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tv   Citizen Protest Movements Congress  CSPAN  July 21, 2018 8:30am-10:01am EDT

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-- this building is a good representation of alaska, i think. collegial routinely with membes of the other body and the executive branch. it is a very modest representation that fits with alaska values. they want to get the best for their buck. a good representation of the history of that era, the 1920's, 1930's, a good fit for the alaska capital. announcer: tour staff recently traveled to alaska to learn about the rich history. learn more about alaska and other stops on the tour, at www.c-span.org/citiestour. you're watching american history
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tv, all weekend every weekend on c-span3. announcer: next on american history tv, current and former members of congress and a student and teacher who were present during the school shooting ottmar josh at the -- during the shooting at parkland high school in florida, discuss citizen movements and their influence on policy makers. the panel compares the 1960's civil rights movement with more recent protests and they discussed the tragedy at parkland high school and the movement that followed. this archives event is about 90 minutes. >> citizen engagement and civic literacy have been woven into the work we do at the national archives. our mission statement declares that we strive to cultivate public participation. we believe in the importance of public access to government -- government records and such access strengthens democracy by allowing americans to claim their rights of citizenship, hold their government accountable, and understand their history so they can
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participate more effectively in their government. the records we preserve along to -- belong to all americans may have the right to examine them and use them. the constitution of the united states, which we display in the rotunda, proclaims the primacy of the people in the opening words, we the people. another document has many examples of we the people, how we have asserted our rights come -- campaigned for justice, and petitioned our government. all of us up the national -- at the national archives take our roles as caretakers of america's records very seriously and we are proud the work we do every day preserves our documentary heritage for generations to come. i will turn you over to martin frost of the united states association of former members of congress who will introduce tonight's panelist. martin frost served 26 years as a congressman from the 24th totrict of texas from 1979
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2005. during that time, he served eight years in the house democratic leadership, four years as the democratic congressional campaign committee, and four years as chair of the house democratic caucus. he was a member of the house rules committee and the house budget committee. since leaving congress he served four years as chair of the national endowment for democracy and is the incoming president of the u.s. association of former members of congress. he is a professor in george washington university graduate school of political management, and holds journalism and history degrees from the university of missouri and a law degree from georgetown. ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, martin frost. [applause] rep. frost: thank you, david. it is good to be back. the former members of congress in partnership with the archives has a series of events like this. you all have been great to help us put these on. i think people here tonight will
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find it interesting, both people watching it, streaming and online and people in the audience. before we hear from the truly outstanding panelist to panelists whoo -- volunteered their time to share their personal stories of civic engagement with you tonight, i would like to share a quick word about our association, the former members of congress. as fmc, we bring together a bipartisan group of over 600 former representatives and senators who worked together in a bipartisan manner on a wide variety of projects. our mission strengthens the work of the current congress by promoting collaborative approaches to policy making while deepening understanding of our democratic system and encouraging public service. we have become extremely concerned about the lack of civic education in this country. whether you agree or disagree with our panelists on the issues they advocate, their engagement as citizens is based on civic education they have learned and especially the engagement we see from our guests today.
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i am going to walk through who is on the panel and then they will come in at once. our panel will look to examine how civil rights to parkland, individuals from different generations, backgrounds, and platforms have taken a stand on issues near and dear to their hearts. all while becoming active in -- and vocal citizens we ask our audience respect the discussion. it will focus on the issues of civic learning and engagement, not about particular issues like gun control or race relations. it is in the interest of time and given how large our panel is as evening, we have asked you to write down any questions you may have for our panelists on note cards provided for you. staff members will circle the auditorium and collect those questions later in the program.
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finally, if what our panelists shares tonight resonates with you, i encourage you to visit former members of congress websites. find out more about our programming. having said that, it is my great pleasure to introduce, to recognize, the moderator for tonight's discussion, former congressman from california, jane harman, one of the truly outstanding members of congress that i served with. jane became the first woman director, president, and ceo of the woodrow wilson center after serving nine terms in the house of representatives. her dedication to public service is exemplary. she served in president carter's administration, was a member of the house armed services -- homeland security and intelligence committees and is recognized worldwide as an expert on security and public policy issues. jane will be the guide during the conversation of how citizens of our country have helped shape our democracy. joining her are tonight's panelists.
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washington, d.c. delegate in the house of representatives, eleanor norton will be one of those panels. congresswoman norton, in addition to have serving 14 terms in the house of representatives, came into public light as a civil rights and feminist leader and a tenured professor of law. a third-generation washingtonian, she spent her legal career arguing cases protecting women's rights, civil rights, and free speech. also on the panel will be former tri whosman tim pi represented wisconsin six -- for six congressional district for 18 terms. that is a long time. until his retirement from the u.s. house of representatives at the end of 2000 he was a senior member of both the transportation and infrastructure committees.
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known for his creative solutions to government problems, he preserved legislative issues in several areas including student loan reform, the federal highway program, federal water project, texan and welfare reform, and health care. he will bring the perspective of a long-term republican member of congress who had to face the same type of lobbying the democratic members face in dealing with issues facing our country. then is sarah lerner, a teacher at marjory stoneman douglas high school. she teaches english, journalism, and advises. this is her 16th year of teaching. she has been at marjory stoneman douglas high school since 2014. she has received honors from the florida scholastic association, the summit association, national scholastic press association, as well as the columbia scholastic press association.
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the four year books she has produced at the high school have all been nationally recognized. they have also been entered into the wallsworth gallery of excellence. as we all know she watched over 15 students in a locked classroom as a gunman attacked her school last february. last but not least is rain who just finished her junior year at marjory stoneman douglas high school and parkland. she has been on the yearbook staff for the past three being as photo editor the last two years. she will continue as photo editor and become the editor in chief. along with her work is yearbook -- as yearbook editor, rain has taken five advanced placement classes, has been involved in national honor society, and the spanish club. she plans to study photojournalism in college, the photographs she made of the classmates in the hours before the attack on her school are
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simply stunning and have received national attention. it is my privilege to have you all on the stage with us this evening. please join us in welcoming this outstanding panel as they enter the hall. [applause] disappeared. i hope the microphone is on. can everyone hear me? good evening. i'm jane harman. this is an exciting panel. i gather we will be joined by tch from theted due parkland district. if he comes, and if he wants to, we will add him to our happy group. he has stories, obviously, to tell. let me make a few opening
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comments. then you will hear, i think, an amazingly interesting set of stories from activists who were and are extremely effective. the last figure will be tim petri. you, as a former member of congress, he will talk about the ways in which congress receives information or does not receive information. some of the lessons learned. it is a pleasure to participate in an event with the national archives. i was realizing how long it has been since i have been here. the documents in this place show us all why this democratic with a small d, experiment and -- experiment in america has been so successful and is so important. similarly, congress is part of that experiment.
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as the article one branch of government, there are three branches of government, article one is congress, article does go is -- article 2 is the executive and article three, is a court. article one means congress has to be first. has to lead. sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. these stories will help illuminate some of the better times in the united states congress. i would say. i don't know -- i hope i don't offend my dear friend eleanor. this is not one of the better times. it has nothing to do with her personal ability which is enormous. it does have to do with the ability of the institution as an institution. to get things done. toxic partisanship is a big problem. i think we all pay a price for that, including the people who work there. we will tell some of the good stories tonight. the way we will do this, and martin said this, is within a historical context.
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we will start with eleanor's stories, not because she may be one of the -- a person with more life experience on the stage, along with tim and me, but because -- [laughter] i didn't mess that up too bad but in terms of timing, the activism that she first engaged in before she ran for congress and still engages in came first. we will go into that, we will then -- i may ask a few questions along the way. then we are taking written questions from you which will be given to me. i will be happy to ask them. just a few more points. one, the importance of bipartisanship. though i am a democrat, i have always called myself a charter member of the bipartisan party since what mattered to me, and i think what matters to all of us, in congress was putting the country first.
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sadly, the business model of congress now does not do that. it is not the people. very good people serve in congress in my view, in both parties. very good staff serves in congress. in both parties. but the problem is that the goal of the business model, rather than solving problems is to blame the other side for not solving problems. as a bipartisan here, i will say that both parties play this game. the country loses. if you are bipartisan these days, that means you get a primary challenge. it is very unfortunate for all of us that that seems to be the model. all of us can change it if we are active, this is the point, and pitch the right messages to the right people in both parties. i think we will learn that. congress also is not, i would say, a learning institution.
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why is that? people are too busy. i was visiting a senior member of the senate today and he said thanks for coming up here -- i don't have time to learn about this issue. the issue i was talking about, you might be interested, was about a summit that was convened by the trump administration last june. a year ago. vice president pence went and john kelly who was then the secretary of homeland security went, as did the head of the inter-american development bank and others. the summit was held in florida. the point of this summit was to figure out how the united states could help the governments of the central american countries which are the drivers of this migration through mexico into the united states. that was as we all know, the top of the news for the last week. the trump administration had a
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good idea, invest in developing political capacity in these countries, help reduce corruption and crime from the drug cartels, and stimulate business investment in these countries. why wouldn't that be a good idea? who would be against that? nobody. congress funds some of that. however, the summit occurred a year ago. there was a report with recommendations. no one is focusing on it. i went to see a senior member of the senate to suggest that perhaps this person who has jurisdiction over aspects of latin america in his role on the senate of foreign relations committee, might hold a hearing or come down to the wilson center. this nonpartisan think tank i had. address this issue. it just has not been addressed. it should be focused on. if done right, and it was -- the administration's initiative, it certainly would add some value
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and help the country solve a very serious problem. so, this evening, as you heard from martin frost, we are not debating the merits of the various issues you will hear about. we are probing the advocacy that was behind presenting these issues to congress and how those who advocated effectively did it and how perhaps what they did would have to be done a little differently in this century than it was done in the last century. we will start with congresswoman eleanor holmes norton who i met in her advocacy days, way back when. i just make a point, i think martin was saying that there is 600 former members of congress. did you know that since the beginning of time, there have been about 10,500 members of congress?
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guess how many of them were female? under 500. that is still the current statistic. so it is with great pride that i would like to welcome one of my former sisters. eleanor holmes norton. [applause] rep. norton: thank you, jane. rep. harman: and the question, eleanor, is you were a civil rights advocate in various guises. what turns you on to the issue, plural, what did you do, and how -- looking back on your own activism, how do you measure your effectiveness? rep. norton: it is important to recognize that congress is not a self-executing body. that puts a great burden on the citizens. if you want anything done
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through law, in your country. i am a native washingtonian. a third-generation washingtonian. grew up in the city. was one of the last graduates of a segregated school system. because brown v. board of education came just as i was graduating from high school. my own experience with segregation, not only discrimination, everything was segregated in the nation's capital, except for buses. downtown, and the department african-americans could not try on clothes. this was a southern city. having grown up with segregation, i was really ready for the civil rights movement. a lot has to do with your moment in time.
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i was going to college, just as the civil rights movement was bursting forward. particularly, as a student when i was a member of what was known as the student nonviolent coordinating committee, it had civil rights movement which had six major organizations of which snic is one. my colleague, john lewis, and i were both in snic at the same time. it gives me great joy to see students, even younger than we were taking the initiative on a major issue in our country. i must say, given their age, high school students, the first time i have ever seen high school students essentially start a national movement.
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we in sncc were part of a movement -- and overall movement, we had the march on washington, that was led by adults, what happened in parkland florida is very different. these students came to washington and had a big demonstration. they were in charge. they have stimulated one of the toughest issues to get the congress to focus on. in fact, if i may say so, i can think of no tougher issue. yet, if you had a pen and you pricked it, you really ought to be able to do something about it. for example, -- and there are few statistics like this, about 97% of the american people get -- forgo background checks for guns, that is not hard. it says something about the way our country was set up, that it
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is hard to get even easy things done. and the way our country was set up, our founders who did not much believe that the government could do very much was to make it difficult for the central government to do much. that was back then in the 18th century. and 19th century. but when you have to pass bills unlike the way bills are passed in europe where a parliamentary system where whoever runs the government makes the laws, as they are did -- has the majority, if you have a different system that says even if you want to get a bill where 97% of the american people are for you, you have to go through the house, you have to go through the senate, they each have cumbersome rules. then you have to get the president to sign it. there is something new on the scene.
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that is this student movement. essentially, the challenge for the house of representatives where i serve, is can they get the congress to do what nobody before them has been able to do? they have longevity, they have not just had a demonstration here and got everybody excited. so, i would answer that question, even given how difficult it is to get things done in congress, that the students led by the parkland, florida sister students will show the country that young people can make the old-fashioned congress do something important in our country. and that is pass commonsense gun safety laws. i very much thank them for their leadership.
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rep. harman: i appreciate that. you are pretty effective too. we will hear from the parkland teacher and student in a minute. eleanor, back in the day, john lewis and you and others were extraordinary leaders at a young age. for congress to do something about racial discrimination. and congress actually did a lot about racial discrimination back in the day. president lyndon johnson, particularly cared about this. i remember this. in the early 1970's, i was a staffer in the senate. i was a chief counsel of the senate subcommittee on constitutional rights. we were able to extend and expand the voting rights act. it was tricky because the chairman of the senate judiciary committee at the time was a segregationist. we did not do this by ourselves.
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there was pressure from outside. in your sncc days, what did you do then to get congress to move? rep. norton: as a young person with segregation still in place, you mentioned the voting rights act there is also -- that is 1965 voting rights act. there is a 1964 sybil's right -- civil rights act. -- civil rights act. i was in college in time to head the equal employment opportunity commission that i was in the streets trying to get. there was a 1968 fair housing act. rep. harman: you were in the streets. rep. norton: in a different time. rep. harman: you took enormous personal risks. walking across the bridge, i think most people know that story. john, were you there, when john lewis? rep. norton: i didn't. i was among the students sat in. i would not want you to think the risks were very great.
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if they were so great, we were young and foolish enough not to regard sitting in a place that you were not supposed to be as a risk. that does say something about our country. that even with segregation in place, we believed that we would somehow survive, what we called nonviolent resistance. i have enormous -- the parkland students are far more sophisticated. they have something we didn't have -- social media. rep. harman: they will talk about that. rep. norton: i am on every social media platform, there was no such thing. imagine what they are going to be able to do with this issue that we had to do by putting our bodies on the line and say, you have to arrest me because that is the only way i can make a point. rep. harman: how did you -- not everybody did what you did. even people growing up in the segregated town or a segregated
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south. who were the victims of discrimination would not necessarily put their bodies at risk. what motivated you personally to do this? how did you have the courage? rep. norton: i think growing up in the nation's capital, a segregated city, and understand it was a city where black people worked in the bowels of the government. that meant they had to have some college education. there was some great consciousness if you grew up in the city. i am the great great granddaughter of a runaway slave from virginia. that consciousness, which is replicated among african-americans in the district, people who had a high consciousness did not live in the old south, which would have been even more risky. but lived in the nation's capital. so in a sense, i just could not wait for the civil rights movement.
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i was ready for it before it happened. that has a lot to do with growing up in the city where we are now. in the nation's capital. rep. harman: it has a lot to do with activism. you could not wait. you had great opportunities. you went to yale law school. do i remember this right? you have this fancy law degree. back in the day, women lawyers were not getting a lot of job offers but you probably had a cushy option, and instead you chose activism. rep. norton: by that time the civil rights -- that is why i say young and foolish. [laughter] rep. harman: i am not letting her off the hook. what she did was very courageous. i am sure everyone agrees with me. we will talk about this issue to. -- too. rep. norton: what had not been done, there had not been an
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activist movement since the labor movement. that was before i was born. so the country was not used to seeing people get up on their hind legs and demand something. and expect to get some response. who does that? who does that, are people who are desperate enough. you really don't have other options. who does it first? i think that is an important point to bear in mind. it is not unusual for activism to begin among the very young. not people who have children, people who have responsibilities. but people who if you will forgive me, have nothing to lose. and who make it possible for the rest of us to have everything to gain. i was born at the right time. to be in such a generation. it has helped me prepare for everything else i have done in my life. including run for congress. rep. harman: there we go. if you had not done all this
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crazy stuff, maybe you would not have had the gumption to run for congress, which is a pretty big move, in case anyone missed it. you put yourself out there and even if you have a yale degree and someone feels comfortable saying, i don't like you. i don't want you. it is not exactly a warm and fuzzy experience. to be merchandise and have people have opinions that may not be based on your merit. i'm sure other people love you and you may not deserve that either, my point is it is a brave thing to do to be an activist. it is a brave thing to do. you were very effective at it. then you parlayed that into an extremely long, so far, political career where you also are out there doing great things. i just think we will move on here, but i personally want to salute you. [applause] rep. norton: thank you. rep. harman: thank you very much.
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[applause] now, we're going to talk to sarah and rain. there he is. this is peter deutch, congressman peter deutsch. >> ted. >> congressman ted deutch, who i know well. [laughter] in my defense, this guy used to be tom petri and now he is tim petri. i deserved to be confused. rep. deutch: high. that -- hi. delightedn: we are you are here. ted is the congressman for sarah and rain. we are going to hear their stories and now that you're here, i wish you would comment on it. what we are trying to talk about is activism. where does it come from? how do you do it effectively? we are addressing the gun safety issue, but we are not debating the gun safety issue. we are discussing activism. as eleanor was saying before you got here, it was an astonishingly impressive performance.
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performance is not fair. astonishingly impressive act from the heart of students and teachers, who went through many absolutely horrific experience. not the first and not the last in our country. but the most recent horrific experience. i don't know which one of you wants to start? please, talk about not just the incident and what you did, but how you personally -- let's start with you, sarah. you barricaded yourself in a room and save a bunch of kids. -- and saved a bunch of kids. how did you do that? ms. lerner: well, it was a normal wednesday at school. i was giving a quiz to my seniors in my english class. the fire alarm went off. we all looked at each other in confusion because we had just had a fire drill in the morning. they were taking a quiz on 1984,
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very happy to leave the room. i'm like, let's go. i grab my phone and my keys. we went outside. i had about 25 students with me. we heard what sounded like firecrackers. then i saw people running, and knew it could not have been firecrackers. i got back upstairs to my classroom, i ended up with five from my class, everyone else had scattered like cockroaches. i had 10 come to me from the classroom next door because their teacher who is a friend of mine had gone to another classroom for safety. i let them in, i locked the door, and we sat in the room and we waited and waited and waited. we were in the room for about 2.5 hours. until the swat team came in. eight very large, but very nice, but very large armed men. let themselves into my classroom.
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i'm 38 now, i was 37 when it happened, i know i look like i'm 12, but i had to identify myself as a teacher in the classroom. i had to open the closet so they could see what was inside. we grabbed whatever belongings they would allow us to grab and kind of serpentined through campus to avoid the building and go a different route. we made it off campus. we were kind of shuttle-bussed to a local hotel where we met with police and fbi. i gave my statement. then i met up with my husband and son. my parents had my daughter. rep. harman: was your son at the same school? ms. lerner: my son just finished sixth grade. he is in the middle school next door. while i am sitting in my classroom, once i realized what was going on, i sent a text to my husband and mom.
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"there is an active shooter on campus. i'm ok." then maybe 5, 10 minutes later, my son texted me, "mom, i'm scared, what is going on? we are on lockdown." to tell your son, i'm ok, i'm not shot, is horrible. no one should have to say that at all. he had never been on a lockdown before. i needed to assure him that i was ok and i was safe and he was where he needed to be and he was in the safest place. listen to your teacher. do what you need to do. i am ok. anyone who has ever had my phone number was texting me. most of the information i was receiving was coming from the outside. that is how i found out that he had been apprehended. i didn't know. all i had was my cell phone, my computer was on my desk on the other side of the room. trying to get information and piece things together, i do not
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-- i didn't understand the full scope of what was happening. for hours, days to come. rep. harman: but you certainly understood that 15 people in your charge were depending on you to do the right thing. and you did the right thing. ms. lerner: yeah. rep. harman: ok, that was that horrible day. with your own kids, i absolutely cannot imagine. i have four children. -- i absolutely can imagine. i have four children. one of them was in school on 9/11. i was a fairly senior member of congress then, trying to reach her on my cell phone and could not because of the cell towers that had crashed. it was terrifying. absolutely terrifying. that was day one. since then, i don't know how many days it has been, i'm sure you all know. ms. lerner: i don't know the exact count, but it is over four months. rep. harman: but for four months, now you are an activist on this issue. how did you decide on day two and three that you are not just going to have done the right
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thing on day one, but that you were going to be active about this issue? ms. lerner: i have always been very politically aware and very politically active in my own right. very much a feminist, always looking out for human rights. when everything happened, i knew, as a journalism teacher and a journalist, i had a responsibility to do right by my students and our community. i have lived in coral springs, which is the neighboring town, since 1995. i'm a product of the broward county school system. i know these kids. i am one of these kids. i needed to do right by them. i have been very active on twitter for years. really just posting about food and my kids. and funny things. stupid memes. [laughter] i used to be hilarious on twitter. now i am very serious, with political stuff.
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i knew that for the handful of people that were following me, they were seeing what i was saying and i did not take that responsibility lightly. beyond that, as the yearbook advisor, and a journalism teacher, i had to -- whenever we would go back to school, i had to finish out the year. i had to teach my journalism kids. we were in the middle of our social media unit when everything happened. i had a yearbook to finish. everything happened. i knew that i needed to work on things at school with the students as far as social media and the journalism end of things. but i had strong feelings, too. i had things that i wanted to say. the day after the incident, i cannot tell you -- i felt like i was on a media tour. i can't tell you how many reporters, shows, and radio podcasts i did.
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the day before, i was just a regular mom, teacher in florida. now, msnbc is calling, cnn is calling, i was on npr. i felt like i was all over the place. because of what happened, but i was using that to start to make change. i didn't think of myself as an activist at that moment, but i knew something needed to change. rep. harman: but you became that. you stepped into the moment. just the way eleanor did. different set of circumstances, but not really. bad stuff happened. she is there. she has a reason to be hurt by that bad stuff. and she had the personal courage and the passion to get involved. let's turn to rain. for you, this has to be harder. you are still in high school.
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your classmates were killed and wounded. our condolences, obviously, to them. i am sure you knew them. what was it like for you and what helped you? because you would think, i can't imagine at your age whether i would -- i would not have had the composure that you have. rain: first off, thank you. i like to start off talking about the beginning of that day. it was valentine's day. as we all know. i don't like to forget that it was on valentine's day because the day started out to be a great day. it was valentine's day. being a photo editor, being in yearbook, i took the duty of taking valentine's day pictures. i was at lunch. i was taking pictures of emma gonzalez. i don't know if you guys know that name. [laughter] rain: she had a table set up with the gay straight alliance club. she started giving out love proclamations. these little pieces of paper and
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you can sign your name. while i was taking pictures of her, one of my best friends in yearbook, she signed her name and put my name down for the proclamation of love. silly things like that. it was lighthearted and people were giving out flowers. before we left lunch, i saw a close friend of mine, victoria gonzalez, and the best buddies club at our school, they sell one dollar valentine's day gifts. i saw her buying gifts for her -- i can't say boyfriend, because she does not like the word boyfriend. she refers to him as her soulmate. rep. harman: it is high school. [laughter] rain: they never say boyfriend and girlfriend, because they said it was so much more than that. [laughter] her boyfriend was joaquin oliver. sorry for getting emotional. rep. harman: it's ok. rain: sorry.
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i took pictures, i went back upstairs to the yearbook room, finished my lunch, and that was it. on my way to fourth period, i saw my other friend natasha, also in yearbook. she came up to me and was about to give me a hug. i took a picture of her. she was holding a heart balloon. that was the day. i was stressed out because i had to do an essay after school. that was my biggest worry. oh my god, how am i going to do that i have to make everything up? the teacher who had to leave her classroom to seek safety, that was my teacher. i was right next to ms. lerner. right next door. my teacher, the ap environmental biology teacher, she had the door open because she wants air. actually david hogg is in my class. in the front, he was sitting in
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the front. did you hear that? i was sitting in the back, i wasn't paying attention. there was 20 minutes left of school. let's go. a split second after he said that, the alarm went off. we go down the stairs. just as she explained, the pops went off. i disappointed myself because i did not react quick enough. i was in such denial for such a long time, not just then, but hours after it even happened. i turned around and i looked at my teacher. where do i go? i kept walking straight in the -- and the culinary teacher dragged all of us in, even two other teachers. there were about almost 30, 40, i -- i can't remember -- ms. lerner: 65. rain: we were crammed. i remember a girl in the back was having a panic attack. she couldn't breathe. i remember someone coming in saying don't worry, it is just a drill.
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i just calm myself down. i was like, "guys, it's fine, we will be fine." slowly, i started getting text messages. then i got one from natasha who i took a picture of. one of our friends named isabel got shot. at first i was like, what? this isn't -- then i got calls from my family. i got a call from my brother who is a senior at the school. he was one of the first kid to run. the desperation in his voice. it stunned me in that i -- i was telling myself it was a drill. i was still in denial. my parents called me, i'm talking to my mom and saying, i am fine. i say my friend isabel got shot and my mom is asking me, "is she going to be ok?" i paused because i didn't know. i didn't know anything. i started crying. that is when it finally hit me.
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we spent much more time, sitting for hours and one student takes out a laptop he has and he turns it on to the news. we see footage of kids coming out -- it says at least 22 injured. still in denial, all of us. they said, that is probably kids injured because they started running and got trampled on. it's fine. then they started comparing this to columbine. we were like, columbine? that can't be true. time goes by. eventually a swat team comes in. i run out of school and walked towards my mom. we go home. going back to social media, it was the first thing i did when i went back home. i tweeted out, i said it, "i am heartbroken. i don't know what is happening. i love you guys." then i started seeing more and more footage. my friends, videos of my friends
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kneeling -- it was horrifying. hearing the constant updates. so-and-so is missing. so-and-so is injured. i did not contact one of my best friends because everything was happening so fast. she is one of my close neighbors. i went to her doorstep and i was like, is mattie ok? i knocked on her door. there was no answer. i looked around. i saw that there were lights. i was confused. then i went back and was like, she is probably fine. she is probably fine. she's probably also confused. same as i am. i go back on twitter and i refresh my feed. the first thing i see is a picture of mattie with her mom. it is a post from a family friend of mattie's saying please pray for mattie, she got shot three times. she needs to undergo surgery. later that night, i learned she was shot three times through her stomach and lungs.
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she broke five ribs and shattered three of them. one bullet went through her arm straight out. then i started texting her mom and i asked, "is she going to be ok?" she said the doctors expected a full recovery. going back to how i took photos that day. a week after everything happened, we had an orientation where we went back to school to receive our belongings we left in the classrooms and talk with our teachers, friends, the principal. i had left my camera in my bag. i was not going to run with it. i didn't know what to do. the first thing i did was look at the pictures i took. you say activism. i think there are so many different ways to be an activist. you can tweet, speak it, art. i used my craft, photography, as my way of protest, almost. i posted those photos of them. it got a lot of attention on twitter.
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people realized the innocence we had in all of us that day, how it was ripped away from us. i always compare that event to saying, it is a huge before and after in my life. those photos were my last account of the before. again, i'm really proud of my peers. none of us expected this. i felt the first day was just complete confusion. the next day was grief. then with this whole never again thing trending -- i didn't know what was going on. they sent out reminding text. everyone tweet never again at 3:00. ok. i tweeted at 3:07 p.m., i was like, i'm late. [laughter] it's ok. i didn't know what it was trying to do. then it started gaining -- it was a huge snowball effect. everyone started getting in on this.
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then it turned into a march. now i am here. the support not just from our school and community, the entire country, i don't even have words. rep. harman: two things. social media, which did not exist when eleanor was an early activist, has its own momentum. second of all, i think everyone feels, and i will ask ted if he agrees with this, that the poise and the amazing strength of the parkland kids is what led this, not just followed this, but let -- led this, and the march here as i remember reading about it, was funded by some big shots. but smartly, or maybe the kids asked for this, they were not in the forefront. the kids were. the people on the stage were the kids. the power of this was because, first of all, you all experienced it, the core of it.
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second of all, you were brave. you put yourselves out there. not just through using computers and all that and #this and that and what, but in a different form from the way eleanor did it, but as effectively. the faces of this were your faces. rain: i think just as much as people want to tweet something or write something online, it means that much more showing up than -- it shows how much you are willing -- how far you are willing to go to continue your message. rep. harman: you have answered that question and you are willing to go as far as you need to go. ted, i do know what your name is. [laughter] you were -- you are the member of congress. for parkland. where were you and what role have you played in either being part of the activism or receiving the activism?
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how is that institution? we will go next to tim and he will talk about how congress receives information. ... but what role have you played in this and are you playing? not to debate the issue, but in the activism of the kids. rep. deutch: right. first, it is great to be here. there have been many, many opportunities that i have had to share a stage, a platform, a classroom with teachers and students. every time, it is an honor. look, by the way, just to spend a moment talking about our guests, there were a lot of heroes on february 14.
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this is such a horrific tragedy. the activism that has sprung out of it has been inspiring. i will talk about that. we sometimes don't pause to reflect upon, even in the midst of that awful day, the heroism that was on display all over that school. there is no better example than that as sarah. so thank you for that. [applause] really quickly, i was here. i was at a foreign affairs hearing and got a text from my deputy district director whose daughter is a student at stoneman douglas telling me that her daughter was locked, and locked herself in a closet in the band room because there was an active shooter on campus.
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i ran into the anteroom and called the sheriff, who had just come out of the school. and, i will never forget, he said -- i asked him, there was not much that had been reported yet on the news. i asked him about what he had seen. he said, "congressman, it is as bad as you can imagine." i did everything i could to get a flight home. i got home that night. i was at the school the next day. just when you speak of activism, i was at the school about two weeks before the shooting, speaking to the politics club and journalists and i did an interview with high school television reporter david hogg, which i would still like to see, actually. ms. lerner: we have it in the yearbook. [laughter] rep. deutch: ok.
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a bunch of the kids that have become these household names now, came out that day, talked about being involved in the community. i got home and went to parkland to be with the community. i could tell immediately that this was different. first of all, we knew it was different because i knew the kind of school, the community in coral springs and parkland, i know the kids and teacher at the school. -- teachers at the school. they were not just going to let this fall by the wayside as one more horrific school shooting. they were going to do something about it. there was a rally -- there was a vigil the next night. but earlier in that afternoon, 24 hours to the minute, from the shooting, the students gathered at the same park and had a moment of silence. it was very moving. afterwards, several of the students came up to me and
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described what they experienced and what they saw. and just grabbed my arm and said, "congressman, we can't just let this happen again. we have to do something." they have been doing something about it literally every day since. i had the privilege of being there at the never again headquarters at someone's dining room table. these are, after all, high school kids. sitting around the table, after they had just gotten off the phone. one of them had spoken with justin bieber. everyone wanted to chime in and be helpful. the reason they have been so incredible and so inspiring, you can see -- you can tell by the way rain presented herself and
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her story tonight, is that there is nothing more happening here than people who experienced something that is just incomprehensible to the rest of us. and decided to do something about it in the most genuine way. the reason they are so successful is because they are so real. there is no putting on a show. it is 100% based on who they are and what they have experienced. rep. harman: and they don't back down. they don't go away. they stay at it. that is another part, that they did not necessarily have to do. but they are doing it. rep. deutch: and they started immediately. there were a number of students who came up here a week after the shooting. we took them around and they met literally hundreds of members of congress, because it did not matter what your politics were, you could not refuse a meeting.
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these are the students who had just -- you cannot say no. i am not going to make this a debate, but i'm just going to describe what happened. there is nothing quite like seeing some of your young constituents sit around the table with a member of the leadership of the house of representatives, who was very kind to them and engaged with them, and then they laid out what they were trying to accomplish, and this member took out a copy of the constitution and started reading the second amendment and explaining the second amendment. only in response did we then see one of the students pull out his own copy -- [laughter] -- of the constitution, and explain why even the decision in the heller case leaves room to what they were trying to do. it was incredible. then we went to -- this is last
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-- i will say about this -- we did a rally out at blair high school. representative raskin on short notice helped pull this thing together. there were about 1000 students. jamie was there, i was there, the principal and maybe a teacher or two. everyone else in the room was a student. a high school student. everyone. rep. harman: that is the magic. rep. deutch: i have never seen anything like these students. you had a group from parkland, you had a group from maryland, and d.c., and virginia, sitting on the stage together. they took turns going back and forth where one would say we will be the generation that ends gun violence. and the next would say, we are going to be the generation that brings change. we are going to be the generation that leaves everyone -- leads everyone to vote. every time they did it, there was this roar from the crowd. it was incredible. it was the next day -- a week later, that the big event, the big town hall meeting took place. look, the reason that i think
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this really took off is because there was this nationally televised town hall meeting, they gave the world the opportunity to see what this community was like, what they -- these students were like. the fact that they were willing to say things that lots of people may think but nobody would ever think of saying on national tv. and it came from such a powerfully genuine place. that then propelled this movement, the march. what they are doing now, going from city to city to register voters, is remarkable. rep. harman: let me let tim get into this conversation and we have to get to questions. you will have time. tim, you were a member of congress for a long time, as we all were, are. you are a republican -- i will vouch for him. a wonderful republican. rep. petri: i am in trouble now. [laughter] rep. harman: this better be
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good, tim. you have seen a lot of this. you are not in congress for this particular chapter. but you have seen a lot. what are your thoughts and maybe you personally were an activist or are? what are your thoughts and maybe you personally were an activist -- or are? what are your thoughts about this? what kinds of messages did you receive -- what were the messages that moved you during your long congressional career? who were the messengers conveying those messages? rep. petri: let me say one or two things quickly. first of all, this is occurring in a context. it is worth mentioning, and that is the constitution that you talked about. we are very fortunate in this country that we do have the right to petition our government and the freedom of association. you are exercising both of those rights. you might even, one of these days, get people who are giving your contributions and engage someone who will petition the government professionally for you. called a lobbyist. which has a bad reputation. fmr. rep. harman: or they may be in congress themselves.
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rep. petri: yes. but we all belong to associations in america. but of course, they don't all have the same views. where we serve, it is called the people's house. there is a reason for that. the focus of each representative is very much on the national issues and so on but also how it will effect of the people in their district and what they think of this and how they will react. one of the difficulties with an issue such as the one we have been discussing is it has very broad general support. that does not translate into -- it is not historically translated into votes. whereas the narrow percentage of people, it does translate into votes. therefore, people are not only listening to the majority, they are listening to the depths of concern as well.
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i could give examples of that, i don't know if i should. maybe i will. one of them -- of our colleagues, peter smith, from vermont, a moderate republican, voted for moderate gun control legislation. he was defeated by bernie sanders, who is a socialist running -- and bernie opposed peter on the gun issue. it turned out that liberals were not willing to vote for a moderate republican, who supported them on the gun issue, but the conservative gun owners were willing to vote for a socialist, who supported them on that issue. rep. deutch: that is a revelation for a lot of people in the crowd. rep. petri: yeah. this is talked about in politics. it makes a big difference. if you could collect the signatures of 5000 or 10,000 people in a congressional district of people who said they
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had been voting democratic, but they would vote for a republican who supported you on that issue, you might pick up a few people across the aisle. but in fact, it has turned out that people, who for a variety of reasons, support gun rights, for them, it is a very deep issue. in many cases. it will influence their vote, whereas people who support gun control have a lot of other issues, and when push comes to shove and it gets down to voting, it is not historically translated into that people have discovered that in the political process. jim moran from virginia and i were in england talking with college students there. that every issue, at every forum, this issue came up. they could not understand american gun laws. we voted differently. i represented a rural district. i did a poll once in my district, and 80% of people were
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in favor for some sort of gun control. but the 20%, for them, it was a huge issue. the 80% were for it, but they were not going to vote on the basis of that issue. this is the kind of thing that makes issues like this difficult and frustrating. and of course, as you know, it is not really only guns, for example. it is mental health, it is a whole variety of issues that are involved in something like this. but it certainly would be helpful if we could -- if you work hard and you can develop a consensus around doing something positive in this area. fmr. rep. harman: i think that is very helpful. i was remembering, as you spoke, my first term in congress was 1992, the so-called year of the woman. imagine that. but that was a time when a number of women in the house -- here comes the questions --
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doubled, not from a big number, to a still small number. but when two senators were elected who happened to be women from california, they were dianne feinstein and barbara boxer. diane is still there. in 1993, she authored the assault weapons ban. , which was a bill to ban civilian ownership of assault weapons. for 10 years. it passed the house. i don't know whether any republicans voted for it. i don't remember that. but the results of that vote, plus one other vote for a budget that president clinton proposed , was that the democrats lost the house. lost the majority. tom foley, who was then the speaker of the house, and came from a rural washington district, and who supported this assault weapons ban, lost his own personal election. it was a big deal. the people on the other side of
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the issue mobilized. and took him out. i don't know whether the district was overwhelmingly democrat or not, but anyway, foley lost, and newt gingrich became the speaker. 10 years later when this bill expired, it was not renewed. the assault weapons ban no longer exists. let me make one other comment, and we will go to these questions. this is really good. i was remembering, for some of us, the 1960's. not just the activism around civil rights, but the fact that president kennedy, who was the motivation for me to enter politics later, i literally went to the democratic convention of in los angeles in 1960. i was a kid. i grew up in l.a., a public school kid, went to the convention, got on the floor, saw him nominated, and was an usher of sorts at his acceptance speech. that is when i fell in love with politics. he was assassinated in 1963. brutal event for the country.
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and then in 1968, martin luther king and robert kennedy were assassinated. there was a lot of tv footage about the kennedy assassination and the fact that the country came out and stood on the train tracks as his body was moved from new york where his funeral was, to washington, where he was buried. growing up through this, your experience was more personal. but this felt pretty personal too. there is a lot of history out there. ok. we will start with, can rain tell us what her pin says on her shirt? [laughter] rain: it said love. it is the coldplay logo. i got this a couple weeks after everything happened. there was a mini march that we had at the pine trails park in parkland to another nearby park.
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that passes our school. we had our signs and everything. we spent the afternoon chanting. that is where i got it. fmr. rep. harman: another question for the elected officials. tim just mentioned this in passing. professional lobbyists obtain a lot of successes in congress. some examples are in here. as a congressperson, how do you experience these professional lobbyists? what is the key to their success? [laughter] fmr. rep. harman: i really think you ought to take this. rep. petri: well, almost everyone has a lobbyist, believe or not, probably in this room in the country, who belongs to a church. a lot of them have people who live there. if you are an environmentalist, a teacher, a worker, certainly most businesses, one way or the other, have lobbyists. it has a bad reputation. but they actually survey very important function in the
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working of our government, because you have a lot of competing interests. we try to do legislating, we have hearings in order to deal with this issue. we invite people to come and testify with different perspectives. a lot of them are lobbyists. they are representing the interest of their group and saying how they will be hurt by something that another group is trying to do. through that process, you can often work out accommodations that enable us to move forward. one of the reasons for gridlock is that people have been less willing to listen and see if there is crossover in some areas where you can get something done, because of some polarization of the country. fmr. rep. harman: i think the part that is not in the question, but it should be added, is that some of these lobbying groups have a lot of money. the way our system now works with recent supreme court decisions, basically through political action committees and
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and in other indirect ways, contribute a lot of money in a political race. these lobbying groups, they come can be on any side of an issue -- tim is right. they are not all lobbying on the gun issues. some are environmental groups. some are union groups. but if they provide a lot of money to a member of congress, it may skew the information that the person is willing to receive on either side of the issue, and feed the partisanship that we have. rep. holmes norton: the parkland lobbyists -- they are trying to get to changes in gun law. the most effective lobbying are the kids. fmr. rep. harman: it sounds ugly, but the point is you're educating congress. rep. petri: the universities have lobbyists. school systems have lobbyists.
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the truth is if you are a representative, you will be very sensitive to businesses in your district. they employ people. it's important. regardless of the money. now, it is true that politics cost money, and there is a problem with both parties with moving forward. fmr. rep. harman: in both parties. rep. petri: how much they raise from people of business before the committees. that is something that desperately needs to be addressed. the whole system, having freedom of association and being able to hire lawyers and other people to effectively address issues really is very important in the working of a complicated economy that we have in the united states. fmr. rep. harman: yes, tim. rep. deutch: i have two things. one, there is the issue of lobbyists, but it is the issue of money that is the overriding factor. there is too much of it. as the lead sponsor on the
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democracy for all amendment to overturn citizens united, which would get money out of politics, i have spent a lot of time looking at all of the ways that money has a really pernicious influence on the way washington works. all of that said, however, getting back to this issue, eleanor is right. there is no better advocate than someone who comes with a personal story. and there is no more powerful personal story than the stories we are hearing out of parkland. fmr. rep. harman: that is a good point. rep. deutch: i understand the way the wisdom has been to historically, on the gun issue, there are the single-issue voters, and they only care about gun rights, and the people who care about gun safety and all of the steps that we can take that are widely supported, but -- except in congress -- that those
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supporters of those bills, they have lots of other things they care about, too. i am telling you, from what i have seen after stoneman douglas, that is changing. there is a generation of young people for whom gun safety is now a defining issue. it will matter for them. if they are not old enough to vote yet, they are making it matter to their families. i am convinced that in the upcoming election, there are seats throughout the country where you are going to have to decide which side you are on in this debate. i would not want to be on the side of the gun companies, when i have got students like rain coming in to represent the other side. by the way, one last thing about parkland. it is a really powerful combination of the students and what some of the families who lost loved ones have done since the shooting has been remarkably powerful. whether it is direct advocacy
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for changing the laws, or foundations that have been started to focus on school safety, on mental health, whatever the issue is, there is an incredible amount of positive change that even with the grief they are dealing with, these families are experiencing. fmr. rep. harman: right. several of these questions are about how -- i asked this in a different way -- about how you were empowered to act. these focus on what role teachers played. in empowering you. in one case, this is a government teacher who asked -- what advice do each of you have for teachers as to how best to empower our students to be motivated and effective activists? let's ask you, sarah. ms. lerner: i think it is important for teachers to realize and be very aware that their students have a voice.
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they have opinions. and they are not just the kids who sit in front of you. they have valuable things to say and valuable thoughts and plans, hopes, dreams, all of those things that we try and foster in our students. when an event likes this happens, you really see what these kids are made of. two kind of piggyback on what ted has said -- i hope it is ok that i called you ted -- [laughter] rep. deutch: absolutely. ms. lerner: what has come out of parkland, i feel like it came as a surprise for the rest of the nation. parkland kids are so outspoken and articulate and they have got it all together. but we knew that the whole time. because these are the same kids who will argue with them because they have an 89, and they want
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that 90. they are very persistent in their arguments. they don't always get it, but you know, the drive is there. delaney tarr was in my classroom every morning before school. emma gonzales was in my class as a junior. i know these kids. to see them have a voice, to see them have this platform, knowing that we as their teachers support them and encourage them and work with them, it is important for all teachers to do that. whether it is a huge issue like this or something small happening at your school. this is what we are trained to do. fmr. rep. harman: good answer. changing the subject a bit, we talked about the fact that social media is a driver of change that was not available to some of us back in the day.
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but it is here. and you have said, rain, that you are very active on social media, both at the time of the horrible classroom at the horrible moment, and that evening and since. this question is about the other side. what about backlash on social media? how does somebody like you deal with that? i assume there are people out there who have counter messaging that is very personal to you. it is probably -- i don't want to put words in your mouth, but how do you deal with that? rain: as we were talking about earlier, social media is a double-edged sword. i have received a lot more support than i have backlash. if i do get backlash, it is usually people who are commenting under that, that it is a troll, supporting me, speaking for me, almost. for those people who say that, i keep reading, and i almost respond, but i'm like, i don't
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have time. i do not have the energy for that. that is not what i'm here to do. i'm not here to argue and speak over someone. i am here to share my platform, share my views and hope that everyone else can agree with me and see that my side or my beliefs are worth noticing. going back to how we were talking about articulate speaking and things like that, i was not surprised because i was in a classroom -- david was in the corner -- i saw him filming and someone had a flashlight. i was like what is he doing? it spurred into what it is now. i am going to going to the teacher thing. i am sorry. i think for teachers, it is be there with your students. just uplift their voices as much as you can. my environmental teacher, she went with me to tallahassee for five days after everything happened to go and speak to our senators and our representatives. having her there and building the stronger bond that i had
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changed my kind of entire relationship with her. going back to backlash, i choose to ignore it. i don't have the energy for that. i don't think many of my student peers do. fmr. rep. harman: that is a very mature reaction. ok. in one minute, we will do that. let me get to -- and i do think that is a very mature reaction on your part. there is lots more to ask. here is one. again, this is to you, rain. do you worry that your teen supporters will lose interest in the cause that we are talking about? perhaps due to the distraction of social media and to other life experiences? rain: at first, i did a lot. again, for me, for us and parkland, it was different because it was personal. but then slowly, i started getting messages from other
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students explaining how much we inspired them and motivated them. we went to a convention in california, and we were passing by, and we were looking at the journalism from other schools. we saw that almost every single magazine or newspaper had a story talking about how they marched or how they protested. what they did, what their response was. i don't think -- if we continue to do what we are doing now, i don't think they will lose interest. they are looking to us. we are continuing and we will not stop. i don't think they will either. rep. deutch: can i quickly speak to the assumption in that question that i think a lot of people have had before this? the suggestion that, don't you think they will get distracted and go back into snapchat? snapchat. [laughter] rep. deutch: the narrative that
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existed before this happened, which is, oh, these high school kids, they are busy staring at their screens all day long. they are on snapchat and instagram. they are playing fortnite. they are not really -- they are not paying attention to anything ongoing or anything going on around them. then this happened. what we have realized is the whole time they were on their phones, they were building and participating in this community that gives them reach in their own local area and around the country and the world that we never could have imagined. which is why i am confident they will not get sucked back into all the distractions. fmr. rep. harman: i want to call on martin frost in one minute. there is one other question in a different area. i am sorry if i'm not fair to all of you. there are a lot of questions.
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maybe this is for you, eleanor, whether there is a spillover event -- not that this issue is resolved -- if it will shed light on the black lives matter issue, which is not the same issue as a school shooting, but it is an issue in the same genre. is there a spillover, do you think, and do you think it is being helpful that these kids are out there in force? rep. holmes norton: the underlying issues are much the same. it is a different group of people, but it is really -- look who black lives matter are. it is not my generation. it is not quite parkland's generation. but it is young people. who again are showing that there is a general understanding in this society that nothing happens without activism. that is the most important element of a democracy that you
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think that what you are doing can somehow affect a very large issue. for african americans who were bona fide second-class citizens in this country, to take that step, took an enormous sense that this country could change. if that to could happen in that generation that produced the three great civil rights statutes, it does seem to me it is an object lesson for every single generation of young people. what do we see now? it has gotten down to the youngest among us who are -- who have taken the most serious issue into their own hands, issues that generations before them have systematically failed, and gotten the attention of the country in a renewed interest, in a renewed effort, to move
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perhaps the most difficult issue in our country today. our hats have to be off to them. fmr. rep. harman: yes, it does. i just want to make this point about activism. then martin, please come and talk about this issue in the same bandwidth. maybe you can close this program. while this is the most recent and possibly the most effective story about activism, activism has been going on in our country since its founding. activists founded our country. and wrote the founding documents, many of which are in this building, and we would not have a country without activism. we would not have the change, the social change, not enough, but we would not have the social
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change we have. women would not have the right to vote. women certainly would not be in congress. that is for darn sure, without activism. what i like about this panel is there is a historical precedent. it did not just start on valentine's day. not to minimize what you have done since valentine's day. i really applaud everyone who is on this panel and who is active and everyone in this audience. raise your hand if you are an activist. [laughter] fmr. rep. harman: raise your hand if you're not an activist. [laughter] fmr. rep. harman: ok. i have made my point. martin, why don't you, incoming president martin frost, close this down but also make your point? fmr. rep. frost: first of all, this was an extraordinary panel. i want to thank everyone for participating. i want to take a minute to share with you a personal example during my career as a congressman where citizen activism made a great deal of difference. some years ago, there was a
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nine-year-old girl who was kidnapped, molested, and murdered in my district. as congressman often do, i went to express my sympathies. this was a blue-collar neighborhood. relatively poor people. i said, what can i do to help? they said, congressman, you can go back to washington and make sure that this does not happen to other children. they urged me to have a law passed increasing penalties against child molesters. which i did, child predators. then, i worked with a group of citizens and with local media and law enforcement to create what now is the amber alert. the little girl's name was amber ackerman. i was the author of the national amber alert legislation, which was because a group of citizens, average citizens -- these were not people with any money at all -- came to their congressman and said, "congressman, could you make a difference?" and working with other members
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of congress, i was able to do that. there are a lot of examples. everyone has some degree -- some examples where the average citizen, not the money people, made an impact on their career and on the people they represent. i want to thank all of you for participating today. it was a great discussion. thank you. [applause] fmr. rep. harman: thank you all for coming. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2018] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> as part of our year-long 50 capitals toward, the c-span bus relatively made the long journey to juneau, capital of the 49th state. this weekend on book tv in american history tv, we will feature stops across alaska, showing the state's natural beauty, and we will delve into the history and literary
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culture. war,"ay, on the "civil william marvel explains the economic factors that drove many volunteer toers to fight. he is the author of "dinkins "lincoln's. -- of mercenaries." here is a preview. william: it became clear to me that there was a connection between money. had carried the burden of the war, at least in my hometown, and when he has something to do with their enlistment, because the poorer they were, the more the lower compensation appeal to them. read that jim mcpherson had written about civil war soldier motivation about this time, and he
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concluded that union soldiers enlisted primarily for patriotic motives and partially for ultra stick motives -- altruistic motives. motives that he deduced from reading a lot of manuscripts. and i wrote to him, and i sent him the results of my local study, and those of you who know jim mcpherson must know that he is probably the most kindhearted person working in this field, and although i was just a woodchuck from the north country, he engaged in a little exchange, postal exchange, with me on the subject, and he lifested that people make choices for a variety of reasons, that maybe patriotism people the sole reason
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enlisted, maybe altruism was not, maybe patriotism was not. he i am going up in a few weeks and maybe it will get paid for it, but i am not improved for the money. for me,difference was if i'm getting paid, i am not going anywhere. but there are many differences between me and jim. i mentioned how kindhearted he is. for many years, i suppose that perhaps he was right, that may money was not the overriding issue, maybe it was not that much of an issue. >> watch the entire program today at 6:00 p.m. eastern on a weekly series "the civil war" on c-span3.

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