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tv   Election Interference from Shell Companies Virtual Currency  CSPAN  June 26, 2018 8:00pm-9:03pm EDT

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committee 48-4. there will be dirs, but i would expect that this would pass. >> patrick kelly covers defense issues. iqbal his reporting online at thank you for the update. coming up tonight on c-span three, look at efforts to protect u.s. elections from foreign interference. and then from the white house, the awarding of the medal of honor to world war ii veteran. and later look at foreign investment in the united states. a senate judiciary subcommittee examined virtual currencies as way foreign countries are influencing u.s. elections.
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witnesses include a former director -- a representative with the cyber security firm called dark our this is about one hour. >> the subcommittee will come to order. i appreciate senator whitehouse being in attendance and coming up with this endless pool of good ideas. i learned a lot about cryptocurrency. let's see if i can put it into action but the purpose of this hearing is to look at the problem the country faces in terms of how a shell corporation could be exploited by foreign entity and how easy it would be to create a corporation and funnel money through that and affect our
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democracy. and how these virtual currencies , but quite another's can be manipulated by groups to influence our democracy. so what i would like to do is introduce our penal. -- panel. i will say this. i have chairman grassley here. i appreciate his attendance. we are not talking enough about this problem. is going to happen and probably already has happened. and the good news is there the legislation that we can enact to quickly if we chose to that would make it easier to stop this and senator grassley has been terrific on the subject matter. but i will trade over to senator whitehouse. >> thank you very much, senator graham. this is one of a series of firsts that we've accomplished
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in the subcommittee under your leadership, and i am grateful for this. some are t bliclynown, but are significant and i just want to open with a word of appreciation to you. we had a hearing in judiciary in april where mark zuckerberg testified before the judiciary committee about the new measures that facebook was implementing to make sure that foreign actors could not by political ads on facebook and interfere in u.s. elections. facebook was going to require a valid government identification and verified the political ad purchaser. however, in response to my question, mr. zuckerberg conceded that they would not look behind a shell corporation. if a foreign actor merely the most money into a domestic shell corporation, which then
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purchases the icon facebook would be none the wiser. unfortunately, the federal election commission and other regulators are no better equipped to detect foreign identity laundering in your selections for while foreign corporations and foreign nationals are prohibited from spending money in elections, our lack of effective disclosure laws would allow for an interest to set up shell companies, hide their identities and engage in illegal political spending. quite simply, vladimir putin can use the exact same tactics that american special interests use to spend money now elections. criminals have long used shell companies to hide ill-gotten assets. as we havelearned more and more about russian interference in our own elections and about their playbook abroad, much thanks to previous subcommittee
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hearings, we now see hothw e devices can be used to hide meddling in our elections. last year a homeland security advisor to george w. bush noted that it is critical that we effectively enforce the campaign-finance laws that would prevent this type of financial influence by foreign actors. i could not agree with him more. but we don't, and we don't look through shell corporations to see who is really there. the first step to help address this problem i was pleased to work with senator blumenthal and senator durbin. the bill targets the cadre of professionals who help establish the shell companies. it would make it a felony for an owner, officer, or a corporation agent of a corporation company or business
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entity to establish or use a corporation company or business entity to conceal illegal political activity by foreign national. separately we introduced the stop secret foreign interferceelections act. that would require senior executive and financial officers spending money in elections to certify that they've done their due diligence to ensure that no foreign money has been accepted for their political activity and that they've not spent any form money on campaign related dispersant. that is been referred to the finance committee and i raised it as an example of legislation that congress should consider. our hearing today will examine whether cryptocurrency can be used to launder for money. obviously the growth of cryptocurrency poses challenges
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for congress and regulators. i'm glad that we are examining this and getting a better understanding of how this emerging technology works. i look forward to learning more about how anonymous virtual currencies are and about the risks the anonymity of those currencies hide. alexander hamilton advised way back that couption from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils is one of the most deadly adversaries of republican government. that is a small are. this adversary is no less deadly today, so while campaign- finance -- we can all agree that hamilton was t and
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that we have a compelling interest in making sure that foreign governments and foreign agents cannot sabotage american elections and covertly infiltrate our political arena. so i think chairman graham for having this hearing. i hope this is a sign of good future work to protect our elections. >> i noticed the presence of the committee chairman. would you like to say thing? >> i will not be here because of the farm bill. and to think our witnesses, because i know everyone that appears before this committee has to do a lot of work. and thank you for the audience for being interested. and besides saying thank you to the chairman, congress continues to confront the election interference issue and find all the ways that we can to prevent this in future elections. the judiciary
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committee has taken the lead role in this effort and this is the seventh hearing that we've had on the single topic over the past 19 months we've heard from a number of witnesses on this topic. they've made a wide range of recommendations on how to deal with the election interference as we approach the midterms. i am pleased that the witnesses are here today and they have offered to lend their expertise and their own perspective. i've also cosponsored the shell company abuse act along with senator whitehouse, german, and blumenthal. it incorporates -- this bipartisan bill shows that we can work together across party lines and put politics aside for the good of the country and help secure our election infrastructure. i look forward to the hearing of record. as we'll hear from the witnesses
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about the initial steps that can be taken to protect our elections, and i will submit some questions for response if you would respond to them in writing. >> if i could, i overlooked expressing my appreciation to chairman grassley for his work on the title corporation, which is probably the broadest shell corporations disclosure measure in congress right now. is focused on porn election spending and not having america become a haven for criminals around the world. and i appreciate his support on that legislation. i should've mentioned that. >> our panel today is mr. david murray, he is the financial integrity networks fight's president for product development and services. he was involved in all aspects of financial integrity policy serving as a director of the office and the senior advisor to the undersecretary for
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terrorism and financial intelligence. mr. scott dueweke is a global advisory firm focused on cyber engineering solutions. he has advised international law enforcement on international payment systems like cryptocurrency and the application of blockchain to the financial -- and last is miss sheila krumholz. it is a nonpartisan watchdog that tracks money in u.s. politics. she previously served as a research director supervising data analysis for open secrets.ork -- would you all
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please stand and be sworn. witnesses were swarming.>> >> thank you chairman graham for convening this hearing to discuss protecting our elections from foreign interference. thank you for the invitation to be here today. it is an honor. foreign interference is a critical national security threat and the american people are fortunate for your diligence in addressing this. as you noted the concern about foreign interference in our elections predates the ratification of the constitution. since then we have act to protect -- despite these efforts the u.s. remains vulnerable to foreign interference in part because of
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critical gaps in our financial transparency regime. foreign adversaries have low tech and high-tech options for covertly funding opions that undermine the democratic processes. anonymous companies are the leading threat. among high-tech options virtual currencies are an emerging one. today i will discuss how foreign actors have a -- i will conclude that providing recommendations for strengthening financial transparency. in 2016 brush unblea covert campaign that was -- the campaign represented a significant escalation indirectness, level of activity and scope of effort compared to previous operations. now, covert influence requires stark funding in order to remain covert and if the funding trail led directly back to the crime, this component would've unraveled in short order. the russians covered their tracks by funneling their
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money to shell companies using false identities. the russians 2016 covert influence campaign was not the only attempt by foreign actor to intervene in the u.s. election. less well-known is the case of a wealthy mexican businessman. he tried to buy influence in san diego through campaign spending and he funneled money through u.s. shell company to an independent expenditure committee that supported a candidate in the mayor's race. he was convicted along with his co-conspirators in 2017. shell companies are well- established threats of financial transparency and a threat to the transparency. virtual currencies are an emerging threat. despite efforts to increase regulation and supervision of exchanges, virtual currencies remain vulnerable. they also can be used by a foreign adversary to thwart campaign- finance laws.
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some virtual currencies promote onymity. they also facilitate -- there is no financial institution between the sender and receiver of funds. the absence of a financial intermediary makes it easier for a foreign adversary to conceal its location. it is vital that we build a financial transparency regime that enables the exposure and interdiction of -- not merely a regime tt enables investigation of them after the fact. as much as successful prosecutions can satisfy our sense of justice, convictions are poor remedy and our goal should be interdiction. i recommend three financial measures to support interdiction. first, we should ban anonymous companies, second, we should not delay enforcement of the due diligence rule for financial institutions, and third, we should require cross- border fund transfers to be reported. alone each of these
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would help to protect our elections from interference if implemented together each would strengthen the others. thank you for having here today and i look forward to answering questions that you might have. >> i am honored to be testifying on the critical topic of how to protect our elections from foreign interference. the relevance of virtual currencies is their frequent usage and attempt to shield the identities of those using them was just described potentially -- they need anonymity to appear to be valid members of this community and those virtual currencies are tailor-made for that. is important to the knowledge that virtual currencies are about much more than cryptocurrency's such as bitcoins. they include decentralized
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systems such as cryptocurrency's like bitcoin, as well as centralized systems, such as web money. there are thousands of the systems, although less than 100 are relevant. they do not stand in isolation, but are part of a thriving ecosystem of not only virtual currencies, but other digital stored value systems that cumulatively number in the thousands. russia has been able to leverage these virtual currencies and has not needed cryptocurrency's to influence our elections. facebook disclosed that it had discovered more than 3000 ads bought by 470 counts run by a russian troll farm reaching 11.4 million people. but how are they paid for? many of the ads placed by the russians aimed at influencing the election were paid for the russian centralized virtual
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currency kiwi. visa partnered with kiwi on a virtual wallet in 2011. there are 18million visa kiwi what accounts and they are an easy way for russians to send money internationally. without stronger identity attribution and understanding of the digital payment ecosystem, this will continue. another major centralized currency is web money. using well protected servers and not a public blockchain, the services cheap for russian funds to flow to hackers. in the past several years web money has become not only ubiquitous in russian language speaking countries, but from vietnam to mexico. these centralized virtual currencies meet not only legitimate needs, but our lifeblood of global organized crime.
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they are today being used by the services of hackers who are advertising their ability to influence elections. one of my private sector cyber warriors told me, identified two cyber espionage agents who post short messages that last about 1 to 2 hours and are deleted. they are calling for cutout hackers from anonymous circles to work as contract hackers for elections. we've seen some interesting posts inquiring on whether u.s. election systems are open or closed for their some nasty people there eyeballing these elections currently. many are advertising their ability to target candidates social media posts and the ability to sabotage them. for cryptocurrency, the greatest threat are using to influence other operations are the increasing number in the quiddity of privacy. these seek to evade efforts to
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identify their users to the blockchain and criminals are using them. these funds do not need to stay in their virtual currency borge and. digital money can move through huge matrix of exchangers. thousands are interconnected and do not necessarily meet any type of ky see. it is almost impossible to follow them through this matrix of exchangers. the not-for-profit that provides a model not just for education, where looking at how this can be used as a critically important way for -- it is essential that whatever purchases are made are based on a public-private partnership
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rather than a government only approach the problem. my recommendations revolve around identity. identity is the key to all of this. international corporation is critical in providing a cooperative environment through a law enforcement body, regulatory organization, focused on establishing identity and saving criminal virtual currency assets, this is how we will protect our institutions and industries from the illicit use of virtual currencies for implement the artist ads act, knowing your customer adherence should be required of advertisers. that does not currently exist. understanding where the money is coming from should be another requirement. and finally, the answers to this can be answered to the authentication reporting of identity. the approach cannot
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and other cryptocurrency's as there is a shadow financial system out of our control which every country and using systems that those meeting kyc, and we need to take -- while encouraging the growth of new systems that are governed by the rollbar. we must change with us. >> thank you for the opportunity to testify. my testimony today -- most people acknowledge that individuals and entities that contribute large sums of money to candidates, pax and parties,
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and politically active nonprofits gain influence with elected officials. concerns about the -- the federal election campaign act. disclosure requirements including prohibitions on donations of spending by foreign nationals was to dete the use of money to unduly influence or corrupt government and to assure a democratic system where the of its confidence. both the campaign finance limits and disclosure provisions have been undermined by decisions that now allow nominally independent super pacs and clinically nonactive nonprofits -- and if they so choose dark money organizations, primarily nondisclosing profits and super pacs that received donations from nondisclosing entities mean that voters will not know who is bombarding them with other political spendings.
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in particular, since the structure of limited liability companies -- without ever disclosing the source behind the money. whose influence on u.s. elections is under federal law privity. history is littered with illegal donations by foreign nationals laundering money through those who are legally eligible to contribute. evasions that have diminished public trust in the system and those serving in congress during the mid-1990s will recall the wrath of scandals associated with temps by foreign interests to inject funds into arican ections. eighy years after citizens united unleashed a flood secret money the
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potential for for money filtering into the political system has grown larger and given other attempts to meddle in elections more serious recent court decisions have had unlimited contributions from a large range of sources, individuals, and institutions are much more important. regulatory inaction has led to much less transparency -- it would be foolish, i think, to think that the same types of outside sources that can undermine the integrity and independence of our electol system two decades ago not be interested in more confident in their ability to manipulate electoral outcomes to favor their own interest stay. in 2012 crp began using form 990 tax forms to track the financial activities that --
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this is an alphabet soup of untraceable llcs prevent one roadblock in our research. in one case and erroneously entered employee identification number corresponded to social welfare organization that we later found listed the llc as a disregarded entity. that is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the parent group. we showed that these nonprofits tied closely -- had used the disk -- without their mistake, would not have been able to track any of the money coming into the nonprofits, which were spending tens of millions of dollars in elections. or how the nonprofits were doling out money to other places in the network and by forming the subsidiaries in delaware they ensure that very little information about any the people running llcs would
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be public. to give a more recent example, there still eight contribution to president trump that is essentially anonymous. it was formed just four months before it made the seven-figure donation to the inauguration. the address it listed is a virtual office and the only name on the document appears to be a paralegal at a law firm well known -- short of any inadvertent disclosure. a signed confession, or at least document given that anonymous money flows through the campaign-finance system, there is no way to know how much of this money might be coming from foreign sources, and if so, whether an individual -- that is the point about dark money. it keeps us uncertain about who is paying for our elections and what their motivations might be and if there foreign or
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domestic to a form of democratic self-government. for this reason taking steps to ensure transparency of political donations and spending is part -- is foundational to american sovereignty. >> it seems to me that who is giving the money and what the money is is the challenge here. of the two challenges, i think we could pass laws that will make it more obvious to the public about how the corporation gets its money. that is what we are trying to do here. but when it comes to the money itself, this is something that is new to me. so, mr. murray, how easy would it be for a foreign entity government -- and i will ask mr. scott dueweke the same thing, to follow virtual money
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into a shell corporation if russian never cooperated with us in terms of the transparency are looking for. do you need russia and china to make this work? >> no, jim, this is a sizable vulnerability and it is one that needs to be closed off not just for campaign-finance purposes, but for -- this is a vulnerability that undermines our anti-money-laundering regime and undermined -- >> but you don't need the cooperation of a foreign government to have the transparency? the one that mr. zwicky spoke of.
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you do not need their cooperation, whether it is to funnel money that you can easily do with other funds as well or from one individual to another. the aspect that is interesting -- criminal system such as web bunny that existed in russia them to be the primary money
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globally. sanctions, suddenly web money is almost a de facto part of their core financial system. it's in the light now. it's brought in. so that points to a fundmental almost development of a shadow economy, almost a shadow swip system that has been embraced by the russian government and the banks. >> what can we in the united states do for a system that benefits the russian government. >> it's difficult to do much about it directly because they are not going to cooperate. however, what you can do is what i described in my testimony, which is focus on identity. >> right. >> focus on these exchange points, right? >> who do you need cooperation from to get that?
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>> the exchangers primarily. investment yourself, he got out when it was 19,000. >> good. >>lip phone. >> if you were to buy bik coin, you would use a reputable company called coin base. they do a very strong know your customer vetting. they are not the problem. however, how do you get them in the fold. >> that's where some cooperation, i propose through a not for profit. >> right. >> that could do such a thing. >> you need russia's help to
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make that work. >> those that want to be part -- >> if you are not in it, maybe get pushed somehow? >> you could be excluded from the club. >> right. stick to it. >> exactly. you have those that are included and those that are excluded. >> i do agree with that. >> you think the european union would sign up for this pretty quickly. >> they have issued regulations at if union level, strength in regulations. this is something they take very seriously and something the united states has taken seriously and it's important to note our regulatory reach for our currency exchanger that serves u.s. customers extends beyond our borders. so in other words, if you have a virtual currency exchanger based in russia, they are forced on
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the banks act: and it's broad enforcement action against currency exchanger outside the united states. there is currently someone under arrest for running a virtual currency exchae that d not adhere to the ban secrecy act. >> okay. thank you. >> thank you very much. thank you to all the witnesses. >> john dean said there is a cancer on the presidency. i think it is a cancer on the dark money. and those that manipulate dark money and i am adamant that we need to clean that up. i want to make that point on the record. this is not that bill. we are trying to focus on not just -- not eliminating dirty special interest influence in
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politics, but at least eliminate dirty foreign special interest influence in our politics. that ought not to be too much to ask. and i can remember when i was floor managing the disclosed bill several years back as we were on the floor a story emerged in the news about a corporation that had been set up out of no place, given $5 million. dumped the $5 million into a political buy in a campaign, closed up shop, leaving only a lawyer behind who asserted attorney client pri and wouldn't talk -- privilege and wouldn't talk about what happened. so today nobody knows whose 5 million was got dumped into the election. and the quid pro quo, what was behind such a transaction. what we do know is behind that
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darkness could lurk a foreigner. that could just as easily be vladimir putin's $5 million as any american special interest 5 million. and until we have cleaned that up, i believe we are going to have a real problem on our hands. so we have two bills, one in this subcommittee that is bipartisan that would make it a felony for that lawyer who asserted attorney-client privilege, to knowingly have a foreign influence spend through the corporation. you would still have to prove it. you would probably say attorney-client privilege, but it's not just a black mark on his character, but potential click, click handcuffs moment for him. so that would be an incentive. that's one thing we are looking at and that's the bill specifically in this committee. over in finance we would be
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requiring that individual to certify that whoever gave that $5 million was not a foreign influence. and indeed to do due diligence in the shell corporation because people who play in this game can stack shell corporations like those russia stacked dolls when you open one shell corporation there is another shell corporation. oop, another shell corporation. and the easy situation for that lawyer is if it looks too smelly, don't take the money. don't take the money and i think the combination would be a powerful combination. so first of all, mr. murray, i appreciate your very simple recommendation by anonymous companies, i could not agree with you more. it's the direction the world is going, national security implications and we shouldn't be
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alagard as the city on the hill, but we are. tell me about the size of the industry of dirty shell corporation activities around the world as revealed, for instance, by the panama and paradise papers? we are not going to know it exactly because it's pretty dark itself, but just general sense of scale? >> thank you. senator, it's a massive industry. and, you know, i think -- >> virtually entirely up to no good. >> not entirely up to no good. >> virtually entirely up to no good. >> i think some important indicators, look at the o fact designations. you will see shell companies all over the world. right? that's absolutely no good. you will see shell companies all over the world. somebody had to set all those up. you look at the designations related to iran, you will see shell companies all over the world. those are up to no good.
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it's a very big industry. if you want to hide money somewhere in the world, there are a lot of options for you to do that. you could use the overseas british territories. you could use panama and london. >> and this industry is very capable of using tho s corporations to funnel money into american influence. >> people don't know what they are used for and that's really one of the issues here. >> yeah. >> is that they don't know. hear no evil and see no evil. >> my time is up, mr. chairman, one more question of mr. dueweke, you they this creates an opportunity for an anonymous means of payment by, for instance, your example, russia, to people who are hackers or trolls engaged in election influence and manipulation in the united states and to try to hide the connection back to russia
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because the money connection is harder to prove; is that correct? >> that is correct. >> would it be also possible for the crypto currency to be used for actual spending through shell corporations or other means where people actually put money into federal elections? >> you can't put a bip coin into a federal account, but you could wash it through an intermediary and then launder the trudeau in order. >> that is true. there is a global shell game that is being played now. this is tailor made for money laundering. you have all over the world, they don't ask questions, like those that set up shell companies don't ask questions. web money for bit coin, currency
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in and currency out and in between these virtual currencies that are impossible to track. >> thank you chairman. >> thank you, white house for another important hearing of this subcommittee. you have been doing terrific work and i want to commend senator white house for his persistent work on the disclose act and shell company act that he referenced. mr. murray, in your written testimony you talked how they are krilt cal and you highlight the finance act being discussed in the house and specifically stated the proposal for the anonymous u.s. companies to circumvent campaign laws and other finance threads. this is actually supported by delaware act. why do you think this is the
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most active approach to transparency. >> simply it bans the problem. it prohibits the problem . it's a direct attack on money laundering vulnerability and would do more than a single proposal to shell up the money laupderring in the eyes and -- laundering in the united states and shell off attacks. >> based on special council muller's investigation, we see three accepted money for lobbying as foreign agents without registeri their activities. flynn, mannford, trump campaign manager rick gates. why is it problematic for a foreign agent to be working on a u.s. presidential campaign and being paid by foreign entities without disclosing those foreign interests? >> well, i think the key there is the lack of disclosure and
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the lack of candor. you know, comingro the government not having been in government too long ago, you know, i know that one of the concerns with respect to security was always lack of candor because if someone discloses and you can see what they were up to in the past and may be up to now, you can take steps to mitigate that risk. but it's really the lack of candor that i think is important there. >> uh-huh. >> mr. dueweke, counsel muller's indictment of three companies, serves russian warfare through the united states through fictitious personas on social media platforms. we have had hearings on this. one american has pled guilty to identity fraud because he sold bank account numbers to the russian. >> how can that be used for foreign nationals to be used in
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elections. >> stolen bank account numbers is one layer and can be inserted into the process to hide the tracks of those that are moving money from one point to another. very simple and that additional node makes it harder to follow the money as it follows through this labyrinth. >> senate murray, in august 2016 sent a letter to the then oversight subcommittee, expressing our grave concern regarding potential foreign interference in our election, we were shocked candidate trump would hatch i see opposing candidate's e-mails and asked for a criminal hearing and discuss foreign entities that pose a threat to our election. do you think our laws are sufficient to protect us from
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things financed from foreign governments? >> no, i don't. you know, i think there are structural gaps in our laws, which i have covered in my written testimony. i think that there are also gaps in the criminal statutes. and i think that the legislation the white house mentioned during his introduction would be a step to proving up this and shoring up our system. >> thank you, my last question. just last month reported on august 2016 meeting that donald trump jr. held in the tower for the crown prince of saw die arabia and israeli social media specialist linked to israel intelligence linked a social media plan. mr. trump didn't provide information about this interview despite his being specifically
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asked about any foreign government or foreign nationals assistance to the trump campaign and as late as june 2018 we are learning of previously undisclosed meetings between the trump campaign and foreign entities. would it be lawful for the foreign national to provide services to support a u.s. presidential campaign? >> senator, i'm not an election lawyer or lawyer at all, so i should probably try not to practice law without a license, but i would again point back to your comments made by my colleagues throughout the table, we are lacking wish an interest in being forthright and candid of obvious contracts of interest that could imperil or independence and kovrnty and
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democrat process. so at the very least, unwise, if not illegal. >> thank you for that testimony. and thank you to the whole panel for your testimony. >> thank you. and i assure you senator krumholz is careful because she is from the state of minnesota. owatonna and has that prudence with her. so thank you for being here. my first question is very focused when i started my morning today with former director cherdof talking about the election to come in 2020 and i wonder if you agree with director coats who testified under oath here, president trump's national security director, national director of intelligence, he said we expect that russia will be bolder and
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more disruptive in their cyber operations during the next year. do you believe you are going to see continued attempts at foreign interference in our elections? >> i think there is no question we are going to be seeking russian attempts -- seeing russian attempts in the election. presented by the director and that's a key issue and i think we should trust our intelligence committee on that question. number two, i think we can see the evidence. we can see the troll fronds at work. we can see the evidence. number three, i think the russians were pretty happy with the outcome. covert influence is not necessarily about pushing an election in a particular way or electing a particular candidate. the goals can be much more modest than that. a campaign can be successful in discord. i know they think their system
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will never be as good as ours and the only way they can catch up is to make our system worse because they know theirs isn't going to get better. >> okay. thank you. ms. com hose com hose, you do a -- com hose, you do a lot of tracking. >> upholding disclosure by a vote 8 to 1, guaranteeing the regimen and infrastructure was there to guarantee its implementation. so i think that was unfortunate and now it falls to our regulatory bodies, federal election commission, as well as congress of course -- >> how would you assess the job congress is doing in changing the laws to meet this threat?
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>> i regret that again, because of the seriousness of the discussion today and its import for the health of our democracy, i regret it is not enough to protect us. >> and you think the rest of the world notices that when we are not doing much. >> i think they never stop noticing the weaknesses that have at various times cropped up. and it's been a bit of kind of two steps forward, one step back chase to stop -- to fill the gaps in -- in the ability to undermine the system. >> [indiscernible] gotten some money out for our state elections, which is good, a couple million and that's great. that's going out now. but what concerns me is, one, what you raised and the topics
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on this and how many can be hidden and i have a bell on credit cards. you can do that and i will ask you questions about this shell corporations purchasing reals date and that is a big concern for me and i will ask you later, we have half of homes in the u.s. worth millions of dollars using shell companies. this morning someone came up to me afterwards and said they were concerned that was a wayf funneling money. would you agree with that without answering in-depth ? >> yes, i agree we should be concerned about shell companies purchasing real estate at the rate they are. i think there are better methods. >> and my last question i want
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to ask you, mr. dueweke, we know in addition to the 21 states that russia attempted to hack into their voter systems, getting as f in illinois as the voter registration info, we know they hacked into one presidential campaign and as we learn more and more, the republican primary, which i think is important for our republican colleagues, i know senator graham understands this being in the race himself with a big front row seat, but they were messing around in that as well and it shows it was not just a one party versus the other and as we go with 1.4 billion having been spent online on political ads and a projected 3 to 4 billion in 2020, we have to change in social media. facebook is putting up the ads,
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which is incredibly helpful and twitter is doing more, but those companies have come around to support. could you briefly explain why it's important to have national rules of the road in place? >> national rules of the road are needed for this. i worked in republican presidential primaries back in the '80s for jack hemp's presidential campaign and it was hard. there were a lot of rules of the road. now it seems many of those rules have eroded or become irrelevant. the types of rules that are needed i think actually need to extend further because of the degree of the information campaign that is have been waged against the american people through -- not directly through political ads, but other influence operations that are meant to find our divisions, to enflame passions, just like the federalist papers pointed to
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about the real dangers of this democracy of the time. they persist and become all the more relevant and evident. so i think this has to get down to identity. we have to be able to identify the people that are fanning these flames, whether it be through something direct lick the ads act -- like the ads act and identify the advertisers that are buying these ads, as well as have some kind of way to identify those who are fanning these flames, who are doing these, call it safe news, call it what you want. but there are a lot of levers that are being played in american society right now and it 's being done under misattribution, under anonymity and that's what needs to have some mechanism. anonymity should always be there for people who want to use it. but there has to be
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consequences. right? if you are going to use it -- you can't use anonymity when buying a house, so you can't use it to influence an election. i want to ask a few wrapup questions. i think based on our conversation an answer to all these questions from all the witnesses is going to be yes, but i don't want to take anything for granted. let me first ask do you all agree there is a national security dimension to this problem? >> yes. >> yes. >> okay. let the record reflect three yeses. do you all agree the anonymity of shell corporations is a channel for mischief by bad actors? >> yes. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes, yes, yes. do you all agree foreign entities are all willing and able to use those channels to do
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their mischief. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes. >> do you believe congress is trying to bring a remedy to this problem. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes. >> let me close my time by thanking again our chairman for doing this. we began these hearings with a review of some of the expert understanding i would say of the russian influence play book. we have considered the csis kremlin play book report and the atlanta council kremlin troejen horse report and center for american progress to the hudson institute at its kletocracy as all flagged this as an important
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national security problem. i think having brought attention to it early on, we are now in a position to have a recommendation to our colleagues to begin doing things about it with any luck, in time to deter the misconduct in the upcoming election. i appreciate very much how chairman graham has led the subcommittee. i think this is real progress and i appreciate it very much, very much. >> thank you. i will return the compliment, you have obviously done your homework and the combination of bad things are almost endless and it seems to me we need to up our game. the record will remain open for one week. the hearing is adjourned.
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. c-span's washington journal live every day with news and policy issue that is impact you. coming up wednesday morning inside elections reporter leah reviews the results of tuesday night's primary and runoff contest in seven states. then oklahoma republican congressman tom cole on immigration policy and the house republican agenda. mrit ka's ted hessen discusses the travel ban and dan swasey
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talks about the policy. lye 7 eastern wednesday morning. join the discussion. . >> here is a look at what's live on the c-span network wednesday. the house is back at 10 a.m. eastern. at noon more work on 2019 defense department spending. they are also expected to work on immigration legislation this week. that's on c-span. on c-span 2 the senate continues debate on the farm bill and on c-span 3, housing and urban development secretary ben carson testifies at an oversight hearing at 10 a.m. eastern. in the afternoon ceo of delta airlines speaks at the national press club and then president trump's pick will take place at the veterans committee at 2:30 eastern. . >> this past week with the help of our cable partners the c-span
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bus travelled to haynes, alaska. the bus continues its trip through alaska to our next stop in fair banks. >> this is especially popular for alaskaens, cci is proud to carry c-span for a number of reasons, especially for their education, for lesson plans and handouts to timely teachable videos and educator conferences, the c-span classroom offers so many resources to teachers and adds a great deal of value to classrooms. >> thank you for being part of it, bringing your awesome bus to fair banks. the tour of that was incredible. i heard stories of driving up to elk hand and things they saw on the way up to alaska was a nice trip. i have driven it a few times myse and it is an awesome trip
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and we are so glad your bus came here and using it as a tool to bring fair banks nationwide. >> c-span is 37 years old. it's much older than me. >> that's a joke, by the way. what i appreciate about c-span is it is not partisan. you watch the sparring and delegations talk back and forth. it's extremely informative and educational. one of the things on the bus and i'm a tech geek, so i hope they take me with them because i would spend hours on that bus. but if you look at the video screens, they are interactive, people can learn and kids can learn about government. government doesn't have to be a bad word. >> be sure to join us july 21st and 22nd we will feature our visit to alaska. watch our alaska weekend on
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c-span, or listen with the c-span radio app. >> president trump post hue mousily offered the award to guard lincoln in order, first lieutenant conner was honored for his bravery for placing himself in the line of fire to save his battalion from troops on january 24st, 1945, his widow colleen conner accepted the medal.


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