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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Alexander Stubb  Deutsche Welle  October 25, 2018 2:30pm-3:00pm CEST

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and the continent of africa on the move the stories about to move a vision of change makers taking their destinies into their own hands. d.w. multimedia series from africa. d.w.m. dot com africa. the opinion is on the brink n.t.e.u. populists are making gains across the continent and britain could leave without a breck's it deal this week conflict zone as in proc well i have caught up with alex the fool my finnish prime minister has launched a campaign to become the next president of the european commission can he fix your op.
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ex understood well come to a conflict zone thank you you have launched an unprecedented compared to replays on clothes at the president of the u.p.a. and commission you can paint program talks a lot about values vote if i were to say in one word why i'm running for commission president it is values do you peon bell use and when you leave the european space no i think actually european values are global for me they're universal so they have to do with human rights fundamental rights liberty liberal democracy rule of law equality and tolerance are for me these are inalienable they are part of who we are as human beings are a lot of european if they are global let's talk about the vote. he said the e.u. has links with regimes some of which. we talk about
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turkey he said and we are right too but never we talked about saudi arabia tell me something about saudi arabia saudi arabia is obviously a middle eastern country very oil rich not democratic gave the right for women to drive cars only the past in the past few years and right now is in the middle of a journalist murder case. so what are the sanctions what are the ideas what is the reaction of the e.u. if you would have been the president today well i think the main tool that the european union has basically are sanctions and obviously with russia we use them because they annexed the crimean peninsula and they have been timid aiding ukraine and then in every specific case we look at what legitimacy has uses if it case sell their rabia yeah first thing you would do is to basically go through what has happened and on the basis of the evidence that you have you get the member states
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together to clear this journalist enter the consulate and you never came out so there are no really miracles what happened there and no secrets what happened there that's why again what's about saudi arabia today from your perspective but from my perspective i think we'd have to first get the member states together put a declaration and then decide in common on the basis of unanimity on something almost actions by you know i think personally if if this has been if this has been a organized official murder then action must be taken but we don't need to wait for that saudi arabia is responsible for hundreds of thousands of victims children women in yemen it's a brutal war against the civil population what should be the answer of the european union to words that massacre well depends on which massacre you're talking about and by which country i think it's very important i think it's very important to be
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i think it's very important to be principled when it comes to foreign policy you have to look at the whole situation in the middle east draw conclusions from that and then see what kind of relationship you have with saudi arabia european relations with saudi arabia or of course not this close for instance as the americans want american want to still very very low as well in the human terran catastrophe in yemen. yes so far has not stopped you peons arm shipments we are involved in europe with this in your opinion should those arms shipments be stopped i think you have to be very careful when it comes to arms shipment and i actually work as the chairman of the board of the crisis management initiative which is mark the uk this august the nobel peace laureate center and we do a lot of work in yemen that this particular moment to try to do peace mediation and of course when it comes to arms it never helps it's again a very concrete question still be stopped on not these arms
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yes and no actually it is not about concrete and it's not that black and white because it depends on very well it depends what depends on that you're talking about they're talking about satellite surveillance are you talking about the types of instruments i talk about radio with this option union is supporting a hold on hold you have to be a little bit more specific you have to be a little bit more specific than that the european union is not providing arms it is member states from the europeans are the video maybe the member states that are doing it name the name first which arms they are talking about and which countries are talking about then i guess you're talking no but no you listen listen listen listen if you are you prince don't give me generalities start giving me some concrete starting those that aren't you know about are you principally for or against support of saudi arabia arms or whatever it is it's not i mean foreign policy i'm afraid is not that binary you have to look at it from
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a much broader perspective i think the key issue when we talk about values is what kind of values you stick to yourself and then you have to take those decisions on those principles so democracy is dictatorship suppressing your own population or not being an aggressive country and regime or no these are the values and we're talking about the values you want to defend in europe. so why not in saudi arabia why not in iran for example well i think in both cases you have to work with the country in question and then if you find in certain cases that there's a blanket breaking of these values then you stop the cooperation the iraq war in iran you're down you mentioned iran for instance i think there it's very important that we stick to the nuclear deal that we did with iran and that we continue to work constructively with the regime i think that nuclear weapons are
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a question of the future of mankind and of course if you don't deal with those then what's the point of having values it's also a point of double standards iran is also involved in a lot of massacres is also involved in wars is also involved in syria where hundreds of thousands civilians are not living anymore because iran is involved in that so again they'll use on one hand diplomatic relationship on one hand but to be more active and support these regimes how does this fit with your values while it's of course they don't fit it's very difficult to do and unfortunately we don't live in a world that we all expected would emerge after nine hundred eighty nine where we will be relying on liberal democracy social market economy and globalization the world is not perfect it will not be perfect but i think it's very important that inside the european union we work with these values and of course trying to then
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export those values through peaceful means we know that the european union and the member states are exporting arms the sporting relationship on the economic scale saudi arabia or russia or egypt torture and murder show twice and massive scale and the e.u. is still doing businesses with those countries we are talking now about businesses these are the values. europe oh no they are not the values of europe the values of europe have to do with peace prosperity security and stability and we try to work towards those every countries in the world is not going to be german french finnish swedish british or anything for that matter but i think it's very important that we continue to work on the basis of our values you're never going to get it pitch perfect i also must remind that the european union is the biggest aid donor in the world i must also remind that the european union countries have this all of the compensation over no other things we're talking to no it's not it's not that by now
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i think the way in which you're trying to present things i find it extremely simplified and black and white if i understand that no don't like don't do this in the world perspective czars or not they are not you're not are not only without ever having to guard other words you're not listening because you're interrupt me constantly so what i'm trying to say is that the world is not perfect if i had a choice we would be based on values having liberal democracies a social market economy and cooperate together piece by piece the world is becoming a better place do we stop cooperation with everyone who doesn't agree with us no i don't think we know that we don't talk about cooperation no you try to make it black and white the question is how intensively are european countries and also the european union for example supporting businesses trade and these are the governments and these are the ministers who are improving all
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these relation for example with a country like china now you will tell me again we are not china but you and the european union and also your country you are supporting with coming there helping trade for your companies there are these totally terence's stay in and these governments are more in power than they were before how does this match with the values we are talking about. it's definitely not a perfect match but i do think that trade and corporation is a way of bringing nations and entities and areas closer together and my argument this that we're starting to see a china which obviously does a lot of trade do we agree with the way in which they always do business no but i do not believe that we should stop doing that we support more the population in china or the author of having a government if we are coming with a lot of gifts with
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a lot of military cooperation with trade who is really helped by this i think populations more than regimes because at the end of the day when it comes to economic growth for pleasure so much better off if you look at g.d.p. per capita growth in china it is much greater than it was before when start trying to started openness you could argue that it's a much more open society than it used to be but it certainly is different but the control is increasing the dictatorship is not decreasing and we have a real fieldwork can talk about that's russia. the relations with russia is a very complicated putting is still suppressing its own population there is still no democracy in russia russia has annexed crimea there is no sign that russia will leave that ukraine territory or stop supporting separatists in eastern ukraine the sanctions which the e.u.
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has imposed on moscow do you. think that they are working what are your suggestions about it's actually pretty much the only instrument that we have with russia what you just said i think is absolutely correct and i do think that the european union took a good and principled decision by pushing those sanctions and keeping them up my argument was of course when i was meeting in peace in georgia as a chairman of the o. a c. but this is when russian foreign policy started to change and we started to see a vial. and and grabbing on to territory again this is what we can do with russia i mean we have one thousand three hundred kilometers of border with russia we know a thing or two about how to deal with the russians i think sanctions are the best instrument that we have at this moment they are not working well i would argue that they're working look at the g.d.p. per capita in russia look at the konami growth uninterruptedly is not changing the policy it's true but you know what do you want us to do you do it by force but for me you were just earlier arguing that we should stop relations for instance with
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saudi arabia now when i say that now that now i know that i met the relations with i'm not sure it's never been a program where developed to speak at all anyway go ahead your question or lecture was europe as part of the pending on energy deliveries from russia if europe was seen this wouldn't it try to wean itself off of russia energy deliveries instead europeans are building more pipelines and russian nuclear reactors that's what you call defending the european values to be strong against russia no it's actually called energy dependency and i do think and i think you're absolutely right that we need to start moving towards more independence in energy and you need to have that as broadest possible but if you look for instance a gas distribution in eastern and central europe it would be impossible to cut off the pipelines at this particular moment. in your platform that state about migration you state we solved the worst migration crisis and now it is time to show
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all europeans that the situation is under control what do you mean by so. in the sense that in twenty fifteen we had the biggest migratory for flow into europe since world war two we were talking about a million two million illegal immigrants coming in and if you look at the figures in twenty seventeen and twenty three and they are now at the pre twenty fifteen level so it is much better on control than what is was sort of what does it mean solve the problem is still there you have the war in syria you have afghanistan you have refugees and by paying of turkey to keep the refugees three millions of them and that's what you are saying you saw the problem but again we must stop the illusion of utopia and that everything is perfect i think we have mitigated and in that sense solve the problem now it's a question of how you had minister it and of course as you have read my program you
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will see that i have three proposals on how to deal with it in the future as well how can you say that something is so if at the same time you have three millions of refugees and you are dependent from a dictator who is suppressing his own population he is doing the bad work for europe and you are saying the problem is solved now i think what i suggest also in my programme is three things one is to have asylum centers outside the european union in order to be able to solve the problem and of course they should be funded and based on the u.n.h.c.r. secondly i suggest that we have should have a stronger frontex ten thousand and then thirdly i think we should have humanitarian based the silent quote us now will this solve the problem not completely but it will at least alleviate the pain and help it do i feel that the deal with turkey was the right one pro. bubbly it had a time and a place do i like the turkish regime anetta don't know i don't do a like what they do no i don't but right now at this particular moment we don't
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have an alternative that means pragmatic policy is. something which has the same value like values. don't understand your point don't know not what happens when you don't like what turkey is doing you don't like the government but you have to understand and we all have to understand this is pragmatic policy it's very pragmatic yes we tried to find a solution to one of the key problems i think that we have in europe which is migration and i think we have been able to mitigate it quite well i think that we have to talk about the key problem which means africa which means some arab countries and then nothing is sold and therefore as you have read my program i also talk about the focus should be on investment in africa through years and years of course it will you know you're talking about you can pay down your program for now you want to be the president in the next month we are talking about now not in three four five years yeah but i mean to be quite honest let's be realistic i have
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a five week campaign and if i were to claim that i was told the world problems right now that would be absolutely ridiculous i think. not not at all credible so my argument is that what we need to do is to have more corporation for instance with continents such as africa not least because that continent is going to have four billion people inhabitants in two thousand one hundred so we have a lot of work ahead of us yes another if you are of one of your solutions from you can pay a vote we should establish a quota for humanitarian basis saddam seekers for each member state hungary poland slovakia have all rejected any kinds of quota system how are you going to get european governments to support the idea well as i'm sure you were listening a little bit earlier i made that point i can repeat it if you want to this is not about. illegal immigrants as such it's about asylum seekers who are international humanitarian based asylum seekers hungary has not said no on
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a humanitarian based asylum seekers this is a key system whereby you from these centers make some kind of a quota and if you don't do it you can use some flexible solidarity but hungary has not said no to that you have to get your facts right if you're trying to be aggressive in your question in no to asylum seekers and many european eastern european countries say that they don't want any muslims this is correct you heard about that i've heard about that you were talking about values but if you are the president of this organization some of the country's leaders are saying we don't want any muslims this is religious discrimination isn't it yes i would agree that i think you know we must protect minorities for much protect religious freedom and that's why i talk a lot about values but you see i think i mean the problem that i have with your line of question is is that you make a perception that the world is perfect and everyone needs to have the same opinion i am trying my best to improve the world and give problematic solutions and the
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feeling that i keep of all the time is that you know will not find a solution if we don't to do it right away and i think as i think we are talking about red lines and racism is a red light in the values and we are now on the racism so i understand your intervention but i apologize here is not black white and here no assumptions of the real let realities far reich center for the parties have gained ground in this country where we are now the czech republic and austria in germany in denmark in hungary in other eastern european countries this is the real europe today and we are talking about this really europe and the question is what happened in the last years and you were also on duty you were prime minister you were part of the european you. and you know these are the red lines used to stop and i fully agree with you what happened was probably two things one was the euro crisis which
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caused a lot of instability and the other one was the migration crisis which cost a lot of fear in terms of security and i think the model that we have had of societies social market economy liberal democracy hasn't delivered for everyone and my argument is that we need to address these issues but we cannot do it in an aggressive fashion and that's why i'm now standing on the barricades to try to first talk about values because they are the anchor of what we have and then try to do policies on the basis of those this is what the populace is doing the explanation you just gave us is on this one hand the other one is that's not an argument patient to vote for parties who are racist center fabric nationalists so this is a political reality and you know what we did in finland we actually hog the populace to death you might remember that in twenty fifteen they came into government and
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they had three promises no more austerity no more money to greece and no more migration what happened we had to push austerity and we bailed out greece and then . for historical reason we had the biggest migration crisis ever their popularity hogged they split us apart and now they're out of government so that's one solution but not we don't like you want to be the president of the you get as they want this said i have voted when my point is that i have dealt with populists before and i will deal with populists in the future as well this is what i want others to help phyllis yes to a certain extent is. is he a dangerous populous i have made it clear that i don't like is a liberal policy so i don't like his attack on academic freedom or on freedom of n.g.o.s or on freedom of press but he is even one of the grooves in u.a.e. p.p. are you in favor of and this is possible it's not as company. then in the u. of excluding open sfi dish party from the e.p. your family yes and the way in which i would suggest that we go through it this one
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have a dialogue to have a declaration on values and if unfinished does not sign that declaration of values then they're out viktor orban is and has been also prime minister of hungary has been reelected should hungary be punished by the e.u. for its antidemocratic behavior yes that's why we have article seven that has been put into motion this is what the european union is all about you have to basically show that you put your money where my office you spoke about some reasons not arguments that reasons to understand populism it's only now has a populist anti or starting government that has recently approved a new budget with massive new borrowing they are breaking the rules of eurozone countries on day yes they are and that's why i've always been very strong on a rules based system the stability and growth pact and i think when you are in bad economic times you should be expansionary when you're good economic times you
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should probably do the structural reforms and i'm quite savvy and a bit scared to watch what's going on in italy at the moment what would be your reaction on italy oh it would be one to follow the rules so i would be very much the guardian of the treaties on this particular case on the other hand you know that austerity for example in spades or in italy we have there a lot of unemployment use unemployment so poverty on the one hand and principles on the other and what is more important they go hand in hand basically you need to have structural reforms in place you need to have an economy that works in order for you to be able to feed the well first of society it's not a give and take it's not only about growth or austerity you need both you said our values are under attack from both inside and outside. the u.p.d. union which a tag is more serious and dangerous i think they're both dangerous you know the way
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in which president donald trump is acting at this particular moment china which we discussed earlier i'd much rather we do the good guys do the algorithms then the chinese and then of course russia so that's the attack from the outside and then from the inside it's also worrying you know i do think this is a big problem that's why we need to try to address it whether it's from italy poland remain here or hungary it's something that we need to deal with if we stand true to our values and was a time where we wouldn't have said outside the united states what change i think the u.s. administration changed you know we have a president right now in the united states who is quite unpredictable does this mean that we are stopping our guys yeah i'm a predictable obama italy i think hungary yeah when it comes yeah no when it comes to european policy we're quite predictable when it comes to trade when it comes to foreign and security policy when it comes to crisis management when it comes to
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believing in the values that is really ours to use to the u.p.a. who are not credible not all of these parties and of credible anyway what is the difference between mr albany and mr trump regarding the fact that it's a small country a big country well of a asli mr orban is a prime minister donald trump is a president of the united states when it comes to values they probably have a lot of similarities but mr orban is not europe he comes from a country of ten million people which is great in and of itself but europe is much more than one specific but members of the engine all member states are going into the direction of totalitarianism of the destruction of the rule for the all the freedom of press this is this really easy on the part of you again and this is exactly the reason that someone needs to stand up on the barricades and defend european and global values wouldn't you agree this is midst of a. no it's me. thank you very much for calling the.
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