tv Conflict Zone - Brexit Special How did we get here Deutsche Welle January 31, 2019 4:30am-5:01am CET
with me and stephanie. fissions from around the world. starts feb second d. double. after two years of division and deadlock britain is now racing towards its deadline in march to leave the european union in a conflict so special this week we look back at some of the key arguments for the shape this often angry debate who was telling the truth and who wasn't.
one of the accusations against the leafs side is that you consistently fail to articulate what the british economy would look like after bricks. last december we got a flash of real honesty from nigel farage at the oxford union when he said that i will accept that none of us knows what the risks if we leave the european union. muffles the most momentous decision that the british are being required to take in forty years. and you know what the risks are so not sort of fly with me and we'll see what happens as yes yes but that's it isn't it is the whole point is that if we don't think the country is worth more than then the whole point is if we put the x in the box in the right box on the ballot paper we then have two years of hopefully a responsible government hopefully a responsible chain that will negotiate a at exit package which is hundred one is upset
a hundred word it's like surely isn't it may be you know with luck yes as is this is a huge gamble you want the british people and it's a huge it's a huge gamble for both sides and nervous time for you coming up to the referendum so nervous that you've even started talk about what it would be like to lose haven't you. well what i was actually trying to do was say that the leave campaign has made no attempt at all to describe what a post that u.k. would look like so the question i was raising was if we were to vote to leave which are clearly hope that we want what would the mandate be because there's a huge difference between staying in the single market or leaving it so why residence in those you sense defeat you know i'm raising it now because i think it's really important that when people go to the ballot box on the twenty third of june they understand what leave means and at the moment there's a black hole where bill was going questions even if they vote believe they know what they don't want they don't want free movement they don't want to massive
contributions to the un they don't want to be governed by laws made in brussels today precisely to be quite clear what they don't want precisely the point that if you want to water that don't know i would i'm saying is if the op option on the table is to stay in the single market like norway is not in the but in the single market you have to accept free movement of people and you have to pay into the e.u. that you want that is that's what i want you to leave campaign below is it was not of well i the last i looked at. twenty three different models that they've proposed you never stretched a fact in this campaign in every campaign some people have and no i don't think i ever did but some people on both sides used good and bad arguments but if you saw the people involved leave using bad arguments music. losing argument the whole country was involved in this campaign so of course there were good and bad arguments that's also an excuse for misleading people i don't think i've missed letter but what about your campaign as you were leading right of the campaign some
people who were campaigning for early vote used bad argue not only. did you want to rein them in well. in life we are responsible for what we do right we're not responsible for every ally who might have reached the same position as you were signing or evoke leave camp you will know and i say by name by all that you and then we can. set the strategy you have to answer today well here are a number of things that were said during the campaign that i think may now be fairly decried as false we were told that there would be an emergency budget that would have to be emergency tax rises we're now being told will be tax cuts we were told that our immigration officers. that the french government is now said that's not going to have as a consequence for what the other side said i'm only going to hold you responsible for what you said and mind your own your sense of what i said let's do a course first with what appeared to be radically conflicting claims by you and other leading lights in in your campaign right after the vote you cause something of a stir on television by saying that you favored the free movement of workers to and
from the u.k. it means free movement of labor you said it doesn't mean citizenship my question is at what point did you declare in the campaign vote it'll mean free move throughout at every minute of every nearly every well actually give me one a very old program me one example if you'll allow me to go well to yes on that very program sitting around that very table with that very same interviewer at the start of the campaign i had said exactly the same thing i written a book called why vote leave which sets it all out which sold twenty thousand copies are hardly think i can accuse of which something this small brittle means free of labor yes it does we need first of all to triggering of article fifty eight by the government of mrs may and the proposal the basic idea that i have in this negotiation is not to destroy utopian union in this exercise because what the british wanted was some of the british people won because forty eight percent had voted its way may govern your vote while the government one is to make
a split between the freedoms in europe freedom of goods freedom of services. freedom of capital what they want to do is to make a split between these three freedoms and the freedom of movement of people and we shall never accept that the unity of the four freedoms for all citizens is a key element and if somebody is negotiating and saying we will never accept that so. no we will never accept to do the european union you cannot expect that if the british people or the majority of the british people want to go out of the european union that we shall destroy utopian union i have to defend the interests of european citizens but i have to defend the interests of the german citizens the belgian citizens who want to keep the european union because it's in their advantage. because their work is a job that what is happening the central issue is what is more important the single
market or freedom of movement prime minister terrorism may say has said migration from the e.u. will be cut so what will happen you are you know what will happen what she wants is very clear she has announced it becomes a party convention a few weeks ago she announced that she wants a kind of free trade agreement which you have been given so that will be to make a station but what we don't have are a negotiation when one side is saying never no no no it's about of that it's about as a free trade what what we don't want we shall never accept is to undo to destroy the internal market to destroy utopian union by saying to the people ok freedom of movement is not longer a basic principle of the union. let's be honest the freedom of movement is key for the european union the freedom of travel the possibility for german people to work in to another country that is the key. we will never again never destroy so were
is the negotiation case not the. the meters are saying very clearly we don't want to have that and no and that is the reason why they didn't want to leave the european union that's the point and the question is now what is the new relationship between the european union and great britain one of the great britain has left the european union and that will be the topic of the magazine and on your heart is the you even going to exist in five years time some seven years time absolute as it is now as it is now even stronger with the same members having in mind that five years ago we had the economic crisis say europe we have still an economic crisis eleanor it's still the helen here today stronger we had to take really great britain left everything the regs said france having elections we see the brics it will lead at the end to a situation where people understand how important this union is because today not
berlin in paris as a problem is proximate london is a big problem is and what i was saying here is this it would be a bad thing for the peoples of europe. if the political class of europe willfully go for a bad deal with britain because they want to punish us they will discourage other people leaving the club and i do not think that across much of europe that the political elites are held in any high degree of regard so you can certainly accuse me of attacking the european elites but my goodness me they've given me something all right here's this from the german common effect as you told everyone in britain of course the germans will never allow terrorists to be slapped on their car exports to britain would want it they wouldn't want it ok so when the chancellor merkel tell the world she said the internal cohesion of the e.u. would come before defending german exports to the u.k. the association of cum manufacturers says the future of the e.u. is more important than short term exports or you know what this actually plays the
ads even more this gives me an even this gives me an even bigger card that i thought i had to play because here is my i don't want your car that's what they're telling a little bit but i don't give a damn car oh come on the relationship between big business big banks and big politics is what it is they don't want things to change they like the status quo the way that it is but i bet you that if we went to a bar in munich the seedling i met some german car workers and have this conversation what they care about their jobs what they care about cosby may i mean that the answers are going to go your route just for that i'm not talking to the bosses i'm talking to the european peers the ones who make the decisions want to do something actually you and they're backing myrtle grove that you're all wrong then let me tell you why you're all wrong we are due to leave the european union at the end of march nineteenth ok the european elections take place a few weeks later what i want to try to do is guarantee of success what i want to try to do is to make sure that those m.e.p.
is who are up for reelection. are asked by their electorates are you going to vote for sensible trade deal are you going to vote for our jobs because you know one thing's for certain there are a one point three million people in germany whose jobs rely on exports to the u.k. market what happens if it all goes wrong and we haven't even started what have the negotiations you said in twenty fifteen you said in twenty fifteen at the oxford union none of us knows what the risks are if we leave the european union none of us knows what the risks are if we stay in the you know that run so we were left to just you know take your bravado and your but it's very simple and your assurances are that very simple we're left to do that very simple you could never predict the future exactly whatever side of the referendum or are you in as you say you'd u.k. what anyone thinks he knows the future should be retarded they should have had a fall to be about. the real question with that referendum. was
should we be responsible as a nation with its own identity for making the keep decisions that determine our future i want to get them right or get them wrong genuinely once every four or five years have the chance to hope to work out the people who took those decisions or do we think our future better to be a small voice as part of a bigger new state and i've been as you know objective about that as i possibly can but that's what the referendum was about what we opted for not by a bus of barge of what we opted for was making our own decisions and steering our own ship and that i believe to be right it also starts here's a context which is really important we've said that at the end of this process when people know what the breaks that deal what leaving the european union might look like when we've got a few answers that we don't have at the moment then you give the people of scotland a choice and what's been fascinating as a way that's been embraced by politicians across the european institutions and
across europe as well and serve the party is almost completely united around the process of leaving the european union and also by the way on leaving but it's the mechanics of attorneys who are negotiation excuse me do know the outcome of the negotiations or we're talking or they can it's with the party doesn't get a million which is why good government the government the got just you know they were like oh no the government doesn't even know what it was you're neither so we're in the middle of a negotiation my point is you negotiate that's what you do you negotiate with the european union european union has to know what it once this government does you say it oh well actually i did read the other day that or a number of people in the european either don't agree with the commission for example i think it was the austrian finance minister maybe wrong about exactly what job he holds or maybe it was a commission i can't remember they actually said quite clearly that he thought the u.k. was in an incredibly strong position because the european union needed the trade we also had to fight he's the only one isn't the only one let me finish the finance minister of a very election mrs merkel the other day about making sure that she didn't screw up the negotiations because over a million and
a half jobs in very low on exports to the. u.k. of machine tools and cars alone there are plenty as i talk to a lot of european businesses i was talking to a person the other day that does low tech products is a belgian manufacturer you produce of potatoes he said the last thing we need in europe is a tariff wall because my business would go down the tubes i'm poor lots of people i said have you spoken to your politicians he said we're talking to them now so before we just get this out of kilter the european union is in a position where they're not altogether completely united and they also recognize that they do need a trade deal not only a deal that is your go sheet it until i know a bit more about traders and you do it not only trade deal let me tell you something about this trade deal i'm able to stop interrupting in just let me tell you about a trade deal right you might learn something here's what has to happen as we leave the european union we will also reenter the w t o as a voting member were a member but we're not a voting member now the show jewels that are owned by the e.u. actually have a financial tag to them so unless they agree with us the amount of money that we
pay to take some of those shell jewels relevant to us and lodge them at the w t o they will end up as the e.u. spending a great deal more money for less potency now here's the point they have to settle that that's not they might they have to settle that at the time we leave otherwise they pick up a bigger bill so mr barney a knows very well that until this for example is settled nothing is settled but we are where we are there's no point in revisiting history there's no dance in the country for a further general election what their arguments for from i know from standing on doorsteps in my constituency it's for the u.k. government to proceed with the negotiations and then that with the best possible deal so that's why all these things should be very much explored the my point is that in trying to get a solution that placates both remain as and brick city years britain seems to be reduced to putting forward ideas that are pretty much unworkable is that. really
the best your party can do well i think that all options have to be on the table until the world is objective well i think the understanding is understanding of the why things are rejected now the fact that referendum has been hugely divisive in this country i do think one of the mistakes made early on was not trying to acknowledge that whilst the leave campaign of one sixteen million people forty eight percent of those who voted had not voted for this so in trying to bring people together to explain that we would be leaving but we would do it in a way that was not going to damage completely unnecessarily people's own livelihoods and our economy that's what we're sort of catching up to now that's right spec to be debated both in parliament and in cabinet in the next few weeks looking back over the last two years you were part of david cameron's cabinet which approved this referendum why did none of you ever asked the kinds of basic questions that people are grappling with know what if what if we lose the
referendum what is the budget splits what if europe applies the rules what about the northern ireland border why were none of these questions thought about beforehand so i can't say they weren't there weren't thought about. well partly because of the many of us campaigned in order to remain and it's difficult if your campaign for one thing to gaze into the crystal ball and answer every question that's going to come up i deeply regret the result but the result is here is we in this country or the sea had a fair and democratic vote difficult very difficult for people to accept but i think it is the right thing to do to balance those two now which is to say yes we are going to leave the european union but we're not going to do it in a way that is damaging if we consider back to the past a read of the vote from two years ago and actually i think what happens is that attention is not given so that future relationship between the two parties which is very important or as we call it response system. of democracy rule of
law parliamentarism is under stress what happened in u.k. u.k. them the origin of modern parliamentarism. moved the most important decision in first. from westminster to river and i'm crazy there seems to be in a sense in france that this was really just a british problem and france could get perhaps some profit out of it but that's changing now isn't it. it's not just a question of wanting britain to suffer all the macro. suggested that he thought they should suffer didn't know he said i mean in fact it shows us one thing it's not easy to access the european union not without cost not without consequences is that force well he wanted the suggestion is that he want to blow to pay back a gesture that other suggestion the matter of fact meeting the e.u.
is a complicated process i don't think that anybody on either side of the channel would deny that would you do you know do you know anybody who would actually say that the process of leaving the you is an easy one. well actually people in this country in britain certainly said it was an easy one but they've been proved wrong do you believe in a last minute deal the two sides taking it right down to the wire just to show that they've extracted all the concessions i'd like and frankly others i'd just like to make a point there is no one including the president in france who thinks the brits it is a good thing but there is a strong feeling in london that the french wanted maximum uncertainty for as long as possible but one thing to try and persuade british based finance houses and to moving to continental europe you know within fairy very clear from the from the get go about what was important to france we just talked about europe we consider that the european single market is the future of our economy we were very clear there is one key red line which is any deal it cannot undermine that single market my
question was do you believe in the last minute deal because it seems that mr bonior is softening some of his positions on northern ireland and the. financial services i think we should do everything in our power to find a deal i think not having a deal would be if not disastrous at least very hurtful for both parties so i think we should work absolutely consistently with one objective in the head to fade a deal i do not get any price and it doesn't come at the price of undermining the same attitudes that your populous movement has already in the in the it states by. livening up white supremacists no doubts on greasing the numbers of their lies ation and with brick sits in britain has created enormous damage to the social fabric it's led to bitter political polarization because you've been looking for
people's grievances and go and you want to stir it up i want i want to tell you that the because them are your dangerous people have is the biggest thing just dealing with the because their message has been created by the leaders of the so-called elite to the ordinary guy for the last twenty or so you look at the social fabric and its existing today look at the social fabric for example in france and so on look at the social fabric you know in the small. english english cities for example and i look at the rising on the. last year we are nearly we are we are not you we are not bringing we are not bringing damages wellbeing damages to the social fabric we are bringing damages to deal eat to the establishment as it is to these that are strong and we are a threat to them and little else inside to not tell the reservation inside the president didn't exist before really you can. you can make it worse no you can no you ask me this is what we are the problem we are start this we are to content they
did it to represent the ordinary guy ok that has been so long despised and forgotten by the israelis and indeed we are populists from all over the world the voice of this ordinary guy i would invite. to follow up our offer to be compromising by should take a look at the deal where they've already said this is the only deal on offer so that you can come back again in a couple of months and try to alter it again well there's been no consistency from the british side has i don't think the british side has negotiated particularly clearly and i do to some extent sympathize with our european partners that. to reach may's government hasn't been very clear because of internal divisions within the within the government parliament has legislated that we're leaving on the twenty ninth of march now hala has been clear about what it doesn't want us to resolve their self says it has been clear about what it does want well parliament
is so far rejected the withdrawal agreement but it hasn't rejected the leaf date of the twenty ninth of march and it remains to be seen whether it does get to the e.u. there's very little point in the go shooting with someone who manifestly does not have a mandate for the deals he's already agreed little in anything else in the future but she has a mandate as as does the house of commons as a whole to leave the european union to fulfill the referendum result and as i keep repeating the law is now quite clear in the united kingdom and indeed in the european union we're living on that date now there are people in the house of commons who are trying to change that decision change the decision of parliament. they are assuming that the european union will automatically provide some extension to article fifty i magine the european union is going to want to ask what for why are you extending article fifty. one of the draft proposals extends article fifty
for nine months do you really want the united kingdom to take part in the european union elections to the european parliament when we're planning to leave the european union just nine months later you've been saying that no deal is increasingly attractive but that's not what you and your vocally colleagues promised the country was it time and again they promise great deals with the e.u. and everyone else instead they just fall into britain slapped and they turned out to be not so. i have to confess that i think it's in the european union's interests to strike a sensible free trade deal with the united kingdom and whether we may. that agreement before we leave which looks rather unlikely now or after we leave i believe that that's what will happen but in the end my point is the really broken promise is when. the vote leave campaign didn't make promises we were campaigning for your fellow. brits it secretary david davis constantly post to both britain's
exit terms and a new free trade agreement would be wrapped up within the article fifty timeframe that hasn't gone so well he said at the end of two years or so and thirty six in the end of two years he said we will have other deals you don't have you paul i think there was definitely over confidence but i think it wasn't helped by the fact that tourism may. couldn't bring the cabinet together to agree what they were going to ask for and then and then started asking for a much more complicated arrangement than i think that president tusk was originally offering that march last last year and then the whole our border question has been confected as a mechanism to try and split the united kingdom. in a way that's completely unacceptable i don't know why the prime minister ever accepted the premise of that discussion but a chink you could tell your conference and thank you thank you very much.
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