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tv   To the point  Deutsche Welle  November 8, 2019 5:30am-6:01am CET

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syrian born american visits a local bar in berlin. he lives just opposite with a father who was a member of the hitler youth as a child. some residents are suspicious of refugees in the neighborhood. americans curious about the bar's regulars. to cross the road worlds apart. starting november 11th on d.w. . germany's this week celebrating the full of the berlin wall 30 years ago but the party mood has changed with dismay many in eastern germany say they've been left behind and feel like 2nd class citizens well when the wall came down on the 9th of november 1989 the euphoria was boundless fun scene was the word of the hour in credit bull people kept saying to each other
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a miracle it seemed to come to pass and the wall which it appeared so in the bible was pierced but that was then and now it's now so we are just 30 years since the fall of the berlin wall what happens to the euphoria. of thanks very much for joining us and with me in the studio today i have got linda fear eka who grew up in the former g.d.r. and was 7 years old when the wall came down today she works as a reporter here d.w. and just completed a documentary about the full of the wall and linda says it's only now free decades after the wall came down that we realize how radical the change was for people in the east also with us is anglo-french catherine nicholson she's european affairs editor with the broadcaster france 20. believes that permanent euphoria is
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unrealistic it's boring porton to learn lessons from the past. under warm welcome to supporters freelance journalist tony patterson who witnessed the fall of the wall 1st time around and he points out of the 30 years on from the fall of the war the far right is winning a worry going to supporting the ones communist. thank you once again all 3 for being with me today i'd like to begin with you charlie inevitably because you were there what do you remember most i remember most. listening or watching television and hearing reports coming in that there was some movement at the crossing points in the battle in wall and so we got into a car and drove flat out to a crossing point at the wall cool. and people walking towards us as we drove along this wide and we thought i would this must be just west berliners who have gone to have a look and now walking back into west berlin as we got closer and closer more and
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more people started coming through and it was a maelstrom of people by the time we actually managed to walk there and the mood was just incredible it was there were people crying hugging each other you know when i think about it today it almost makes me cry cause we speculated for so long about this happening and people would always us themselves you know do you think it's going to happen in our lifetime and then suddenly my sense is that it came right out of the blue and you experienced absolutely nobody who i speak to now says oh it was inevitable that it would happen and it was absolutely a shock and a wonderful shock as well. a wonderful shock catherine you were talked up in bed and i was in that think i was about 8 years old. my my father had been to germany just a few weeks before i think in september quite placed you know the parts of. the south and he'd taken fighting. it shows the watchtowers and soldiers with guns really
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scary when you're in those so we knew what the berlin wall was my brother and i and on the night my mom came up stairs she got us out i just said come downstairs what's this on t.v. this is historic and i don't even really remember her explaining what was going on we just watched and sort of drank it's in and you know obviously much harder to get the feeling than if you're actually there like you were but you know you grew up knowing about the knowing about the berlin wall and having had that experience of my dad telling us about it it seemed like you say what this huge scary thing is i put it it's god what is this and today you are with friends 24 and i wonder from the french perspective when you look burkas are those great days and once you know it's you knowing how much of a of a triumph for liberty was it from the french perspective or was there something scarier going on yeah i think you know in the in the maimane of the berlin wall coming down i think as you say in the program there was euphoria quite generalized around the west part of your offending show behind the iron curtain as well but
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there was of the say there was fear in france for many people i mean even today there is that ambivalence for a certain part of the population when it comes to the idea of a big strong germany and of course the idea that to germany's like come back together was a worry so all the more important perhaps there was such a peaceful revolution exactly yeah sometimes actually when we talk about the problems of reunification whether we forget some what's actually what a miracle it was that it was peaceful you know this death zone that people listen they allowed to come up say not a shot fired nobody killed on that lie so the following days as people pass through the wall. and of course people will suddenly into the business of working out what was going on and things like perhaps that past everybody by a little bit but i do think it is worth remembering it was a peaceful revolution of simply not spring linder and linda. you were born in 1982
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in the city of brandenburg west of berlin. how happy was your childhood when you look back because after all we do describe we just heard about you know the 4 begin to jews of eastern germany when it was a dictatorship how was it growing up in a dictatorship i mean i was really young and so i would say i had a perfectly happy childhood my grandparents lived in the countryside so we went there to you know what kids do we climbed on trees and you know we we have our friends and i didn't exist i didn't i never felt like i was in i was living in a teacher ship that's not a word that would have appeared at me being 7 years old but still i mean i remember that night and i remember that from my parents it was kind of like a liberation i mean where and. suffering much in the g.d.r. but they still felt unfree and we had family in that you know in west berlin we had family and western parts of germany so you know of course that was the most happy
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moment of their lives as well and like for me you know feeling afterwards that it has so much to do with it with me i always you know i shiver when you talk about that night because i always think like oh man i wish i would have been older so i would have gone there and my mother was a teacher big ben and. we've been watching it on t.v. and she was saying like ok she kono and i have to work tomorrow. and they didn't go there to hear the syndrome dangle about it was ok i don't really think she was working going to extend. well as we've already seen linda has made a very thought provoking documentary that's being broadcast here on v.w. to mark the fall of the wall it's all about 3 generations of one family the family the family of regaining his a brand he was a very popular politician in leeds to suddenly post away 18 years ago now let's hear from each of those 3 generations and then for belinda again. i think i'm on to the new you home school spirit of being well jim we felt like we'd been imprisoned
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for fumo and survived but we tried to keep the wall out of our thoughts from behind and tell the children that inner freedom is what counts why i think so you can make anything you want of it and gain from it someone who's given an interest and i'm caught in my mind the west was different in berlin we've been near the wall many times by the church of reconciliation and had peeked over the wall it looked more colorful and vibrant we have a booklet it's time watch when i was 12 i stood in front of the mirror and swore i would not settle for saying i would get out never does it stop why does it make you standing up just imagine this was actually the death strip and one wall was here and another wall was there and now we can just walk across we can dance and make music how beautiful it is that we're all here and dancing together ali and then another time. interesting stuff
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lenders the the grandfather of the 3 year he says we will woolton we were imprisoned but it's the freedom that counts tell us more. i mean he and his wife they actually they lived in ben that this is where the wall was you know was built so they really experienced how cruel this this whole. divide of germany was when they saw it with their own eyes but they decided to stay in the east which was you know people didn't do that reeking of who depends on brother he went to the west you know so it was really a family that said ok we don't want the regime to when i was over you know so that was i think something that not a lot of people did and they of course they were part of the church back then so there you know they had their little word world of freedom where they could also talk about the other of course they were also you know like. the watched by
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the stasi so you know but it was a family that always you know they didn't. they were still heads up you know in the system they still live their lives as they wish to interest them there what about the granddaughter cecilia we also heard from her she says that these days you know people can and do go and actually dance and poncy and hang out on the form of death strip how much of how typical is that lightness and that openness and for her generation i think it's you know this is a burden you know i mean you can see and this is to me every day i mean i don't know i cross every day from west to west berlin to east berlin and it's just really normal and for them as well i think they're really benefiting from a reunited germany and this this generation i mean they feel that there are still differences but also in bergen i think a lot of the things are complete it. sort of you're not getting the younger generation benefiting from the from the economic developments of recent years but
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they're all you know there are many problems out there in this community there's great inequality absolutely yes i mean the steeds of reunification perhaps was necessary in some senses if it was going to be done maybe it does have to be done that quickly but it was quite a brutal process was met with the toy and the privatizations of all these businesses and all those people made on employees was 3000000 within just a couple of years i think i don't think the 5 percent of people lost their jobs in the in the ninety's that was totally trolled nazi yeah and when you think about i mean when they've been periods of mass unemployment in france or in the u.k. it's never been on that scale and that's left scars for such a long time for those generations that so i think it is interesting what you say about the new generations have only 9 a unified germany i think that they will have a you know they'll be coming at it from a different point of view and some of those scars won't be as present for them bob i think that's very true i mean i know people in their thirty's who live in berlin
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now. and they speak only english among themselves because they've gone together a whole community of young people of their age from croatia from all over europe and they have english as a common language and the booklet has just gone for them it's really is history. books when we talk about the younger gen will be told about these germans in general when we mention the inequalities that you were just describing how outrageous is it that people are told these germans are told constantly and of over a long period of time now that they are ungrateful and they moan soon you don't. feel safe again i mean if i talk about the young generation and that the differences are not there so much anymore i'm talking about berlin you know when. i think you know i wouldn't say that germany is united fully back because we can see
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i mean we can see the different. paycheck me we see differences on you know where people are represented the difference is still there and i think hearing for 30 years that you know this isn't that bad to my parents also heard you know you just wait and it's everything's going to be flying things your parents in the ones who know him to say well my father like many others lost his job he was working in the steel factory that was gone afterwards and. it was just you know there was not a lot of jobs you could get into and it's also he was same age like me now 36 but he never got back on his feet and this is something it was a it was a brutal change and i think a lot of people around all my friends have different stories to tell so you know and just realizing how brutal and how you know not only using a job but also the values that are in the system you know that changed everything changed you know people went to the west the soldierly and work people were
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chilling and steeples so your social network also was gone in a way so i think we're just only beginning now to really fully understand it and also kind of like understand the people because really something that you always heard was your come on it's only about it's only about money you know it's not only about money it's about learning a whole new system in a really really short amount of time and i think there was a lot to much for and i think something is interesting that we spoke about before the program. it was about how the people in west germany that life didn't really change you know there was this sense that perhaps they were paying. and all of that but in times of day to day life things went changing in the same way they were for the east germans with this as you say an entirely different system of democracy and capitalism a completely different way of thinking about yourself in the world i think that's the that's the case and i think that it was really with hindsight a complete waste and taken east and west and as still occupy good to have
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been avoided should have been avoided this takeover as you describe it well i think if you have a situation that you had in 1909 that the majority of east germans were screaming for the mark i think i wanted you read if occasion really badly as a very very weeks earlier there was screaming for democratic socialists but it that something happened it snowballed very very quickly and people realized i think as soon as they went over and got their so-called greeting money they got to get 100 miles each and they soon realized that that was new get them anywhere so they wanted to read if occasion very very quickly in the zone people consequence of it was that it would be a western take of it because they had the cash to do it where they have the numbers as well as a number of places in difference and i think we looked at it a lot back then market wise which i understand in the context and it was also nobody knew how long we would have to bring in you reunify it was an alternative
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logic that was the problem to the market logic yes appeared but you know i mean i think i agree with the take over because you know what would have been nice looking back 30 years is looking at what are things that we might could take over from one system to the other to help us all together to bring you know bring our germany forward and i think they never did that i mean there was. you know there's also it's about solidarity and i think we lost that and nobody looking at it from a market point of view. well internationally angela merkel has been far and away the most visible former east german of hope it's a different story though the question is will. from the outside until america's rises the 1st eastern german woman to become chancellor of a reunified germany sounds like a success story american business magazine forbes named her the world's most powerful woman 7 years in a row. u.s.
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president obama honored with the presidential medal of freedom america's highest civilian award partly because of her efforts for freedom in east germany. after the unpredictable donald trump took office many turned to america to be the leader of the free world. but in germany chancellor merkel often encounters hostility bordering on hatred when she appears especially in the east. colors yellow beaded many reject a refugee policies and chant we are the people. protesters feel angry and disappointed with the woman from the east many of them feel that she doesn't represent their interests of this being worn down by political bickering at home as chancellor merkel only divided germany. well it's an interesting question but the one i would really like to us linder is why isn't the american such a red rag to so many people in eastern germany. difficult question but i think one
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thing as you know she never did like really east german identity never came through really and so you know people don't see her as an east german petition but as a politician you know working for the system as they call it or she's one of the others and she's playing it really well and she's really successful within the system but i think. many of these germans or especially the ones voting for rather populist parties like you know they they don't identify with her and her politics so this is why this is my explanation so no you're very interested in the rise of the populist right in your. i wonder whether you find them to fight a special eastern germany and go on that narrative well i think it's very much this feeling that people in the east feel that they left behind because but plays back into this whole thing the west and take over which it was and i think people are beginning to realize that it was that now and
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a lot of people don't feel represented they feel that there's an elite up there it's like brick city in britain is an elite up there which tells them all what to do and they're not the elite is not telling them what they want to hear they don't want to be told that they've got refugees coming to live next door to them and they say who lost this and it it all comes together if you have a right wing political party that can put in all these arguments and vocalize them then you've got something like the a.f.p. and that's why it's making such such begin really concerns cathy want you to go to . the margin of lawyers left behind absolutely i think there are parallels in so many parts of the western world for the better was you know in france the movements i really struck me what you said about young people in cities in germany feel that unifications happened well similarly in paris there is a big movement even if that's where a lot of demonstrations happen is people who live in the countryside. having fewer of your g.p.s.
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and shops and even you know the bakeries are closing down which is really symbolic and important to me from see it means that there isn't life in these places a little if you like a manual like it was like a king in paris sort of directing without knowing about that life so i feel like here in germany that's a different it's a ration of quite a similar phenomena of what to do here in germany about the 57 percent or very strong german people people in eastern germany who suddenly they feel like 2nd class citizens i mean it's not just another poll that says 57 percent but it people's lives they need to be paid attention to 0 sense of self is that of pride your sense of purpose it's going to matter i'm sorry to interrupt you but that's the pressing question why i'm going to merkel not addressed and why is she not establish that dialogue perhaps it's easier to just say it's into. when you've got a country that 2nd nominally stable and prosperous there i think perhaps the downturn that's being full cost is coming in the next correction is that could be a massive test i think it's the there's a lot of things you can do i mean if there if there's differences you can see on the paycheck 30 years off the wall came down we have to equalize equal it but then
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we think that people in the west will say that's so unfair because the cost of living in the the red and somewhat heavy doesn't exist you know it doesn't make up that and i always say you know the narrative where we're saying is you know you people in the east you do you didn't pay the same amount of money the best in people and it's not true i mean somebody decided to draw a lie to do to build a wall but it wasn't the people in the east so you know if you start the story to tell the story from there you know you get. you distance yourself a little bit from the whose fault it is that the people where there are there and i think 30 years of the war why does my mother was a teacher for 43 years why yes you have to earn less than a teacher in the us i don't get it wrong angry as you get about these things i get really angry now you know i'm not 53 of the percent of the population are really unsatisfied and you know not all of them vote for the a deep but you know i think it is a problem if they're not represented that's from you that's the most precious issue
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if you don't if you're not and that's figures 1.7 percent of the east germans are in leading position top positions only only 1.7 percent of them are east germans so if you are going to show that in fact the other days it's a region eastern german universities and colleges of higher education i don't know how many there are several dozen at least all of the heads of all of these institutions in the east from the from the from the worst that we have to say this is something you have to change and there you are you know if you don't feel well i think if this is a look at the look at gays in across the board i mean east germany has profited enormously since the fall of the believability and people are not richard jump in this instance. completely but i think now we got to the stage where people are beginning to realize really what happened and looking back properly at history and saying well what really happened to germany and what all these people's concerns but it's taken a really long time for that to happen and i think that young generation that you
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would say it came about is probably a really big part of the k. part of the solution to this because you know people who do you know have that mental will that people will before the fall of the world talk about you know they they've grown up with unified germany cyberspace if that generation can feel a desire to stay in east germany to start businesses that to start their families that has been a big brain drain as well population you know if the new generation of east germans can feel east german and feel hopeful about east germany just explain to that i mean there are more people going back to east germany now than there are leaving so that's it's only there's times that so many have gone already i think there's a small percentage of them that's true but if you look at the numbers and they're in the last elections to ring yeah it was actually people. younger than 30 that also voted for a large percentage for the a feast or do you think you know your own views once the war.
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of course your insanity is problematic i mean i think it has a lot to do with like cities and like really areas where there's not much structure there's not much jobs high paying jobs you feel left out i think that's really a big because also in the east we have great cities that are functioning that don't vote for the that much but you know it's that's a big part of the problem and it's also what i said about representation of you know part of the system you know you don't you don't vote for the system and b. if he claims to be an anti-establishment party and that's where they come in. tony would be down with you you know what happens. the euphoria what became of the euphoria well i think you thought you for years sort of given way to reality and i think that what happened is that people have realized how much they've actually sort of lost out and that now has to really really stablished their own identities
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not only in east germany look at countries like poland colleagues reporting. people thought oh it's the end of history in 1900 what is going to be a nice liberal and not i mean people are trying to find out who they really are through right wing movements but that will change things are changing in 100 i think last month bonds polity lost in budapest budapest is no longer controlled by open sporty so it's moving in the opposite direction and bracks it has not been decided. yet. catherine how long is it going to take for east and west to grow together. and well i think that this issue of euphoria well as a goal and it only gets you safe is a constant process isn't history's happening all the time say you know perhaps the end point people full saw in 1909 will never happen that germany is going to get somewhere else linders you got a one sentence message of optimism yes i'm pretty optimistic i think there it will
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take maybe a little more but. 2 or 3 generations she's very hungry for she said it with a sluggish and with a lovely smile for a friday for joining us here on to the point if you've enjoyed the show as much as i have to come but it's wait until the end show sparked by its. cover.
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i am going to. get most i wrote it. lasted on. and he read it to books on. 9989. the story behind one of the most remarkable days in recent german history in
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a schabowski is no doubt the night the wall came down going to 50 odd. nicole pietz in germany to learn german english pinnacle why not learn with him d w z e learning course because fake. he wanted to smash the berlin wall long before it finally found a lazy also issued in new york state you know linda byrd is actually better known as the female. legend of german rock music. let's find. this amazing mr limberlost it's 21. this week on d w. live. come to. discover
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3 dimensions starts november 14th and w. . play. play play play play. this is the news of the live from but nato is divided the french. warm via lions is facing brain death but germany's chancellor rejects mccraw claim that the u.s. can no longer be relied upon to defend its allies will get reactions from washington also coming up. and go on the streets of iraq another day of anti-government
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demonstrations turns deadly security forces used live fire on protesters plus where in west germany people were interested enough.


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