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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Mikheil Saakashvili  Deutsche Welle  January 24, 2018 10:30pm-11:01pm CET

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people. information. to touch. my guests this week here in kiev is stateless he's a former president of georgia a former regional governor in ukraine and hanging over him multiple allegations of criminal activity and a three year prison sentence for abuse of power he's. really the darling of the west for spearheading the rose revolution in georgia in two thousand and three but
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how does he now made too many enemies and run out of road. we really welcome to come thank you for inviting me it's been a bizarre few weeks for you. to unite to the opposition against the president when you're threatening to throw yourself off the roof of a block of flats well that's not that's not exactly true i didn't. i told him no i told him if they come and try to put handcuffs on me we would all fall and that they never tried that place but i went through the roof because my cell phone was jammed and i needed to call people saw i had to go to the roof very pragmatic. person message got through at the edge of the roof so that's how telecommunications worked but this is this is a street. a lot of people are wondering whether you've lost the plot. well look
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it's not about me i think people have made it about you then she donated about you yeah well chris let's a little traditional let's let's let's let's lay the government is doing all kind of bizarre things that in many ways is making it about me because it seems to have been walled in all kind of all kind of manipulation to squeeze me out of ukraine you know. police. leaders you cross an international border with an invalid passport you're asking for a country look it all started. just my partner somebody else's name then they deprived me of nationality legally then they didn't let me back illegally because i had a document to interview at least i had the right to be considered as an applicant which i didn't come back. well they didn't want to they obviously want to come back for sure i wanted to do with that but as you know another day another stunt is in the you know i wanted to come back because i believe in the future of this country and i believe that i have a place in the future of this country as simple as that and these guys don't want
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me here period from one moment screaming at the people to go take to the streets throughout. the thieves as you put it yes and then you write him a letter saying oh it's nothing personal it's personal let's have a chat it's nothing a personal i actually will during the ramp mixed message you know i actually made it very clear that i'm willing it's nothing personal about me it's not about persia per se it's about the only go to my feet. absolutely behold the whole clique feet but it doesn't mean that all that apart from that it's not the only thing i made clear we would talk about about the terms of transition because this country needs the countries in the trouble trouble ukraine might as integrate just fall apart if this whole thing continues and i'm very worried about parading through the streets wearing a flag and carrying. what is it how come only one of you think and you know that wasn't of my choice that and when you say put it on me and you seem to revel in. selfies i'm the one who gets most of the selfies you told
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a reporter well that's part of the job some of you like being in the public eye you're enjoying this in the house leadership but we doubt public support i can know that you much the only thing that can keep me moving here do the only thing we can achieve something here in this situation or legal system is failing the situations don't work ukraine basically it's so far stayed with absolute the failed the situations the only way how can get it for all your messages for people to see a passport for public safety no i we need support for a result ukraine needs to be rescued ukraine is the biggest country in europe and it's right now failing maybe it doesn't want to be rescued by you i mean a couple of years ago when you go to your poll ratings with good you claimed last august to be always among the three or four most popular politicians but even here that's not saying much these days is a poll last september by the international republican institute showed that seventy percent of ukrainians have a somewhat unfavorable or very unfavorable view of you let me say ukraine is right
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now he told the politicians but this is the poll from december and from the polling december percent of ukraine's would support my canvas for prime ministership and actually they supported more than half of that support more or less forty six this is one poll but there are plenty of other programs social you only two percent giving you a very favorable no on a superset the exact opposite of. this is international that's not whatever but you're thinking see so like there was a bill ayers last poll. from november november or something like that which is the latest poll that you mention gave me the same exactly the same ratings at present personal present person was all their own media and i was pretty unpopular pretty unpopular so that's not the biggest human concern is going to say you set the bar pretty low that's pretty low but unfortunately most of ukrainian politics are there but we've been since we start this moment since we actually really took up this bad . we've been moment by parties in making it to parliament despite the magic
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blockage as i said thirty four percent in this poll are supporting my canvas for prime minister and basically people main thing is people are supporting our agenda that's more important the course will you say than you insisted to a magazine called as you said ukrainians would never forgive you if you just gave up the fight against corruption will never forgive you that is if you are the last best savior of this country while some people people believe like that so i don't i don't think the two percent who gave you a very favorable rating so you have thousands never seen my dad ever anybody had mobilize such large crowds in the streets of kiev as we did this december and this is. all all about me but i helped to do it with brew group of people lots of good people lots of new places but its value because you told of my dizziness to go see if i gave up that would mean i'm just like everybody else and all my life i've tried not to be just like soldiers all about you know absolutely it's not going to
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like this look this kind of politicians talk about their vision you talk about you in this you. know i talk i just made a film which is all about ukraine's future you create how you can crank and make talk about new political system new colony new energy system new. tourist industry if you crank it's all about you crack my legacy in short it's all about results i would like to come on to the. let's talk about your time as governor yes in twenty fifteen must go off your job governor region and you went with a reformist zeal absolutely like that you said people expected with a real revolution comes real change but we have the revolution of basically didn't produce real change now is the time to resolve this and then eighteen months later you say you've been sabotaged nearly cost that's their part of life you don't and you didn't expect that this is known as well one of the most of the tourist areas of corruption exact in ukraine a very corrupt. in ukraine and you just gave it eighteen months and then gave up
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exactly because when i went there we all believed. that i brought with me we will believe that poroshenko would have interest in supporting us that it would have stayed and support you so they would be that easy no no i thought that they had you know it's all started nicely and well it all started beautiful people brought this government oppression fifty four percent we had my dad and we'd all the criticisms we had of them and with all the scalps that we had of them we still thought they'll make this time it will be different why because it was after my dad because that's the european choice because it's you know how entrenched corruption. you start somewhere only get one thousand that's all you were prepared you know given. the u.k. ukrainian civil rights advocates said last year he knew he quit early just blaming everything and everyone else for not achieving anything you hearing that people that's not exactly right with the benefits we built the road that had been built for forty years we had built we brought a lot of new people for the customs of the first time in history of the city of
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odessa customs police and prosecutors were not corrupt that's quite an achievement we're now i would have prepared to prepare to build this new singapore they're already the new but it didn't exactly work that needs another level of support but we showed the people different and i think that's some kind of legacy even if i'm not i'm totally unhappy with it and i'm not satisfied with my performance but we could achieve as much as we could let me put it this way the trouble was the job wasn't high profile enough wasn't big enough didn't have enough power and you're still hungry for power rather look at the job offer there's a governor was very high profile in ukraine because it was the front line of fighting for the for basically for against corruption and for unity of ukraine told a western journalist in december last december that you had your eyes on a role in the future government ideally as problem and. social you're hungry of power let me let me put it put very plain went off or twice to become prime minister i declined i declined because i thought it. bindo dressing i declined
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because he wanted me to use my popularity at that moment to kind of do this p.r. stunt for him but i thought that it would not when i asked him would i be allowed to have my ministers would i be allowed to have one day allowed to have call for new elections together with him if we wanted a real change he said absolutely not then i said i cannot take the job but of course if we have new elections you have changeability you have new people and if people want me to serve as prime minister and for percent at the put according to this poll so short they supported you know why not i. think you are going to make progress in this country by making serious allegations constantly against powerful people you think after you've called everyone else a crook and everybody says you're a crook and you call them liars you think you're going to be the last man standing here it becomes a joke is that you said poroshenko is a thief who is mega corrupt and he's plundering the whole of europe we will go to parliament and call for his impeachment serious charges but you laid not one shred
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of evidence while there is more like more than there is well there's plenty of evidence would you you say this year but you don't do the hard look we don't do the analysis you don't know we didn't say sions you know you haven't we did you haven't pointed out that we in the public domain everybody says this about we just had a bunch of big scandals very well documented about president abusing his power about a president taking part in money laundering reinforcing the oligarchs having direct conflict is the proof that you could take to court to prove to which court the court that they will record full course that fully controlled by the way we have courts look we have lots of lawsuits against them in every court but as a rule we are losing the legal system in this country does work orders control political power media prosecutors courts police system and every time you make a major allegation like justin you don't provide the evidence you devalue no i think i think we are getting more and more support of the. people people are
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getting awareness i think we saw in romania what had happened when the situations that failed people i think ukrainian started were no worse than romanians i think they will as well as they will eventually for a peaceful protests force institutions to work to perform their duty and to get rid of the corrupt oligarchs you know using these allegations the way a lot of politicians use slogans you somehow don't feel the need to prove them but you just don't call them crooks you prince case call them or. fortune almost entirely so mr bennett plays that's almost a cliche but let's face it you think that gets rid of the need to actually provide good solid evidence. in this but the worst voted out their biggest biggest business ukraine as ukraine is not growing economies in ukraine has ukraine has become the poorest per capita g.d.p. per capita country in europe and on the strength of that you tell them they're all crooks and there's a reason this is a result of these corrupt at least i wouldn't stand up and then of course the enormous you have president owning becoming part and to because all the guys on the
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monopoly then he raises prices and that's because it's not in there and you knew this before you did on the job so look no new this you know but you know he was an oligarchy you knew he hadn't sold you a chocolate business good even though he promised to do this well you had no illusions or you should have had no illusions about what you were getting into you gave in eighteen months and you call the movie wrong you throw up your hands and then you walk out and nothing that when we started we both believe that he had the unique chance to become somebody else yes he had all these corrupt backgrounds of connections but on the other hand people came to mend it and we believe in this that he started quite well he brought some quite some young people he allowed us to have some autonomy he allowed us to create an enchanter corruption bureau he loved to have transparent purchases there are certain he allowed us to create a national to corruption bureau and also to create a new police force. so there are a good number of steps taken in the right direction not that everything was so bad but at certain moment. this all came into conflict with his personal interest and
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personal all of course and then he had a choice and unfortunately made absolutely wrong choice to decide well if i had been in his place i would never have opted for forbes list of billionaires i would have become historic figure he would rather be in porcelain billionaires than be a philosophical difference of view you claimed in december that a presidential emissary visited you said all your problems would go away current accusations and saving illegal funds although if you would simply criticize the opposition politician julia to michelle and stop criticizing him i was told my troubles would be over if i agreed to these things i would get my passport back in five minutes but when you were asked for the name of the emissary you wouldn't give it the one detail that would have substantiated your story you couldn't provide well but that's because that's basically the person that i wanted because my money was that because he wasn't to blame for it if you want i mean it does it gives you credibility and if you don't give the name of credibility with the story every
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action to prove that he was right after that everything good then management would happen how does anyone know that you didn't just make up a report they told me we will go after you will create so-called compromise don't you we'll put it on television we will we will but you're still here we will still yes we will be right under arrest we will arrest you and we'll throw you out of the country you're always saying the coalition likes to hear the courts actually refused to put you on i think this was so we did that. exceptional judge who said that all the evidence against me is fake that it's all empty that they should be let free and justice in ukraine there's one person and she was immediately dismissed right now she's fair and you're free to talk you're free to walk around here she says you are but you're free to be here i have to put you on a plane to georgia because they could because i still have off they couldn't they did it with my some of my people but them something else they point to several groups of georgian back on their head and with. flight. separately it's
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a special flight they sent people away and i'm somebody else when i was in prison in k.g.b. prison here fifty pounds and people took to the streets and went to my prison that was quite a message to the government that's why i think it's also interesting judge it really showed that i'm not alone and people are standing but that's what matters let's let let's talk about georgia john you're the first and i'm sent here convicted you of abuse of power gave you a three year jail term. they say that in two thousand and eight you misused your presidential pardon for police officers convicted of the murder of a banker sandra give clearly and the pardons were part of a deal to cover up evidence surrounding the killing yes well you say that's a lie no nobody has ever used their presence for pardon you remember bill clinton. you know pardoning it's not just about partly it's about whether you covered up evidence surrounding him to kill nobody has ever. shorter makes it absolutely
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limited right for president to pardon that first second. term and they were pardoned together with hundred thirty three military officers potential holes yes yes huge holes in a case heard in two thousand and eleven the european court of human rights just slammed the entire investigation and implicated you in the cover up didn't they not if you look at it said it was struck by how the different branches of state power the ministry of interior the public prosecutor's office the prisons department the domestic courts and the president of georgia all acted in concert in preventing justice from being down that's a huge allegation against you at the same time european court of human rights just last december it sat on the case against my former prime minister who is in prison that he is the only he is basically hostage to the fact that they were looking for some kind of evidence against me and because they refused to provide it it was a purely political case the government of georgia have hired hand best world investing. it is like
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a retard when the president of israel is. this government of georgia that's controlled by because private shareholder but this is two thousand you have a little bit older but what you always take you will still because of the exactly but let me tell you what's happening now i know but let's not get away from what happened there in europe there was a huge outcry in georgia in about the european court. but on the other hand president unlimited right to pardon this case is purely political and the suggestion was to let mr saakashvili the only was murdered on the orders of one of your senior colleagues and the four policemen were persuaded to take the hit in return for bill money and only so-called byrd who got it to him on this massive order he said they were convicted and served big part of it were convicted in a trial where the judge didn't even ask about their motives but you know the same a trial was faulty you know where you know that a big no that's james this very same judge has been used in cases against my
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government members already by this government so just learn the mother of the victim was threatened and told to stay silent offered money if she stayed silent and told she would be silenced she opened her love this case was dirty through and through wasn't it mischievous look country i took at the georgia water filled country with way back you wouldn't expect to turn pale country with no budget we'd not function constitutions turned. into very performing really and case of success and reforms but it couldn't have been turned into absolute perfectly so that was an excuse very very very familiar as a liberal democracy that's an excuse for venting justice relating the. judicial system our judicial system had been failing this is true i would admitted the accusation is that you prevent this from being but that's just not true our duty easy to our judicial system was we and our judicial system is it worse now but your human rights. record wasn't that good because of the time of the year once it was
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what you would need to go back down on the press look you for instance of the immediate t.v. station that your security forces raided in two thousand and seven physically abusing journalists destroying their equipment so it went back to the er so that's let me point out there but if you put your own car. in the station it also idea is still there well there are plenty of other stations they made a result of my work in the region where nobody quits on their own where they had full power much more to have here i quit on my own through elections i came as you shall have done absolutely i was you should have got through to you claim you click credit simply for doing what you make an old president in a normal country should not you know region you look around you know richard nobody does that jeopardy your former foreign minister said it was clear by the end of your first term you were using your thirty to create an unshakable power fiefdom
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your style of ruling ultimately or thora terry and it was what it was working for because private shareholder of course from your own issue that doesn't mean it was wrong there are plenty of other people you said called any of other people who said the same thing clued in the human rights organization we including them look at we move toward or from one of them to what would the worst place of doing business in one of the best quite sound position position we will endure spied on your own people it comprehensively you have a so-called dirty archive full of sex tapes featuring politicians activists and well known george stockpiled to use a new language he has ever struck by both repeat the russian propaganda nobody has ever produced it they all joined also to tell the twenty dollars from the governmental authority one hundred forty five of them nobody has ever produced in front of the press no it's not nobody has ever produced evidence of it it was all made up it was made up first by russian propaganda and repeated by brick is private . hold up i presume this is specifically prohibited to put any together any
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evidence of private life this is very important for me personally because that's exactly what they've been using against me and the previous government that's what they're trying to use against me and i just hate those enjoy your little ga system was far from ideal but georgia had the best reforms in terms of corruption in this region georgia had the best four promises to short of that of course the judicial system which wasn't there georgia had georgia's government when they're talking about give them take care that they had best investigate in the world so we're looking for my old shorts for my account for my something they couldn't find anyone who really believe in jesus of the so called years revelation rose revolution nino bush and there's a sense in two thousand and twelve ga had become like the bolshevik system you know for sure sign you're an enemy of the people she is the biggest admirer of putin she or she is the biggest friend that's all and that's a smear isn't noble not just because she said no question no answer about no more
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with russia in two thousand and eight you get back you know said people who say the time for questions will come on traitors and russian spies know that this is not about you this is no my internal this me it is about my terminology they were called people like that traitorous but traitors is not my point but in her case she accepts she after a war in georgia after russian invasion into georgia she went to putin and. basically was to the front of russian military parade troops that killed her compatriots she was a woman she doesn't deny that she talked to the to she stood person as a russian she was somebody the russians somebody without any proof what that they're supportive calls her role model says what putin wants to do you know what else is what else is not what you said well i'm a role model you never should it never consider that it's an insult to compare it to put in pursuit was going to only one criticizing. the right person she wasn't the only worked. he you criticized your handling of the war well they said that
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they did evidence damning indictment of you accusing your administration of effectively starting the war no that's not what they said they said they said sure partial and they said acting in the notes of the moment no that's what they. were in two thousand and no that's what not what they said they said that russian troops were the first to enter georgian territory but the peak action was started by our response and you know i would see any other president in the world not responding to foreign army entering their territory and they said we'll eventually be a tional decided that both sides bore responsibility for the conflict that they did look that look which flatly contradicts your version you know their fingers that small country georgia was invaded by a hundred times bigger country with russia at every time they want to go to war and then they said there is a there is a trend to blame of the weak team because then international community had to do something about it but despite the fact what to ukraine that happened after that we have so many of much evidence gathered up there that it's obvious what was an international community did help you know you're looking here you are in ukraine
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yes looking for help from the international community of course i always tell you and i say little fight to the end fight for what stay out of jail no no i. could take plan tonight including stay out of the jail i can go to when you can so why don't you want to because i hope you're enjoying having the time you know because because you have different from everybody made me come back to what you said i don't want to be the source of all evil we always oligarchs are winning in georgia in moldova in ukraine all around the place and we cannot give them such a easy right we cannot give in to make such an easy we've got these guys are humiliating people they are corrupt they are killing the prospects and future for this country ultimately they'll blow up this country because the country will disintegrate and actually exist somewhere in netherlands and look at it quietly i just can't do it because it's really good to have you on the program for his wife much indeed thank you you thank.
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