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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Ibrahim Ghandour  Deutsche Welle  February 28, 2018 6:30pm-7:00pm CET

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yes. the most traditional. any time. with a web special. take a tour of germany state by state on d. w. dot com. the government of sudan is often accused of being one of the world's greatest violators of human rights and just as often it denies the charges the man who conveys many of those denials is the country's foreign minister ibrahim gun dog who is my guest here in munich does he care if anyone believes him. and will welcome to comfort zone thank you very much for having me here you told
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the interviewer last year we have abided by all our human rights a big ations this was clearly provably untrue wasn't it. it could not be true but sometimes you depart from normal for reasons that has to be explained living in a world. of turmoil around us neighboring countries or different problems you call it a departure when you called it repeated violations of civil and political rights incidents of harrison and arrest torture and prolonged detention for civil society actors that's more than a departure isn't it cannot be a long detention. that is not all sure but event of millions sometimes to come in order to ensure social security. this comes from the un's
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human rights council's independent expert on sudan so one of you is not telling the truth you are so sure which one is which obviously are telling the truth but i think accusing the other side of not telling the terrorists but not about you are by implication but sometimes envoys exaggerated things for reduced that i'm not going to talk about and why would this one exaggerate thing he's from any such sorry state or not just i mean you know not i met through with him many times here reflects the stories sometimes of political opposition not the certainly the there are less but political opposition in our part of the world would like to undermine governments and this is an ordinary behavior not mistake on the over the years you've flown around the world smoothly and fluently denying all the accusations of human rights abuses that are directed at your government you criticize them as either liars or they're fabricating or they're exaggerating or whatever but
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seriously who do you think people are going to believe you with a president who's a fugitive from international justice or respected human rights groups including the u.n. and including groups from africa itself in fact if you compared groups with groups you would find that the majority not with what you have said. the e.u. summit you not even talk about numbers we do a quality for years on about the most respected want talking about a new summit you can never have only known and more respected than state leaders and ministers of foreign affairs of course indios we respect them but sometimes they depart from normality and they need to prove the doing their job properly and you've encountered plenty of condemnation from african countries just over a year ago in december twenty sixth in the african commission on human and people's rights i'm sure you're familiar with it they expressed serious concern about what
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they called the deteriorating human rights situation in the republic of sudan in particular constant harassment of human rights defenders by the sudanese national intelligence and security services arbitrary arrest and detention in secret places by the end i assess and the inhumane treatment meted out to human rights defenders so they don't believe your blanket denials that this is the african commission we don't have secret detention places we have got well known presence of detention but i can tell you that the number of those detainees is very limited because of some of those that it evaluates that are taken by the government and in a bit of venti of behavior the government and it listed some political leaders and many of them were they were released i'm not saying that the rest is correct but i'm saying that sometimes in our part of the world what is happening around us you
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may take some measures even if you don't support those measures if they happen in a different environment these measures beyond anything that human rights groups particularly in africa prepared to tolerate the special rapporteurs for the commission noted the constant arrests. and detention of human rights defenders said they're a tactic used by the sudanese the authorities by you to obstruct the work of human rights defenders one misses you ng will do just to stop words such as part of state care to sort them last time there were twenty one and it listed to vist and political leaders this is the african commission on human and peoples' rights who says us especially for that i can't tell you those things are nothing either i suppose the stories are not all correct some of them exaggerated the numbers of the behaviors and i can tell you is one of the best examples of your
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modernized in the region i'm not saying everything is perfect not no not is not a lot of another quoting to the commission the commission is a respected body it's a consist of eleven members who are elected by the african union assembly it secretariat is in the gambian capital band you and it's commissioner is from ethiopia a creator and african commission i can tell you that it's judging you pretty harsh when he says that and we respect whatever that comes from our brothers or sisters don't seem to you know then you tell you the littlest report of nepa by excellence of president bashir to the heads of states it has been unanimously received and sudanese transition to good governance and the notion of the good results where unanimously commended by the african leaders and wondering nurse is another example i'm wondering mr what is the calculation behind all your denials you think most
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people around the world are just ignorant and you know i'm not saying that and i'm not denying saying that yes there are some departures from normal behaviors but sometimes you need them in order to prevent catastrophic actions you think if you go on repeating the. things time and time again the few people somewhere down the line will start to believe them or you wish to degrade the truth to such an extent that people don't know that they know not only will the truth but also put in another of the winter many were killed in sudanese they want to stretchers munt how many were injured none i'm not talking about who were innocent were killed very few but you know i'm not talking about your children injured torture and the rest are usually killed. connected to killing and harassment and so there is one of the countries in which the spirit used has always been very clear lentulus talk about harassment because in twenty fifteen the african union
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itself presumably you don't think they're all liars they looked into your last elections and they weren't at all impressed by your standards they reported violations of political and civil rights to such an extent minister that some parties or groups they said found it difficult to carry out legitimate activities relating to the election the level of freedom enjoyed bipartisan candidates they said was generally unsatisfactorily that was a pretty poor of the reporters certainly who are ready that is what it is serve little bo president obasanjo he said the elections were on he said the level of a series of them enjoyed by buddies in candidate was generally satisfactory but his new take it you're taking that but he said the elections that are there will as well as an accolade why do you bridge those elections do you know i can tell you i was in charge of those elections and they challenge everybody to say that they live shows where it leads is what the african union monitors said they spoke of
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a restrictive political environment and the media landscape characterized by censorship and harassment of independent media houses and if you call that a fair election it was a fairly election seventy ports it was a clear one election with some limited turnout to characterize size. censorship and harris meant of independent media despite guarantees of freedom of expression in the constitution african union monitors received reports of arrests and detention of independent journalists who criticize the government for questions as handling. little tell you that throughout the elections none of the given the list was arrested and i'm sure of that was in charge of the same elections and again we have the we believe minister told you believe you you have to have plenty of reason to sell this story no no don't have these ways independent independent african union monitors but the african union itself the mission headed by a president of
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a sample said that they live pictures we're free fair and credible and they can get to size only the turnout which well they criticized a lot more the level of freedom enjoyed bipartisan ganders it was generally unsatisfaction coming back to you haven't you read the whole report that was not true either that if you didn't you didn't read the you know that it wasn't for that report but you had a very selective i'm picking out the points where they criticize easier to see. does something example of doesn't devalue their importance i can't sit here and read you out the whole reportable is the whole of it you're reading what you see that it supports your points of view and there's plenty to support that point if you left it to support my point of view as well and the action against the press was all in line with your president's longstanding determination to bend the press in sudan to these will do you know how many newspapers do we have i know how many a
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lot. a lot in a country or is a lot of newspapers which are not government owned they are free compared to the holy that means there is a free counter some of the free minister in december twenty fourth the new president on. bashir spoke at a party meeting and criticised what he called the government's inability to control the media and then he warned he would take decisive measures he's been doing that ever since hasn't he so it's clear you never had any intention of how he was very proud and a member of the worse when a president in the third world country says that we failed to control the media this means that there is no harassment that is not really that us again and the media really this what it does really if you know if you're talking about harassment he was taking decisive measures he has but i sense a lead according to all the reports taken decisive measures against your german constant heris only or nothing of that has happened. so everybody's line everybody
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makes up these stories about the weight of evidence mina's that is simply too hard for you to sit there and brush away these allegations or as if it's all nonsense and all that's not nonsense not saying that it is or nonsense you know since you are saying that they are some of them up there but you know if you wait again it's what is going on around us you will find that we are taking we're just to keep by the integrity of our country in a country are surrounded by isis but but what are the numbers to do with the way you treat the press no we are not to treating the press we are thirteen people who help the un's independent expert on sudan has requested that you amend the press and publication act give more protection to journalists why haven't you done this many minutes is still going on in the village and that had been said how long do we wait years ago we'll tell you last year the amendment was sent to the parliament
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where the journalists union or projected that they were not part of it it has been again taken back to a committee for by the government the generalist and the civil society so how do i ask you again how long is this going to take you to do and i think in the second in the next meeting of the national assembly the press. will be one of the fairness to be seen and visit then is anybody going to take any notice of it once it's done i ask you this because your interim national constitution bill of rights specifically up holds the right to freedom of expression and media and some of it is being trashed by your difficult to extract what are you going to have a quarter because the court has to show is unacceptable and this is why and this happened and we are even sitting olmos after the separation of the cells to amend them so they come from core areas where that have been abuses against. press we
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have been video by your government sometimes it happens i can tell you i'm not denying that but it is not something of that you can see there's a patent to this during demonstrations but during demonstrations last month for instance the committee for the protection of journalists says seven reporters had been arrested and they were released in what we have yes and it accused you of intimidation confiscating newspapers you talk about the number of free newspapers that you confiscated newspapers and you attempted to censor new grooming mcginest and many are over here is that and once it happens some would be compensated the fear is that like every dictatorship you're scared stiff of the media and shifted that she were not on autocrats look to the government was elected president and elected parliament you are scared stiff that if you have a free press and critical press it's going to undermine your hold on power that i
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want to lose what this is all or loss is only a gross is much more political pro-government numeric specked and you need today's newspapers should earn your love organize let's talk about corruption in your country last much transparency international which as you know is respected around the world said corruption is present in all sectors and across all branches and levels of your government in other words you serve a fairly corrupt administrator i can tell you this is a laughing matter though it is not unless i'm not exaggerating her masses corruption generalization is unfair ok let's have the details then they said public servants are known to demand bribes for services that individuals or come or companies are legally entitled to can tell you this is a general is unfair doesn't happen it doesn't know it happens sometimes of the government is fighting it out somewhere else of have been straight but can not be a generalization this is just unfair government officials hold direct and indirect
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stakes in many enterprises you know this to be true and the head of state in government is believed to have embezzled up to nine million dollars from oil reserves. i'm not aware of anything like that i can assure you this is a promise to me give you a lift in two thousand and eleven the international crisis group by then defy the at least a hundred and sixty four companies a range of sectors that were owned or controlled by the sudanese military police and officials from your intelligence service privatization what are they doing private things are doing or i become a citizen on the way fifty percent of those companies has been privatized and then now the privatization is going on until the last company where they doing with all these companies will resist their pay off and dragging down on your opponent no at the time many government authorities do have companies but from ninety two the decision of the company to privatized all government companies that are started all
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tourist. hotels have been privatized companies because the government companies are corrupt on not because they're corrupt but we are now following a free market economy and then we privatized it we are privatizing all or can say they're not corrupt two weeks ago your own auditor general accused fifteen government owned companies of manipulating their twenty sixteen accounts manipulating revenues surpluses profits and investment votes these are these are you got so many says you mentioned the auditor general we have got an auditor general who is only accountable to the parliament he that they clearly post to the parliament with the old going through even the president on air here needs him to the port of call option in government enterprises everywhere tell us a billion corruption and that's the transparency international was quite correct in their assessment that can show you the transparency we are looking after when an
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auditor general of the it is reported delicately to parliament and that is always reflected in newspapers throughout with some being tried being. but isn't this the kind of what's going to happen to these companies nothing little they manipulates their revenue surpluses profit they they fix their books and you will do nothing about it you can never do that because stores are subject to the auditor general and he had just discovered fifty of them visiting a government that was really most of their has been tried some of them has been put in but it isn't know which ones have been charged many which give me an example going to be one of those who don't get one so they are called on company the president when were they when were they tried their been put in prison not for it or many years now we're talking about the ones who manipulated their twenty sixteen accounts there's no doubt they're under investigation their first edition of your show i'm sure you're sure about that i'm very sure of the us has not lifted
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sanctions against you but they remain deeply critical also of your human rights record on january the twentieth along with the new they condemn the again the harassment arbitrary detention and attacks on journalists in sudan. you don't convince anybody i met with deputy states you don't convince a circle you remain on their list of state sponsors of terrorism now on their way discussing that in order to delist sudan for of that unfair listing you say it's unfair it's unfair because they know one of the five tracks of which we are cooperating number one is a counter terrorism sudan is one of the most countries other culture terrorism in the world was the us was europe was everybody because we believe that terrorist
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will affect us as well you think if you help the americans on counterterrorism the forget about your human rights are not helping the americans who have helping ourselves and helping humanity we're not helping. any particular body we believe that delisting us is the fair treatment that we should have even of to lifting the sanctions the us highlighted a whole range of continuing concerns related to impunity for past atrocities arbitrary detention torture sexual gender based violence this is an annual report that does not believe is it it in twenty seventy and this is a twenty sixty report that i'm aware of it has been a matter of sort of discussion between me and the deputy. secretary until only two days ago they have no illusions about who he was one of the obama administration specialists on sudan zach burton put it in october he said your government is
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dreadful government. the dreadful government well i don't know how you can describe other governments not of that in your but of his. anybody can describe governments the way he likes but that doesn't make this description or entity do you have any intention of improving your appalling human rights when we continue it's not toppling we continue to. prove it as far as we are very much concerned about a really interesting fifteen the hour european commission which you very much concerned about or who want to recall more than anybody else because we believe it is our duty to our van for our cities is the best possible treatment on freedom some good governance and that's why the african commission in may twenty fifteen drew attention to your government's refusal to pay any attention to the issues that the commission raised with it it cited the lack of response by your government to the commission's various recommendations and letters of appeal so you are not taking any notice of them either oh you are not ordered to come and dishes are
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supposed to be revisited live to the point we only take what we feel absolutely correct. in the interest of our people so the african commission doesn't know what they're talking about home and sometimes the middle of sometimes also ok let's talk about your president's indictment by the international criminal court indicted first in two thousand and nine and then again in two thousand and ten with three counts of genocide like everyone else he denies all the charges if he's innocent why is he too scared to go before the court and clear his name no how can we send our president to a court that we are not party to it is not an international court it's how you look we are court we are not party to that or who is that who is the chief prosecutor the chief prosecutor executer being an african does not befit an african court go back to the records of the african union from your holy spirit to keep her lead to
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addis ababa to whatever subject they are you saying that this court is political it has been and that's how similarly it really does not follow is a let's look at the facts mills about leadership we have some drastic and so we have some fact i just miss three of the african situations that are under investigation by the i.c.c. where self-worth. by african states two referred by the security council in which african states voted the d r c benigne and tanzania voted to refer the dollar for a situation to the i.c.c. south africa gap on a nigeria voted in favor of libya being referred to the i.c.c. i could go on but africa but the syrians central to said the decision to take the subway dot the i.c.c. so this is nonsense but the same countries avoid it until the twenty ninth of january that is what most are go to that the indictment against president bashir
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was wrong and that case should be brought back from the court to the security to the african union in the same country is what did the gear unanimously without any exception that the court is targeting african leaders or leave tell me i was human and if you know then you have more suited to be a leader has been indicted tell me about your decision in twenty fourteen you african leaders to have your own human rights court and vote your leaders immunity from prosecution you did this unanimously in one more attempt to escape any kind of accountability looks you resist you in sudan resist at all costs no but we believe that africans are grown up we must keep. causes of problems was in africa. keeping them in africa by voting yourself immunity from prosecution it's a job that's a joke isn't it all is said just there is still
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a search of the state prisons are having by international immunities this is well known here and this is why we see the results of it till you are seeing that is all from your perspective unfortunately and you smear the court you accuse them of taking money judges of taking money without your being very old your president made the accusation on the land and t.v. in twenty sixteen he said all the seventeen million dollars have been transferred and credited to officials of the court is not only our presidents it's sort of poor that in the british newspaper it has been which a british newspaper got a member of the near has been propagated it to you in a bit of a stick and lots of things are propagated which are nonsense and you provided no one scott shred of information comes out of this up in terms of bad obvious stuff you've been saying that goes for the same. it's a good idea to thank you very much. with
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the.
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is d.w. news coming to you live from berlin to the german government computer networks come under attack by hackers cyber criminals from russia are alleged to have stolen data from both the defense and foreign ministries the hackers are said to belong to the same group that attacked the democratic national committee ahead of the twenty sixteen u.s. election. also coming up.

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