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tv   Conflict Zone  Deutsche Welle  July 11, 2019 2:30am-3:01am CEST

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those are big changes and must start with small steps globally 2 years tell stories of creative people would have to innovate which projects around the world like to use the term climate used to green energy solutions reforestation. they create interactive content teaching the next generation about environmental protection and we're determined to build something new for the next generation kill us all to media environment series on w. . the government has already shelved the bill that would be the end of it would not come back why should there be amnesty for the rest. isn't that erosion of rule of law isn't going to give me time resolute let me finish this is a heated discussion. there's got to give me a chance to answer my president plenty of time interrupting than i can answer weeks of mass protest in hong kong show no sign of coming to an end but how long will
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beijing put up with it my guest this week here in the city is running tong a member of the hong kong government's capital and senior advisor to its chief executive gary locke to the authorizes now except that the new extradition law which provoked the crisis should be scrapped now and for good. welcomes comfort some. 2000000 people on the streets of hong kong. failures by the hong kong government admitted by the chief executive kerry lam why is she still there why hasn't she was done and well i think this is a more complex question than simply asking why did she not resign 1st of all someone find also not go out of somebody's sails in there well not go there no i don't want to argue about a figure but. a more accurate figure would be more like half
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a 1000000. but even then it's a very very large number of people on the street and i think the government accepted that the 2nd thing is that we must understand what the government had been trying to do. a poll by one of the more mainstream newspapers of the people would turn now in force to march on sunday revealed that 90 percent of the people who march thought that the extradition bill was so enable the hong kong government to send people back to china for trial for criticizing beijing now they couldn't be more wrong i mean if you'd actually extradition because it is this extradition bill yeah and this is that bill about extraditing people who committed a crime across the border or outside the border of our own call comes to hong kong and we need to have a legal framework to see how we would do what i want to get into that is only there
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want to get into that deal has got nothing to do with any of the freedoms or core values of the people in hong kong at the hyatt so why that is so why should the chivas say either resign because she hasn't been able to instant deficiences in the work of the government to tell me which government leaders in the world have not made mistakes this isn't these are huge middle insanities a huge mistake look you know why don't we have we not as i say i'm not there is not a champion of the liberal party saying that you should resign as well clearly that is not even to do with the call there is of freedoms of the people of hong kong now the government has not done except the nation following enough true that is because of the fact that we need to deal with a particular criminal who is about to be released very soon and that basically. impact the period of consultation now that is not ideal i accept but this is not the sort of thing but you say that because the. it's
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a huge mistake therefore the chivas like them all to resign was a minister to resign maybe i want to resign why why is it why don't you really want it in failure then no i'm not i'm a slut i'm not admitting i am guilty of a cheat it kind of phasey admit it deficiencies in the work of the government i personally have to shoulder much of the responsibility as you said i'm sorry says that to your own child says and anxieties instance i'm sorry i mean you are being unfair really i mean wanting her to be that unfair no you're being a little unfair about that she is basically saying that she has not done the consultation farley enough that is not something that any government would take the blame or say the whole government or the leader or the prime minister whoever should resign and i say which government leader in the world have not made mistakes or mr tung not you let me push an extradition to go after follow up on what you said ok about the extradition silly me
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a chance to answer your question i did i gave you a sense then you have to use of you or me not in view of you i give you plenty of. a new extradition bill that was widely seen as an attempt to remove one of the key legal safeguard i think of hong kong's way of life i know you do i know you scoffed at all objections from foreign man who has done some of the most respected legal if you do should have put it here found internationally putting a veil unfairly the prison bill sorry the present statue i do where you've read it and i probably have not because have you read it you probably wouldn't have put the question the way you did the present law was enacted not by the government but by the british colonial government before they hand over which i get the armands not talking about the end of the statue i'm talking about the amendment i'm sure you are so you know i'm talking about the statue you must read the statue right to understand what it's going not if you haven't even read it you don't understand it and you don't qualify to produce that. you said let me just finish i have not
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finished he said you going to give me time resolute let me finish right ok the statute was an act and by the british colonial government it follow very closely the resolution of the united nations in 1900 are you saying they did united nation was suggesting that whole culture do something which is contrary to human rights and core values and freedoms that is of course not true now come to the amendment what the amendment did was not to change the legal framework all it purports to do is to extend the applicability of the statue to china and the rest of the world the state a lot of people aren't buying that you're hard on car association what you want obviously not bang on bar association advice on facts and not talk about opinion or i talk about opinion a lot of talk a very spectacular organize ations mr tieless i don't doubt virus société the hong kong law society the law society of england and wales the international bar
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associations human rights institute fair trials the defense extradition lawyers forum amnesty international human rights watch the speaker of the house of representatives all of them challenge the suggestion by your chief executive that the amendments you want to make to the hong kong extradition laws are in accordance with international human what it is they also challenged say it is if you don't the only one who sees the truth no look they're going to anyone who sees the light tellus to correct you know from a rule of law point of view you would think no one let alone lawyers would object to the cement exert that's what you say as i say it follows what you know after all holy is no nothing if you're the only one who sees the light falls on the united nations provided each member state to do. and we are following the precise regime as the us or g m c u k regime canadian or jim australia and nobody is making any comment about those countries i don't understand that i and i answer
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silence mr to who think that the judiciary in hong kong is not up to its work its name has to do its not my opinion the opinion of your own you've got to look at the 1st article on one association is putting a travesty of the facts to me so the hunk of our association is putting a travesty of the high things we are not looking at the law they're not looking at both of these and the lawyers have got it wrong. it's capable of doing a proper job of keeping you say you say to these and any decision that is made by the chief executive is subject to confirmation by the whole no no no you can completely rough across a rail and we want to say what is wrong about the world because your labor fangio propose you man of action now you can do it on a show propose to handle a lot of and sell criminal suspects can be extradited without confirmation by the hong kong courts. can i say you know can i ask you a question yeah you got all the facts wrong what facts are or one fact is if you
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look at the statue you know that the chief executive has no power to order extradition is clearly spelled out in the state 2 for one thing secondly ordered the chief executive can do is to refuse extradition the other side would refuse exactly that and a final decision is were refused that's the final decision he can she can he or she can only refuse extradition here she cannot all the extradition the only institution which can order extradition is the courts to mr tung that the your and bar association points out that the magistrate of parliament i understand and our chairman so not only does a band the magistrate get a high non-banks a does not have around jurisdiction and who did not agree with this the magistrate are how can i get the question of the magistrate in hong kong says the bar association does not have the jurisdiction to inquire into the quality of justice that the future may go enjoy wrong once surrender why am i going run so
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we don't want the bar association or the wrong really you are only talking about the committal process yes the law has got 2 processes one is the committal process the other is about save guarding and the protection of human rights and fair trial which is being provided in section 5 of the statue as the u.k. law society pointed out in so far as the proposals would introduce any human rights examinations at all they are vested in hong kong's chief executive no those around or appear really is wrong it's wrong so the u.k. law society good is wrong please pick up the search you have to look before you come to me and ask me questions. you're absolutely right that the judges and magistrates of hong kong wouldn't dream of currying favor with beijing they leave that to people like you. you want to curry favor with holy unfair it is not only unfair to me but this is really extremely unfair to the judges and judges are there
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to carry out the law if they can't carry out the law they have no business being judges all right i have no power whatsoever i mean they're not vital to the government i have no power because even the chivas i got it home so has no power confort by the law i keep telling and i haven't said it starfish and enough times for you have to look at the law to understand what are the facts if you don't lose out an organization i can't tell you what other people would say yes yes because their opinions matter no i don't think so the facts matter i'm sorry facts matter our society here at home you know it does do not i have none of the best none of these i mean it's a matter of history of the facts and the u.k. law society who writes that the proposals in the extradition bill fundamentally imperil the operation of the rule in hong kong rule of law in oregon they've got it wrong as well you know i think i don't understand why any why why do they think it
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will imperil the rule of law in hong kong if all of that is happening is that the task of scrutinizing any requests for extradition is to be considered by the judge as mr someone you're not well known business ask i don't say a trial is available in the mainland what kind of fair trial well fair trial what the government has proposed is to ensure that they would be open trial defense and would be a little touch on the mainland yes open towards where do they have open trials on the mainland are you are you letting me answer the question on you know. priest on zurab that's very very and polite all right and there have been this is a heated discussion the no no it was it isn't it this is going to give me a chance to answer my question. plenty of time but you know interrupting then i can answer i'm telling you that the government is proposing to ensure that there will be assurances of open trial the defendant will have the choice of his own lawyer the trial has to be proceeded on the basis that it will be in the language which he
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understands there would be visitation rights or all these the minimum guarantees of article 14 of the i.c.c. p.r. do you know what is' is to be are is international covenant of civil and political rights is a charter for human rights the government is saying that mr john i was not ratified i'm not with china i'm talking about hong kong because the gay keep it as in hong kong but i'm talking about as one can is there i ask all you not going to try to define sorry about kind of fair trial that define turning can expect in the mainland turn on the mainland if there is no guarantee that there will be the minimum requirements of article 14 of i.c.c. p.o. it is written in the law there then the court has no business ordering a extradition even if the court were to alter next edition the chief executive would veto it because as i keep repeating the telling you that achieving say it has no power to order extradition but has power to veto an order for extradition are
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you following that unlikely the chief executive is unlike 100 years ago i request from china based on what fact you say those are like she's an appointee of china so isn't she so so she got to stand up to china suddenly and this is what this is are not go through this on what basis do you say that she would not do that based on the human rights record in china as a civil and she did have a right so she either for that or to have it for years ago to china has she however all of the initial decision of any suspect to china has she you're told me will you tell me i don't know you i mean there has not been a single occasion that that happened we're talking about when it does happen notice i'm not going to talk about when your start all prevents out from doing song did you read that. the latest human rights reports about what happens if you really u.k. report in 2011 i'm asking about the huge rachel real u.k. report 2011 i must go by you lose if someone writes your point commission says that it is paramount that you should respect each member states on judicial system even
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where those civil and political rights and don't use the road you know in china no the continuing to gentian a child of human rights all i also want to say is i'm telling you both in the un resolution and in the u.k. report in 2011 made it very clearly that protection of human rights in the tradition are not mutually exclusive that is why that you've got to frame your legal regime in the way that hong kong is doing to ensure and the gate keeping is in the local judiciary not anywhere else in the world to ensure that any suspect any offender would be entitled to fair trial and protection of human rights when the extradition is being carried out that is the way in which all extradition arrangements mr tuck. is being carried out though well over such an old country is different mr tung what expectation can there be of
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a fair trial in china when civil and political rights according to the latest british human rights and democracy report i don't want is our phones and rights continue to be eroded can i just read what they said the continuing detention and trials of human rights lawyers and defenders lack of due process and judicial transparency remained important concerns i don't want to sound 1st ok how can you have how can you have an expectation of a fair trial for anyone that is extradited i don't want to sound of answer but how can anyone expect a fair trial to be had in syria iraq. we're not talking about syria no great talking about mainland china that is essential to me no it's not is the same of that just say it's not just it's not a china now it's a stick with china why do single china i'm told i'm not this is the whole point of the else that's half the time but i've been talking glazes they know cloying it's a long kong hong kong people will apply the same standard no matter who is coming
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to make the requests be it united case united states united kingdom syria russia 2 china we apply the same standard because this is what the model requires us to do and we would do it period what do you understand the purpose of extradition you would i'm understood what i'm saying but obviously you don't you know what you want but your guess mistake is that of throwing insults at me what's what's your guess about where this is headed with the hardliners in beijing try to teach hong kong a lesson you know or will they show that they're willing to learn from what's been taking place at the fact say that it did not come from mainland i think chivas negative is explained very clearly that it was her own initiative based on the fact that she was asked by the family of the girl who unfortunately was murdered by this hong kong person in taiwan because of the whole injustice of the situation the chief executive agreed to look into it and she was asked to to
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establish an extradition regime which can apply to taiwan applied to the rest of the world which includes china but china is very exercised about what's been happening here called it a downright if you know a direct challenge to no one country 2 systems if you were right china would not have permitted the chief executive to shelve the bill. right on with that go on as far as this administration is concerned i understand there's not going to come back period instead in the last 2 days or so it's just tell me right if what you say were true why would china do it. the fact is you don't know changes and it is are you trying to do i do more that you do otherwise you want how you come and ask people for fall for an interview would you in the us if you had all the answers you would have come to me in the last few days hmong the hong kong my association has called for a credible commission of inquiry not the police complaints council but
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a statutory independent body that can compel documents to be submitted and worst when this is a testify is that going to happen is they're going to be i'm not sure we know there's going to iran are not do you want it to happen because the us are you know i have make clear that i grew greenman with that request but the capital. of the eyepiece see the independent police complaints council has already. on a full inquiry there is only one investigation subject which is the police the police has already promised that they would comply with all requests and brought and provide for cooperation the government has made the same promise so that inquiry would be a very sufficient inquiry but if at the end of the day what was the protests notice they said that's a message come on now i'm going to mar sociate and this is not sufficient the only
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thing you're not you know what to say to call the bar association without looking at the facts and there's a difference we should this very much i have to look at a face look at the facts what you pay the bill why not look at the facts and you have to i don't know what i said let's look at rubbish. i didn't say that but i don't know what facts they looked at but i'm telling you what the facts are right now if at the end of the day the i.c. i.p.c.c. inquiry proved to be insufficient to quit and of course we can look at to see whether there are other ways to implement or to improve what is being done but inquiry is going to be carried out russell and also you want to read into what the hong kong government did or didn't do what that is being look how it failed to ever . body its own deficiencies no it's not the military look at iowa independent does that story not it but it's going to change his ways to listen more and try to gauge more public opinion why does the resort. has to listen
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before but this particular incident is consultation i'm already explained to you why that is song have you heard one of my explanation it was because that this criminal was to be set free in september and his going to leave hong kong if there is no law in place that is the reason but and the only reason why they have been insufficient consultation or not the demands from the protesters are now what about this done has already shell the bill that would be the end of it it would not come back right so it's finished it's finished its step and what about the demands from the protesters scrap the bill independent inquiry says cooler scripts independent inquiry into public or those alright i c c c n a stephenie arrested why why should there be a ministry for the arrest. isn't that erosion of rule of law you've been telling me that the rule of law cannot be road so you're now telling me i'm not telling you
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anything i am putting you are you on that demand you ask me about rule of law and or i mean why i thought he looked around and for crimes committed serious crime committed including we don't like that of course there is a presumption of innocence isn't there have you have is there often a presumption of that there is not on any movie tape if you watch a t.v. take there's also a presumption of innocence have you watched a t.v. tape yes i have watched t.v. tapes of those additional people throwing bricks there is also a commercial innocent now but it isn't there if somebody has from a brick you're telling me they're guilty and know you wait for me to answer you i mean why you've been so unfair why was i put in questions will tell you why i did because one of the question is are we on the fire about why my damndest to try to answer your question i'm asking you if those a clip would show somebody as strong a brick that means somebody has committed an offense right now whether that person is rightly arrested or not is for the court to decide so you can say that somebody
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has been arrested that arrest must be wrong that it's nothing to do a presumption of innocence you understand that i understand that mr turner few days ago you were warning you were trying to evade the point is that only is that if you are somebody who would be arrested let the court decide whether he's guilty or not by simply asking that you should let him go without going through the due process of the law is a stream erosion of the rule of law and you are seeing there how on your high horse and you're telling me that the bill is rooted in the rule of law and yet you're put it to me at the same time that freedom giving freedom or letting the arrest go free is not erosion of the rule of law you holland how could you have such double standard you warned a few weeks ago a few days ago that if things got worse the chinese army might consider taking to the streets you said when there's trouble in hong kong when things turn sour there's violence in our street our fear is that if the police are not able to
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control what is happening here there's a remote risk the chinese army would get involved. how remote is that risk that if it's so i hope i got you why did you mention it no i hope you will never happen why did you mention if this is not finest you're trying to frighten people no it's a fact everybody understand it except you you don't understand it hong kong is a place where it has been operating is operating under the one country 2 systems it is a not very successfully is it calm it's a huge political compromise we are part of china under the basic law china has a responsibility to ensure that hong kong is stable everybody who is doing business here want to see hong kong to be stable all right so yes under the basic law there is provision for the the beijing government to interfere if nobody hope that
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it would happen i'm trying to say that we are trying to of avoid this happening so i'm not instilling fear into people i'm simply reflecting what is stated in the basic law and what is the political reality of the situation you said we need we in the midst of that perfectly responsible thing to do you said we need we in hong kong need to gain the trust and confidence of the aging so that they can allow us the freedom of political reform so what about the other way round what about beijing's duty to earn the trust of people in hong kong with one small ways where they have managed in a very successfully has been one spot where 22 years they have managed to exist on about how unfair and they've been doing of their most to drive well the opinion polls all show that people do not do the majority of people still do not identify it just now and then defies all damaging an example that has worked on this. everybody will got to work harder you think the people of hong kong should play nice to their masters in beijing and they might throw them a few crumbs i do you say are political office words the words i use is that we
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should communicate with each other and we should instill confidence in each other that's what i'm saying you know understand the difference. well he told me good to have you all.
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on the wrong. kentucky into money. sealed super turning to be. unsealed to contain the us into a hostile. place it's found claims vehicles clothes food clubs and it's cooking our planet it's high time to redeem c o 2 cuts made in germany to climb to. the top. grappling with subjects. expressed to felix i am not sure if we have yet but i would love to be considered an artist monday looking for new perspectives clear to him not with replenished but with the us canada doing things differently
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to. come to a place where we reflect on society. such as march 28th want to come to indulge. play it's time. to take one step further play and face the possible. live here on this side of love really tough to search the amount of playing and fire for the troops out of play time to overcome boundaries. and connect the world come up against time for putting w d w s coming up ahead. for minds. burnley good tourist guide truman is booming capital i love berlin the multicultural metropolis in our duramax series. like.
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i love you even want to show you what a space in looks like this was like me by exist between editions 50 stories and 50 very personal tips on berlin's very best picture. book now. every week on t.w. . an airstrike on a syrian hospital in the rebel stronghold of it live has killed at least 6 people rescue workers known as the white helmet say the facility is now out of service fighting in syria's north west is grinding on while the acid regime negotiates with the united nations over a possible peace process. french president emmanuel mccrone has hosted
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