tv Conflict Zone - Guest Mikheil Saakashvili Deutsche Welle January 29, 2018 12:30am-1:01am CET
can't you. my guest this week here in kiev is stateless he's a former president of georgia a former regional governor in ukraine and hanging over him multiple allegations of criminal activity and a three year prison sentence for abuse of power he's mikao saakashvili once the darling of the west for spearheading the rose revolution in georgia in two thousand and three but has he now made too many enemies and run out of road.
because saakashvili welcome to conferences thank you for inviting me it's been a bizarre few weeks for you well and you're promising to unite for the opposition against the president then you're threatening to throw yourself off the roof of a block of flats well that's not that's not exactly true i didn't from myself i told him no i told him if they come and try to put handcuffs on me we would all fall and that was actually true but they never tried it at that place but i went through the roof because my cell phone was jammed and i needed to call people saw i had to go to the roof it had very problematic written till the end while the first message got through at the edge of the roof so that's how telecommunications worked but this is this is street involved and a lot of people are wondering whether you've lost the plot and that well look it's not about me i think people have you made it about you then she donated about you yeah well it's a little personal lives here. let's let's let's lay the government is doing all
kind of bizarre things that in many ways is making it about me because since while you're they have been walled in all kind of all kind of manipulation to squeeze me out of ukraine you know police. leaders you cross an international border with an invalid passport you're asking for a country look it all started. just my party or somebody else's name then they deprived me of nationality legally then they didn't let me back illegally because i had the document to enter at least i had the right to be considered as an applicant to come back. well they didn't want to they obviously want to come back for sure i wanted to do with that but you know another day another stunt is in the you know i wanted to come back because i believe in the future of this country and i believe that i have place in the future of this country as simple as that and these guys don't want me here period from one moment you're screaming at the people to go take to the streets. and the thieves as you put it yes and then you write him
a letter saying oh it's nothing personal it's a personal let's have a chat it's nothing personal i actually will bring a ramp mixed message you know that i made it very clear that i am willing it's nothing personal about me it's not about persia per se it's about the only go to my feet. absolutely the whole the whole clique feet but it's doesn't mean that i'm that apart from that it's not the only thing i made clear we would talk about about the terms of transition because this country needs the countries in the trouble trouble ukraine might there isn't a great just fall apart if this whole thing continues and i'm very worried about parading through the streets wearing a flag and carrying. what is that how come only one of you think and you know that wasn't of my choice that anything you say put it on me and you seem to revel in selfies i'm the one who gets most of the selfies you told a reporter well that's part of the job some of you like being in the public eye you're enjoying this in the house leadership but we dealt. support i cannot achieve
much the only thing that can keep me moving here to the only thing we can achieve something here in this situation or a legal system is failing the don't work ukraine basically east so far the state with absolutely failed this the only way how can get it for all your messages for people for but you seem to support for published city no i we need support for a result ukraine needs to be rescued ukraine is the biggest country in europe and it's right now failing maybe it doesn't want to be rescued by you i mean a couple of years ago when you got to your poll ratings with goods you claimed last august to be always among the three or four most popular politicians but even here that's not saying much these days is a poll out of the by the international republican institute showed that seventy percent of ukrainians have a somewhat favorable or very unfavorable view of you let me say ukraine is right now i hate all the politicians but this is the poll from december and from the poll and december first three percent of ukraine's would support my canvas for prime
ministership and actually they supported more than half of them support more or less forty six this is this is one poll but plenty of other show you will be two percent giving you a very favorable no. exact opposite of. this is international policy maybe september or whatever but you think things like that there was a whole i.r.s. last poll from december. november something like that which is the latest poll that you mention gave me the same exact same ratings of private personal present question was all their own media and i was pretty unpopular pretty unpopular so that's not a big achievement but consider say you set the bar pretty low that's pretty low but unfortunately most of ukrainian politics are there but we've been since we start this moment since we actually really took up this flak about it we've been moving ahead by parties and making into parliament this blockage as i said thirty percent in this poll are supporting my canvas for prime minister. and basically people main
thing is people are supporting our agenda that's more important of course will you say then you insisted to a magazine last august you said ukrainians would never forgive you if you just gave up the fight against corruption will never forgive you that as if you're the last best savior of this country while some people people believe like that so i don't i don't think the two percent gave you a very favorable rating so you have thousands never seen my dad ever anybody had mobilized such large crowds in the streets of kiev as we did this december and this is. all all about me but i helped to do it with brew group of people lots of good young people lots of new places but it's about you because you told of magazine said if i gave up that would mean i'm just like everybody else and all my life i've tried not to be just like soldiers all about you know absolutely it's not going to like this look this kind of politicians talk about their vision you talk about you in this what you. know i talk i just made
a film which is all about ukraine's future you create how you can crank and make talk about new political system new colony new energy system new. tourist industry if you crank it's all about you create my legacy in short it's all about results i would like to come up to the. let's talk about your time as governor yes twenty fifteen must go off in just governor region and he went with a reformist zeal absolute like that you said people expected with the real revolution comes real change but we have the revolution that basically didn't produce real change now is the time to resolve this and then eighteen months later you say you've been sabotaged nearly cost that's their part of life you don't and you didn't expect that this is known as well one of the worst of the tourist areas of corruption exact in ukraine in a very corrupt country in ukraine and you just gave it eighteen months and then gave up exactly because when i went there we all believed. that i brought with me we will leave that question. would have interest in supporting us that lead would
have steak and support you so they would be that easy for that they had to know it's all started nicely and well it all started beautiful people brought this government fifty four percent we had my down and we'd all the criticisms we had of them and with all the scraps we had of them we still thought they'll make this time it will be different why because it was after my down because that's the european choice because you know how entrenched corruption in this country i was you start somewhere only get one thousand that's all you were prepared to give it maxime the u.k. ukrainian civil rights advocate said last year he knew he quit early just blaming everything and everyone else for not achieving anything you hearing that the well that's not exactly right we didn't achieve anything we built a road that hadn't been built for forty years we had it built we brought a lot of new people for the customs of the first time in history of the city of odessa customs police and prosecutors were not corrupt that's quite an achievement we're now i would have prepared to prepare to build this new singapore they're
already the new but it didn't exactly work that needs another level of support but we showed the people different and i think that's some kind of legacy even if i'm not i'm totally unhappy with it and i'm not satisfied with my performance but we could achieve as much as we could let me put it this way the trouble was the job wasn't high profile enough wasn't big enough didn't have enough power and you're still hungry for power running look pretty job for there's a governor was very high profile in ukraine because it was the front line of fighting for and for basically for against corruption and for unity of ukraine but you told a western journalist in december last december that you had your eyes on a role in the future government ideally as problem in the world social you're hungry no power let me let me put a small bit put a very plain went off or twice to become prime minister i declined i declined because i thought it would be window dressing i declined because he wanted me to use my popularity at that moment to kind of do this p.r. stunt for him but i thought that it would not when i asked him. would i be allowed
to have my ministers would i be allowed to have it would i be allowed to have a call for new elections together with him if we wanted the real changes that absent not then i said i cannot take the job but of course if we have new elections you have changeability you have new people and if people want me to service prime minister and for percent of the book according to the sports i showed they supported you know why not i. think you are going to make progress in this country by making serious allegations constantly against powerful people you think after you've called everyone else a crook and everybody says you're a crook and you call them liars you think you're going to be the last man standing here it becomes a joke is that you said poroshenko is a thief who is mega corrupt and he's plundering the whole of europe we will go to parliament and call for his impeachment serious charges but you laid not one shred of evidence while there is hardly more than there is well there's plenty of evidence would you you say this to you but you don't do the hard look we don't do
the analysis you don't know we do you say shows you know you haven't we did you haven't pointed out that we in the public domain everybody says this about we just had a bunch of big scandals very well documented about president abusing his power about president taking party money laundering re-inforcing the all the guards having direct conflict of where is the proof that you could take to court where is the proof to which court the court that they will be called full course that fully controlled by the way we are courts look we have lots of lawsuits against them in every court but as a rule we are losing the legal system in this country does work all just control political power media prosecutors courts police system and every time you make a major allegation like justin you don't provide the evidence you devalue the currency no i think i think we are getting more and more support of the people people are getting awareness i think we saw in romania what had happened when it failed people i think ukrainians are and were no worse than romanians i think they were killed there as well. they will eventually for
a peaceful protest force institutions to work to perform their duty and to get rid of the corrupt oligarchies you're using these allegations the way a lot of politicians use slogans you somehow don't feel the need to prove them but you just call them crooks and you prince case call them or. a fortune almost entirely but that's almost identically that's almost a cliche let's face it do you think that gets rid of the need to actually provide solid evidence. in this but the worst voted out there biggest biggest business ukraine ukraine is not growing economies in ukraine has ukraine has become to poorest per capita g.d.p. per capita country in europe and on the strength you tell them they're all crooks and as a result this is a result of this corruptly that wouldn't stand up and then of course we have laws you have president owning becoming part into because all that goes on electricity monopoly then he raises helicopters prices and there's nothing in there and you knew this before you did on the job so look no new this you know but you know he was a lonely guy you knew he hadn't sold your chocolate business even though he promised
to do this for you you had no illusions or you should have had no illusions about what you were getting into you gave in eighteen months and you call the movie rocks you throw up your hands and then you walk out nothing when we started we both believed that he had a unique chance to become somebody else yes he had built this corrupt background sort of connection but on the other hand people came to mend it and we believe in this that he started quite well he brought some quite some young people he allowed us to have some autonomy he allowed us to create an enchanter corruption bureau he allowed to have transparent purchases their second kid allowed us to create a national to corruption bureau and also to create a new police force. so there are a good number of steps taken the right direction not that everything was so bad but at certain moment this all came into conflict with his personal interests and personal of all the cars and then he had a choice and unfortunately made absolutely wrong choices. well if i had been in his place i would. never have opted for forbes list of billionaires we have become you
figure you would rather be billionaires than the. difference of vision you claimed in december that a presidential emissary visited you said all your problems would go away current accusations of conceiving illegal funds although if you would simply criticize the opposition politician julia to michelle and stop criticizing him i was told my troubles would be over if i agreed to these things i would get my passport back in five minutes but when you were asked for the name of the emissary you wouldn't give it the one detail that would have substantiated your story you couldn't provide well that's because that's basically the person that they wanted because one of yours that because he wasn't to blame for it you were there i mean it gives you credibility and if you don't give the name of credibility with the story every action that he was right after that everything that then management would happen how does anyone know that you didn't just make up because already what they told me
we will go after you will create so-called compromise don't you will put it on television we will it we will but you're still here we will it will you still yes we will you right under arrest we will arrest you and we'll throw you out of the country you're always saying the court the next year the courts actually refused to put you on i think this was so we didn't want that. exceptional judge who said that all the evidence against me is fake that it's all empty that they should be let free and justice in ukraine there's one person and she was immediately dismissed right now if you spend your free to talk you're free to wander around here she says you are but you're free to be here i have to put you on a plane to join up because they could because i still have off which they could and they did it with my some of my people but i'm something else they point to several groups of georgian back on their head and with special flights. separately such as special like this and people away and i'm somebody else when i was in prison in k.g.b. prison here fifty thousand people took to the streets and. actually my present was
that was quite a message to the government that's why i think it also influenced the judge it really showed it that i'm not alone and people are standing but that's what matters let's let's talk about georgia john you're the first in the sense here you of abuse of power gave you a three year jail term. they say that in two thousand and eight you misused your presidential power to pardon four police officers convicted of the murder of a banker sandra give clearly and the pardons were part of a deal to cover up evidence surrounding the killing yes well you say that's a lie no nobody has ever tried it more than just your presence for party you remember bill clinton. you know pardoning it's not just about partly it's about whether you covered up evidence surrounding to kill nobody has ever constitution of georgia makes it absolutely unlimited right for president to part of the first second. term and they were pardoned together with hundred thirty three other
military officers potential holes yes yes huge holes in a case heard in two thousand and eleven the european court of human rights just slammed the entire investigation and implicated you in the cover up didn't you know it said it was struck by how the different branches of state park at the ministry of interior the public prosecutor's office the prisons department the domestic courts and the president of georgia all acted in concert in preventing justice from being down that's a huge allegation against you at the same time the european court of human rights just last december it sat on the case against my former prime minister who is in prison that he is the only he is basically hostage to the fact that they were looking for some kind of evidence against me and because they refused to provide it it was a purely political case the government of georgia helped hired hand best world investigators like a retired general president you're totally out of this government of georgia that's controlled by because private shareholder but this is two thousand and you have a little bit older but what you always take you. still presidents day actually but
let me tell you what's happening now i know but let's not get away from what happened then europe there was a huge outcry in georgia and about the european court. but on the other hand president unlimited right to pardon this case is purely political and the suggestion was to let mr saakashvili the good clearly was murdered on the orders of one of your senior colleagues and the four policemen were persuaded to take the hit in return for bill money and only bird got it put them on this massive water he said they were convicted and served big part of their convictions in a trial where the judge didn't even ask about their motives but you know the same the trial was faulty you know the way you know that the big no that's tame judge this very same judge has been used in cases against my government members already by this government so the judge is a force of law and the mother of the victim was threatened and told to stay silent offered money if she stayed silent and told she would be silenced she opened her
love this case was dirty through and through wasn't it mischievous look country i took a short it was a field country would be way back you wouldn't expect to turn pale country not budget we've not functioned institutions that turned. very performing brilliant success and reforms but it couldn't have been turned into absolute perfectly so there was an excuse me very familiar the liberal democracy that's an excuse for venting testers and laying down. judicial system our judicial system had been failing this is true i was admitted to by your accusation is that you prevent this from not being but that's just not true our duty easy to our judicial system was we and our judicial system is it worse now but your human rights record wasn't that good because during the time years of you know once it was it you would let it go back down on the press look you for instance of the immediate t.v. station and your security force. israel did in two thousand and seven physically
abusing journalists destroying their equipment so it went back to the earth so that's a little point out there but if you put your own car. parked in the station little five year. there. there are plenty of other stations the main result of my work is in the region where nobody quits on their own where they had full power and much more to have here i quit on my own through elections i can prove peaceful times you should have done absolutely as you should have to look at how you claim you click credit simply for doing what you any good old president in a normal country should not region you look around in the region nobody does that tito japery see your form of foreign minister said it was clear by the end of your first term you were using your thirty to create an unshakable power fiefdom your style of ruling ultimately and it was what it was working for because. you've been issued that doesn't mean it was wrong there are plenty of other people you said
called any of other people who said the same thing clued in the human rights organization we including them look at we move toward or from one of them to what would the worst place of doing business in one of the best hundred twenty seven position tonight position we would endure spied on your own comprehensively not you have a so-called dirty archive is full of sex tapes featuring politicians activists and well known georgian stockpiled to use and nobody has ever struck by both repeat the russian propaganda nobody has ever produced it they all still and also to tell the twenty dollars truth in the government's no jury one hundred forty five of them nobody has ever produced in front of the press. nobody has ever produced evidence of it it was all made up it was made up first by russian propaganda and repeated by biggest private shareholder of kasparov. specifically for he bit to put any together any awareness of private life this is very important for me personally because. that's exactly what they've been using against me and the previous
government that's what they're trying to use against me and i just hate those enjoyed you know if georgia system was far from ideal but georgia had the best reforms in terms of corruption in this region georgia had the best for problem institutions short of that of course best judicial system which wasn't there georgia had georgia's government when they're talking about people they care that they had best investigate in the world so looking for my own source for my account for my something they couldn't find anyone who will be holding leaders of the so-called yes revelation role rose revolution nino. set in two thousand and twelve ga have become like the bolshevik system you know for sure science is a vision you're an enemy of the people she is the biggest admirer of putin she or she is the biggest friend that's all and that's a smear isn't noble not just because you just said no more questions no answer about no or with russia in two thousand and eight you hit back you know said people who say the time for questions will come on traitors and russian spies know it this
is not an issue this is no my interest this media is not my terminology they were called people like that traitor since but traitors is not my term but in her case she accepts she after a war in georgia after russian invasion into georgia she went to putin and. basically was to the front of russian military parade troops that killed her compatriots she was a woman she doesn't deny that she talked to the she stood person as a russian she was just somebody the russians somebody without any proof she saw what the military steps that supported calls her role model says what putin wants to do you know what else it was. a role model you know or should it never consider that it's an insult to compare it to put in pursuit was going to only one criticizing. the right person she wasn't the only one the e.u. criticized your handling of the war well they said that they delivered a damning indictment of you accusing your administration of effectively starting the war no that's not what they they said. he says you're partial they said acting
in the notes of the moment no that's what they're saying in two thousand and no that's what not what they said they said that russian troops were the first to enter georgian territory but the big action was started by our response and you know i would see any other president in the world not responding to a foreign army entering the territory and they said we've actually been a single decided that both sides bore responsibility for the conflict that they did look that they did say look which flatly contradicts your version you know the thing is that small country georgia was invaded by a hundred times bigger country with russia at every time they wanted to get a war and then they said there is a there is a trend to blame of the with him because then international company had to do something about it but despite the fact that to ukraine had happened after that we have so many of much evidence gathered up that it's all painfully obvious what the international community did to help you and now you're looking here you are in ukraine yes looking for help from the international community of course i always tell you and you are saying we fight to the end fight for what stay out of jail no
no i would like to include just for god's sake i could take plane tonight and flew to stay out of the jail i can go to when you can someone i'd sure want to because you're enjoying having that time all because because you different from everybody like me come back to what you said i don't want to be the source of all going oligarchs are winning in georgia in moldova in ukraine all around the place and we cannot give him. the right we cannot give in to make such an easy week that these guys are people they are corrupt they are killing the prospects and future for this country ultimately they will blow up this country because the country will disintegrate because it actually says sarwari netherlands and look at it quietly i just cannot do it because i'm just really good to have you on the program queue for it as well as much in the thank you you thank .
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this is due to every news coming to live from berlin police have released russian opposition leader alexei navalny the outspoken kremlin critic was arrested after making a short appearance at an anti putin rally earlier today police raided number all these offices also coming up. another day of heavy fighting in syria's region turkey claims a diplomatic success and its offensive against a u.s. backed kurdish militia. and swedish founder in.