tv Quadriga - Israel at 70 A Troubled Anniversary Deutsche Welle April 19, 2018 11:30pm-12:00am CEST
on. the. on a mission to change a pretty smart women smart talks smart strange and legend. left our brain creasing when dangerous time. makes. a lot of very warm welcome indeed to quadriga coming to you from the heart of berlin and the focus is on israel which is this week celebrating the seventieth anniversary of the birth of the jewish state in one thousand nine hundred forty eight ceremonies have been taking place in jerusalem and elsewhere across the country to mark the achievements of the past seven decades that have made today's israel a democracy a military superpower and a technological heavyweight but for the palestinians the emergence of israel was
a catastrophe ever since they've been battling for what they believe is their allow their rights and their future at least thirty palestinians have been killed and many more wounded in the latest clashes on the border with gaza so our question here on quadriga this week is israel at seventy a troubled anniversary and to discuss that question i'm joined here in the studio by a man who's a musician and a journalist who's also head of the german section of the new israel fund which is committed to supporting civil society in israel and palestinian rights over says seventy years of independence fifty years of occupation israel stands at the books crucial crossroads in its history also with us is our crown banker a middle east analyst and political consultant akram argues that with its ever increasing rightwing nature israel at seventy is excel a race in the end of this. i understood the experiment and the warm up concert
ashanti resigned as torture violence only producer and commentator based here in berlin chani say only seventy years old israel is still a young democracy any information. thank you all for being here i'd like to begin with you over seventy years of israel have you been celebrating. well that's a difficult question when i was talking to my parents who live in jerusalem i could still feel the excitement in their voices they remember actually when it was found that they were there nine hundred forty eight. so for them it's still a miracle and these red states on the other hand looking at the years we have from israel these days and the demonstrations in gaza conflict with iran i hope that israel will be able to confront its its state in a way that will that will make sure that we will celebrating ten twenty or seventy years and again you mentioned jerusalem you were born in jerusalem and i i saw that
you were quoted as saying that you believe that jerusalem is a state of mind but i say that just a little bit further and assume that israel is a state of mind described that state of mind for us at this point in time. well it was this quote was made there regarding the decision of the american president to move the american embassy to jerusalem and it was very controversial in israel and outside of israel and my take was that actually it was a good decision because jerusalem as the capital city of israel represents israelis is a place where you have citizens and then you have hundreds of thousands of people who are not citizens and you have a separation between different groups between arabs and he's ready to shoes rallies so in that sense jerusalem is right is a state of mind reminding us that i would say the challenges with which is right is confronted and actually we two here in germany. shai result is also an israeli citizen based here in germany working for the arch of iowa israel at seventy what
does it mean to you. well. you know there's lots of trouble there's a lot of challenges but but i want to break the gloom and doom fast i feel we are we're about to launch here because it's been seventy years for what was an incredible miraculous act of statehood i mean this is and if you put this in the context of nation building seventy years is not a long time and these challenges that israel is facing and some of them are pressing a need to be solved sooner rather than later. they cannot you know where they cannot overshadow everything we need to still keep in mind you know often was talking about his parents remembering how it was when there was no state there if you put this in context we bring ourselves back to nine hundred forty eight to see the to survivors of the holocaust one of the biggest tragedies most atrocious you know parts of human history coming and together and managing to build this state
having made many mistakes as well but would create determines and dream and aspirations and it's something that you know when you think about it it's hard not to be touched one of these achievements what are you most proud of well the culture part of it you know the hebrew and the culture that surrounds it and these are the the thinkers and the philosophers and the and the writers and the poets and also they bring us hope you know this is the things that keep us going seventy years on when we look at what happens in the political sphere on one hand and maybe some of us in many critical for some for that's this one thing with then. israel it's as a society is a strong society has a strong civil society it has very strong independent press these independent voices coming from that culture of of liberal thinking of. critical thinking of their own government as well this is still part of israel as well and we need to keep in mind that that's where the hopefully the you know this is where we're looking at the next seventy years this is where we need to hold onto
and hope for better surely result. is used the word hope of three four five six times they're not statements he's talked about a great feat of state building what's your take on this well i just want to hark back to this as it's a state of mind it's been a nightmare of a state of mind for us for palestinians for the past seventy years and just to touch on your the grandfather of modern hebrew as i leave it was one of the largest proponents of palestinian statehood and palestinian rights to exist israel is a it's a zionist experiment and if you want to talk about the whole the cost and the horrors of that with the promise that most of some of the most violated people in israel have been the survivors of the whole accost many of them of those survivors are very pro palestinian and have been against what the state of israel has done. that when i say we're not it well it's israel but unfortunately israel has
continued to use and continues to use the holy cos as an excuse for its policies whereas all the cost was a crime against jews was a crime against also gays and roman city and many other people but it was a crime by europeans against their own people it had nothing to do with palestine and the injustice that was done to palestinians the fact is that your miracle was created on our catastrophe it was created through an injustice and right now for me to say i want the destruction of israel so i can build a state of palestine would be nothing but another injustice which i don't want to happen but it's your policies it's the policies of the israeli government and this transformation of israeli society into a right wing vicious society which is hasting its own in this. before you
come back on the show melissa i would go some images for the viewers and then i'll come straight back to her because the birth of the state of israel seventy years ago as we've just seen came shortly after the end of the second world war the holocaust the mass murder of european jews this shocking chapter of european history still casts a shadow over israeli society never again will we allow ourselves to be made victims say the israelis and the declaration of the state of israel by david ben-gurion in one nine hundred forty eight gave jews around the world their own homeland but israeli media too found itself at war with five arab nations during the conflict hundreds of thousands of palestinians fled from their homelands in what they called the naacp are all catastrophe. two groups of people fighting for the same homeland yes but i but i think. and i think this is unfortunately that the challenge that israel is a failed to take up on them right i mean in
a good way to try and fix but i don't think that acknowledging the palestinian suffering is contradicting the belief that jews have a place in the land palestine and i think both palestinians and jews well the moderates will moderate ones know and understand these two people will have to find a way to co-exist and the lack of success is a tragedy and there's no doubt if you're looking at who's paying the price of that tragedy. when that you guys there's the there's no doubt who's carrying the burden on his shoulders but if you look at the few i mean it into the future then just like you said no one will benefit from the demise of the state of israel the jewish state it's about finding a way to make this work for both people somehow and i just kind of project i'm sorry just one thing i completely object to a jewish state just as i object to a muslim state or christian state or a good state it cannot there is no such thing as a democracy and a jewish state. you have been looking very thoughtful yeah well. it
is a middle eastern discussion in germany so i find both halfs and i just wanted to struggling with each other. well first of all i think israel was founded not only because of the holocaust there would have been a state of israel or a kind of a as an institution entity in palestine with or without the holocaust this is important i think the lesson is much more to think we have to remember from the holocaust especially now that we are moving from remembering the holocaust as having the holocaust as a part of the human history because the last victims and the last perpetrators are dying. is the university stick lessons it gives us. and i must say you know when you speak of the israelis only seventy years old and we have to let to give you time we have a basic construction full in the in the in the heart of this beautiful house called the state of israel and this is a failed partnership with palestinians. course among the great writers said a few days ago in the israel palestinian commemoration day he said israel will not be home by date in arabic without us to be able without the palestinians having
a home and without us being we to to to cooperate and when you say israel has a great culture it does and israel has a critical social civil society well i can tell you speaking as the as head of an unusual fund here in germany the israeli civil society the critical voices within israel are standing under massive attacks from one side of israeli politics because you know the critic that we sound we say that if this construction is all that we have to at the foundation of our of our joint home will not be corrected if we will not find a way to call for it was the palestinians and i i disagree i don't think that you can compare it to a christian state but if we want to talk to each other then it's not that in seventy years and one hundred years the state of israel be older and wiser and will learn from its mistakes i believe that if we keep if you keep on like this there will be no state of israel as we know it today. no you become german.
group please ladies first you know i just i think there's no doubt i was starting with saying there are challenges there's many problems and i don't think we can we can the minute i mean belittle or diminish any of them and the urgency for for for solution but then at the same time i just i just refuse to fall into this endless hopeless bleak look into the future in thinking this it's not going the know where there's a difference between the political scene that we see now and even though it feels like it's been there forever it's going to stay forever but life and politics it's not like that and there could be a situation in two three four five years things might look better they might not but we need to find people the critical voices the people within the civil society that journalists need to fight to make sure that the changes are made in the right direction but i don't think i mean i think if you look at the core there's a lot to work with there's good people there's good thoughts on both sides and i
think. this particular day one day of the year i want to try and stick to help you really wanted to use the good people of both sides. may i just say that. i agree with you in that. and with over that there has to be the solution the problem is that the zionist narrative does not allow for the palestinians right to exist as a nation i believe that there will be an end to israel as a jewish state which i hope there will be an end to israel as a jewish state and there will be a real democratic state call it israel call it palestine call it whatever you want where one person has equal rights under the law that this is a land for all of the people who live there jews christians atheists muslims buddhists whoever you like that that the state is for citizens and for the people
who live there not for one religion over another that's the only way that israel seems like the helpless optimist is you not me let me just come in for a second visit i have as an outsider this time of celebration jubilation in israel the seventieth anniversary a lot of people talking up outside is a talking about the achievements that its row has met has made you know i mean you're you're you're dismissing the end of the very notion already been able to talk about the flourishing economy people talk about democracy in israel do you dismiss all of this out of hand and do you know what would you say that similar achievements haven't necessarily be made on the palestinian side because the israelis have been. there are not new sides of heater peter there are not two sides there is not israel and there is palestine israel is the master israel controls everything they occupy palestine palestine if anything is a state of mind it is not anywhere on a map to be found it has no controls israel controls everything so let's get that
right so the fact that people have been celebrating of course these are the enablers these are the same enablers who have allowed the israeli economy to flourish with my tax dollars as an american and israel lives in a bubble take away the american tax dollars take away all the subsidies your israel economy will not be so would not be flourishing so much and then another thing gaza i disagree with your thing these are not clashes at the border this was a massacre of nonviolent civilian protestors by israeli snipers there were thirty five to forty people killed murdered and over two thousand people wounded with live ammunition if this had been turned around and palestinians with guns had shot at israeli demonstrators five hundred yards across the fence this would have been all over the press nonstop day in and day out but the western in
a many points may not do the things like this first of all i must say that it be achievers of the state of israel in all fields are not jewish achievements their achievements of the state of israel which means there are also achievements of our biggest thing is brothers and sisters who are citizens of the states and it of israel and the palestinian leader are living under occupation so of course you have . discrimination within israel but i would not i would not be gold to the tremendously important parts of philistine and they are called arab israelis but palestinian with israeli citizenship within israel in these in these special economical miracle. called israel and things like this. what happened in gaza shooting into an armed demonstrators most of them were unarmed demonstrators i agree with you and these are the things i agree with you and i think this is i don't know if you know speaking about one man one voice speaking about the end of the jewish state the end of this any sick project basically design is it project it's you know what the zionism is creating the jewish so for anything within the
middle east it's exceeded that's it's a nowhere in the next phase. but. again if we look at the thing that that brings us together the fact that the twee here conceit and speak and say ok we have common ground we disagree about certain things the same thing we can do in israel if we say we find common ground we find a model of citizenship which takes the jewish part which would take supremacy in part i think this is actually a chance i would say the end of the jewish state but there was a rethinking serenity within israel and palestine over there is the key point which i completely disagree with you on is because we can find common ground and sit here and talk because we are living in germany we are all the same under the law israel if i was in israel you could come as a soldier and bar me from coming to tel aviv but when i get checkpoint outside of my house of rabaul but i am not sure i do your house in tel aviv and put
a check for it in front of your house and prevent you from coming to jerusalem that is the difference the difference is that with when we are in israel or in palestine we don't have the same rights i cannot speak like you and i know a lot of let's just let's just shift the focus for a second let's talk about tully's between israel and germany because we're sitting here in egypt. as we just noted talking about what's going on between these israelis and the palestinians very far away there have been real tensions at times in the last year or so between israel and germany each side has seen of the of a but now the relationship has it seems entered a new phase. on his first official visit to israel new german foreign minister heikal mass wanted to strike a new tone in the recently strained relations between the two countries his efforts were well received reach our. common i'm learning more and more.
from your history. mass wants to build trust and bring new impetus to solving old problems because with us i think that we are in agreement on nearly all of our objectives. there are indeed differences regarding the road to reaching them but the place of germany will always be alongside israel all of these questions. and as i do you say that so i'm still those differing views are not on minor matters for instance germany continues to support a two state solution despite israel's controversial settlement policy the positions of the two countries here are poles apart so how much friction can the german israeli friendship tolerate. so much to talk about so little time show me is the german government right to cling to the two state solution well it's right as much as any other government is right to advocate for any other government to do anything else in the sense that. germany's is in the same line with many most of
other european nations and up until recently the u.s. regards what should be the solution to the to the conflict will this make it closer to end will this be eventually the solution it's actually not up to germany or anyone else it's up to palestinians and israelis and the two state solution i think is is an idea that on one hand many can agree is the only way to save israel but we have a growing voices and growing numbers of people supporting these voices that maybe that's it has also shown sale maybe it's too late now and we just find other solutions like maybe a one state solution. that is democratic state that gives we have even we have within the suckers and within palestinian if the house and i report is it that idea if that is a route that the world could go down is germany on almost broken could facilitate in that equation i think germany could facilitate could be an honest broker just as
the united states could be an honest broker the problem is that they when they say it has to be the two sides who come up with a solution we are not neutral as western countries in this equation we the western countries the united states germany have given close to unconditional support militarily economically and politically to israel while denying this to the palestinians so they're not honest brokers they are not neutral in this equation if they were then i think there could be progress over. it's interesting when high cost and you were for minister of germany and to the office he's just peachy said the reason i went into politics is auschwitz and it was quarters all over and it was it was. given as an example that he's going to have no different israel politic than his and precess or is it my goblet but the government as well said i am in
politics because of my father who was a national socialist all the way until he died so. the same in the same in the same context so it just shows you that germany in the right perspective can go this way and go that way so i don't think there is one german voice. regarding israel i think you know israel calls itself a liberal democracy and it is for its citizen citizens and is rather liberal democracy not for all of inhabitants excuse me mostly jew citizens it was legit citizens but not all of the people living god it is really rule for instance that the palestinians liver living under occupation and this is the key question what can germany do because of course as you and he said to get involved in the affairs of another of of another country is is difficult but if israel calls itself a liberal democracy and i think it should that should be the goal of israel then ok welcome to the club in all that to be a part of this club you have to observe human rights you have to observe equality for all citizens i think it's it's actually it's positive politics that the german
government to not only german german government can pursue and excuse me if it's ok to send submarines if it's ok to support israel in other manner a nother matter is why is it not ok to take part. in the in the regional politics where israel is a part of him to me i do have to say though just quickly i don't think germany can have it be a neutral broker i think as much as we see a slight change in german policy towards israel a bit more of a critical voice is it much more allowed today than they used to be in the past but i don't see how germans. not you know so because of israel i don't see how germans let themselves be the ones pressuring israel because of the burden of the past because of the fear because of the discourse that we're so used to that is dominated that is dominated by that. can i just say very much time left yeah very quickly is that there was no israel before nine hundred forty eight whole accost world war two i don't like world war two being reduced to the whole of costs
horrible as it was the entire war was terrible not nazi germany or the fact is that what happened happened to european jews and not the state of israel the state of israel as far as i know does not speak for every jew in this world no matter what it likes to proclaim it does not so criticizing and putting pressure on the state of israel has nothing to do with with being jewish that's my point i think this is this is highly important if i can and because these touches. a wound here in germany because very often we speak about israel and then we move to the discussion we call the countries in which isn't germany it is not the same topic people who are pro israeli who goes israeli flags and get into arguments on billion streets because of that's one thing people are getting attacked because they have to keep on their head that's a different thing and i think it's it to a point it has to be discussed it's not you know you can't separate both that
easily but it's we have to bear it in mind when i speak about i do some of the same in europe you know a nutshell from each of you where do you want the situation to go next. i want the situation i hope that there is an end of this conflict that can only lead can only be led through by the end of the israeli occupation of palestine and whether that is a one state solution of democracy where everyone one man one vote one woman one vote in a democratic state or two state solution which in my opinion no longer exists because of settlements of the numbers. get such a big board by visiting how do we get there i don't know i think it's going to be much on the apostles. we don't see any good development any changes no changes in the next decade over the partnership civil partnership that's the best illustration for trying so much here goes thanks so much for being with us here today and for green israel seventy eight a troubled anniversary thank you see you next week five years.
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