tv Conflict Zone Deutsche Welle March 28, 2019 4:30am-5:00am CET
troops out. to overcome the trees. and connect the world. to china. coming up ahead. minds. the trial of cattle and separatist leaders over their failed independence has laid bare some stock divisions in spanish society not least over the justice system my guest this week here in madrid is spain's foreign minister burrell how does he answer the charge that the trials are fundamentally unfair. you as a bar of welcome to conflict. that. last year
a lady called come a follow up was the president of the catalan parliament she was arrested charged with rebellion when she was interviewed last december she was spending fifteen hours a day in her cell in solitary confinement is this really the image of spain that you want to show the rest of the world. judiciary decision. to. keep people under control another to avoid them to escape from the justice like a grandmother in her mid sixty's in a prison convicted of nothing enjoying joys the presumption of innocence before her death. everybody who did preventive jail enjoys the presumption of innocence instead of thirty percent of the people who are in jail preventing the
tension it's hard not to see her incarceration as the action of a vindictive state setting out to punish defendants they should. be enjoying this presumption of innocence and had a president. has nothing to work with your on record as saying that you wish some of those in pretrial detention were three. times exactly that they would have. the judge could have found another way of preventing them from escaping the action of justice you said there were other methods that could have been used you said there were other methods that could have been here so this was unfair treatment. in your view no. you'd have preferred to see them out of pretrial we know another thing to make me say things that they haven't said. honestly international calling
to the use of pretrial detention is justified only when there is no alternative measure which would insure the interests of justice you have said there are alternative measures so it is unfair well look you've the judge has decided to these measures because he things it has to move so i am not going to. decide in the plate of judges in spain judges are in depth and then they take their decision by the home i understand that already and if maybe mr put him on had an escape maybe they could have taken another kind of measures do you know that with the man on the list has been escaping gatlin of justice but you know that there are very few people who don't know that or listen to them them explain that but it's not your role you tell me the courts are independent but it's not a role to turn a blind eye to serious questions and doubts about the way your judicial system is
functioning isn't it because you came to power your government came to power promising to transform. space my point to you is keeping people in. lockdown in solitary confinement for fifteen hours a day. so much confinement fifteen hours a day sixty three year old grandmother convicted of nothing but excuse me whatever you say convicted of nothing do you know about the conviction. i start thinking that you don't anything about it she hasn't been convicted of anything as she seemed charged but she has no charges inflicted well let's. stop it we're going to stop this interview and this i mean if you continue like these are you stop it. you are not been debating me going to be weighing me.
so you. know i'm i'm not a subject of any kind of inquiry from your side i understand that the right questions and let me talk if not you stop it absolutely ok i just don't think i'm look. you came to power to modernize and. last year the e.u. scorecard which measured public trust in the independence of national courts and judges put spain in twenty third place on the list of member countries below portugal hungary and romania how do you feel about that spending ranking among the twenty best democracies and devolve. with. no. need of. the economy.
i think in this being classified. as a being. but the truth is when it comes to the charges of rebellion against the catalan defendants there has been a substantial outcry both here and abroad present that last november more than one hundred legal experts in spain signed an open letter condemning the charge of rebellion in the council didn't move you why don't you lead the judges made their work i'm asking your opinion. in spain. how do you think that the decision of the german court which refused to extradite the former catalan leader. on the charge of rebellion how do you think that has affected the credibility of the case against him because the german court said the amount of
violence required for the charge of treason which is the closest they have to rebellion was not seen. in breach of the public peace they said does not apply because the mark was only involved in carrying out the independence. the german judge. has. it's a blow to your case. which at the time. of the journey the course was the court was basically saying that your central charge against the catalan defendants doesn't hold up. i don't know how. the situation in spain but who has to judge is this pain score. any suggestions here in spain that they're not going to get a fair trial the professor of constitutional law at civilian of the royal said i would like to be wrong but the way in which the october first case has
proceeded so far inevitably points to a guilty verdict the trial will be a farce even though they will abide by all the legal procedures while it's been held the verdict has already been written it's a chilling accusations. just that. when you learn agree with the association of judges for democracy about the appointment of some of the leading figures in this case very very much by. look for the people who criticises the judges i can tell you know other people who has. there may be other views but there's been a damaging criticism house and moved into a third time i am answering you this same hands in spain judiciary is independent power let them do their work. the month
accused you of contributing to the increase in hate you said when you were appointed foreign minister this gesture they had in mind in order to send us a message of fraternal deescalation the fact that you have been you a catalan have been dead set against catalonia independence was he right was this a message of fraternal deescalation. can you tell me why mr bush is saying these kind of things i can't i don't read his mind i am asking with the asking whether you agree with it not sure not why should i try to defend myself from their consideration when mr put them on if you are unable to say. there. if you have three have those like these three the year while you are talking about do you want to deescalate the situation have been discussed hating the situation this government has been making to be careful to know that the discovery of this
situation and implementing the old kind of measures in order to make things go into normal again but we cannot give to them that the people will get a way to put it in the nation as they are asking for because it is again there's been this constitution that this has nothing to do with international law why not have a debate about the constitution and constitutional rights. that could have touched on those provisions which outlaw independence was polish regions could have done it they put up a bunch of the spanish barlow and imprisoned. informed by the basque bit they haven't done it why didn't you do it do you are you not interested in reforming the constitution who is asking for. seventy percent those manuals warlords little judicial reform according according to the center for sociological research so what
you said. the nuclear lying. the center for sociological research has a word seventy percent of spaniards want constitutional reform of some college are some while you can have some guy. abuse record boy finish well one of the nation i don't want to do that anymore. minister in november the human rights commissioner of the council of europe wrote to the senate and the congress of deputies pressing for serious amendments to the so-called law on citizens' safety i know that your government promised meaningful changes to this law. but you haven't delivered them via i.v. in video in this. concert and he was i'm not complaining at all and he said
that this pain is usually first considered that mean that they didn't want him performing according with human rights law. so there was no criticism at all you didn't read the letter that was sent but they had an interview with that they went with them and. i don't think there is criticism about the functioning of the spanish but you didn't you didn't change the law or do you promised meaningful changes to it and you haven't i don't know exactly what you were talking about but the general terms there consideration that the concert will make about this pay system are very good what the commissioner wrote was in his letter i find it disturbing that according to the minister of interior twenty seven thousand alone more than twenty one thousand sanctions have been imposed on the grounds of lack of respect or consideration for police officers and the articles that can easily be
interpreted he said in an arbitrary manner and thus have a chilling effect on freedom of expression well you have a bias approach to this or to a shooting in spain what they can tell you is the just human grades court has had much less cases with respect to spain to many other countries. the court of human rights european court of human rights decided that a number of basque separatists didn't get a fair trial. you confirmed that doesn't help to argue. no it doesn't have my argument. but it can't repeat the ones and again that the statistics show that this pain has much less much less cases in front of the court of human rights than many other european
countries like france belgium germany and others. are you not concerned about this public safety or you want to change it. do you find it satisfactory that so many people were sanctioned for disrespecting the police i am not aware of what do you know about it i can't refer to the statistics or in general terms and the position that the spain has on respecting human right let's talk about arms sales in september last year you announced you had halted the sale of laser guided bombs to saudi arabia with concerns over the use of such weapons in the war in yemen and just days later you changed your mind and said the contract had to be on that. this contract more contract was higher it seems that it hasn't been anymore sell arms. to saudi arabia but you continue to sell arms not since this government this you know thief's they have been selling more arms
you said you had changed your mind and said this particular contract had to be on this particular country already was signed by the previous government and. the spanish socialist government believed that these. were yes i will be honored if you are but these. munitions of this crime have been used against hospitals hotels the water whirls residential buildings factories and last year in a school bus attack so the question of collateral damage when they've been aimed at civilian targets doesn't really apply does what they say everybody who has a meaning mean diligence if you can understand is that the precision. created less collateral damage is that they would just throw random. civilian targets anyway that's just the lack of place of why you have to prove that they
have been used for that well if you read words human rights watch has said last year as of november last year six thousand eight hundred and seventy two. civilians have been killed and more than ten thousand wounded by saudi arabia led coalition airstrikes since twenty fifteen. they have documented about ninety apparently coalition air strikes which have hit homes markets hospitals schools and mosques and these are the people you decided to honor the contract with there is not at all approve the u.s. saying that there are scores by this god of arms where they will bomb coalition coalition air strikes but there are bombs and bomb the plane you know the only thing i've said is something that if you have a little be honest approach to the problem and you're willing to stand that a precision bomb creates less had to hold them that they're round them up as
a former president of the european parliament i'm sure you noted the criticism such arms of attracted in that forum last november i mean a piece heavily criticized the way member states have greenlighted most films exports to saudi arabia despite the fact that those exports violated six out of eight criteria and that's undermined the entire european arms control but the spores vollmer that this space has been doing. doesn't fulfill completely all legal requirements amnesty international so do your own forms export more prohibits arms transfers when there is reasonable suspicion they could be used in human rights violations and we have a committee that control of the support of arms and to make sure that when we support our arms and we don't buy your made any verbal. and you are confident
despite criticism from human rights groups despite what the e.u. parliament has been saying about the need to stop these arms exports to saudi arabia that you haven't violated the criteria he told you before that two or three times but you continue asking the same question that it seems this government is in office we haven't containing the support at arms so no more no more laser guided bombs to saudi arabia at least was a contract that had to be heard or it was signed by the reviews government and since then he hasn't been another one religion to the town i am asking the same question minister in the time we have left i'd like to look at developments concerning gibraltar. your government has made it clear that you intend to use the bricks it process to reopen the question of shared sovereignty over gibraltar despite the fact that both britain and gibraltar have signalled that that issue is
not open for debate why do you bother bother worldwide to open the question of shared sovereignty who says that your prime minister did in november he said that the issue shared sovereignty would be back on the table of the prime minister sunsets for sure it's on the table all the time you will be for you but it's not for them not for gibraltar not for britain for sure what. so what so what why do you think this time you can put it back on the third do you think it's you can use the leverage the leverage of bracks at negotiations to put pressure on britain and. battling for you while really you don't know anything of what you are talking about my god what do you want done don't know do you do not and you don't help anything i won't be what you were talking i had been saying very clearly that we were not going to use the dogs of the black sea to the point of the
table the question most of the rain thing how do you allow your or i just not well informed and you didn't hear your prime minister say in november that the issue of sovereignty would be back on the table would be back on the table but not doing directed negotiations how ignorant you are incredible what about through the trade negotiations if there is to be a free trade agreement between britain and spain what then will the again put pressure on gibraltar either you say the scale things are now going to surprise. you come from. this is like this they deal what you are talking of. you say that in the spirit of people you say that and you say that the shoe is on the table first of all you said the government had hadn't said anything about putting that on the table then you admit that prime minister certainly did say that can i explain if you follow please please have an answer to your continues
question please can you give me the opportunity please. we have said very clearly we have not going to the question of rain on the table on the framework of breaks in negotiations and we have been down which doesn't mean that we forget about the question was here for that will we reach five agreement with the british government that what you brought it up or the with all treaty and in the future we also agreed with it would be a good reason that any agreement with united in the little perspective rolled you have to be on the control of the spain new government that's all nothing more than that for sure we requested mr frame but it hasn't been called on that they will do just that to negotiation you should know about the time not good questions on the fourth wave. on this on february the eighteenth minister one of your warships
to the waters and tried to order out commercial. tied up that. what was the point of that action because it is forbidden for the chips to stop they can pass but they can not stop now these were gibraltar waters british gibraltar waters which you don't recognize we. do growth. because according with your treaty. we lead the land waters we are acting according with into a nation. the ships can pass by can not stop. one of your most experienced diplomats who headed your mission of the sea matters and. has said publicly that there is no legal basis for claiming that gibraltar has no territorial waters it is not
a point of view with them and it's if you have a disagreement you do have this disagreement over gibraltar waters why not settle it through the disputes procedure of the law on the sea conflicts when we talk so as far back as nine hundred sixty nine that very night that you put the question it would be much better if your lead to interview were to answer that. priest now also continually cutting my answer is a true sense of the question i have to all your for this pain is not over. the ships can pass by but they cannot be stopped in the water but we can see that they don't belong to this jew grover's for one will settle this issue might go along the way that one. way that. why not settle it. i understand how you miss it you know the answering my question in this book i am
asked the question that many parents has of one piece my you answer what are you afraid of dialogue taking it to international arbitration to the international court of justice they could decide this international committee of justice is not competent for this kind of question and the un law of the sea they are competent but you want to take into their my over you want to put me in the bank of guilty people or i'm just asking why not. you're really funny. you've just reached a tax agreement with britain over gibraltar so dialogue can get some results can't . unload with your broker who i said with i said with region yes you have to wake up women got something wrong with it you were concerned about tax fraud in gibraltar suffer right why not do more to prevent things like fraud and bribery and money laundering anyway can spain do more and we want.
to more. transparency international says that key european countries are failing to enforce the oh you see these anti bribery convention which is one of the main instruments for fighting global corruption which is the question. and spain is one of them we did it with you and spain is one of them so currently showing according to transparency international little or no inforced why is that with you as much as we can. what you could do more sure goto google better good interview. mr good to have your own copy of salt thank you thank you to you know but next time . if you could get questions and i'll answer by years away. i'm not here just to give you the questions you want was so.
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kind of freedom that we want. how did morality become a gateway to islamist terror. an exclusive report from a destroyed city. in the sights of bias starts april eleventh on t.w. . british lawmakers have photos against eight possible alternatives to prime minister teresa mayes breck's a dale motions on a second breakfast referendum and commits in britain to staying in a customs union attracted the highest number of votes but both won narrowly defeated it comes as may said she will step down.