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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Khemaies Jhinaoui  Deutsche Welle  February 22, 2018 1:30pm-2:01pm CET

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sometimes you just have to pick up the ball you. can't think can't. use it magazine d.w. . after seven years to newsier remains the one arab country to emerge from the so-called arab spring as a functioning democracy or does it my guest here at the munich security conference is chemists to now eat the country's foreign minister has the shine finally come off the revolution and with it the hope of a better future. makes
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you know he welcomed conflict thank you very much for having to be you told a newspaper in india last november two zero is now as secure as any country in the world it's not true is that when i think compared to two thousand and fifteen sixteen i can repeat the same statement today as secure as any country in the world are five areas listed as no go areas by the state department u.s. state department no but i mean when i said this because i compared with two thousand and fifteen when we had the first that is to actually attack and then on the night two thousand sixteen today i think that our forces are better trained well equipped but not as secure as any country in the world whereas most of the country's elite yes when you read what the state department. to say give you an
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example western mountains and champion national park terrorist groups continue to operate in the mountains of western tunisia job are ok for kasserine the algerian border terrorist groups continue to operate in these areas city busied in central tunisia terrorist groups continue to operate in this area that doesn't sound very stable exaggerated frankly these are the presidents apartment doesn't know we're talking about let me tell you these are the fringes i mean on the border of tunisia these are you have talking about mountains and these mountains of course we never said that talk about territory in tunisia yet but these are. these are very small groups they are very well tackled by our forces we know them where they are moving and we are following them but i put it to you that your advice is dangerously misleading limits not people believe the state department with the biggest most sophisticated intelligence service in the world or the ministry of a country who wants to revive its tourist and military to wage this statement is
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not saying that we need is not secured i just saying place is not to go again not go there yeah but do not go in you know also you have places where you are not to go with what will work very very terrorist threats well all over the world yes but they are not no go areas because literally there is no territory in tunisia held by terrorists there is no but i know that they said no terrorist groups continue to operate in this area three three four five areas yes but he said that they are not holding territories they are a few groups they are acting we are following them but they have been this threat we are aware of it but they are not targeting we are not thin like other middle eastern countries where the terrorists were able to hold that or at least tunisia is completely and their control of the state mrs you know your own interior minister gave a vivid picture of the hugely extensive terrorist operating in your country. he
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said in twenty seventeen e broken up fourteen network sending terrorists to conflict zones six terror networks more than one hundred twenty terrorist recruiting cells how many hundreds of others are there that you don't know about well that which you haven't got this is a hugely extensive network of terrorists operating in new york yes but these are the interior of these scenes these these shows for so world that our forces now they know about the sense they were working to give us these cells they don't know about the next one yeah but they know that but let's be very happy that to tell you the last two years tunisia was immune of any terrorist threat this is the belief that of our security forces. you have several thousand tunisians who went off to fight with isis and reputed to be the largest per capita number from any country some of them have been filtering back home we don't know how good your border controls are in twenty fifteen report by transparency international said your
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security and customs officials suffered from a lack of transparency and scrutiny so we don't know how good your border controls are these people coming back in first you can't be complacent and affect us we can first of all speaking about several thousands i think here you are exaggerating these are reports by the media these are reports they said several several thousand there's i didn't say seven i said several several thousands nobody is able to count them to say that they're true these are people working i mean fighting in the hotspots nobody and they are coming and they have suffered and you have no property radicalization program in your country no property radicalization program according to the tunisian form for economic and social rights there's not there's not a program there is no problem of what radicalize a show of course there is of course there is there is a comprehensive policy regarding trying to derail radicalize or these young
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people it's a reason that they are they say whatever they like but i'm telling you on behalf of the government that there is a national comprehensive program that link with the working with women with the in education in social affairs and its involvement on the department of m. maybe but a lot of these people have come back are sitting under house arrest but even if you are going to deal with them of course if they can sell it and that's not the radicalization no exam is a can in any in any democratic country were which is the respecting the rule of law these people when they come back of course they are held and they're awaited by the police and if found guilty big. to the court and of course they would be prosecuted because according to melissa talk about your claim to be respecting the law because your government's commitment to human rights and democracy has also been contested the international crisis group warned last month the two newseum was
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drifting back towards its old or thora tarion reflexes something i'm sure you will deny but freedom house reported that your failure to consolidate democracy meant a sharp decline in this year's freedom index reflecting a pattern of authoritarian behavior and the president subsea but freedom house rated treaties are the first. and the meta reason freedom house to easy is the most free country and that it's not living up to the hopes says with the latest downgrade they've downgraded it is number one they downgraded let you take me in the early days about one but they have downgraded our lead the bear latest downgrade to newseum has come dangerously close to losing its status as the only free greely to merge from the arab states these kind of reports this is not reported by everybody. frankly speaking i don't know which most of most of the human rights organizations western you're right organization they do not have
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a good picture and i want to go into some of these they do not have a good picture of your progress towards a democratic so let me tell you what we are doing in the program we'll explain to you that we are but i just want to make the point that it didn't inspire confidence last september that three of the new faces in the government had served as ministers during the dictatorship of ben ali and if they are able and capable to do or to handle their departments i mean that does not mean they have not got prosecuted by the by the justice they were never said that these people you know the committed any crime that we don't have the old system what signal does that send what depends what the purpose of the revolution for if you didn't bring back all these old faces yes old traitors but the these people be they didn't serve. a lot of the tater you. they were not. implicated you know involved in any criminality is there is no reason not to or frankly speaking in a democratic system there is no reason to recruit able people to run
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the country when there aren't that the country is going through thought different so we are missing is a test of our generally did you really imagine tunisia and staged a revolution in order to see these old and discredited faces brought back according to the carnegie endowment bensalem. bensalem was widely seen as an apologist of the old regime for denying its human rights violations also controversially or finance minister really the child whom who was named in the carnegie endowment posting as being close to the ben ali family and these billions of people you want that will frankly i don't doubt about that i've got a better engine is definitely not that many people but these people going to think about sending there's no signal we didn't choose them because they belong to the old regime and i mean the chief of the government the prime minister chose them because he thought that these people are the right people for the this time the
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department of education and the finest this is not you want to collect you want to correct the evils of the past and you bring back the people who are sometimes sociate it with somebody who's available but these people they were not involved in security they didn't grab very people or they were not and weren't in touch or these people are a civil servant the ministers they were minister yes they have they have these two people they were running technical departments they were not related to politics. months tunisia saw widespread social protests in january there was widespread concern among western human rights groups the way your government handled them even the un's high commission in the house right how our government handled this that i yes the un's high commission. for human rights yes or to kill early exercised by the many hundreds of people you arrested and felt the need to remind you that all those detained should have full respect for their rights those concerns were justified wouldn't let me first tell you of the protest in the
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democracy it's a healthy sign. our founders larry about the way let me complaining about here way you handle yes throw away the whole fight to protest let me tell you really and that actually in that our forces handed these protest with a lot of professionalism there was no single casualties these that are were running towards that of the looters but no single country if in any democracy in the world it can happen some some accident but here sitting over there at these one of accidents on january the thirty first human rights watch accused your police of beating up some of the people detained and denying their right to a lawyer under two new zealand law that's a direct violation of your own laws. i am not aware of this practice because i don't know from where you're reading this tunisian league of human rights yes visited twenty three suspects yes in the morning or gear prison on january the
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seventeenth they reported that most of them had marks consistent with beatings on their bodies but sister allegations of mistreatment mistreatment of police see a deliberate policy introducer today i can't tell you know if there are so you married her out of control or not but if there are incident i can't i can't say what had presented the didn't happen but this is not what they can afford to do today but this is not a deliberate state police to get back the military is not a privilege careless then if it isn't a state policy because it is going on there is no witnesses were interviewed and victims were interviewed as well according to human rights watch some people were arrested simply for distributing leaflets that the government didn't like calling for social justice there and there is the result your commitment is very speedy it's the arrest of six had people seven hundred are unemployed and one thousand
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seven hundred more than seven hundred these people most all of them they have been freed those who were involved in looted vandalism they went to the court and they have been persecuted according to the low twenty's and today is a country which respects the role of the rule of law to call the war criminals and looters it's the same kind of no matter the old regime in the you see you got all of them now frankly speaking of the i didn't say that all of them there are some of these people expressing real social dispatcher have well mr and they are in the light weight clear because now and governments in the last seven years of failed to meet their expectations of the nine governance system. let me tell you with this living in the transition and in any transition period of course you. have stability of the government this is this but the question is is that how is the transition going forwards or backwards it's going and a lot of these reckon i would suggest that they're going to announce that there is a national consensus not just the government including the opposition but the
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demarc that is a national who will to consolidate the transitional the democratic transition in tunisia and there is no going back there is no return link and there is no there is a strong will to continue on the path of consolidating the democratic process we're told of that during last year's universal periodic review at the union human rights council your country came under sustained criticism for aspects of its behavior the international as well as many other groups voiced concern about impunity for torture and pointed out there had actually been few if any successful prosecutions of your officials for torture that's a disgraceful cannot ascension first of all let me these cases they are in the court and if they are in the court today in tunisia we will keep to have an independent justice so it's up to the justice courts to decide about the screen not
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in the special rapporteur on the promotion of truth justice and reparations said last year many alleged perpetrators of gross human rights violations remained active in your security services how can that be. some sort of special rapporteur on the promotion of truth justice and report resurrection is it really as you see he's a un special rapporteur so he reported actual universal periodic review session here last year at the un human rights council saying that the we continued saying that many alleged perpetrators are still employed and active in your security services so you don't even suspend them when they are the suspicion and well i think most of them they have. suspended they don't say that one have percent now there is no people suspected to be be involved in these kinds of practices but the most of them are found one of the penalties for torture in your country it's all
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relative such the torture is forbidden by law an example of that is not is in two cases in july twenty fifteen where officials were found guilty they received a suspended sentence but that's not bad not a deterrent yes but that's not the government meeting torture yes but person not the government of presiding over a country that doesn't deal with basic justice here but this is a matter of justice is not a matter for the you are talking to executive minister alexander you proud of this and not of course i'm not so what's going to govern about is happening if we are i am sure my people and our people let their looking into to these shortcomings and they are trying their best to others the. her amnesty international put it since two thousand and eleven the overwhelming majority of credible allegations of torture and other serious violations by security forces have not been independently and impartially investigated is that the sort of country that you would want to preside over the this is another bit of the way i think that it's not about making
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this stuff up mark most people have lost most most of the tunisian people most of the political families in tunisia and this is not the kind of country they want they want to full fledge a democratic country we are proud of the she went we have already made we are not yet a democracy to be honest we are not yet a democracy we never pretended that we are full we finished actually our promises we have over masses we are on the path of reaching a democratic system where transparency the rule of law one hundred percent will be respected decision we have made yet mrs you told the human rights council your government last year in response to their many criticisms that you would ensure all allegations of torture impartially investigated when well let me when you heard. that commitment of the government if my my people you know said to the in geneva this that shows that of course they are doing but when how frankly you are
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asking me question the question which if you knew that you were going to ask me this i would have brought you the details for you what are you a human rights minister met told amnesty international last year it was taking time he said taking time to overcome the ben ali legacy my question to you why is it taking time if you tell your police not to torture people anymore why is it taking time for them to have daily or a well first of all we have to educate our police we have to train them so their way out of that we don't always have people you know that is yours but you don't torture p.d.s. yes but not so difficult to understand it is not a matter of torture it's a matter of one. serving a democratic system for now that they're out of control you're saying you can't control i mean i don't say that they are out of control but i mean this is not the mainstream of the reason police what you have depicted here is a wrong picture the mainstream is trying to respect the rule of law to respect the
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democratic system but maybe in these there are some cases and never pretended that this is over it's going to take time but there is a political will strong will to work towards having a full fledged democracy where the respect of human rights and the rule of law will be the rule of the government mr generally what makes your promise so difficult to believe is that you are pressing ahead with a new law that would actually extend the impunity of your security services this is the repression of attacks against armed forces bill this bill that is in committee stage at the moment. human rights groups say if your promises to the human rights committee were genuine you describe this extensive appeal if you know does the security services to get away from it is not your trial ations this bill is not yet adopted it is under discussion it has been controversial that means that the
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government and those who present that be listening to the people and them sure they will be reform and get according to the will of the people. you're sure about that when i said it so while i was assured you that there are two very controversial aspects to this law and your interior minister said the other way this law was going to go through it wouldn't be withdrawn they're not going to withdraw it criminalizing so-called denigration of police and other security services and. the law about secrets the proposal that anyone who discloses or publishes national security related secrets can spend ten years in jail and well well the idea is that it's now and the discussion and if there are any reforms amendment to that law there will be taken care off and they will be. met accordingly there's a huge protest that's caused huge protests from civil society in the tunisian their
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oppression from the police do you think that you understand now today too easy it's a free country so there are pressure from the police the those police forces who would like to get more like to get away with any violation of they want to practice that's the truth isn't it yeah this law if it goes through as it is written of them are not allowed to will not get as it is as i said it's and the discussion and i'm sure all these observations will be taken care of when the law would be out of the bureau already under attack if it is and that discussion by the parliament and there are the parliament then political parties so it's not the government which is around it this is your parliament you're already under attack for the law that you have passed which is the so-called administrative reconciliation law let's be clear it grant amnesty to civil servants who facilitated corruption under the belly regime without putting them through any legal process what so i let me explain to you this is getting away with everything now isn't it none of this is not getting
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we've passed this here this is already gone through let me explain to you this low because you are getting a wrong ever measurable. this is a low regarding those just civil servant who are working under the benign you who got the instruction the political instruction to you know so that the israelis are of responsibility because they were ordered to do something bad what are you saying that they had no personal responsibility knowing the difference no right and wrong not whether they were instrumental nazi what happens now and the administration which is a quite an important tool for granting you know the success of the transition in the administration today nobody is able and ready to sign anything. he wants to get you know protection the law directly contradicts what the prime minister said when he came to power in twenty sixteen he said our slogan today is no immunity for
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corruption to anyone but no to hiding behind political cover which is what they're doing corruption crimes will not pass and then you police lobbying which allows that you say to these people they didn't get money in their pocket they didn't come after anybody they just you know they were in the lower iraqi they just implemented decision so this law has been utterly rejected by the international center for transitional justice as well as your own national council of the bar association so popular is it that is sort of the ocular virtual view although that is a debate going on in tunisia late the laws being passed here but the no i mean we thought that this is a way to help the administration and ending the daily business of the government so there's a way to help people escape their responsibility no that does not serve their part in the dictatorship if they have committed any crime this law does not protect them
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them from being prosecuted for any crime or corruption because this is just related to the civil civil part of the job you have to read the law it has nothing to do i mean if you have been bar association with the law and they came up with a completely different career because of this abuse or so who is looking after justice them or you know that they are there but and the justice is not us who are looking after we are the executive branch and we are not the world to be justice you keep passing these laws which are so unpopular you want the the west and the i.m.f. to continue funding these anti democratic processes it's not wanting them a critical process because it is not going to this is according to your lawyers a.s.l.'s according to the international organization of some of our lawyers not all of them some of their big contest the road they are in the right to count this it but that doesn't mean that the other night we had a democracy. people are waiting for milestones they're waiting for the much delayed
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constitutional court yes which was probably they're waiting for municipal elections i have delayed and delayed we see a prime minister who promises that this will be the last difficult year for the people of tunis he has he's in no position to make a promise like why not well you know now that well let me first regarding the cause of the constitutional court it will be there before the end of two thousand and eighteen that there was a. prime minister pledges a promise these and it is and now there is a proposal in front of the parliament and the way you relate to me in that story is late yes but this is. this is before the end of the one date of the government of this government deal at the municipal election would be taking place all the six of me and just the prime minister said that that date will be respected and the election will will take will take place that's a promise is a it is not probably it's a commitment all right let's just always been good to have you on the program thank
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you thanks very much for talking with us thank you i think cut. cut.
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so there i sat down on the first. go october of. zero. nine yes aaron and warner. and i look. at them. or in the gym i better. go where. almost that galloway i've been with and. what i meant. was.
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this is deja news coming to you live from berlin and the german chancellor describes the killings of civilians in syria as a massacre in an address to parliament on the american accuses the syrian government of killing its own people and calls for an end to the bloodshed in the eastern enclave close to damascus. and it's decision day for does it cause and still important sector rule on whether to allow back to the major cities
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a move that could have huge implications for the country's powerful got industry.


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