tv Conflict Zone Deutsche Welle May 25, 2019 6:30pm-7:01pm CEST
joining me from africa. or link to exceptional discussion. of easy to our website comes to join us on facebook. the point is that people want change why goal in the middle of everything that's certainly going to you. they took you for student while i don't know if they took off for full last month's venezuela's opposition to that poll just moved yet to try to get the military have come over to their side and unseat the government but the effort failed my guest this week here in london is van ness and more representative to the firm as well an opposition leader and self declared president. what comes next.
and that's the norm and welcome to congress thank you thank you for having me. you have what amounts to a failed uprising in venezuela behind you and your movement continues to make. incredibly optimistic predictions about how the seats in the government why is that because the situation is unsustainable we have 18700000 venice ones have lost 25 pounds over the last year that's the beginning of a major famine you have been saying it's unsustainable for the last 2 years up you've been saying it's unsustainable becomes as each year becomes increasingly unsustainable i mean you said you said the other day that in 2 weeks' time the lights were going to harden very very low there were no answer we examine why this was still there the president maduro is still in his palace with these armed forces
as well with some of his armed forces i mean the head of his intelligence agency is now safely ensconced in the area well it's one. even more now though no no really i mean they are negotiating behind his back there are negotiations going on right now and they are looking to 2 to get out and the situation is just a little it sounds really it will run out in the next year but in the last few days we had one guy go insisting that he had the backing of 80 to 85 percent of the venezuelan military based on war because based on the fact that they are suffering as well they are going home to wives who tell them that their work is a humiliation to children that are crying and hungry 80 to 85 percent of the military are the worker bees of the military they are not reaping the $8800000000.00 of drug trafficking and gold trafficking it has nothing to say about their on your side nothing to do is absolutely transparent on the you are
a world you failed to bring the military on target somehow on the contrary the problem is that we have cuban intelligence officers preventing them. following their children and preventing preventing them from rising up and we have over $200.00 military being tortured there have been over a 12 or 241 way dollars committed excuse me before. one way they all took office there were over 12 military uprising attempts by the military spontaneously your latest attempt was described by the crisis group as poorly conceived and easily subdued that's hardly a success is it the point is that people want change they inquired or in the middle i'm sure they don't necessarily want you. on me i'm not there on the moon with your movement vironment ambassador for the movement i think that they do they want out from this drug cartel regime that spot tortures people it is causing
a bigger existence syria this is not violates it's own cause not a huge it's not a big exodus and soon as percentages are least 12000000 people what we can take into account those who've been 1000000 people it's about 5000000 the lot of that don't you have to get on the right i'm talking about internally displaced more we will have a virus later on a year by the end of the year and 8400000 by the end of next year that far as i can see about that's are the only answer the usa doesn't are you guys are going to u.n.h.c.r. the oas the u.n. a.c.r. isn't exactly a bastion of right wing ness now is it apparently your biggest mistake last month was to trust the word of the government officials you were talking to. drug traffickers human rights you knew that anyway so why is it such a big surprise that you were plagued by them why why because they took you for fools student the other know if they took us for fools and we will hope that the
that the positioning of color in the fence of the people come in the fence of the constitution and accept and misty and be part of the right side of history would appeal to them i am fortunately i think that we are the ones who are going to meet and that the people behind this and i was not personally involved i am an ambassador i am not the president i am the chain of command flows down to mean. not upwards the people who were behind theirs and took the decisions i think you know did what power. a bit naive about the amount of money being made by the military and their drug trafficking activities there's another psychological component which you will know well from game theory for instance as you're trying to negotiate a situation you have all these different players and what you know what you know but you don't know what the other person knows about what you know so basically we don't we suspect it's just fairly the cards are very close out of christmas day i
did arts alliance and began oh yeah yeah ok because this is a competitive newbie mason as you've made a number of important mistakes but the people who pay for those mistakes of the people they know according to the u.n. in just 8 days from january the 21st to the 29th where the protests began to write more than a 1000 people were detained many of them were just kids most of them were kept incommunicado for days without access to family say leaving the residence rationing continued to starve we have 330000 venice women coast of america you have a government sponsored look at their lives at risk 330000 have been murdered by government sponsored gangs 7000000. and the best you volunteered with them you are you can see and you and they have really. poorly conceived and easily what they decided you had what are you recommending military use are you advocating a military intervention i'm not here to answer your questions you come here and so why do you sit here and say i'm not asking you when you're already blowing here at
what point do you know urging the people to come out because you're putting more lives in the water than what all the other options than what do you recommend that attack and what happened on april 30th and may for us is in keeping with the constitution that was drafted by chavez and i am here urging them to do that and it didn't work when. people trust you know why should people come out to mr karzai because now they know because now they know how how the regime is fractured that deals dollars of aid your and by the best and that i saw me now has an arrest warrant he is the hezbollah bad mad they also had those issues raised your best and lost you know why is it about one isis group says you've spent the last of america over is that the only view because the american military national crisis script know that momentary to our loss or mero described venezuelan politics now as shaken he said the people were confused wounded and motivated i suppose are still going to
feel as a result of what we have done rather than 20 years of dictatorship and starvation and torture i'm sorry to hear that from the who has dashed now to know and we stand firm despite the fact that since then 28 percent of the national assembly has been you know it has been arrested and our vice president is now disappear disappear in the classic latin american sense of the as a taken with no proof of life given and because the rodeo insists in the last few days that we will as well as for the rights of all people know about a war and i want us to question sure he has insisted in the last few days there is absolute unity in the opposition that's pretty hard to believe what do you mean of course if you post reports you don't move the 5th that some of the opposition senior leaders have become playing the blame game over what went wrong so it's unlikely that you know what you need to use all the reason to do things when they when the prosecution is absolutely across all political parties the national
assembly has members that have been that have been now exiled since may for us or have been disappear or across all political criminality just what you want them in your decision to venezuela has then the president tomorrow i voted for you know critically no idea who it is now i'm sorry i'm sorry what has happened is this after many years of the international community blaming us say you can. get your act together and you need to unify we have unified we have a president according to our constitution called one way the law every single party is behind him my appointment for instance was approved by every single political party in the national assembly by you know liberty hang on ironically what has happened is now that we are unified the international community has structure now you have the montevideo initiative the international contact group the lima group conversations and have anna and conversations now all over the place and the irony
is that that's the ultimate hypocrisy is that the international community ok and sound like a bunch of squabbling children see at the time when we have our act together since when that has a new trails of my people since when have you discovered this newfound unity because by november last year the failure in trying to fight the fight stand by november last year the fights were so bad that luis salamanca political scientist former director of the national electoral council such a handout it was a show that here is very kind of destroyed january tattoo strong january tat 29000 as well and suddenly came together really yes of course under one by the way he became the de facto president of venezuela because mother would always in violation of our constitution we unify behind our constitution and not everybody seemed very happy with the way you took the presidency what do you mean yes 100 hedrick it can you tell us one of the people who visited all with. this one of the most visible opposition figures. when why do took possession of the assembly the view of the
majority of the venezuelan opposition was that ought not to be appointed president the 23rd of january don't idea presented itself sidelined and when you don't know how it was finished can i just assume all the 23rd of january came and he appointed himself we didn't have any information it surprised many leaders in the opposition echo. only his eyes wages are you guys learn this all in politics for a long time for good reason he's a 2 time loser presidential candidate and the he does not have the support of the venezuelan people wonder why they are so his views are only automatically to be dismissed because they don't coincide with no they don't side with the will of the venezuelan people who want out from this regime he is not the leader of a political party he is not even really involved in the political party anymore and he fled the country and came in under dubious circumstances i mean if that's the pope is that's the one person you choose when you have millions of people weeping
in the streets for why they all and and he did the country and you can see him when he went on the tour at the end of the diaspora and you know unless he knows us and there are duros still in the presidential palace and you people trying to find protection while they are using the president and being received in the presidential palace because the russian military the international lath thinks that it's perfectly fine ok for the russians to invade us basically and have military advisors talk about the military now go there and have military advisors in cuban intelligence talked about the military has signed up and that the 11 of foreign terrorist organization which personally intimidated time or can we just kino's i don't know know any stops the uprising more is that how you choose same way the nazi was that is a lie we don't need speeches i want to talk about the military i'm going to talk about the fact that it was reported that one said he would probably accept a u.s. military intervention if the united states proposed it you have been talking to the
u.s. military your movement has been talking to the us my counterpart about. plan b. let me correct you if there factually my counterpart in washington d.c. . will speak to them on monday that conversation has not happened yet so you're pretty serious about this military intervention but i'm not sure this will have a commander in chief. my. our president that is his decision to make he says he's already been talking about strategic and operational planning with the head of the u.s. southern command he ordered specter to have that conversation and that conversation has been scheduled and announced on twitter by catalyst vecchio my counterpart in washington d.c. for monday such a move would also split the international community again you say it's split anyway so you're not bothered about that european union says it doesn't want military intervention the lima group says doesn't want military intervention you don't care what they think about this we are looking at all the options were also involved in conversations at our end negotiations to find a pacific peaceful solution
a peaceful resolution the offer is now and has always been on the table for them to leave the country peacefully on the plane get out take their ill gotten gains take their ill gotten 502800 1000000000 dollars that they have stolen ok take some portion of that and leave and that has to get back to democracy and that the 85 to 90 percent of people in venice whether who want to mother would go out to carry on with their lives let me just say there are many many women as this you so you can get on the plane going to the country yes or no justice and the accountability there were obviously people who had been murdering and tortured they just got off scot free how forgiving do you think the vendors who people are that a shot be after what you say has been done to them well murdering the torturing more that is a force that is already set up and. there are other ways that all of the document can download the document it's called plan base and it's in that we have
a plan for transitional justice it's in our governance bad for transitional justice and the truth and reconciliation commission which happens after you have regime change and you know this because i've done this this has happened a number of times before so we will follow the international standard on that really the fact is these offers of amnesty may well be illegal under international law and might well run counter to venezuela's international. in january human rights watch called on you to amend your amnesty bill saying that any amnesty guaranteeing impunity by absolving government and military officials of the most serious human rights violations that's incompatible with venezuela last winter and i have no obligation that's correct our ambassador to czechoslovakia is actually the one who brought the case to the i.c.c. so a major human rights lawyer tomorrow so who so you don't have the slightest knowledge of these and more than those 80 designs on what they how the how the intern and we will take direction from the international criminal court on how crimes against
humanity crimes people who commit crimes against humanity is very different case and go into a different basket there are people who are guilty of money laundering drug tunnel through my mind and you're talking about people who murder who torture who forced disappearances yourself. you're saying let the whole lot get out you know we are saying we are using this knowing where you are again your facts are wrong really yes your facts are wrong so when our president our president president has distinguished that he has clearly stated everybody has stated it at least 20 times 10 that anybody who is not guilty of crimes against humanity can be offered amnesty those who are guilty of crimes against humanity do not at mysti period and that's in keeping with international law so i'm not sure where you're getting a fact about the 3rd or 4th time in this interview you're wrong so why if i'm so wrong why have all of the human rights organizations got onto your case and said this is something you shouldn't be doing i have gone and it is on what's in their
minds i can only speak to the 5 a day or you didn't hear these words either i don't know but i think you can go on you can go online and find them one this week what's extraordinary also is that not only are you offering amnesty to some of the military and government personnel but you apparently offered to give them a place in transitional government let's think of. just that it has now you may not have the launch how forgiving do you think those were will be that is something that will be announced and what the men as well and people in want for and what form where are you going to be it will be put to them it will be put to them and transitional government is not a permanent government and you know how transitions to democracy are always complicated hard choices oh ways have to be made but again we look at the 330000 people the government has murdered with gangs we look at the 18700000 people on
their way to a major famine 7000000 of whom are are in danger imminent danger of dying and or in imminent danger and in mr justice humanitarian aid so just as humanitarian character aid is being is our side of this regime who is shooting people for carrying out this abuse are valid some of those disputing that are you telling me then the justice becomes no transition comes 1st those who come to realize the error of their ways and come to love our people and their country and the constitution will have that credited to them even if they're going to this government even if they do the minute you really wish they would not use crimes well that is something yes that is long as we get the regime transferred back of the country transition to baggage and. what do you mean i am absolutely certain we need this dictatorship drug cartel gone so that my country before it is self
again are very pro 7 or there are not a government they do not have government fries they were not have that is they have a gun they have the guns and we need the guns for territorial control as well we are also invaded by foreign terrorist organizations they're also bombing our allies and our neighbors there have been 2 terrorist attacks by the un you and i 12. and you might well call in the u.s. military to do the. there are very many militaries who would be out of the colombian military has asked for permission to come in and kill the terrorists you can trust donald trump taking that day trust donald tresses without donald wait wait a minute wait a make no mistake here i'm taking on your amazing irish looking about asking the u.s. military to come in if the u.s. military 1st of all your i have not worked with the military the u.s. military is not from 2nd of all as if you are aware there is a term under a chief of the u.s. military he's the commander history of islander in chief of the military but interesting that all of that does not that's
a relevant i really i guess of course i'm not here to comment on venice or the u.s. politics i'm here to comment on my country you won't comment on the commander in chief of the military that you may ask to come i am not out so you can imagine i have not been able to understand your movement. and i am not commenting on it now. that is not mike in that i am not commenting on i am not a representative of the u.s. government i am a representative of the why the government period i'm here to discuss my country and the blood on the hands of the model dictatorship which is actually the world's biggest drug cartel importing drugs live t.v. said that already we now know that high in the full talks have taken place in norway sorry clee not direct talks correct mediated by norway what's happened in these talks. oh not much is the answer is the short answer to that so what how they've been totally unproductive yet they were totally unproductive there were an initial out we so because the group the international contact group and the u.s.
that you. love to comment on were all the other ones too well it's one way that we're aware that nor you know and the un also again not a bastion of right wing nuts. you know we're aware of these talks and we sent representatives from why the government the mother. sent 2 representatives they didn't authorize together they did not speak to each other they did not have breakfast together and here you somewhere in the point was the man it was with the norwegian oarfish holes to state their position and under what conditions they would negotiate we stated so that's the next step so we stated we were very clear and my president has been very clear and he has stated it once again online yesterday what's the next step that we will enter into any we will enter into good faith negotiations that entails and those 3 step plan we have laid forward since january general setting creation of the system of these tools of
course there are several conditions of course there are conditions to talks or conditions to any talks you buy a house there are conditions it's a little different well of course that's right 30000000 lives at stake so oh yes if there are conditions for your purchase of a house or your does sir you'll get a valid say even 30000000 people are going to lay down preconditions which the other side is going to refuse help for as though we have now we the other side is the one that never met its conditions the model regime is the one who has said it does not want to elections we are not blocking free and fair elections the maduna regime has and the mother would have regime is the one that has extended talks in the past what has happened is one that we have had dialogues and we had the dialogues according to they chose the place they chose the. timing they chose their representatives they kept our political leaders in prison and we set it free the political prisoners know free and they just carried on and in the meantime they have stolen more money. more of these tortured more pete is it
a precondition of these talks that mothers are not doing step with her act absolutely and what makes you think that they're going to do that for you what makes you think because they were negotiating to get him out already there has been a greater than john kerry saying you. know they were aren't they are you are convinced they are serious yes absolutely i know for a fact they were up. i that i can also suppose on that but i know for a fact that they have been negotiating actively with us and also with other countries to find a way to take them there are countries that have said that they will take them so these talks are quite advanced you think you can deal with it takes all this really take what in the negotiations that may actually no illusion no way say that all 130000000 people living under a dictatorship using various doesn't just sour a more very dushan all conditions conditions low key can do anything other than end
of the usurpation the transitional government which is to be negotiated and free and fair elections with proper international observation i don't see how that's a winner take all as for my country is dying under the under the guy gaze of a fractured and conflicted international community that has just watched my people die and be tortured and done nothing about here international community is going to want why go recognition these i mean are you going from inside the country that you know he absolutely does have it from inside the country said people on the streets us that the same thing isn't what it what do you expect than people on the streets it's power people on the streets it's love. people on the streets is support people on the streets as an expression i mean the problem and they and the other the pro-gun pro ice our future and it can come and go well it has certainly won for
mother would have didn't it and it will that's right because he he won't get out of the way and he had a you know he was there on the a fraud he is there as a torch euro he is there is someone who did not want president as i read it is still there and right where i woud saw it in our realities on our duty now we are not on the outside we are in the hearts of the venice well and people we all and what the legitimacy of the of all the western democracies all the demaio all the countries that are liberal democracies that have rule over all recognize our constitution and they recognize the legitimacy of one by the all that we are in a situation where a drug cartel has taken all the levers of power by the way doesn't mean you're going to succeed so you're they are does a side doesn't mean you're going to see your guy trying we have no option but to fight for our people i will fight for my people until i draw my last breath but
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