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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Mikheil Saakashvili  Deutsche Welle  January 25, 2018 9:30am-10:01am CET

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people here think anywhere else. and more and more chechen fighters are now returning home they're both respected and feared. how will this affect chechen society. today. my guess this week here in kiev is stateless he's a former president of georgia a former regional governor in ukraine and hanging over him multiple allegations of criminal activity and a three year prison sentence for abuse of power he's mikao saakashvili once the darling of the west for spearheading the rose revolution in georgia in two thousand and three but has he now made too many enemies and run out of road.
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we hear saakashvili welcome to conference so thank you for inviting me it's been a bizarre few weeks for you one moment you're promising to unite for the opposition against the president then you're threatening to throw yourself off the roof of a block of flats well that's not that's not exactly true i didn't throw myself out i told them you know i told if they come and try to put handcuffs on me we would all fall and that was actually true but they never tried it at that place but i went to the roof because my cell phone was jammed and i needed to call people saw i had to go to the roof it had very problematic written till the end one person message got through at the edge of the roof so that's how telecommunications worked but this is this is street thirty involved and a lot of people are wondering whether you've lost the plot and that well look it's not about me i think people have you made it about you then which made it about you yeah well it's a little trick in their lives the only english lady. let's the government is doing
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all kind of bizarre feelings that in many ways is making it about me because seems to have been walled in all kind of all kind of manipulation to squeeze me out of ukraine you know police. leaders you cross an international border with an invalid passport you're asking for it doesn't look it all started. just my party or somebody else's name then they deprived me of nationality legally then they didn't let me back illegally because i had the document to enter at least i had the right to be considered as an applicant to come back. they didn't want to they obviously want to come back we're sure wanted to do with that but you know another day another stunt is in the you know i wanted to come back because i believe in the future of this country and i believe that i have place in the future of this country as simple as that and these guys don't want me here period one moment you are screaming at the people to go take to the streets throw out. and the thieves as you put it yes and then you write him a letter saying oh it's nothing personal. it's nothing personal i actually will
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bring a mixed message you know that i made it very clear that i am willing it's nothing personal about me it's not about persia per se it's about the only go to my feet. absolutely behold the whole clique feet but it's doesn't mean that i'm but apart from that it's not the only thing i made clear we would talk about about the terms of transition because this country needs the countries in the trouble trouble ukraine might there isn't a great just fall apart if this whole thing continues and i'm very worried about parading through the streets wearing a flag and carrying. what is it. only one of these things and you know that wasn't of my choice that and when you say put it on me and you seem to revel in selfies i'm the one who gets most of the selfies you told a reporter well that's part of the job some of you like being in the public eye you're enjoying this in the house leadership but we don't public support. i cannot
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achieve much the only thing that can keep me moving here to the only thing we can achieve something here in the situation where the legal system is failing the situation don't work ukraine basically east so far. absolutely failed this is the only way how can get it for all your messages for people for but you see the principle for publish it no i we need their support for a result ukraine needs to be rescued ukraine is the biggest country in europe and its right now failing maybe it doesn't want to be rescued by you i mean a couple of years ago when you go to your poll ratings with good you claimed last august to be always among the three or four most popular politicians but even here that's not saying much these days is a poll last september by the international republican institute showed that seventy percent of ukrainians have a somewhat favorable or very unfavorable view of you let me say ukraine is right now hate all the politicians but this is the poll from december and from the point december percent of ukraine's would support my candidate for prime ministership and
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actually they supported more than half of them support more or less forty six this is this is one poll but plenty of other point yes actually you only two percent giving you a very favorable no under two percent the exact opposite of. this is international going from here that's what you may be september or whatever but using things like that there was a bill ayers last fall from the. november something like that which is the latest poll that you mentioned gave me the same exactly the same ratings at present present person was all their own media and i was pretty unpopular pretty unpopular so that's not the biggest concern is going to say you set the bar pretty low pretty low but unfortunately most of ukrainian politics are there but we've been since we start this moment since we actually really took up this battle flag battle we've been moving ahead by parties and making it to parliament despite the blockage as i said thirty four percent in this poll are supporting my canvas for prime minister and. basically people main thing is people are supporting our agenda that's more
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important personally you say than you insisted to a magazine called as you said ukrainians would never forgive you if you just gave up the fight against corruption will never forgive you that is if you are the last best savior of this country while some people people believe like that so i don't i don't think the two percent who gave you a very favorable rating are so you have thousands never seen my dad ever anybody had mobilized such large crowds in the streets of kiev as we did this december and this is. all all about me but i helped to do it with brew group of people lots of good people lots of new places but its value because you told of magazine said if i gave up that would mean i'm just like everybody else and all my life i've tried not to be just like so it is all about you know absolutely it's not going to like this look this politicians talk about their vision you talk about you in this you. know i talk i just made a film which is all about ukraine's future you create how you can crank and make
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talk about new political system new colony new energy system new. industry if you crank it's all about you cracked my legacy in short it's all about results i would like to come into the living let's talk about your time as governor yes in twenty fifteen go off your job governor region and you went with a reformist zeal absolute like that you said people expected with a real revolution comes real change but we have the revolution that basically didn't produce real change now is the time to resolve and then eighteen months later you say you've been sabotaged really cause that's the fact of life you don't and you didn't expect it this is known as well one of the most of the tourist areas of corruption exact in ukraine a very corrupt country in ukraine and you just gave it eighteen months and then gave up exactly because when i went there we all believed he did i brought with me we all believe that russia and called would have. interest in supporting us that
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care will lead would have steak and support you so they would be that easy i thought that they had you know it's all started nicely and well it all started beautiful people brought this government oppression fifty four percent we had my dad and we'd all the criticism we had of them and with all the scraps that we had of them we still thought they'll make this time it will be different why because it was after my dad because that's the european choice because you know how entrenched corruption is so you start somewhere only get one thousand that's all you were prepared you know given. the ukrainian civil rights advocate said last year he knew he quit early just blaming everything and everyone else for not achieving anything you hearing that people that's not exactly right we didn't achieve anything we built the road that had been built for forty years we had it built we brought a lot of new people for the customs of the first time in history of that city of odessa customs police and prosecutors were not corrupt that's quite an achievement we're now i would have prepared to prepare to build this new singapore they're already the new but it didn't exactly work that needs another level of support but
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we showed the people different and i think that some kind of legacy even if i'm not i'm totally unhappy with it and i'm not satisfied with my performance but we could achieve as much as we could let me put it this way the trouble was the job wasn't high profile enough wasn't big enough didn't have enough power and you're still hungry for power run amok job there's a governor was very high profile in ukraine because it was the front line of fighting for it for basically for against corruption and for unity of ukraine to talk to western journalists in december last december that you had your eyes on a role in the future government ideally as problem in the world social you're hungry no power let me let me put us in a way to put a very plain when persian gulf or twice to become prime minister i declined i declined because i thought it would be window dressing i declined because he wanted me to use my popularity at that moment to kind of do this p.r. stunt for him but i thought that it would not when i asked him would i be allowed.
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to have my ministers would i be allowed to have it with dialogue call for new elections together with him if we wanted a real change he said absolutely not then i said i cannot take the job but of course if we have new elections we have change of the new people and if people want me to serve as prime minister and for percent at the book according to the sports i showed they supported you know why not i. think you are going to make progress in this country by making serious allegations constantly against powerful people you think after you've called everyone else a crook and everybody says you're a crook and you call them liars you think you're going to be the last man standing here it becomes a joke is that you said poroshenko is a thief who is mega corrupt and he's plundering the whole of europe we we will go to parliament and call for his impeachment serious charges but you laid not one shred of evidence while there is hardly more than there is well there's plenty of evidence would you you say this year but you don't do the hard look we don't do the analysis you don't know we do you say shows you know you haven't we did you haven't
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pointed out that we in the public domain everybody says this about we just had a bunch of big scandals very well documented about president abusing his power about president of using for office taking part in money laundering reinforcing the all the guards having direct conflict of course the proof that you could take to court the proof to which court the court that they were you caused full course at full control by the way we have courts look we have lots of lawsuits against them in every court but as a rule we are losing the legal system in this country does work all those control political power media prosecutors courts police system and every time you make a major allegation like justice you don't provide the evidence you devalue. i think i think we are getting more and more support of the people people are getting awareness i think we saw in romania what had happened when the situations that failed people i think ukrainians and were no worse than romanians i think they will as well. eventually for
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a peaceful protest force institutions to work to perform their duty and to get rid of the corrupt oligarchies you are using these allegations the way a lot of politicians use slogans you somehow don't feel the need to prove them but you just call them crooks and you prince case call them or. a fortune almost entirely so mr bennett plays that's almost a cliche let's face it do you think that gets rid of the need to actually provide solid evidence. in this but the worst voted out the biggest biggest business ukraine has ukraine is not growing economies agony ukraine has ukraine has become the poorest per capita g.d.p. per capita country in europe and on the strength of that you tell them they're all crooks and as a result this is a result of this corruptly that wouldn't stand up and then of course i notice you have president owning becoming part and to because all that goes on electricity monopoly then he raises prices and that's because it's not even there and you knew this before you did go on the job so look no new this you know but if you know he was a lonely guy you knew he hadn't sold your chocolate business good even though he promised
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to do this while you had no illusions or you should have had no illusions about what you were getting into you gave in eighteen months and you call the movie rocks you throw up your hands and then you walk out and not think is that when we started we both believe that he had unique chance to become somebody else yes he had pulled the score up but because of the connection but on the other hand people came he meant it and we believe that in this and he started quite well he brought some quite some young people he allowed us to have some autonomy he allowed us to create an enchanter corruption bureau he loved to have transparent loan purchases their second kid allowed us to create national to corruption pure and also to create a new police force. so there are good number of steps taken the right direction not that everything was so bad but at certain moment this all came into conflict with his personal interest and personal of all the cards and then he had a choice and unfortunately made absolutely wrong choice to decide well if i had been in his place i would never have opted. for forbes list of billionaires we have
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become a historic figure you would rather be billionaires than be a. difference of view you claimed in december that a presidential emissary visit to do said all your problems would go away current accusations of conceiving illegal funds or that if you would simply criticize the opposition politician julia to michelle and stop criticizing him i was told my troubles would be over if i agreed to these things i would get my passport back in five minutes but when you were asked for the name of the emissary you wouldn't give it the one detail that would have substantiated your story you couldn't provide well but that's because that's basically the person that i didn't want to because one of yours that because he wasn't to blame for it if you want i mean it gives you credibility and if you don't give the name you have no credibility with the story every set up to prove that he was right after that everything that their management would happen how does anyone know that you didn't just make up the report they told me we will go after you will create so-called compromise don't you will put it on
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television we will it we will but you're still here we will still yes we will your rights under arrest we will arrest you and we'll throw you out of the country you're always saying the courts agree to steer the courts actually refuse to put you on i think this was so we did what outfit charged exceptional judge who said that all the evidence against me is fake that it's all empty that they should be let set free and that they are justice in ukraine there's one person and she was immediately dismissed right now she's fair and you're free to talk you're free to walk around here she says you are but you're free to be here i have to put you on a plane to join up because they could because i still have off base they could say they did it with my some of my people but them something else they point to several groups of georgian back on their head and with special flights to prepare separate it's a special flight they sent people away and i'm somebody else when i was in prison in k.g.b. prison here fifty thousand people took to the streets and went after. i presume
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that was quite a message for the government that's why i think it's also interesting judge it really showed it that i'm not alone and people are standing but that's what matters let's let's talk about georgia don't you the fifth in a sense here convicted you of abuse of power gave you a three year jail term. they say that in two thousand and eight you misused your presidential pardon for police officers convicted of the murder of a banker sandra give clearly and the pardons were part of a deal to cover up evidence surrounding the killing yes well look you say that's a lie no nobody has ever tried it more than just your presence for party you remember bill clinton. you know pardoning it's not just about partly it's about whether you covered up evidence surrounding to kill nobody has ever. short makes it absolutely limited right for president or the first second. term and they were pardoned together with hundred thirty three military officers potential holes yes
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yes huge holes in a case heard in two thousand and eleven the european court of human rights just slammed the entire investigation and implicated you in the cover up didn't you know it said it was struck by how the different branches of state park at the ministry of the interior the public prosecutor's office the prisons department the domestic courts and the president of georgia all acted in concert in preventing justice from being down that's a huge allegation against you at the same time european court of human rights just last december it sat on the case against my former prime minister who is in prison that he is the only he is basically hostage to the fact that they were looking for some kind of evidence against me and because they refused to provide it it was a purely political case the government of georgia have hired hand best world investigators like a retired well president is totally out of this government of georgia that's controlled by because private shareholders this is two thousand you have a little bit a little while you are state you will still be as. the exactly but let me tell you
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what's happening now i know but let's not get away from what happened there in europe there was a huge outcry in georgia and about the european court at this but on the other hand president limited right to pardon this case is purely political adultery the suggestion was. really the good clearly was murdered on the orders of one of your senior colleagues and the four policemen were persuaded to take the hit in return for bill money and the only so-called bird who got it put them on this massive water he said they were convicted and this are big part of they were convicted in a trial where the judge didn't even ask about their motive but you know the same a trial was fourteen you know where you know the big no that's to this very same judge has been used in cases against my government members already by this government so judges are forced learn the mother of the victim was threatened and told to stay silent offered money if she stayed silent and told she would be silenced she opened her love this case was dirty through and through wasn't it
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mischievous look country i took at the george it was a field country with the way back you wouldn't expect to turn pale country with no budget we've not functioning institutions that turned. very performing brilliant success and reforms but it couldn't have been turned into absolute perfectly so that was an excuse me very very familiar the liberal democracy that's an excuse for venting testing lingeringly style judicial system our judicial system had been failing this is true i would admitted to the accusation is that you prevent this from not being that it's just not true our duty easy to our judicial system was we and our judicial system is it worse now but your human rights record wasn't that good because of the time years ago once it was it you would let it go back down on the press look you for instance of the media t.v. station that your security forces raided. in two thousand and seven physically
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abusing journalists destroying their equipment so it went back to the earth so that's let me point out there but if you put your own car. in the station those idea is still there. there are plenty of other stations they may result of my work in the region where nobody quits on their own where they had full power much more to have here i quit on my own through elections i came through peaceful times you should have done absolutely as you should have absolutely no you claim are you claiming credit simply for doing what yemen can or present in a normal country should not you know region you look around in the region nobody does that japery see your form of your minister said it was clear by the end of your first term you were using your story to create an unshakeable power fiefdom your style of ruling out some ugly or thorough terror and it was what it was working for because private shareholder from even issued that doesn't mean it was wrong there are plenty of other people you said called any of other people who said
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the same thing clued in the human rights organizations we including them look at. georgia from one of them to what would be worst place of doing business in one of the best four hundred twenty seven position to nine percent and your spied on your own people comprehensively you have a so-called dirty archive full of sex tapes featuring politicians activists and well known george stockpiled to use and nobody has ever struck by both repeat the russian propaganda nobody has ever produced it they all still i'd also like to tell the twenty dollars from the government you know tory one hundred forty five of them nobody has ever produced in front of the press. nobody has ever produced evidence of it it was all made up it was made up first by russian propaganda and repeated by british private shareholder i presume specifically for he bit to put any together any evidence of private life this is very important for me personally because that's exactly. they've been used against me and the previous government that's
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what they're trying to use against me and i just hate those enjoyed you know it georgia is the most part from ideal but georgia had the best reforms in terms of corruption in this region georgia had the best four promises to short of that of course the judicial system which wasn't there georgia had georgia's government when they're talking about three of them they care that they had best investigate in the world so looking for my own source for my account for my something they couldn't find anyone who will be calling leaders of the so called years revelation rose revolution nino and there's a sense in two thousand and twelve ga had become like the bolshevik system you know for sure size is a vision you're an enemy of the people she is the biggest admirer of putin she or she is the biggest friend that's why that's a smear isn't noble not just because you just said no more questions no answer about the whole war with russia in two thousand and eight you hit back not at people who say the time for questions will come on traitors and russia. this is not
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an issue this is no my interest me it is not my terminology they were called people like that traitors and spectators is not my thing but in her case she accepts she after a war in georgia after russian invasion into georgia she went with putin and. basically was to the front of russian military parade troops that killed her compatriots she was a woman she doesn't deny that she talked to peter she stood personal as a russian she was just somebody the russians somebody without any proof she saw what the. support of calls her role model says what putin wants to do you know what else it was is not want children and i'm a role model never should it never consider that it's an insult to compare it to put in pursuit was going to only one criticizing. the right person she wasn't the only one the e.u. criticized your handling of the war well they said that they did evidence damning indictment of you accusing your administration of effectively starting the war no that's not what they said they said that is. they said acting in the notes of the
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moment no that's what they're said i want to know in two thousand and no that's what not what they said they said that russian troops were the first to enter georgian territory but the action was started by our response and you know i would see any other president in the world not responding to for an army entering the territory of basically basically they should decided that both sides bore responsibility for the conflict that they did look that they did say look which flatly contradicts your version you know the thing is that small country georgia was invaded by a hundred times bigger country with russia at every time they wanted to get a war and then they said there is a there is a trend to blame of the weak team because then international community had to do something about it but despite the fact that to ukraine that happened after that we have so many of much evidence gathered up that it's all painfully obvious what the international community did to help you and now you're looking here you are in ukraine yes looking for help from the international community of course i always tell you i'm not saying we fight to the end fight for what stay out of jail no no i
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would like to include these for god's sake i could take plane tonight and flew it to stay out of the jail i can go to any country why don't you want to because i have you enjoying having the time all because of because you're different from everybody i mean come back to what you said i don't want to be the source of all evolution oligarchs are winning in georgia in moldova in ukraine all around the place and we cannot give him. the right we cannot give in to make such an easy with these guys are humiliating people they are corrupt they are killing the prospects and future for this country ultimately they will blow up this country because the country will disintegrate you can stand actually exist somewhere in netherlands and look at it quietly i just cannot do it because i'm just really good to have you on the program here for as well as much indeed thank you you thank .
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the be.
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cut. from anywhere in twenty seven to. donald trump became america's forty fifth president. how did she get to be the most powerful man. muster public transport alternative facts and disregard for the rules. on fair game. how trump won the beach fifteen minutes on the bus.
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where i come from we have to fight for a free press i was born and raised in a military dictatorship with just one t.v. shadow and if you missed a forest for the official information as a journey i have more calmness transept many cantrips and their problems are almost the same fourteen social inequality a lack of the freedom of the. we got the fortune stateside and when it comes to the sound something humans once you know microphones who have decided to put their trust in us. my name is paris and i aren't. the top stories found across social media shared commons and content welcome to the abusers.
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there's a saying a amongst many tribes in north america. before a tribal decision is made the elders consider seven generations in the future possibly two hundred years in the future this tells us effect of the tribes i have never heard a politician in the united states talk about seven generations in the future. you are not the only for our well being i suggest that new think in terms of the native people think less about personal ownership. possessions legal or a matter of community this is our opportunity to live here for a while. this
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is news coming to you live. the u.s. warns turkey its military action in syria risks bringing the. says it will continue operations to rid the region of u.s. backed kurdish militia despite the american forces deployed there. also coming up these cute baby monkey just don't just look alike clones. are calling it a breakthrough but now the question is. are we from cloning human.

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