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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Ibrahim Ghandour  Deutsche Welle  February 28, 2018 10:30pm-11:01pm CET

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ask you for your of our series. in sixty minutes w. . as long as. managers contain nothing. you know the banks. and to watch the language of the bank running. speaking the truth global news that matters w. for minds. the government of sudan is often accused of being one of the world's greatest violators of human rights and just as often it denies the charges the man who conveys many of those denials is the country's foreign minister ibrahim gun dog who is my guest here in munich does he care if anyone believes him.
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will welcome to comfort zone thank you very much. for having me here you told the interviewer last year we have abided by all human rights gay sions this was clearly provably untrue wasn't it. it cannot be untrue but sometimes you depart from normal for reasons that has to be explained living in a world of of turmoil around us neighboring countries with different problems you call it a departure the you when you called it repeated violations of civil and political rights incidents of heris meant arrest torture and prolonged detention for civil society actors that's more than a departure isn't it cannot be a long detention can tell you it is not all shot these are prevented measures
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sometimes taken in order to ensure social security. comes from the un's human rights council's independent expert on sudan so one of you is not telling the truth you decide which one is which obviously we have telling the truth but only to accusing the other side of not telling the terrorists but not about you are by implication but sometimes envoys exaggerated things for reasons that i'm not going to talk about and why would this one exaggerate and he's from any such sorry state no not just on many i know i met through with him many times he reflects the stories sometimes of political opposition not the certainly that there are less but political opposition in our part of the world would like to undermine governments and this is an ordinary behavior not mistake on the over the years you've flown around the world smoothly and fluently denying all the accusations of human rights
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abuses that are directed at your government you criticize them as either liars or they're fabricating or they're exaggerating or whatever but seriously who do you think people are going to believe you with a president who is a fugitive from international justice or respected human rights groups including the u.n. and including groups from africa itself in fact if you compared groups with groups you would find that the majority are not with what you have said. in the e.u. summit you're not me i'm not talking about numbers we're doing quality here or you know some of the most respected want talking about you summit and you can never have only known more respected than state leaders and ministers of foreign affairs of course indios we respect them but sometimes they depart from normality and they need to prove the doing their job properly you've encountered plenty of condemnation from african countries just over
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a year ago in december twenty sixth in the african commission on human and people's rights i'm sure you're familiar with it they expressed serious concern about what they called the deteriorating human rights situation in through the republic of sudan in particular constant harassment of human rights defenders by the sudanese national intelligence and security services arbitrary arrest and detention in secret places by the end i assess and the in a humane treatment meted out to human rights defenders so they don't believe your blanket denials that this is the african commission we don't have secret detention places we have got a well known presence of detention but i can tell you that the number of those detainees is very limited because of some of those state evaders that are taken by the government and in a bit of venti of behavior the government arrested some political leaders and many
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of them were they were released i'm not saying that the rest is correct but i have saying that sometimes in our part of the world and what is happening around us you may take some measures even if you don't support those measures if they happen in a different environment these measures beyond anything that human rights groups particularly in africa prepared to tolerate the special rapporteurs for the commission noted the constant arrests. and detention of human rights defenders said there a tactic used by the sudanese the authorities by you to obstruct the work of human rights defenders one message says you ng will just have struck website as part of care to sudan last time there were twenty one or listed to vist and political leaders this is the african commission on human and people's rights he says us the special operator for that i can't tell you those they know nothing either i suppose the stories are not all correct and some of them. exaggerated the numbers
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and the behaviors and i can tell you is one of the best examples of your modernized in the region i'm not saying everything is perfect not no not a not a lot of another cording to the commission the commission is a respected body it's consist of eleven members who are elected by the african union assembly it's secretariat is in the gambian capital banjo and it's commissioner is from ethiopia a creator and african commission i can tell you that it's judging you pretty harshly and he said and we respect whatever that comes from our brothers or sisters don't seem to you know susan tell you the latest report of me by his excellence of president bashir to the heads of states it has been unanimously received and sudanese transition to good governance and the notion of the good results with unanimously commended by the african leaders and wonderingly as is another example
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i'm wondering mr what is the calculation behind all your denials you think most people around the world are just ignorant and you know what i'm not saying that and i'm not denying saying that yes there are some departures from normal behaviors but sometimes you need them in order to prevent catastrophic actions you think if you go on repeating the. things time and time again the few people somewhere down the line will start to believe them or you wish to degrade the truth to such an extent that people don't know that they're not only good for the troops but also putting another of your winter many were killed in sudanese want to streeter's month how many were injured i'm not talking about who were some were killed very few but you know i'm not talking about who were killed and injured torture and the rest. come connected to killing and harassment.
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is one of the countries in which the spirit is has always been very clear lentulus talk about harassment because in twenty fifteen the african union itself presumably you don't think they're all liars they looked into your last elections and they weren't at all impressed by your standards they reported violations of political and civil rights to such an extent minister that some parties or groups they said found it difficult to carry out legitimate activities relating to the election the level of freedom enjoyed bipartisan candidates they said was generally and satisfactory that was a pretty of the reporters certainly who are ready that is what it is serve little of both president obasanjo he said the elections were credible he said the level of a separate them enjoyed by purdy's encounters it was generally satisfactory but his new take it you're taking that but it said the elections that credible as well as an accolade why did you rig those elections then i know i can tell you i was in
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charge of those elections are they telling everybody to say that they live shows where it leads is what the african union monitors said they spoke of a restrictive political environment and the media landscape characterized by censorship and harassment of independent media houses and you call that a fair election it was a fairly election the seventy ports it was a clear the want to lecture was some limited to characterize size. censorship and harris meant of independent media despite guarantees of freedom of expression in the constitution african union monitors received reports of arrests and detention of independent journalists who criticize the government or questions as hand i can tell you that throughout the elections none of the journalist was arrested and i'm sure of that was in charge of the same elections and again we have to we believe minister told you believe you you have to have plenty of reason to sell this story
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no no i don't have these ways of dependent independent african union monitors but the african union itself the mission headed by the president over some go said that they live shows where free fair and credible they can get to sized only the terminal which well they criticized a lot more the level of freedom enjoyed bipartisan ganders it was generally unsatisfaction coming back to you haven't you read the whole report that was not true either that if you didn't you didn't read that it was in there before that report but you are very selective and picking out the points where they criticize easier to see it doesn't mean it does something valuable it doesn't devalue their importance any i can't sit here and read you out the whole report the poison of it you're reading what you see that it supports your points of view yeah and there's plenty to support that point if you look at the support of my point of view as well and the action against the press was all in line with the president's longstanding
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determination to bend the press in sudan to these will do you know how many newspapers do we have i know how many a lot but in a city which is a lot of newspapers with shot of not government owned free compared to the holy jim that means there is a freak out of some of the three ministers in december twenty four team new president on. bashir spoke at a party meeting and criticized what he called the government's inability to control the media and then he warned he would take decisive measures he's been doing that ever since hasn't he so it's clear you never had any intention of how he was very proud and remember the worse when a president in the silver country says that we fail to control of the media this means that there is no harassment that is not really that us again the media really this what it does really if you know if you're talking about harassment he was
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taking decisive measures he has but i said to lead according to all the reports taken decisive measures against your german constant harrisville i could tell you nothing of that has happened. so everybody's line everybody makes up these stories about the weight of evidence mina's that is simply too hard for you to sit there and brushes ladies allegations or as if it's all nonsense and all that's not nonsense not saying that it is or nonsense you know since you are saying they are some of them are there but you know if you wait again it's what is going on around us you will find that we are taking way just to keep our integrity of our country in a country to surrounded by isis bob what are you still not going to do with the way we treat the press no we are not to be treating the press we are three thousand people who may help the un's independent expert on sudan has requested that you amend the press and publication act give more protection to journalists why haven't
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you done this the mint's is still going on and the vision that had been said how long do we wait years until we'll tell you last year the amendment was sent to the parliament when they did notice union or projected that they were not part of it it has been again taken back to a committee for by the government again the list and the civil society so how i ask you again how long is this going to take you to do and i think in the second in the next meeting of the national assembly the press. will be one of the fairness to be seen and visit and is anybody going to take any notice of it once it's done i ask you this because your interim national constitution bill of rights specifically upholds the right to freedom of expression and media and some of it is being trashed by your difficulties your trash what are you going to ever called that because the cost is unacceptable and this is why and
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this happened we are even sitting olmos after the separation of the silos to amend them so they cover for that have been abuses against. press we have been video by your government sometimes it happens i can tell you i'm not denying that but it is not something of that you can patent to this during demonstrations but during demonstrations last month for instance the committee for the protection of journalists says seven reporters had been arrested and they were released in what we have is yes and it accused you of intimidation confiscating newspapers you talk about the number of free newspapers that you confiscated newspapers and you attempted to censor new yorkers grooming mcginest and many are over here is that and once it happens some would be in complicity the fear is that like every dictatorship you're scared stiff of the million underachieved it or she were not on autocrats look to the government with her they lifted president on the left part of
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them and you are scared stiff that if you have a free press and critical press it's going to undermine your hold on power balance of alternatives what this is on the glass is only a gross is much more political pro-government than your marriage expect and you need to do is newish purpose of the you would have a nice let's talk about corruption in your country last much transparency international which as you know is respected around the world so corruption is present in all sectors and across all branches and levels of your government in other words you serve currently corrupted ministry i can tell you this is a laughing matter though it is not the lesson of imagine that you have masses corruption general malaise ish and fear ok let's have the details then they said public servants are known to demand bribes for services that individuals that come or companies are legally entitled to can tell you this is a general is unfair doesn't happen it doesn't know it happens sometimes of the
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government is fighting it out somewhere guilts of have been straight but could not be a generalization this is just unfair government officials hold direct and indirect stakes in many enterprises you know this to be true and the head of state in government is believed to have embezzled up to nine billion dollars actually from oil reserves here. i'm not aware of anything like that i can assure you this is a promise to me give you a lift in two thousand and eleven the international crisis group identified at least a hundred and sixty four companies a range of sectors that were owned or controlled by the sudanese military police and officials from the intelligence service privatization what are they doing private things are doing ok as a nation on the way fifty percent of those companies has been privatized and now the privatization is going on until the last company were they doing with all these companies it was a step pale for cracking down on your opponent no at the time amended government
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authorities do have companies but from ninety two the decision of the company to privatized all government companies that is started all tourist. hotels have been privatized companies because the government companies are corrupt on not because they're corrupt but we are now following a free market economy and then we privatized it we are privatizing all or can say they're not corrupt two weeks ago your own auditor general accused fifteen government owned companies of manipulating their twenty sixteen accounts manipulating revenue surpluses profits and investment votes are these are these are you have said he says you mentioned the auditor general we have got an auditor general who is only a countable to the parliament he that they clearly post the part of event without going through even the president on air here leads to the port of call option in
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government enterprises everywhere tell us a billion corruption and that's the transparency international was quite correct in their assessment that can show you the transparency we are looking after when an auditor general of the it is reported delicately to parliament and that is always reflected in newspapers throughout with some being tried some being. isn't it mr geiger what's going to happen to these companies nothing will they manipulate their revenue surpluses profit they've they fix their books and you will do nothing about it you could never do that because door sort of subject to the auditor general and he's just discovered fifty of them visiting government i would only do most of that has been tried some of them has been prison but isn't know which ones have been charged many which give me an example going to be one of those who don't get one so they are caught on company well in the prison when were they when were they try their been put in prison not for it or nine years now we're talking about the ones
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who manipulated their twenty sixteen accounts there's no doubt they're in that investigation their investigation text phone your show i'm sure you're sure about that i'm very sure of the. us has not lifted sanctions against you but they remain deeply critical also of your human rights record on january the twentieth along with the new they condemn the again the harris meant to treat attention and attacks on journalists in sudan. you don't convince anybody i met who is a deputy state secular you don't convince a circle you remain on the list of state sponsors of terrorism and we are now on their way of discussing of that in order to the list for of that unfair listing you say it's unfair it's unfair because they know and one of the five tracks of which we are cooperating number one is
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a counter terrorist sudan is one of the most countries other culture terrorism in the world was the us was europe was everybody because we believe that terrorists will affect us as well you think if you help the americans on counterterrorism that going to forget about your human really are an awful thing that i mean because you have helping ourselves and helping humanity we're not helping any particular body we believe that delisting us is the fear treatment that we should have even of to lifting the sanctions the us highlighted a whole range of continuing concerns related to impunity for past atrocities arbitrary detention torture sexual gender based violence this is an annual report that has not been revisited in twenty seventeen this is a twenty sixty report that i'm aware of it and it has been a matter of sort of discussion with me that they're pretty state secretary until early two days ago they have no illusions about who he was one of the obama
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administration specialists on sudan zack burton put it in october and he said your government is dreadful government. the dreadful government well i don't know how we can describe other governments not of the region but of his that are sort of mean anybody could describe governments the way he likes but that doesn't make this description or anything do you have any intention of improving your appalling human rights when we continue it's not toppling we continue to. prove it as far as we are very much concerned about the really interesting fifteen the african commission which is very much concerned about who want to recall more than anybody else because we believe it is our duty to our vision for our cities is the best possible treatment on freedom some good governance and that's why the african commission in may twenty fifteen drew attention to your government's refusal to pay any attention to the issues that the commission raised with it it cited the lack of response by
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your government to the commission's various recommendations and letters of appeal so you're not taking any notice of them either oh you are not ordered to come and dishes are supposed to be to visited other acted upon we only take what we feel absolutely correct. in the interest of our people so the african commission doesn't know what they're talking about sometimes the middle of sometimes also ok let's talk about your president's indictment by the international criminal court indicted first in two thousand and nine and then again in two thousand and ten with three counts of genocide like everyone else he denies all the charges if he's innocent why is he too scared to go before the court and clear his name no how can we send our president to a court that we are not party to it is not an international court it's how you look we are court we are not party to that or who is that who is the chief prosecutor
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the chief prosecutor executer being an african does not befit an african court go back to that of course of the african union from your holy spirit to keep her lead to addis ababa to whatever subject there is saying that this court is political it has been and that suzie similarly does not show is a let's look at the facts mills about leadership we have some classical so we have some fact i was just me as three of the african situations that are under investigation by the i.c.c. where self-worth. by african states two referred by the security council in which african states voted the d r c benigno and tanzania voted to refer the dollar for a situation to the i.c.c. south africa gabble on a nigeria voted in favor of libya being referred to the i.c.c. i could go on but africa but this is it in central and the sooner the decision is taken aside not the i.c.c.
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so this is nonsense but the same countries avoid it until the twenty ninth of january that is one month ago to that the indictment against president bashir was wrong and that case should be brought back from the court to the security to the african union the same countries what did they get unanimously without any exception that the court is targeting african leaders or only tell me i was human and if you know then you have more suited to be a leader has been indicted tell me about your decision in twenty fourteen you african leaders to have your own human rights court and vote your leaders immunity from prosecution you did this unanimously in one more attempt to escape any kind of accountability gloats you resist you in sudan resist at all costs not all but we believe that for the currents of grown up we must keep. causes of problems was in
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africa. keeping them in africa by voting yourself immunity from prosecution it's a job that's a joke because you know it's i said just there is still a search of the stand prisoners are having by international law immunities this is were not here and this is why we see the results of it till you are seeing the results from your perspective unfortunately and you smear the court you accuse them of taking money judges of taking money we are you're going very well your president made the accusation on the landon t.v. in twenty sixteen he said. almost seventeen million dollars have been transferred and credited to officials of the court is not only our president it's sort of poor that kid in the british newspaper has been with the british newspaper i got in there but then there has been propagated you know what i was to get lots of things out propagated which are nonsense and you provided not one shred of information comes out of this op it tells you about all this stuff you'll be saying that goes for the sake of it to him gundel good to have you in context good to have you to
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thank you very much and. alex ok. alex ok. ok. alex thanks. thanks thanks thanks. for the be. ok. i'm going to cut.
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l. and the folks that go back to. the us at. first but i don't act. man. i'm. just cut. out of the. family. and i'm a proud man. i will fight. for. their my i was. well aware. own local gallon
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of them. what am. i like there's. nothing. really. any eastern gets a temporary truce has failed to bring relief to residents for a second day among the sitting drip says a bottle of air strikes preceded the cease fire russia claim some residents moneys to leave the district the aid workers said none cross the checkpoint. two senior government officials have resigned in the week of the murder of
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journalist young kids he was killed alongside his fiancee on sunday his final story about links between alleged the telly and muffy grip on people close to.

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