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tv   Conflict Zone  Deutsche Welle  July 11, 2019 2:30pm-3:00pm CEST

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like a story. with exclusive. don't seem. to be curious minds. do it yourself workers. subscribe don't miss. government has already sell the bill that would be the end of it would not come back why should there be amnesty for the rest. isn't that you wrote in a rule of law you say you're going to give me time resolute let me finish this is a heated discussion i don't know if this is what you want it there's got to give you a chance to answer my president you have done what you said i'll interrupt and then i can answer weeks of mass protest in hong kong show no sign of coming to an end but how long will beijing put up with it my guess this week here in the city run the tong a member of the hong kong government's cabinet and senior advisor to its chief
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executive harry lauder do the your thirty's now accept that the new extradition law which provoked the crisis should be scrapped now more i chris figure would be more like half a 1000000. but even that is a very very large number of people on the street and i think the government accepted the 2nd thing is that we must understand what the government has been trying to do. a poll by one of the more mainstream newspapers of the people would turn out in force to march on sunday revealed that 90 percent of the people who much thought that the extradition bill was to enable the hong kong government to send people back to china for trial for criticizing beijing now they couldn't be more wrong i think you could actually i'm sorry should be dealt with. bill. about extraditing people who come. a
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crime across the border outside the border of on call comes to hong kong and we need to have a legal framework to see how we would do what i want to say that is only there want to get into that deal has got nothing to do with any of the freedoms or core values of the people in hong kong so why that is so why should the chivas say the resign because she has an intention deficiences in the work of the government and you tell me which government leaders in the world have not made mistakes this is a these are huge missile insanity is a huge mistake look you know i know we had we not as i say a minute there is not a champion of the liberal party saying that you should resign as well be clearly that is not even to do with the call there was a freedoms of the people of hong kong now the government has not done expect the nation following enough true that is because of the fact that we need to deal with a particular criminal who is about to be released very soon and that basically.
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impact to the period of consultation now that is not ideal i accept but this is not the sort of thing but you say that because it's a huge mistake therefore the chief executive ought to resign was a minister to resign maybe i want to resign why why is it why don't you really want it in failure then no i'm not i'm a slut i'm not admitting i am guilty of and she did kind of face the admit it deficiencies in the work of the government i personally have to shoulder much of the responsibility she said i'm sorry it has led to your own child says and anxieties in society i'm sorry i mean you are being unfair really i mean wanting her to be is that unfair no you're being a little unfair about that she is basically saying that she has not done the consultation thoroughly enough that is not something that any government would take the blame or say the whole government or the leader or the prime minister or whoever should who are. about the execution silly me
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a chance to answer your question i did i gave you something then you have to use of the of me not in view of you i give you plenty of china a new extradition bill that was widely seen as an attempt to remove one of the key legal safeguarding of hong kong's way of life i know you do i know you scoffed at all objections from foreign i know has done some of the most recent acted legal editions or put it here found innocent nationally putting a veil unfairly the prison bill sorry the present statue i do where you've read it and i probably have not because have you read it you probably wouldn't have put the question the way you did the present law was enacted not by the sale government but by the british colonial government before they hand over which are getting elements not talking about the law of the statue i'm talking about the amendment not until you list the you know i'm talking about the statue you must read the statue right to understand what it's going not if you haven't even read it you don't understand it and you don't qualify to produce a you cite let me just finish i have
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a not finished you say you're going to give me time resolute let me finish right ok the statute was an act of by the british colonial government it followed very closely the resolution of the united nations in 1900 are you saying that the united nation was suggesting that whole culture do something which is contrary to human rights and core values and freedoms that is of course not true now come to the amendment what the amendment did was not to change the legal framework all it purports to do is to extend the applicability of the statue to china and the rest of the world the state a lot of people aren't buying that well you are hot on car association what you want obviously not buying on bar association as far as facts and not talk about opinion or i talk about opinion that talk a very lax respected organize ations missed the tieless i don't doubt virus société the hong kong law society. the law society of england and wales the international
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bar associations human rights institute fair trials the defense extradition lawyers forum amnesty international human rights watch the speaker of the house of representatives all of them challenge the suggestion by your chief executive that the amendments you want to make to the hong kong extradition laws are in accordance with international human what is they also how upset it is if you don't the only one who sees the truth know what is going to anyone who sees the light well is to correct yeah from a rule of law point of view you would think no one let alone lawyers would object to this cement exact that's what you said as i say it follows what you know all holy is no nothing if you are the only one who sees the light falls on the united nations provided each member state to do and we are following the precise regime as the us military say u.k. regime canadian a dream australia dream and nobody is making any comment about those countries i
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don't understand that and i understand said mr toad thing that the judiciary in hong kong is not up to its work its name has to do its not my opinion the opinion of your own you've got to look at the 1st holocaust anwar no association is putting a travesty of the facts to me so the hunk of our association is putting a travesty of the high things we are not looking at the law they're not looking at both of these and the lawyers have got it wrong. it's capable of doing a proper job of keeping you say you say to these and any decision that is made by the chief executive is subject to confirmation by the whole no no no no you can completely rough across a real and we want to say what is wrong about that because you're able to answer all propose you men of electrons you can know what i shall propose to man and what effect cell criminal suspects can be extradited without confirmation by the hong kong courts. can i say you know can i ask you a question yeah you got all the facts wrong what facts are or what fast is if you
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look at the statute you know that the chief executive has no power to order extradition is clearly spelled out in the statue for one thing secondly ordered the chief executive can do is to refuse extradition the underside would refuse exactly that under final decision is with refuse that's the final decision he can she can he or she can only refuse or decision he or she cannot alter its tradition the only institution which can order extradition is to courts to mr tung that the your and bar association points out that the magistrate of our home guard and i understand and our chairman so not only does a land the magistrate go find on base a does not have jurisdiction and who do not agree with this the magistrate are how can i get the question up the magistrate in hong kong says the bar association does not have the jurisdiction to inquire into the quality of justice that the future
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may go enjoy wrong once surrender why am i going run so we don't want the. wrong really you are only talking about the committal process yes the law has got 2 processes one is the committal process the other is about same garden and the protection of human rights and fair trial which is being provided in section 5 of the statue as the u.k. law society pointed out in so far as the proposals would introduce any human rights examinations at all they are vested in hong kong's chief executive you know those around or appear rally's right or wrong so the u.k. or society goes wrong please pick up the search you have to look before you come to me and ask me questions. you're absolutely right that the judges and magistrates of hong kong wouldn't dream of currying favor with beijing they leave that to people like you. said you want to curry favor with holy unfair it is not only unfair to me
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but this is really extremely unfair to the judges and judges are there to carry out the law if they can't carry out the law they have no business being judges all right i have no power whatsoever i'm in an advisor to the government i have no power because even the chivas i think so has no power conferred by the law i keep telling and i haven't said it starfish and they are enough times for you have to look at the law to understand what are the facts if you don't lose out an organization and a lot of people would say yes yes because their opinions matter no i don't think so the facts matter i'm sorry facts matter our society here and you know it does not add one of the not of the same means an atmosphere of the facts and the u.k. law society who writes that the proposals in the extradition bill fundamentally imperil the operation of the rule in hong kong rule of law in oregon they've got it wrong as well you know i think i don't understand why any why why do they think it
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will imperil the rule of law and on kong if all of that is happening is that they task of scrutinizing any requests for extradition is to be considered by the judge as mr someone you're not well not just as asking why does say a trial is available in the mainland what kind of fair trial well fair trial what the government has proposed is to ensure that they would be open trial defense and would be a little touch on the mainland yes open to where do they have open trials on the mainland are you are you letting me answer the question on you know so prisons are up for a very and bill like all right and there have been this is a heated discussion the no no even if they didn't it there's got to give me a chance to answer my question. of time what you said i'll interrupt and then i can answer i'm telling you that the government is proposing to ensure that there will be assurances of open trial the defendant would have the choice of his own lawyer the trial has to be proceeded on the basis that it will be in the language which he
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understands there would be visitation rights all these the minimum guarantees of article 14 of the i.c.c. p.r. do you know what is' is to be are is international covenant of civil and political rights is a charter for human rights the government is saying that mr john i was not ratified i'm not with china i'm talking about hong kong because the gay keep it as in hong kong but i'm talking about as one can if they are so you're not going to try and offer difference are you both kind of fair trial that define a turning can expect in the mainland turn on the mainland if there is no guarantee that there will be the minimum requirements of article 14 of i.c. c.p.o. it is written in the law there then the court has no business ordering a extradition even if the court were to order next edition the chief executive would veto it because as i keep repeating the telling you that achieve it say it has no power to order extradition but has power to veto an order for extradition
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are you following that unlikely the chief executive is unlike once again to a request from china based on what fact you say those are like she's an appointee of china so isn't she so so she got to stand up to china suddenly and say this is obviously not go through a lease on what basis do you say that she would not do that based on the human rights record in china the civil and she did have a right said shyly for that alternative for years ago to china has she however although this tradition of any sense of it to china as she you're told me will you tell me i don't know you know i don't mean a day that has not been a single occasion that that happened we're talking about when it does happen notice i'm not going to talk about with your style or prevent someone from doing song did you read the you. latest human rights reports about what happens if you really u.k. report in 2011 i'm asking about the human rights real u.k. report 2011 i must go by you ladies we have one right as you point commission says that it is paramount that you should respect each member states judicial system
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even where those civil and political rights and don't use the road you know in china no the continuing to gentian a dialogue of human rights or else and what i'm saying is i'm telling you both in the u.n. resolution and in the u.k. report in 2011 made it very clearly that protection of human rights and extradition are not mutually exclusive that is why that you've got to frame your legal regime in the way that hong kong is doing to ensure and the gay keeping is in the local judiciary not anywhere else in the world to ensure that any suspect any offender would be entitled to fair trial and protection of human rights when the extradition is being carried out that is the way in which all extradition arrangements mr tuck . is being carried out the well over such an old country is different mr tung what
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expectation can there be of a fair trial in china when civil and political rights according to the latest british human rights and democracy report i don't want is our fence rights continue to be eroded can i just read what they said the continuing detention and trials of human rights lawyers and defenders lack of due process and judicial transparency remained important concerns i don't want to sound 1st ok how can you have how can you have an expectation of a fair trial for anyone that is extradited i don't want to sound of answer but how can anyone expect a fair trial to be had in syria iraq. we're not talking about syria no great talking about mainland china that is a simple no it's not is the same of that just say it's not just it's a china let's just stick with china why do single china until i'm not this is the whole point of the algorithms 7 half the time but have been talking glazes they know canceling hong kong hong kong people will apply the same standard no matter
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who is coming to make the requests be it united case united states united kingdom syria russia china we apply the same standard because this is what the model requires us to do and we would do it period but do you understand the purpose of extradition you would have those that what i'm saying but obviously you wouldn't you know what you want but your guess is that of throwing insults at me what's what's your guess about where this is headed with the hardliners in beijing try to teach hong kong a lesson you know or will they show that they're willing to learn from what's been ducking the facts say but it did not come from mainland i think the chief executive is explain very clearly that it was her own initiative based on the fact that she was asked by the family of the girl who unfortunately was murdered by this hong kong person in taiwan because of the whole injustice of the situation the chief executive agreed to look into it and she was asked to to start
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british an extradition regime which can apply to taiwan applied to the rest of the world which includes china but china is very exercised about what's been happening here called it a direct if you have direct challenge to no one country 2 systems if you were right china would not have permitted the chief executive to shelve the bill. rather with that go on as far as this administration is concerned i understand it's not going to come back period instead in the last few days or so it's just tell me right if what you say were true why would china do it. the fact is you don't know cheaters and it is i do i do more that you do otherwise you want how you come and ask me to look for for an interview would you in the us if you had all the answers you would have come to me in the last few days may come along the hong kong my association has called for
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a credible commission of inquiry not the police complaints council but a statutory independent body that can compel documents to be submitted and worst witnesses are testify is that going to happen is they're going to be i'm not sure which events but aren't are not do you want it to happen because the i.s.i. you know i have make clear that i am going in good greenman with that request but the kapleau. of the eyepiece see the independent police complaints council has already. on a full inquiry there is only one investigation subject which is the police the police has already promised that it would comply with all requests and brought and provide for cooperation the government has made the same promise so that inquiry would be a very sufficient inquiry but if at the end of the day what was the protests nurse then said that's my solution come on in the ongoing matter so serious this is not sufficient the only thing you're not you know what to say it's
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a quota by association without looking at the facts and there's a difference we should this very much i had to look at a face look at the for what you pay the bill how not that effect and you have to i don't know what i said let's talk it rubbish i've i didn't say that but i don't know what facts they looked at but i'm telling you what the facts are right now if at the end of the day the icy i.p.c.c. inquiry proved to be insufficient to quit and of course we can look at to see whether there are other ways to implement or to improve what is being done but inquiry is going to be carried out russell and also you want to read into what the hong kong government did or didn't do what that is being look how it failed to ever . it's own deficiences no it's not the military notice i independent that doesn't actually read more but it's going to change his ways to listen more and try to gauge more public opinion why do they listen to support it has
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listened before but this particular 20 days consultation i'm already explained to you why that is so have you heard one of my explanation it was because that this criminal was to be set free in september and his going to leave hong kong if there is no law in place that is the reason but and the only reason why they have been insufficient consultation were not the demands from the protesters and what about there done has already shell the bill that would be the end of it it would not come back right so it's finished it's finished its step and what about the demands from the protesters scrap the bill independent inquiry says cooler scripts independent inquiry into public or those already i.c.c. see any arrested why why should there be a mistake for the arrest. isn't that erosion of the rule of law you've been telling me that the rule of law cannot be road so you are now telling me i'm not telling
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you anything i am putting you are you on that demand your asking me about rule of law and your i mean why supporting those around and crimes committed serious crime committed including we don't like that of course there is a presumption of innocence isn't there have you have is there often a presumption of the letter is not on any previous tape if you watch a t.v. take there's also presidential of innocent have you watched a t.v. tape yes i have watched t.v. takes over as a person or people throwing bricks there is also a commercial innocent now but it isn't that if somebody has from a brick you're telling me they're guilty and even know you wait for me to answer you i mean why you've been so unfair why why do you put the questions we tell you why don't you answer that question other than i am a fair about my my damndest to try to answer your question i'm asking you if those are cliff which show someone has thrown a brick that means somebody has committed an offense right now whether that person is rightly arrested or not is for the court to decide so you can say that somebody
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has been arrested that arrest must be wrong that isn't nothing to do a presumption of innocence you understand that i understand that mistletoe a few days ago you were warning you were trying to evade the point is that only is that if you got somebody who would be arrested let the court decide whether his guilty or not by simply asking that you should let him go without going through a due process of the law is a stream erosion of the rule of law and you are seeing there how on your high horse and you're telling me that the bill is rooted in the rule of law and yet you are putting to me at the same time that freedom giving freedom or letting the arrest go free is not erosion of the rule of law you holland how could you have such double standard you warned a few weeks ago a few days ago that if things got worse the chinese army might consider taking to the streets you said when there's trouble in hong kong when things turn sour there's violence in our streets our fear is that if the police are not able to
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control what is happening here there's a remote risk the chinese army would get involved. how remote is that risk that if it so i hope that i got you why did you mention it no i hope you will never happen why did you mention if this is not finest you're trying to frighten people no it's a fact everybody understand it except you you don't understand it hong kong is a place where it is being operating is operating under the one country 2 systems it is a not very successfully is it is a huge political compromise we are part of china under the basic law china has a responsibility to ensure that hong kong is stable everybody who is doing business here want to see hong kong to be stable all right so yes under the basic law there is provision for the the beijing government to interfere if nobody hoped that
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it would happen i'm trying to say that we are trying to of avoid this happening so i'm not instilling fear into people i'm simply reflecting what is stated in the basic law and what is the political reality of the situation you said we need we in the eyes of the perfectly responsible thing to do you said we need we in hong kong need to gain the trust and confidence are aging so that they can allow us the freedom of political reform as well what about the other way round what about beijing's duty to earn the trust of people in hong kong only one small ways where they have managed in a very successfully have one spot where 22 years they have managed its exams on about how unfairly they've been doing of their most of dry well the opinion of those all show the people do not do the majority of people still do not identify as challenges they're going to face all damaging an example that has worked on them. everybody got to work harder you think the people of hong kong should play nice to their masters in beijing and i might throw them a few crumbs i do use a political reform words the words i use is that we should communicate with each
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other and we should instill confidence in each other that's what i'm saying you know understand the difference. well he told me good to have you all.
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to go.
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blame. this is news live from the showdown in the gulf britain says a royal navy frigate just driven off iranian boats trying to intercept a british oil tanker iran denies there was a confrontation also on the program. french lawmakers voted for officials tax of. american. so could the u.s.
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