, a swiss nurse called talk at in an operating theater. he is at the head of the table for the stuff me. it is thought that his future wife is right at his side, right on the immediate left. the hospital for wounded american soldiers, other allied during the first world war in paris. sumner fell in love with her. said, when they met in hospital, they would kiss veryother in a closet often. but this was taken in the early 1920's. he decided to stay in france. he gave up his career, his family, everything in the u.s.
to be at her side. he had to retrain as a doctor in france. they didn't want jews to come from eastern europe to replace the doctors in france and they wanted anybody to come to france and requalify as a doctor. years in the u.s. recall if i has a doctor feared his son told me that it was worth it because he was madly in love. they were very keen tennis players. she was one of the finest tennis players of her generation. she was a great french champion many, many times. philip with his father, born in the late 1920's. he is alive today. he's almost 90. this was taken outside the number 11 avenue foss. that's a man philip. railings you see, the
blurred lines behind him, are still there today. i'm going to flip through some of the family photos. some are very powerful. he was very powerful come if it but powerful man. he was a chain smoker. is jackson, philip, the dog, his mom and dad. in the late 1930's, they went to normandy every summer during holiday. those people who know a little bit about d-day, when i say this is juno beach, you know what it is. that is where the canadians landed in 1944. here is philip slightly older. the gentleman on the left taught philip to swim in the cold, choppy waters of the list channel. -- of the english channel. philip would own his left this man because he talked him to swim.
the famous french general predicted the day that the germans would be forced to surrender after world war i. it would be an armistice only 23 years. it was wrong by only a couple of weeks. the second world war broke out a must to the day when he predicted it would. biggest chose the nicest places to live in paris -- the gestapo chose the nicest places to live in paris. houses.mandeered
they basically chose any place they wanted to live and took it over. this is 11. there is the ground floor flat where the jacksons live right behind the black iron railings are\. -- iron railings. bys young man was taken in some new jackson. he was protected by sumner jackson. found his way to the american hospital. he had been working as a volunteer ambulance man. that was a front. earlieste of america's spies. we did not have intelligence services before the second world war.
you did have people who worked for the american state department. they were your earliest spies. and donald costa was one of those men. later, he was involved in the planning of operation torch when the oss really kicked in and went into action. in an interview in 1981, he said int sumner jackson hit him the basement of the american hospital in the summer of 1940 until he could find the appropriate papers and a way out of nazi-concord france. this is the first connection that the jackson family have with intelligence and the first risk that sumner jackson took during world war ii to aid intelligence efforts. 1940, i have a flag in front of me. you will see i highlighted some of the buildings where the estoppel were met -- the gestapo
were most active. if you have good eyesight, you will see several of the buildings have been taken over the gestapo. very powerful figures in the ss in occupied paris. actually this here is an arrow pointing to number 72. by 1943, 1944, the most powerful man in occupied france. when he6 years old arrived in paris in the 14th of june, 1940. has a phd in midi building was slid her chair. an academic who became a very devoted nazi. he arrived in paris in disguise
on june 14, 1940, disguised as a military policeman, not as an ss officer. because the senior from x generals in paris in 1940 didn't want any of these so-called gentlemen anywhere near paris. they were called the blockbusters -- the black bastards. if you were a christian aristocrat, he didn't want this person in the most beautiful city on the planet that you know dominated. these people, when they arrived, extermination. had all of apparatus of the ss. early june 1940, right until almost 1943 the ss and the gestapo struggled to dominate the situation in paris
and also france. this is winter 1940, just outside paris. he was allowed to stay. many americans were interned by germans. to the right is philip jackson. philip told me he liked this photograph because it showed him and his father together. they weren't together very often because sumner was so busy. and it also shows impossibly his happiest. give them a hand, to carve, to be outdoors. he came from the backwoods of maine. this is a reminder of the lifestyle, the upbringing he had left behind in the u.s. 1942, this is the
airport. hydra --al figure is is heydrich. described easily as the architect of the final solution. he was at the conference on they planned the final just -- the final solution. he arrived in paris to make sure the ss, in particular the gestapo, were placed in the position of primary power, the france become an ss state. the ss were the ones to call the shots. heydprotege on the left of rich. he was an inspiration. to the far left over here we have
-- and france would become an ss state, a place where the ss and the gestapo and the more fanatical followers would make sure they could get what they want done is done. and they would assassinate and toder anyone they need to get what they want, which is namely the french resistance. the french today would argue that the two of them are responsible for the murder, the mass murder of over 160,000 french civilians. 80,000 french civilians who were jewish and around 80,000 resistance french civilians who dared to defy them.
july 1943, joe manos was shot down into paris. i interviewed him for years ago. -- four years ago. the home run meant, if you are shot down over northern europe, if you manage through connections to the french resistance to climb the pyrenees badget to spain and be sent to england. in fact, he went to the same pub where his crew had been before they left on the mission where he was shot down. two weeks, he was interrogated very severely and he resented it for the rest of his life. he had been through hell. he had been health by 50 people
through the french resistance. he told me, when he got back to the quarantined him and interviewed him at great length because they thought he could be a double agent, that he was returned by the gestapo and then came back to become a spy. he wasn't a spy. and in this report you made, a very detailed report, he mentions a doctor sumner jackson . he made his way to escape line, liberals connected to a national resistance movement. he was in sumner jackson's office. he took him back to his home at july 1943.oche in it appears jackson helped several other down allied fliers to return to spain. this is the only documented evidence i can find of joe manos.
he was part of the escape line that helped many others to spain. summer 1943, the war against the ssn -- of the ss and gestapo war against the resistance, they know the major aid from france at health for any an hour -- any allied invasion would come from the french resistance. come atw it's going to some point. maybe even in the fall of 1943. the gestapo and ss were determined to keep the french resistance from helping them so they went to war with the resistance. anybody that was involved in the resistance and use all kinds of tactics to do
so. here you have number 84. summer 1943, his empire has grown from number 72 to number 74 and also number 76. you have here a senior ss officer who becomes one of the most successful spies of the third reich. capturing sotain agents, special operation executive agents. ii of the myths of world war is that the british made use of spies. in france, we were disastrous. it was a child's game. capture child's game to british spies in france. they were arriving with bad french accents.
they would be arrested within hours of walking into cafe. they were amateurish. to pick on france, when you point to france, you have to say that it was a disaster. it was an absolute disaster. and the guy that was the chief bloodhound for the nazis, the one who tracked down most of our soe agents was hans kiefer, a .ood colleague of knock and
belong to the french resistance. i have something to ask you. would you be prepared to use your house as a meeting place and a dropbox for my resistance group? he told me that his wife, who by this time was 54 years old, didn't hesitate for a second. she said yes to you can use our home as a meeting place for resistance agents. the decision to join the resistance was a very serious one obviously. she had a husband, sumner jackson, and a 15-year-old son, phil jackson. avenue foche as a place where the resistance can meet, she was risking not only her life, but her husband and her son's life. but she was still prepared to do so. august 1944, this is a photograph taken at number 72 avenue foche.
he was in paris on the 25th of august, 1944 when it was liberated by french second armored division and americans. they fought right to the heart of paris on the 25th of august, 1944. and on avenue foche, where , he wentanks rolled into the offices of the gestapo of thetook a shot polished boots of the senior ss officials. and it shows the papers been discarded, the haste with which the gestapo had left paris after 1500 days and nights of occupation. in late may of 1944, literally just a couple weeks before d-day, there is a knock on the fourth door -- the front door.
the knock on the front door from the came on 11 avenue foche. and the police arrived and they sumnerd toquette, jackson and phil jackson. toquette found herself in ravens book -- ravens broke. is that the 50,000 women paris ravensbruck.ke -- this is an unusual photographic as it shows the women actually wearing uniforms. toquette was a group of a -- was a part of a group of french resistance fighters who only war summer dresses for the winter of 1944-1945. she was the oldest by 10 years of the group that was deported from paris with her. and she was the only one to survive. group that were
deported from paris. on the 29th of april, 1945. she has been rescued by the swedish red cross at the 11th hour. and going to read you quickly. this is trying at the vapor, 1945. she has just come off a boat from across the baltic. she writes to her sister in paris. my sister, i know nothing about you since we saw each other in paris. do you have any news of jack? the nickname she had for her pete, theumner, or name she used for her son philip. if my handwriting seems to tremble, it is because i have open wounds on three fingers and
no eyeglasses. titus and myf the ears run. i can't hear on one side. my feet are swollen, and i have terrible this entry. she's 57 years old. , my morale isthat good. it is a miracle i am not dead. and to think i will see you soon. no time for more. kisses. your sister. jackson survived, but she didn't know if her husband and her son, who had been deported to the third reich, if they had survived. this is philip in the summer of 1945. he did survive, but he did not know that his mother had lived. moreoing to read you one
short section from here. philip found himself on fourth, 1945, may 4, philip had been among workmen with his father. they decided they were going to sink any ship that was a float on the baltic. that's exec we what we did. we killed over 12,000 people -- and that's exactly what we did. we killed over 12,000 people and .ank every ship in the baltic
philip managed to somehow miraculously survived her and he was one of 200 people of over 2000. but his father was drowned. he was liberated by the british. --the summer of 19 for five in 1945, he was hard because he spoke fluent german and english and french. finally, he discovered that his mother had survived and she wrote to him and said where are you? please come back to paris. september 1945as when he got on a metro in paris. l'etoile.t out at mother was there to greet him at the door at number 11. he said, i had gone back into my bedroom which i had left a year and a half before and it was the same.
my mother hadn't moved anything. he was 17 years old. he had been deported when he was 16. but he told me, for me, everything had changed weird i spent a year in a concentration camp. my father has been killed. i missed my entire adolescence. i went from being a child, a boy, to being a man. hamburg.im in 1946 in he testified at a war crimes trial against the senior ss. it was in court when he was able to point to nine ss officers and all of the nine were executed by the british after the war. and he told me, when i interviewed him, that is the single thing he is proudest of, not belonging to the resistance, but the fact that he was able to testify against men who had murdered thousands and that his testimony had been an important and he had been believed and it had led to the direct execution
described what he had as monsters, people he had seen every day to be monsters, people who made him lose all faith in humanity as a 16-year-old. here's the two men i showed you earlier on when they arrived on in mayteful, humid day 1942 and they were the kings of france, when there twisted racist ideology held sway throughout europe. before, they had fully dispatched over 160,000 frenchmen and women to their deaths at the heart of the third reich. here they are on trial in paris in 19 six e4 in knochen. en.in 1964 in knoch both were sentenced to death.
for political reasons, they were both able to survive. in this gentleman on the right, see an knochen, you nsitting with knochec and he had become a very successful insurance man. a said, you know, i was never criminal. i was never a genocide is. was never a mass murderer. i was serving my country. and the great tragedy of my life, what is so unfair about my life, is that, yes, i did organize the deportations, yes, i did sign the orders to send these people to the third reich. but i didn't know what was going to happen to them when they got off the trains at the end of their journeys. no one ever told me.
sent test the fantastic, a skill, fabulist to the end. below that dome, as many american gis from world war ii knew, because it was the most visited place by american soldiers in paris in world war ii, it's the tomb of napoleon. and fellow today lives a stones throw from napoleon's tomb. it is one of the select few and very elite few of the resistance who are allowed to live there, which is of huge, historical the
significance. that is where the the creme de la creme are looked after and nursed at after the end of their lives. -- nursed after at the end of their lives. it was my great honor and privilege to take 25 people from the museum tour -- we did a trip to france. at the last minute, i was able to surprise all of them and we were able to walk into the main of the helmet and were able to shake this man's hand. powerful experience for all of us because we knew all of us were doing it for maybe the very last time. he is at the end of his life. he hasn't got long to live and he did not look well. but it was a very powerful thing to be able to do. this is my ugly mug beside
philip jackson's into 14. i'll move forward because i can't stand looking at myself in the best of times. restaurant,en at a a place that was phillips favorite restaurant. dinner afterwe had we had met philip that afternoon. it's his favorite restaurant. thank you for being such a wonderful audience i wanted to read you just one last thing before i disappear before you. before you can spend the rest of your time here listening to wonderful historians. it's a poem by fellows arvo. -- by philip zarbo. indulge me. i'm feeling a sentimentalist.
the women were naked most of them and it was a very hot day, very, very hot, and the metal ruse of the boxcars me to feel like a sauna inside. in the women's bodies slithered together because they were perspiring so much. and as some of the women collapsed, they would slide and into the back. and some women were seen on their knees and they were licking drops of sweat that draw from other women's backs. zarbo was one of those women and toquette jackson was one of those women. she was made to kneel down and shot in the back of the head and murdered. as many of our finest intelligence agents were who
ended up on avenue foche. but before she arrived in france, before she gave her life ism, she became an agent for the british. and landmarks, who ran her, who was her boss in the soe, knew that she needed to practice her code making. poeme wrote a beautiful viette would decode and code and decode to practice her code making. this life that i have is all that i have in the life that i have is yours the love that i have of the life that i have is yours and yours and yours a sleep i shall have a rest i shall have if death shall be the cause
for the piece of my years in the long green grass will be yours and yours and yours thank you ray much. you've been a great audience. -- thank you very much. you've been a great audience [applause] >> if you have questions, please raise your hand so alex can get to them. start in the center at the very front. alex: sorry, i wanted to run away. i've not yet been deported. >> just finished your book a couple of months ago. i think it is the fifth or sixth of yours. just a question. what led to the root -- to the arrest of the jackson's? was it the one incident or a
series? alex: they belonged to a group called [indiscernible] i managed to come across the document which is in the , which namesaris the members of that resistance organization who were deported s.th the jackson on may 22, 1944, a safe house near vichy was rated by the gestapo. they found a list of names. whoever had been operating that safe house were very amateurish. at the same time that they found the list of names, which included the jacksons, they letters with of
her dress. so it wasn't one incident, but it happened in another part of paris. it was complete amateurism. don't have letters addressed to people with their real names. it was amateurism. >> to your left, alex. alex: sorry. >> you talk about the soe being penetrated. with the exception of the jet birds. there was a certain department within soe that had been terribly penetrated in their communications on the ground, department h or department c. could you expand on that a little bit? alex: the network that is most famous for being penetrated, which kiefer rolled up pretty quickly, is prosper. that is the one that had several
.ery famous agents that was particular to france. i believe intrated early july of 1943. thethe, hence kiefer --and gestapo, hence kiefer, they did it very carefully. 11 avenuerrived at foche, you arrived in a van. i take people to the actual of 84. nothing's changed. you went underground into a courtyard. then you were taken up to a second floor of 80 four ave foche. and if you were british and most of the guys were posh and the women were interesting because they had merit frenchman or spent part of their lives in -- or spented frenchmen
part of their lives because there were bilingual. enlistmentd have an who would be that -- an englishman who would be there with skits and tea. was sophisticated. and you would be offered a cigarette. down,int was sit cooperate, have a nice cup of tea. there's no point in resisting. and if you do, we will talk to you later on and use you as we see fit. .rosper is the same in the back of my book, i have a long story, a note about some of the agents in that. it is seen as a classic example of how the gestapo in paris so captureddermined and british intelligence agents and
soe. you have to remember thatsoe is not mi six. , you willgle my name see that i am listed as an mi 6 agent. my place of recruitment is geneva in 1997. to collegeuse i went with a few people who did actually work for british intelligence and probably still work for british intelligence. but anyway, i'm not an mi 6 operative. but the mi 6 existed at the same time as the soe. the soeas thought that
word churchillian amateur's. business ofthe real intelligence. and others paid the price. were betrayedhere by mi 6 operatives. they would swallow a false story that when we were going to invade france on d-day. soe to do that. howper is the example of easy it was. thehen interrogated some of soe, members of the prosper
network in france. >> alex, to your right. a comment first and then a question. 1945ice that april 29 of was also the same day that felix sparks liberated dachau. it is interesting how that plays out for protagonist in another story. would you comment on the overall effectiveness of the resistance movement in france? and also, i get a sense from what i read, that the french look to back on the second world war -- here is a country with the largest army in the world that one point, gets rolled over by the germans in nothing flat. matter of shame in many respects. somehow, the resistance movement seem too kind of bolster the french and how they look upon that period. french ambassador
is here, please leave the building now. [laughter] maybe not mi given what just happened briefly. -- maybe not, given what just happened briefly. i think you raise very important points. a wonderful question. i will try to be brief. -- i went to it by see philip -- the third time i went to see philip, i was rolling his wheelchair to get quite drunk at his favorite restaurant. and ae on the third floor woman was in a wheelchair right aside us and got into a lift. she was slumped in the wheelchair and she must have been in her mid-90's. and she was drooling. i looked at her and i looked at philip and we went to lunch and the french know how to treat veterans, especially their
resistance veterans. it's a big deal for them. in their late 80's, early 90's, nine members of the french resistance were in a separate room at the restaurant. each table had a white linen tablecloth and we had a half bottle of burgundy one for lunch. this is how they treated their veterans. and i said to philip, who is that in the lift? and he said, oh she was in the resistance. you know, i have been able to .peak -- sleep she's been screaming every night. years after the second world war, this woman wakes up in the middle of the night screaming. because when she was caught by the gestapo, they were clever. they were clever a lot of the time. instead of killing her and torturing her, they made her parents kneel down in front of her and shot her parents in the back of the head. and they said to her you can go free.
just remember to tell everybody else that is what is going to happen to them, too. so when you go to friends and you go to normandy -- i was there five weeks ago -- when you talk to the french about de gaulle, about what happened in the second world war, you will have different reactions. some frenchman i talk to are very angry about the accusations that somehow they lacked spine, that they give up too easily, that they were so quickly defeated. taylor said in the may of 1940 said inr -- hitler may of 1940 come in six weeks, i will be in paris. terrible, in it was a moral, emotional, physical shock to be defeated that quickly as a proud nation. but let's not forget, as brits, we were also defeated. we had dunkirk, the so-called miracle.
if we had not had the 21 miles of the list channel, they would have had scotland. they may not have fallen is easily as the brits. [laughter] builtll would have been weekly. some kind of wall anyway. but the english channel saved us. no one was immune. blitzkrieg was fantastic. it worked. it was the most effective form of warfare anybody had seen. so yes, the french were defeated. now, in 1941, when sumner jackson became involved helping downed allied airmen, when he became a resistant, yvon though he didn't join their distance -- joined the resistance -- even though he did not join the , even in 1944, on the eve of d-day, there was a very
small percentage of french people who were in the resistance. after the war, the mythology, the popular stories are that everybody i knew was in the resistance. it's not true. it's absolutely not true. there is a very large gray area that a large people occupied during occupation. they did not want to actively support the knots these -- the nazis, especially when things were going in the germans' way at the beginning of the war. in the eve of liberation, there were still very few frenchman and women involved in the resistance. when they were, they were violent and effective to some extent. but they had no weapons. the reason why they had no weapons his we made damn sure that they had no weapons.
the communists were the ones who would walk up behind you, who were german on the metro, take a single pistol and shoot you. you are a communist if you did that. you are ideologically motivated. we didn't want those guys running france. in fact, when i went to paris, people couldn't believe it when i said, you know, can you normandy, 50,000 casuals, -- american 9387 americans buried in omaha beach. imagine that sacrifice for nothing. out on normandy in finding out that the french resistance had taken over paris nice.on and bordeaux and
what was the point? what would have been the point of liberation? there would have been no liberation. i hope i've tried to answer your question. finally to sum up, i think if we had armed them, it would have been the stupid thing to do because we would not have been able to have a democracy in france after the war. the communists heavily armed would have run the country. the reason why we put de gaulle in paris in 1944, even though we hated him, everyone hated him, was because he was a figurehead. we needed someone the french would believe in support and follow. we didn't want a communist. that's why we ended up with de gaulle. >> we've got time for a quick question to you right, alex. >> the prevailing view i think is that torture is not only
barbaric, but ineffective. is that also true with the gestapo experience with torture? >> clues prevailing view is it that it's not effective? [laughter] who's prevailing view is it that it's not effective? [laughter] it would work on me. [laughter] i would be having a cup of tea saying where is the next sandwich? [laughter] i don't think it worked on the right kind of agent. d properlye vette and had the kind of steel that people wanted, if you are like violette zarbo, toquette jackson, the kind of spirit, no, it didn't work. it did not work on people who were superhuman in a way.
but on certain people, it did. i don't think you can have a kind of binary view, successful or not successful. i don't think it's a humane policy. hiroshima was not particularly humane either. when we talk about war, we have to -- certainly in the second world war, we have to talk about how we won it. end, 1945 in the certainly, when we look at world war ii, we have to be honest. we have to say it was mass industrial slaughter. so torture becomes a rather when oneral argument night in tokyo 121,000 people died from the houses being burned around them. we have to put it in that context. yes, i think torture is wrong. we should never use it. then, mass industrial
slaughter is also something we should question. is what isn't questionable that it has to be done? ,e had to do anything we could anything we could do to end that war and be victorious. the consequences of not doing that are still, i think everybody would agree, too horrific to even start to process or imagine. >> i want to take the opportunity before we thank alex -- we have a special guest with us, a world war ii veteran who himself had his own french -american relation during world war ii. [indiscernible] from lafayette, louisiana. even though his language was outlawed, the church and the culture allowed for the french allowed to in north
africa, he worked with the french military, but also the civilian colonialists. and then he participated in the invasion of southern france. recognize ad to special veteran, a special hero. thank you. [applause] and thank you, alex. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016]
socko, and nicola then zaidi, were charged with murder mess sits. they were found guilty despite lack of supporting evidence. snydernday, brad discusses the controversy surrounding the sacco-vanzetti case. here is a preview. >> frankfurter heard the news by phone. a lawyer called him and said and frankfurter replied, you know where the other justice is? no, the lawyer said. in chatham. home 3:30. you will be kind enough not to talk about this between us. lehman's can sometimes i appreciate. wife collapse and 9:00 p.m.
in three hours, her husband was scheduled to be executed. 800 members of the state police force had assembled outside the prison, armed with machine guns and fire hoses. inside sacco and density sat inside their cells. finally, a very miffed governor of massachusetts granted sacco a stay of execution and gave them 10 days to exhaust their appeals. later that night, holmes releases one-paragraph opinion to the press. he said he lacked the power for a stay of execution. and there was a big difference theeen a lynch mob and prejudice in this case.
"i said most differences are differences of a degree. i felt a line must be drawn between external force and prejudice, which could be alleged in every case." >> you can watch the entire program on the case on sunday at 5:10 p.m. eastern here on c-span3 "american history tv. " december 7 marked the 40th 70th anniversary on pearl harbor. up next on "reel america," the from 1942.r, a film the film begins with the japanese attack on pearl harbor and president roosevelt's day of infancy -- infamy speech. film.is capture document it was shown widely in american movie theaters.