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tv   To the point  Deutsche Welle  September 21, 2019 12:30am-1:00am CEST

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of your. own to the romantic master compass of. the secrets of symphonic. promise code starts october 11th. bob. young people around the world are leading a mass strike protesting inaction on a climate crisis that is making itself felt worldwide in heat waves droughts forest fires and storms will the tangible effects of global warming and the protests of younger generations who will bear the future price truly decisive moves by politicians are we ready to change course youth in revolt climate of change.
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is. gonna come. that's our topic here on to that point hello and welcome i'm melinda crane and these are the guests who will be discussing that topic with us calling on posh is a spokesperson for the berlin section of fridays for future he believes change is coming through the hope that we give to people. and it's a pleasure to welcome alan posner he is a commentator for the daily newspaper he argues to be successful the fight against global warming needs more than kids skipping school it needs politicians who can gain votes for sensible policies. and were very happy to have with us earlier ramakrishna she is currently a fellow at the mercado. her institute on global commons and climate change she
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says emerging countries like india or china must take advantage of the growing middle and upper class to balance their climate and development priorities. so let me start out by asking you angele great to the young swedish leader of these school protests that have now gained worldwide support she never uses the term climate change she says we absolutely need to be talking about the climate crisis because that's what it is would you agree. i think i would call that what she's saying and we had to stage bad because be debating. whether we should be. looking at making a move or not we've been sort of beyond that particular stage given given research given the recent update that that have been there on the climate origin see so yes
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i think it is a crisis and this will be accepted listen nobody can move on to next and and come up with solutions to introspect what do you think the words make a difference is it a crisis and not simply climate change. the problem is that you know a crisis you think of stuff like what's happening in the gulf you think of wars you think of confrontations and this mostly for most crisis is a quick fix. something there's a there's a war there isn't right but with this climate change it's something that's been going on gradually for 100 years and we know there's no quick fix so i'm not sure the word actually helps it it is. something to this jane world fundamentally and we need to change policy in all sorts of stuff fundamentally and that's never fast so i'm i'm a bit skeptical about that you say change is coming. can we really be sure
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that this rising public awareness because clearly awareness has changed the climate absolutely is making headlines but can we be sure that that will really show translate into increased willingness to take action well i hope so i'm talking here for millions of young people all around the world i'm talking for a lot of young people here in germany and we we do have hope because if we don't have hope we won't go on the streets and we have to go striking and we have to take the privilege of the of democracy and our right to go to the streets so we can say and demand a climate crisis a proper policy how we act you say hope but in fact if you listen to what a lot of young people say they are many of them feeling a sense of despair of fear can that really translate into productive action or can
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it actually sometimes become almost paralyzing for people i think we have to be i think we have to fear and we have to. act like it's in crisis because then we will act now and we won't talk about what we can do in 20 years we have to act now because the scientists are saying that we have around 10 years to act and then it would be possible to do. post agreements a stew so we have to act so we can reach to paris agreement to top 15 actually something else that greater timberg has been saying more and more is that we have to link up climate policy and social justice you know there were. that those who will bear the burden of changes in behavior of changes in policy have to be compensated for that do you agree with that and what would that look like in practice. i think bringing in social justice and climate change or the climate
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crisis. i think it is it is one of the bigger discussion of that today because we do have. who's going to make the changes who polluted before and now who's the button coming on and inevitably it is the poor the more vulnerable countries of the population that are betting the brunt of it without contributing a such soul. dusts it will see a lot of changes boiling down to the consumer level. and also burdens been taken on by the developing world the global south so yeah so this discussion is something that needs to be put forefront but at the same time not letting go of that by one while just because of that owing to the saudi justice no changes need to be made and so sorry if i can just press a little bit on that because the countries that you mentioned in your opening statement india china historically they did far far less than the western
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industrialized countries to contribute to wide c o 2 emissions so are people there really ready to change track in their own behavior because of the past sins of the developed world i think i can speak much for india that india continues to not going to be at enough at least in the book up at arby's this to the to the emissions bucket as it is and as far as being ready i think conversations are at least the coming out in the streets which we've seen in yard of mostly is not to the same extent as in india. i would i would know less about about the case in china but i think as far as people being ready. i think it's too early too early to oscar them to be ready in terms of giving up a scaling back on their consumption rather we need to be need to have a little bit of a top down effect top down perception when it comes to the changes being made particularly from these areas you want to add something yeah i would just want to
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say that we as you fight for climate call that climate justice because we are going on the streets and also demanding climate justice not because we can't live here in euro rich country and say oh we're doing we're doing we're doing solutions we're having solutions of climate change but then. poor countries they saw far as tough on our. and they. see the climate crisis behind it all so we have to have a solution for climate adjust of ellen you talked in your opening statement about sensible policies and you also said politicians need to be able to get the votes to implement those policies what do you think it will take to convince people for example here in germany to vote for policies that can that can hurt their wallets that will mean higher energy prices that could even mean shifting jobs out of old
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polluting industries. well. much as one can talk about climate justice people are not going to vote for that kind of thing it's quite simple we had just had regional elections in the end and where the denies the existence of climate change gets 20 percent now if that party weren't so stupid as to deny climate change but then said ok we accept trying to change what we don't accept that we bear the cost they could get on that alone and we're not going to you know they could get 30 or more percent that is to say if a radical anti climate party can get 20 percent less radical anti climate change you could get even more so you really need. to be careful how you talk to people if you talk about you know if it if it boils down to a moral thing like we in europe would be doing this 100 years and. people will say well no it wasn't me it was my grandparents was my parents we just tried to get out
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of poverty we just tried to make a living you have to make clear to people that change can come without it affecting their private lives too much because otherwise they're not going to vote for you i want to come back to what that could mean in practice what climate justice can also look like with in a country in just a moment but 1st let us take a listen to gratitude back herself as she prepares to lead worldwide protests this friday and next she has this message to the world with our business as usual we are currently on track for a world that could displace billions of people from their homes and yet the link between the climate an ecological emergency and mass migration famine violations of human rights and war is still not clear to many people activism works.
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i know you've met great a tim burger a couple of times what is so powerful about this young girl from sweden what has propelled her into this kind of worldwide in some ways leadership position well i think just speaks the truth and she's saying it without complicated what she's saying in short sentences and she is saying that for all the you around the world that we have to acknowledge and she is giving us hope but also say. she's also pointing out the crisis and that's the important thing about her and julie you say that people in india for example art quite as attentive to the discussion as perhaps we here in europe and some in the u.s. does that mean greater is an unknown figure there is this largely
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a european phenomenon oh no of course i mean she's managed to touch every possible corners of the void with the movement and i mean we're discussing her on to be that activism has reached everyone i think. schools in india we've seen i think almost 3037 cities that would be joining the 2027th september climate strike is about. i mean. saving the environment is not a new concept in india it's been that it's ingrained sustainable lifestyle is something that i think you associate the end in less than good in the culture as it is so what's happening is. the people of it's more local the understanding of what the effect of the environment is in terms of pollution in terms of the noise in terms of the changing climatic conditions i think the more local it is people are able to succeed with but the effects on the coasts the effects towards more remote areas yes that understanding might be. my beautiful less dispersed as it as it is over here but. but i think it's getting there but
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it's getting that it's at its own space it's not as expensive as you might have wanted when you say the fight against the climate crisis needs more than just a bunch of kids skipping school but hasn't this movement greater also all the kids going on to the streets catalyze change that goes way beyond that generation and that particular group i'm thinking for example of the e.u. parliamentary elections last spring green parties did very well in a number of countries and many people say that had to do with the school strike in the attention that it's gotten and i'm sure i'm sure did i mean i myself sat down and read a book i thought i knew everything about climate change before the divorce is all about britain not a couple of books about it and you know they've definitely achieved a lot the problem is we had it in that clip if you boil everything down to climate change this sort of this becomes money causal in fact it's about displacement of
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people we've the refugee crisis in europe that really was a crisis by the way was not caused by climate change was caused by despotism in syria it was caused by corruption in africa it was called warlordism all over the world and if you suggest to people that there's just one point from which you can change the whole world then i think it doing people a disfavor because the the point is that this world is a multi-faceted thing and climate change much as young people might hope that you know this is the the archimedean point that the magic bullet it isn't you know if you just want to see if quantum really thinks that's what greater is doing really well just say i'm boiling it down to one cause if we are solving crime a crisis we will have a proper future and beds with the car industry debts with our economy and with it we are of political fear we have and i will it it's something that is a huge complex. political issue it's nothing that it's just one thing it's climate
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change and the climate change with hope of everything because we have to so thirst so we can have probably economy we kind of program this and this and this so we have to solve it so over time it is necessary but it won't get rid of mr assad it won't get rid of the of the of disability that will get would have missed. the of the of the more as one gives warlords these things have to be at the same time and therefore won't get rid of refugees so that's what i'm saying we're not solving climate crisis there will be a lot of more refugees i totally agree yeah because that's climate justice climate justice not just pointing out one thing it's pointing out a lot of things so we have to deal with everything but it's a huge fight we have to fight and julie wants to. responding to you i think. just in the time of pricing being the only player that might need to be pushed to the extent that it's right now so that it comes to the forefront amongst other developmental political priorities that have that we know that
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a lot of the i'm dressed does does so without a march from the need of the demand for oil and to sort of makes an goblin's of the decisions which of politically motivated so and the climate crisis to a certain extent tries to address the fact that conundrum which which the fossil fuel industry has has created and. you come from a rigidly from from from india and the kashmir crisis that has nothing to do with climate you have time agenda you have 2 atomic powers india and pakistan facing off . i want to try to cut this short i think you yourself has said you think that climate crisis certainly will make other crises worse whether it's security in africa whether it's migration so perhaps we can just focus for a moment on the tangible effects that people are feeling the world over the heat wave in europe the u.s. we've seen flooding in the bad west we've seen forest fire. ayers in california
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there is no doubt whatsoever that hurricanes have grown stronger thanks to warmer oceans there's a huge array of tangible effects that people are feeling do you think that is changing some minds even amongst those who might have been leaning toward climate skepticism when i would hope so and. you've got to be careful i mean a warm summer or even free will in some as in europe doesn't you know if people think you know that's here. you know we might have 3 cold some as if you know it's still possible if this is we're talking about statistics here right we're not talking with here is not always going to get let me make this very concrete in the u.s. we are seeing polls from people in the midwest who said they had long doubted that climate change was really a reality now they say we feel it ourselves we see there has to be a change that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying they are saying it now because they've seen but statistically it's totally possible that you have 3 rainy
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some as it wouldn't change the science it was in if people then said oh we have 3 rainy summers damn it isn't changing off to look that's what i'm i'm i'm worried when people take weather conditions and say oh this convinces me because the science is it's statistically you it's not whether it's climate right it's a difference and they know you are doing climate research so let me ask you this great to turn back says this is her slogan right now unite behind the science she has just gone to the u.s. congress and presented them with a copy of the report by u.n. scientists from last fall saying we have only 10 years to turn this tanker around what's your thinking will we succeeded our way too late but if you don't start now we definitely are and 10 years is for the $1.00 and i mean be reasonably keeping warming under 1.5 percent. pushing the pedophile to the extent that you
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want and how much do you want to delay it but. i understand your point on the weather and the climate aspect but if it's 3 summers of rains and 3 some was of excessive heat it's going to be 2 decades of the same i mean how many of the same has to happen for us to believe that we need to address it and it's not just the. depletion as a result of that effect abunda but it that's coming to the society and so on the consequences on the economic status of the country i think i think is avoid damage officials that that that big we're not trying to understand or recognize so so let's let's talk a little bit about what we need to be doing in those 10 years greater to herself endeavors to practice what she preaches she eats no meat and instead of flying to the u.s. for next week's climate action summit she endured a rather argue was 2 weeks sail on a climate neutral boat but are the rest of us really willing to change long and
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great habits. ecological transportation carmakers are rolling out more and more literate models but demand is much higher for s.u.v.s waiting tons environmentalist's call them climate killers in germany sales have doubled in the past 5 years. if you were flying hours it would be nice but in fact people the world over are flying more than ever. over the next 20 years positive figures are expected to double and more to own for 8000000000. coming into meets vegetarians cause fewer greenhouse gas emissions. get consumers hunger for burgers and bacon is still huge averaging $43.00 kilos per person per year globally and even $100.00 kilos in the u.s. a. cutting back for the climates other calls falling on deaf
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ears. i must admit that after i had the pleasure to personally meet a greater tune back i really was struck by her almost profit like integrity and i felt a bit of shame about my own rather inconsistent behavior so since then i actually have been trying to make some changes to compensate all the flights that i take and to take the train whenever i can and yet at the same time i ask myself is what we are now calling the flight shaming is this really going to be enough changes in individual behavior voluntary changes on the basis of moral conscience is that really going to be enough to get us where we need to go no i don't think so we do you for used like for climate we don't think that shaming the individual is helping anything because science is also saying that it's it's just
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a small amount of personal emissions so it's not changing. and it won't change anything but we have to waste away on a around the world as a last like movement is doing so but we also have to strike and demand to politicians to act because it's. it's. a thing we have to put it to have to act and to individuals and this is what has to change but we can't do it alone so we have to be a stick to get off so well and politicians in germany are feeling the heat they're about to hold their own climate summit the finance minister has written a big editorial today saying germany must once again become a green leader the fact is germany adopted an energy policy that has put it at the bottom of the class when it comes to c o 2 emission reduction do you think there really is the political will here now to make the kind of changes like getting out of burning coal that need to happen. yes
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i think there is i mean the fact that our so called and a given change of energy policy. lead to the opposite of what was intended. that's a warning to everyone to be careful about saying you know do this and everything will be better so we made the brits a big mistakes but france is they're discussing now for instance the c o 2 tax or a cap and trade system for c.e.o. forgotten darkseid within germany and i think this is a good thing c o 2 tax makes everything that is too intensive more expensive and then the challenge is that it doesn't hit poor people in germany hardest and that's climate justice climate justice i think there are no angele that's come back to india and china you talked about in your opening statement you said that the upper and middle classes need to play an important role how and why. before before i come to their talk in the upper middle classes i think there's a general understanding that you know asking for
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a consumption deduction from from the consumer most right now becomes a little bit of a less priority given that such an aspiration needs certain minimum consumption levels haven't been met having said that i think because the consumption across india is so stratified you have different levels different income levels different standards of living consuming differently or into some access some choices. i think that open areas which do constitute the upper upper middle and the up and plus have to a certain extent met those threshold and on on making choices on what direction that i started with dick and fortunately unfortunately it is in the west it is catching up with the north which is bad we need to pull back so i think on a micro scale which might not be prodded to give the government right now is if it does look at coping are imposing restrictions i think. that the 1st focus should be on the the optimal and the up a plus consumptions very briefly if you were great at turnberry is now in the us
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and seems to be planning to stay there for a while is in some ways she's going to head to head with a man who is quite an older generation. who has been rolling back all the climate policies in the united states what do you think can create has youth revolt even possibly make an impression in the us maybe. in the us and. we have. lost. so we. thank you very much thanks to all of you for being with us to the point thanks to you made.
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for.
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this is state building a news live from for the millions across the globe protest for climate action. organized the site it's the biggest climate demonstration the world has ever seen this in more than 150 countries latest to do more to protect the environment and. the german government seems to be listening.

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