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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Mikheil Saakashvili  Deutsche Welle  January 24, 2018 6:30pm-7:00pm CET

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circle of fear. is in chechnya. islamic state has recruited more young people here than anywhere else. and more and more attention fighters are now returning home their most respected and feared. how will this affect chechen society. circles here today w. . my guest this week here in kiev is stateless he's a former president of georgia a former regional governor in ukraine and hanging over him multiple allegations of criminal activity and a three year prison sentence for abuse of power he's. really once the darling of the west for spearheading the rose revolution in georgia in two thousand and three
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but has he now made too many enemies and run out of road. because saakashvili welcome to conference thank you for inviting me it's been a bizarre few weeks for you one moment you're promising to unite to the opposition against the president then you're threatening to throw yourself off the roof of a block of flats well that's not that's not exactly true i didn't for myself i told him to no i told him if they come and try to put handcuffs on me we would all fall and that was actually true but they never tried that place but i went to do it because my cell phone was jammed and i needed to call people saw i had to go through the roof we've had very problematic written till the end while first message got through at the edge of the roof so that's how telecommunications worked but this is this is a street. a lot of people are wondering whether you've lost the plot. well look
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it's not about me i think people have you made it about you then she made it about you. chris let's a little treasure let's go let's let's let's play the government is doing all kind of bizarre things that in many ways is making it about me because since one of your day i've been involved in all kind of all kind of manipulation to squeeze me out of ukraine you know. police. leaders you cross an international border with an invalid passport you're asking for a country look it all started. just my party on somebody else's name and they deprived me of nationality legally then they didn't let me back illegally because i had the document to enter at least i had the right to be considered as an applicant to come back. well they didn't want to they obviously want to come back for sure i wanted to do with that but as you know another day another stunt is in the you know i wanted to come back because i believe in the future of this country and i believe that i have place in the future of this country as simple as that and these guys
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don't want me here period one moment you're screaming at the people to go take to the streets. and the thieves as you put it yes and then you write him a letter saying oh it's nothing personal yet so you can have a chat it's nothing personal i actually will during the ramp mixed message you know that i made it very clear that i'm willing it's nothing personal about me it's not about persia per se it's about the old guard in the thief. absolutely the whole the whole clique feet but it doesn't mean that all that apart from that it's not the only thing i made clear we would talk about about the terms of transition because this country needs the countries in the trouble trouble ukraine might this integrate just fall apart if this whole thing continues and i'm very worried about parading through the streets wearing a flag and carrying. what is it. only one of these things and you know that wasn't of my choice that and they knew they put it on me and you seem to revel in. selfies i'm the one who gets most of the selfies you told
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a reporter well that's part of so job some of you like being in the public eye you're enjoying this in the house leadership but we don't public support i can edit you much the only thing that can keep me moving here do the only thing we can achieve something here in this situation our legal system is failing the solutions don't work ukraine basically it's so far stayed with absolute to fill the situations the only way how can get it for all your messages for people for but you seem to publish that no i we need support for a result ukraine needs to be rescued ukraine is the biggest country in europe and it's right now failing maybe it doesn't want to be rescued by you i mean a couple of years ago when you got to your poll ratings with good you claimed last august to be always among the three or four most popular politicians but even here that's not saying much these days is a poll last september by the international republican institute showed that seventy percent of ukrainians have either a somewhat and favorable or very unfavorable view of you let me say ukraine is
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right now he told the politicians but this is the poll from december and from the polling december percent of ukraine's would support my candidate for prime ministership and actually they supported more than half of that support more or less forty six this is this is one poll but there are plenty of other programs that show you only two percent giving you a very favorable rating no only two percent that's the exact opposite of. this is international that's not whatever but you're thinking see so like there was a bill ayers last poll from the. november something like that which is the latest poll that you mentioned gave me the same exactly the same ratings at present personal present person was all around media and i was pretty unpopular pretty unpopular so that's not the biggest concern is going to say you set the bar pretty low that's pretty low but unfortunately most of ukrainian politics are there but we've been since we start this moment since we actually really took up this battle . we've been moving to have
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a bipartisan making into parliament this blockage as i said thirty four percent in this poll are supporting my canvas for prime minister and basically people main thing is people are supporting our agenda that's more important the person you say than you insisted to a magazine called as you said ukrainians would never forgive you if you just gave up the fight against corruption will never forgive you as if you were the last best savior of this country while some people people believe like that so i don't i don't think the two percent who gave you a very favorable rating are so you have thousands never seen. anybody had mobilized such large crowds in the streets of kiev as we did this december and this is. all all about me but i help to do it with brew group of people lots of good young people lots of new places but its value because you told of magazine said if i gave up that would mean i'm just like everybody else and all my life i've tried not to be just like you so it was all about you know absolutely it's not going to like
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this look this kind of politicians talk about their vision you talk about you in this what you. know i talk i just made a film which is all about ukraine's future you create how you can crank and make talk about new political system new colony new energy system new. industry of ukraine it's all about ukraine my legacy in georgia it's all about results i would like to come on to the. let's talk about your time as governor of a twenty fifteen hour for just a job governor region and you went with a reformist zeal absolute like that you said people expected with a real revolution comes real change but we had the revolution that basically didn't produce real change now is the time to resolve and then eighteen months later you say you've been sabotaged nearly cost that's their pack of life you don't and you didn't expect that this is known as well one of the most of the tourist areas of corruption in ukraine a very corrupt. in ukraine and you just gave it eighteen months and then gave out
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exactly because when i went there we all believed. that i brought with me we will believe that poroshenko would have interest in supporting us that it would have stayed and support you so they would be very easy for that they had you know it's all started nicely and well it all started beautiful people brought this government fifty four percent we had my dad and we'd all the criticisms we had of them and with all the scraps that we had of them we still thought they'll make this time it will be different why because it was after my dad because that's the european choice because it's you know how entrenched corruption in this country and i want to start somewhere and he gave me an eighteen that's all you were prepared to give it. the u.k. ukrainian civil rights advocates said last year he knew he quit early just blaming everything and everyone else for not achieving anything hearing that people that's not exactly right with the benefit we built a road that had not been built for forty years we had it built we brought a lot of new people for the customs of the first time in history of that city for
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that customs police and prosecutors were not corrupt that's quite an achievement we're now i would have prepared to prepare to build this new singapore there or indeed a new but it didn't exactly work that needs another level of support but we showed the people different and i think that's some kind of legacy even if i'm not i'm totally unhappy with it and i'm not satisfied with my performance but we could achieve as much as we could let me put it this way the trouble was the job wasn't high profile wasn't big enough didn't have enough power and you're still hungry for power rather look at the job offer there's a governor was very high profile in ukraine because it was the front line of fighting for for basically for against corruption and for unity of ukraine but you talk to western journalists in december last december that you had your eyes on a role in the future government ideally as problem and well social you're hungry no power let me let me put this in a way to put it very plain when persian gulf or twice to become prime minister i decline i declined because i thought it. window dressing i declined because he
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wanted me to use my popularity at that moment to kind of do this p.r. stunt for him but i thought that it would not when i asked him would i be allowed to have my ministers would i be allowed to have a lot of call for new elections together with him if we wanted a real change he said absolutely not then i said i cannot take the job but of course we have new elections you have changeability you have new people and if people want me to service prime minister and vote for percent at the book according to the sports i showed they supported you know why not i. think you are going to make progress in this country by making serious allegations constantly against powerful people you think after you've called everyone else a crook and everybody says you're a crook and you call them liars you think you're going to be the last man standing here it becomes a joke is that he said poroshenko is a thief who is making a corrupt and is plundering the whole of europe we will go to parliament and call for his impeachment serious charges but you laid not one shred of evidence while
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there is hardly more than there is well there's plenty of evidence you you say this to you but you don't do the hard look we don't do the analysis you don't know we didn't say sions you know you haven't we did you haven't put it out there we in the public demand everybody says this about we just had a bunch of big scandals very well documented about president abusing his power about president of office taking part in money laundering reinforcing the oligarchs having direct conflict of where is the proof that you could take to court to prove to which court the court that they will record full course that fully controlled by the way we are courts look we have lots of lawsuits against them in every court but as a rule we are losing the legal system in this country does work august control political power media prosecutors courts police just about every time you make a major allegation like justin you don't provide the evidence you devalue the currency i think we are getting more and more support of the. people people are
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getting awareness i think we saw in romania what had happened when the situations had failed people i think ukraine asserted were no worse than romanians i think their kids will as well as they will to eventually for a peaceful protests force institutions to work to perform their duty and to get rid of the corrupt all the dark you're using these allegations the way a lot of politicians use slogans you somehow don't feel the need to prove them but you just call them a new prince all the more good. fortune almost entirely but that's almost that's almost a cliche let's face it you think that gets rid of the need to actually provide good solid evidence. in this but the worst voted out their biggest biggest business ukraine as ukraine is not growing economies in ukraine has ukraine has become the poorest per capita g.d.p. per capita country in europe and on the strength of that you tell them they're all crooks and there's a reason this is a result of this corrupt at least i wouldn't stand up and millions coroners you have president owning becoming part and we haven't sold you
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a chocolate business go even though he promised to do this well you have no illusions or you should have had no illusions about what you were getting into you gave in eighteen months and you called a movie ross you throw up your hands and then you walk out and not think is that when we started we both believe that he had the unique chance to become somebody else yes he had all this corrupt background sort of connections but on the other hand people came to mend it and we believe in this and he started quite well he brought some quite some young people he allowed us to have some autonomy he allowed us to create an enchanter corruption bureau he allowed to have transparent purchases their second kid allowed us to create a national to corruption bureau and also to create a new police force. so there are a good number of steps taken in the right direction not that everything was so bad but at certain moment this all came into conflict with his personal interest and personal with gus and then he had a choice and unfortunately made absolutely wrong choice to decide well if i had been in his place i would never. i walked it for forbes list of billionaires become
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a historic figure you would rather be in force a list of billionaires than be a. difference of vision you claimed in december that a presidential emissary visited you said all your problems would go away current accusations and see even the illegal funds although if you would simply criticize the opposition politician julia to michelle and stop criticizing him i was told my troubles would be over if i agreed to these things too i would get my passport back in five minutes but when you were asked for the name of the emissary you wouldn't give it the one detail that would have substantiated your story you couldn't provide well that's because that's basically the person that i didn't want to because one thing was that because it wasn't to blame for it you were there i mean it does it gives you credibility and if you don't give the name you have no credibility with the story every action after that that it was right after that everything that their management would happen how does anyone know that you didn't just make up because a reporter there told me we will go after you will create so-called compromise
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don't you we'll put it on television we will we will but you're still here we will still yes we will you write under arrest we will arrest you and we'll throw you out of the country you're always saying the court the biggest fear the courts actually refused just put you and i thought this was so we didn't want that. exceptional judge who said that all the evidence against me is fake that it's all empty that they should be let free and justice in ukraine there's one person and she was immediately dismissed right now if you spend your free to you're free to walk around. as you are but you're free to be here i have to put you on a plane to join up because they could because i still have off if they did it with my some of my people but them something else they point to several groups of georgian back on their head and with special flights we separate it's a special flight this and people away and i'm somebody else when i was in prison in k.g.b. prison here fifty thousand people took to the streets and went. my prison was that
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was quite a message to the government that's why i think it also influenced the judge it really showed that i'm not alone and people are standing but that's what matters let's let's talk about georgia john you're the first and i'm sent here convicted you of abuse of power gave you a three year jail term. they say that in two thousand and eight you misused your presidential power to pardon four police officers convicted of the murder of a banker sandra give clearly and the pardons were part of a deal to cover up evidence surrounding the killing yes well look you say that's a lie no nobody has ever tried in modern history presents for a party you remember bill clinton. you know pardoning it's not just about partly it's about whether you covered up evidence surrounding the kill nobody has ever constitutional short makes it absolutely a limited right for president to part of the first second. term and they were pardoned together with hundred forty three other military officers potential holes
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yes yes huge support in two thousand and eleven the european court of human rights just slammed the entire investigation and implicated you in the cover up didn't you know it said it was struck by how the different branches of state park at the ministry of interior the public prosecutor's office the prisons department the domestic courts and the president of georgia all acted in concert in preventing justice from being down that's a huge allegation against you at the same time the european court of human rights just last december it sat on the case against my former prime minister who is in prison that he is the only he is basically hostage to the fact that they were looking for some kind of evidence against me and because they refused to provide it it was a purely political case the government of georgia have hired hand best world investigators like retired well president years ago if you want these government of georgia that's controlled by because private shareholder but this is two thousand and you have a little bit older but what you always think you want to. doesn't the exactly but
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let me tell you what's happening now i know but let's not get away from what happened there in europe there was a huge outcry in georgia and about the european court. but on the other hand president has limited right to pardon and this case is purely political and alter the suggestion was to let mr saakashvili the only was murdered on the orders of one of your senior colleagues and the four policemen were persuaded to take the hit in return for bill money and the only bird who got it put them on this massive water he said they were convicted and this are big part of they were convicted in a trial where the judge didn't even ask about their motives but you know the same the trial was fourteen you know where you know the big no that's tame judge this very same judge has been used in cases against my government members already by this government so judges are forced learn the mother of the victim was threatened and told to stay silent offered money if she stayed silent and told she would be silenced she opened her love this case was dirty through and through wasn't it
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mischievous look country i took it george it was a real country with the way back you wouldn't expect to turn pale country with no budget with no functioning institutions that turn we too early to very. brilliant success in their forms but it couldn't have been turned into absolute perfectly so that was an excuse for a very very very familiar the liberal democracy that's an excuse for venting their standard of living ganguly style judicial system our judicial system had been failing this is true i would admit it why we accusation is that you prevent this from nothing but it's just not true our duty easy to our judicial system was we that this is system is it worse now but your human rights record wasn't that good because of the time you know once it was it you would let it go back down on the press look you for instance of the immediate t.v. station and your security forces. raided in two thousand and seven physically
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abusing jonas destroying their equipment so it went back earlier so that's let me point out there but if you put your own car. parked in the station little five year is still there. there are plenty of others they may result of my work in the region where nobody quits on their own when i had full power and much more to have here i quit on my own through elections i came as you should have done absolutely i was you should have absolutely no you claim are you claiming credit simply for doing what yemen or president in a normal country should not have no region you look around in the region nobody does that tito japery see your form of foreign minister said it was clear by the end of your first term you were using your thirty to create an unshakable power fiefdom your style of ruling ultimately authoritarian it was was not your party that was working for because private shareholder of course from you going to chicago that doesn't mean it was wrong there are plenty of other people you said
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called any of other people who said the same thing clued in the human rights organization we including them look at we move toward or from one of them to what would be worst place of doing business in one of the best. position to night position we will endure spied on your comprehensively you have a so-called dirty archive full of sex tapes featuring politicians activists and well known george stockpile to use and no longer has ever struck by the three people of russian propaganda nobody has ever produced it they all joined also to take over twenty dollars through mcgovern regional authority one hundred forty five of them nobody has ever produced in front of the press. nobody has ever produced evidence of it it was all made up it was made up first by russian propaganda and repeated by british private shareholder i presume specifically for he bit to put any together and hearing this from private life this is very important for me personally because that's. exactly what they've been using against me and the
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previous government that's what they're trying to use against me and i just hate those enjoy your little georgia system was far from ideal but georgia had the best reforms in terms of corruption in this region georgia had the best for prom institution short of that of course judicial system which wasn't there georgia had georgia's government when they're talking about people they care that they had best investigate in the world so we're looking for my old shorts for my account for my something they couldn't find any one of your dollar leaders of the so-called yes revelation role rose revolution nino. set in two thousand and twelve ga had become like the bolshevik system you know for sure science is a vision you're an enemy of the people she is the biggest admirer of putin she or she is the biggest friend that's all and that's a smear is no but not just because she said no more question no answer about no or with russia in two thousand and eight you get back people who say the time for questions will come on traitors and russian spies know that this is not an issue
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this is no my interest me it is not my terminology they were called people like that traitorous but traitors is not my term but in her case she accept she after a war in georgia after russian invasion into jordan she went to putin and. basically was to the front of russian military parade troops that killed her compatriots she was a woman she doesn't deny that she talked to peter she stood person as a russian she was somebody the russians somebody without any proof or short whatever you need to put it cause her role model says what putin wants to do you know what else is what else is what children have a role model you know or should it never consider that it's an insult to compare it to put in pursuit was going to only one criticizing. the right person she wasn't the only one the e.u. criticized your handling of the war well they said that they did evidence damning indictment of you accusing your administration of effectively starting the war no that's not what they said they said. then he says your partial they said acting in
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the notes of them oh no that's what they said i want to know in two thousand and no that's what not what they said they said that russian troops were the first to enter georgian territory but the big action was started by our response and you know i would see any other present in the world not responding to foreign army entering the territory and they said we've stayed ational decided that both sides bore responsibility for the conflict that they did look that they did say look which flatly contradicts your version you know the thing is that small country georgia was invaded by a hundred times bigger country with russia at every time they wanted to get a war and then they said there is a very sad trend to blame of the weak team because then international company had to do something about it but despite the fact that to ukraine that happened after that we have so many of much evidence gathered up that it's all painfully obvious what the international community did to help you and now you're looking here you are in ukraine yes looking for help from the international community of course i always tell you and i say a little fight to the end fight for what stay out of jail no no i didn't put all
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these thoughts on could take claim tonight and fluted stay out of the jail i can go to and you can so why don't you want to because you are enjoying having the time know because because you're different from everybody come back to what you said i don't want to be the source of all i'm going oligarchs are winning in georgia in moldova in ukraine all around the place and we cannot give them such an easy right we cannot give in to make such an easy with these guys are people they are corrupt they are killing the prospects and future for this country ultimately they will blow up this country because the country will disintegrate because it actually says sarwari netherlands and look at it quietly i just cannot do it because i'm just really good to have you on the program for as well as much indeed thank you you thank .
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this is from berlin two leaders message from germany make the case for globalization france's president emmanuel. crowds at the world's economic oh for of the free trade has to work for everyone it's reassured prosperity and protects democracy i'm going to hold warned against protectionism and call for every new europe.


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