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tv   Making Money With Charles Payne  FOX Business  May 16, 2019 2:00pm-3:00pm EDT

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we're close to wiping out the losses we had on monday. remember intraday the dow was down 700 plus points. coming back booed time. good day for capitalism. good day for a debate it. charles payne is next. >> this is a fox business special presentation, live from new york city, "making money" with charles payne presents a town hall discussing capitalism versus socialism. here is charles payne. charles: what's up. what's up? you get a car. you get a car. >> good to see you. charles: thank you all very much. thank you all very, very much. hello, everyone. thanks for being here. this is a very special edition of "making money." it is our first for fox business a town hall on capitalism and socialism. we'll get questions from the live studio audience from just a minute. let's meet the folks answering
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those questions. first taking up the virtues of socialism, bianca cunningham. she is the co-chair of the new york city democratic socialists of america. in 2014 she was a retail worker at verizon wireless store in brooklyn. she organized her coworkers to organize the first-ever union for verizon wireless workers. with her, you know this man. [applause] richard wolff has taught economics since 1967 at universities around the world including yale and university of paris. his most recent book called, capitalism's crisis deepens. here so champion the capitalism, the man himself, herman cain. former chairman of godfather's pizza and chairman of cans sy fed and he ran fed. he grew up in hum bing beginings we have stuart varney.
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host of "varney & company" in new york, on this network rather. stuart likes to say quote he is a refugee from european socialism. he came to europe decades ago and never looked back. other fox business stars will join us to speak candidly about the state of capitalism and the american dream. neil cavuto is coming. kennedy is coming. lou dobbs. we have great questions lined up from the audience the question is why are we doing the town hall and why now? jackie deangelis is here and she has those answers. reporter: good afternoon to you, charles. capitalism versus socialism there is more at stake now than ever, but do people who look at socialism and ask for it do they know what it means? as the election looms a national debate is raging. on one side, capitalism. free market economy, the individual creation of wealth. >> here in the united states we
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are alarmed by the new calls to adopt socialism in our country. >> on the other side, socialism. government control of enterprise wealth shared by all. >> democratic socialism to me is creating a government and a economy and a society which works for all rather than just the top 1%. reporter: according to a new gallup poll, 47% of americans say they would vote for a qualified presidential candidate who is a socialist. >> it means putting democracy and society first instead of capital first. >> democrat are embracing the same tired economic theories that have improvished nations and stifled the liberties of millions. reporter: so who is right? would america and the american people do better embracing a society based on socialism instead of capitalism? that question may be on the ballot in 2020. fox business is exploring that today with this town hall.
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charles, let's get some answers. >> let's get them. thanks so much, jackie. the audience has a lot of questions for this group we'll start with alex in school. alex, what is your question? >> my question is, how can we call our country great or our society moral when a small number of wealthy people have far more money ever required to live a comfortable life while people lack basic human rights and housing, health care and food? charles: great question. [applause] herman you've been on both sides of the equation. >> alex, i reject your assumption, that the assumption a lot of people are able to pursue the so-called american dream. i am an example. i started when i was very poor. because i was willing to take risks, i was willing to invest sweat equity, i was willing to change jobs multiple times i was able to climb up the corporate
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ladder, so i reject your high hypothesis. when rich people have a lot of money you do you know that they figure out how to give the money away to causes they like, not the causes government likes. charles: bianca, you worked at verizon. you felt it was an unfair system. you think there is only one way to right this through socialistic society? >> yeah. we believe putting power back in hands of every day americans, take a way few at the tops that have means to control the agenda for rest of us. we want a government for the people, by the people truly. charles: what would you say to herman, he started out in the 1940s in georgia, we know what the circumstances were like, he was able to propel himself to a place. does that not exist for someone your age? >> i believe millenials are entering a difficult economic system.
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i congratulations herman for his successes but people shouldn't have to put their safety and security at risk in order to achieve american dream. [applause] >> allow me to respond, allow me to respond to that please. that is another fallacy in the thinking. never in the history of the world has a socialist model worked. [applause] okay? now allow me to give you one example. most people want to point to venezuela and they're in denial. they want to point to cuba, then they're in denial. have you ever heard of ussr, united seven social sift republics. tried socialism for 50 years. when they figured it out it failed and went different years. charles: have you seen examples of socialism working? >> absolutely. biggest ones we can figure out about. united soviet socialist republics. that is not correct. unof soviet republics, not a big
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mistake. big not to understand what socialist societies have grown. we are currently as a nation in big fight, an ugly fight initiated by president trump against china as you know, tariff wars. went after big company today. that is a big effect. why? because china is the second most important economy in the world. charles: what was the first most important? >> just a second. 40 years ago, china was one of the poorest countries in the world. it used a very powerful socialist economic model to do one thing. to grow quickly. to stop being poor and to become wealthy. they did a lot of things along the way i don't agree with you and you don't. let me finish. if you want an example of rapid economic growth, then that is the example of our lifetime. >> china took off when they assumed capitalist connotations. they took off, i can't remember the name of their leader who said let 1000 flowers bloom. the 1000 flowers were capitalist
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enterprises. that is when china started to bloom. [applause] have you been teaching kids in our schools this? [applause] oh, lord. >> i've been teaching kids a bit longer than you have been talking on tv. roughly the same. let me respond. charles: get everyone in. keep the conversation going. >> i want to respond to alex's question, what you're asking about is income inequality. i'm sure that upsets about our society today. i have a different view of income inequality. i think it's a good thing allow some people their own brains, talent, ability to become rich. yes it is. more rich people you allow the more growth in your economy, the more innovation, more efficiency and the greater prosperity. can i just have 30 seconds? i'm an example of that. i got richer in the 1990s by investing in stocks.
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i got rich, i then got out and put that money into real estate in california. bought dozens of houses of the did them up, rented them out, made a profit. took that money put into land. i run a large tree farm. i don't know what you're laughing at young man, but you can learn something. i invested in land. i have a profitable tree farm. employees people in very depressed area. now with my wealth, that i made by myself, i am looking at six kids and nine grandchildren and i'm not looking for anything of you. >> here, here. [applause] charles: we have, we actually have another audience member named alex. we'll go to him for his question. go ahead, alex. >> so many of the policies we pursue and label as socialist in america are called more accurate term of social democracy in europe. i was wondering how do you think this rhetorical difference stunted our ability to discuss effective policy, even have a
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rational conversation about economics? charles: richard, i pose that to you. you're not even talking about democratic socialism. you're talking about chinese style socialism which includes a million muslims in concentration camps and you stifling of free press, surveillance, surveillance society would be 1984 as soon as you look around the corner. is there, so many nuances we heard of inclusive progressivism, capitalism, i mean socialism. which socialism do you think would work in this country? we're hearing variety from all these presidential candidates? >> i didn't endorse chinese socialism. charles: sounded like you did. >> i know. that is why i'm helping you. the statement this kind of economy can't create economic wealth and develop a mass in quicktime is wrong. that is what china did. whatever else you don't or like about the society, rapid economic growth which is one of the great goals of most people on the planet was achieved at
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faster rate than in the united states. let me finish this point. over last 20 years, we're not talking a short amount of time, average annual increase in the out put in people's republic of china was in neighborhood of 10 to 10 1/2%. over the same period of time, the average annual growth of output in this country was somewhere around 3%. it is not even close. charles: right. >> that has to be reality you face unless you're living in a fantasy world. charles: by ahn car, we should put it in proper perspective. if i have a quarter in my pocket, i find a quarter i double i have in my pocket. up 100%. if i have 20 bucks in my pocket, i am up a quarter up a few percentage points. we started at much higher base, god bless america. bianca, is it a race to get certain point, would you give up with freedom of press which
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comes with socialist style economies? democracy, a lot of them involve ultimately dictatorships, one liter, one political party. would you be willing to give all of those things up for a tighter income inequality? >> socialism is old term with a bad rep in my opinion. it predates marks. i'm part of larkest fastest growing organization in the country, democratic socialists in america. [applause] country with so much excess, not etiquettable some people are starving. not right families have to make a decision between putting food in the fridge and buying prescription drugs. what we're trying to move toward is model works for all of us, not a few at the top. charles: do you ever wonder where the excess came from? >> the workers. [applause] i did this. i did that. the wealth was created by workers. you did not create wealth on your own. >> yes, madam i did.
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workers are entitled. >> i still got it. >> may i respond to something she said. i live in at lap at -- atlanta, georgia, you don't buy argument people don't have food to eat or shelter? you want to know why? there are homeless shelters and food banks all over downtown atlanta, that some homeless people choose not to go to. so you think the government is going to come, you think the government is going to come in and use its clout in order to take from the rich and give to the poor? that doesn't work. >> i want to push back on something right now. i mentor in new york city public schools. i can tell you that the schools that i mentor in, almost 65% of the kids are homeless. when given $2,000 project, what do we spend money on, asking for community gardens to bring food home. asking for rooms they can sleep-over night in, they're afraid of shing on the streets with their parents. people are dealing with real
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issues. your claim people are not homeless are not going without is just false. [applause] >> your claim is also false. i grew up taking business cuts to school for lunch with no meat. don't talk to me about people coming to school who don't have foot, this and that. if it is available go out and work for it like everybody else works for it. [applause] charles: one second -- >> one more. charles: no, one second, stuart actually came from the uk where there was sort of a command-and-control. >> it was. charles: so you lived both differences. >> i have. let me respond to alex's question here. that is valid question. i do want a rational conversation about things. but i also want to talk the truth. european socialism does not work. i'm an example of that. in the 1970s, that was when i was in england, don't know why you're laughing sunshine, i'm telling you when i was in england in the 1970s, the coal
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industry, steel industry, rail industry, gas industry, road, transportation, what else have we got here electricity, health care, all of that, airlines owned and run by the government. they ran it into the ground. that was english social it failed miserably. i come here, i find a capitalist society where you work your way up the food chain, with brains, talent and ability. by the way it was margaret thatcher, a capitalist who restored england to prosperity after the degradation of socialism in the 1970s. still laughing. i don't know why? charles: passionate. thank you to stuart varney. we appreciate it. when we come back, neil cavuto joins our town hall panel. please don't go away.
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and richard wolff. they're representing the socialism side. herman cain is here representing the side of capitalism. joining us our very own neil cavuto host of coast to coast on fox business network and "cavuto live" on saturdays, both of those on fox news. if you think he works hard, that is who he is. at 17 he was manager of arthur teacher's fish and chips while still in high school. >> thank you very much. you know they went out of business because of me. i ate all their food. charles: i don't know if you're the right person for capitalism. >> exactly. is stuart okay? charles: i gave him a shot jack daniels on the way out. he will think about it. he wants to talk to this kid over here. >> that was a great segment. charles: it was. by the way get back to the audience and their great questions. i want to start with greg, he is a college student. greg, what is on your mind? >> hello, my question for you guys is, how close can we as a
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nation come to achieving pure, perfect capitalism, which is no taxation, perfectly privatized industries? because what we do we look at the left, hey, socialism, communism, how far left can we go. let's look how far right we can go at least in the united states? charles: herman, i have to pose that one to you, perfect capitalism? just as i said there are so many different versions of socialism emerging, there is lot of versions of capitalism exist from crony to everything else. is there such a thing as pure capitalism? >> no. there is no such thing as pure capitalism because we have taxes, because we have laws, and because we have people who cheat. but the capitalism, the imperfection in capitalism is this far away, big gap between that and imperfections in socialism. the c in capitalism stands for
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competition. the in socialism stands for state control. that is the difference. you don't have anything such as benevolent dictators. they do not exist. even in capitalism, it has some flaws. i admit that. but that is why we have system of laws. that is why we have type of things that we have. that is why we have court system. we have congress, executive branch, judicial branch. they are there to try to keep the playing field level. charles: richard? >> i want to take off from your point about there being different kinds of capitalism. the story you tell, the one without taxes, perfect competition, we teach that in economics courses. it is utopian dream might be capitalism. we teach it to students to understand how far from actual capitalism last 300 years has been. it's a model. it is an image. nobody in their right mind, at least i've never encountered imagines it is even possible.
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it's a image. it's a desire. you measure how far from it you have gotten in, but reality is capitalism competition for example, when one company works against another, one of then wins. the other one goes out of business. then what is left of the other one is bought by the one who wins. pretty soon competition makes only a few companies. we know that, because we live in it. competition produces its own monopoly which becomes a big problem. so we call in the government. but the notion of government somehow sitting there, rather than itself being a product of the capitalist system is bizarre way of imagine government having no causers or shapers of what it is. charles: by the same token, neil, a lot of folks say forget about venezuela, forget about cuba, the version of socialism america should embrace, norway, denmark, or other nations where the government is heavily involved where taxes are sky-high and while there is tight income inequality, there is not the type of upward
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mobility -- you're not seeing inventions of iphones in denmark. i know they're happy people, maybe because they didn't invent the iphone. we're not seeing stuff invented this country. >> they're beautiful people. i don't think capitalism in perfect sense was ever without taxation in the dream scenario. i will say of this, for all capitalism's flaws, we report on it still the best alternative out there. no one, no type after system, our own included has enriched the world to the degree and rescued countries and rebuilt war-tattered europe than capitalism did. we did. [applause] i think it can be seen as left or right issue. you're right to raise it but the opportunities presented dwarf what is presented. no socialist society has created things that we have created. no government-run society done for people what we have done for
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people. no society has created the opportunities and provided a rags to riches type of existence for as many people as our system is it flawed? yes. do we have extremes? absolutely. do we over do it enrons and tycos example of people who abuse the privilege? absolutely. we regulate that, we police that. we want to make sure we have better standards for medicine and food comes with it. comes out of your taxes. that is obligation that capitalism happily meets. charles: gets down to the fact none of these systems are perfect because human beings are not perfect. >> right. charles: i want to go to donna for the next question. donna? >> why are democrat politicians pro-socialism and glamorizing it seen throughout history comes from the destruction of it? there is reason why people are fleeing other countries for the ability to live in america. charles: i want to pose that to
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you. i studied african nations embraced socialism after independence. the people who colonized countries looked to them as capitalists. they certainly didn't want to embrace that. soviet union looked like it was on its way up. it hurt the nations severely, severely, set them back decades. why has the entire democratic party to a degree embraced one form of socialism or another? some are reluctant to say it, "medicare for all," paying off all student debts? do you think that the new party, that will be new democratic party? >> i will first say i don't believe the democratic party is embracing socialism. that is why we have organization, democratic socialists of america pushing them to hold the agenda of the people and to be responsive to the issues that we care about. neither party is serving everyday americans. charles: because elites on both sides? >> yes. charles: benefits so much from the status quo? you think they're maybe giving it lip service? >> i think it is lip service. i think they're not interested in having a real conversation.
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they will stifle the conversation every chance we get? >> can we have a conversation about math, money in, money out. if you make promises that can't be paid for eventually you run out of money, right? i think no matter how passion it be i don't give a republicans a pass, they build deficit as quickly as did democrats. i just think though, what is incumbent upon all these candidates, running for president, how are you going to pay for that? that is on you. that is on your generation. i'm fine. i think i told charles, beforehand, as long as my social security is okay you're paying into it i'm okay with it. i got worried the birth rate is at 32 year low. we have to do basic math. i don't think any of those candidates are. charles: rich, i want bianca to respond to that. how are all the ideas you want, how they will be paid for? >> real question is why we're complacent with children across this country starving, with people being in massive debt coming out of school and having
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no choice but to sell your wage for -- >> how are you going to pay for it? to address that, if that is wrong you want rectified? >> what would like to do bring democracy to every aspect of lives. including work places. unions are the thing that is going to push these people at the top to share profits with workers who are generating that wealth. >> bianca, i'm sorry, i can't be quiet, charles. you are shifting the subject which is exactly how you get back to these arguments based upon socialism. you're going at it based on emotionalism. allow me to finish. i allowed you to finish. going at emotion. talking about people who don't have food to eat, they got to do this and that. we can find those examples everywhere in this country. what i'm simply saying to go back to the fundamental question, which is where we started before you shifted the subject, go back to the fact every one of these presidential
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democratic wannabes has at least one socialist idea. you want to know why they get away with it? because the general public doesn't understand creeping socialism into our society. charles: i will give you that. but, richard, we should acknowledge that the general public is becoming increasingly dissatisfied with capitalism as well. capitalism is doing something wrong to have this. people become disenchanted with it, for us to be having this special. >> i will not follow herman insulting general public. >> why are you insulting me. >> excuse me sir. there is more coming. i am interested in trying to find the solution to this question. where is it going to be paid for. for me the solution is not having the government come in. this is the old idea. this is what socialists in the past thought. not where i'm boeing. not where i'm coming from. i want to go where bianca go
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started with question. change the way businesses are organized in the society. that is where the problem starts. every business is home, let me finish, of non-democracy. a terrible small group of people at the top, board of directors, the owner make all the key decisions what to produce, how to produce, where to produce, what to do with the work everybody contributed to. that is not fair. we shouldn't be surprised at that people at top give themselves lion's share of the rewards at the end. therein is the problem. socialism, let me finish, is for me is a program to democratize the work place. it should have been done at the beginning of the history of the united states. we're 200 years late. better late than never. that can solve our problems. charles: the great news, if we do it now, we're at peak of our earnings. 21 trillion-dollar economy. stocke market near all-time high. jobs are going up. neil, thank you very much. appreciate it. kennedy, kennedy, folks, she will join the town hall
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capitalism and socialism of back with us representing socialism, bianca cunningham, richard wolff, our champion of capitalism, herman cain. joining us now, you know her, host of her own show 9:00 p.m. on fox business. she appears regularly on "outnumbered" on fox news network. kendi was born in indian, raised in oregon. she is a libertarian. she is a big proponent of capitalism. welcome to the show. >> thank you very much. [applause] charles: you lived capitalism. you preached capitalism. so are you ready? >> absolutely charles, let's do this. charles: let's get our next question. nicholas? >> hi, i'm a college student here in new york city on business. on today's college campuses it is hard to bring republican ideas as capitalism without being shouted down or called a slew of slurs. how do we insure students in colleges across the country especially cities as liberal as
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new york, learn the real difference between capitalism and socialism and the benefit capitalism brought to america through the first 243 years of existence? charles: let's ask the professor? [applause] >> i spent a lifetime preaching to do exactly that. to have the university be a place where ideas of capitalism can be defended by people who believe in it, and ideas of socialism can be defended and put forward by believe that believe in it. in 90% of the colleges in united states, economics the field i know, there are loads of people who love and celebrate capitalism, no people who love socialism. give myself as an example. because herman gave himself as example. i was born in ohio. my parents had absolutely nothing. i for longer to i ended up going to harvard as undergraduate, to stanford in the middle and i finished at yale. i'm a poster boy for elite education in this country, right? at no time in my education, 10
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years in the ivy league, did anyone stand in front of me and give an argument for why socialism was advantageous or good. i heard countless debates among people who loved capitalism. disagreed about this or that, but the presumption was this is the best system since sliced bread. this is all you need to know. and the alternative is nothing you have to worry about. charles: right. >> given that, of course it is hard for socialism to get a hearing. but your situation is the very, very scarcest reality. the one i described is unfortunately the bad legacy of the cold war. charles: with all due respect, richard, i want to bring kennedy in, this is the not first time i heard it. i heard it from thousands and thousands young adults in colleges across the country. >> we have to divorce ourselves from the idea of a two-party system. i'm sure you would agree. you rail against the democrat party and establishment and it
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is this extreme bifurcation but they really have so much in common that they do such a great disservice to so many people. so instead of thinking in terms of republican and democrat, i like to think in terms of freedom. and that is much more libertarian. that is much more of a libertarian, liberty encompassing philosophy. and when you talk about freedom you tend to be much more inclusive. because you're talking to individuals. you're not just trying into two separate groups we instantly hate you. i think it is good that you're getting a degree in business. because it means that you will have practical application of that degree. there are a lot of degrees, my degree in philosophy doesn't necessarily translate to the work place. it helped me organize my thoughts. i probably could have done that in my own. i liked being in a university setting. for the vast majority of people languishing in college which are propaganda factories run by leftists who want to
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indoctrinate, what i would say to those people, save your money. don't necessarily go to college until you know what you want to study. i didn't go to college until i was 28 years old. i had two careers in broadcasting, radio and television. it wasn't until i knew what i wanted to do and poured myself into it completely that i went and got a scholarship to ucla, go bruins. charles: let's leave it there. up next, we have mohammed. what is your question? >> so, can i stand? all right. i just want to ask the candidates as their thoughts on desirability as well as feasibility of transitioning america to a socialist framework by replacing the current model of structure some describe as vertical hierarchy into worker owned cooperatives? >> bianca? >> that is a really good question. to me in my mind, i feel like, this country has prioritized
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capitalism over democracy. so i think we can't have these conversations without bringing democracy back into the conversation. people are not responsive to candidates or to political parties. they're responsive to issues. they have real issues that they want to see addressed. i feel like, you know, there are a lot of examples of, you know, socialism gone bad around, what i'm more concerned about, america we're great at a lot of things. i think we can do socialism in this country better than other countries. charles: how do we restructure? like changing a tire on moving truck. >> i have a question for you. i want you to answer this honestly, when will you admit things have gotten better? that is a problem. so much hyperbole, the worst time and there are children starving in the streets. this is actually the best time to be alive. people are living longer. and in fact capitalism has lifted billions of people out of extreme poverty. do you want people in extreme poverty?
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i don't. i want women, i want children and young people to have ideas that they insert into the marketplace. charles: bianca? >> when will you admit things have actually gotten better? you talk about systems and you talk about strata and you abuse this -- charles: it is luxury to have this conversation. in many parts of the world you couldn't? >> we have the highest wage gap today than after the great depression, than after the recession in 2018. so while you are saying that capitalism is working markets are strong, unemployment is low, we're saying it is not translating to people's -- [applause] >> but when will you admit, so socialist like to use the term living wage. when will you admit what that is? why would you stop at $15 an hour? why not go to $25 an hour? $150 hour. absolutely right. start there. to big. charles: i want to i but guys in. we're tight on time. herman you worked at the federal
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reserve. you ran a major corporation. how would we actually deconstruct this whole system that we have and flatten it out so that everyone has a greater voice is it how does that even work? >> answer you can't. allow me to give you two statistics. as imperfect as capitalism is, the united states of america represent nearly 25% of the world's gdp compared to everybody else. and we have less than 5% of the world's population. kennedy is right. more people have been lifted up out of poverty because of capitalism. not socialism. secondly, socialism creeps into a society. that is why a lot of people think this sounds good. that young man's question, was never answered. when you is are people going to start telling people what it is going to cost? nobody has answered that. that is because the costs are absolutely unbelievable and unrealistic. charles: richard. [applause] >> i would like to answer the
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question about how could you get a situation where these ideas become acceptable? to teach a little bit -- charles: implement. deconstruct capitalism to become a socialist society. >> his question implied how are you people willing to go in that direction? >> by force. >> no. let me give you an example. >> that is the only way. that is it. [applause] >> that historical nonsense like some of the other things you said. >> that is reality. >> longevity of the united states has gone down, not up you can't ignore it you can't say what you say. it is not correct. >> implying group think that is using force. individuals do not have a choice. that is only way. that it is force. >> you don't want me to speak? is that the point. >> i hear the same thing over and over again but that is the answer. force. >> you don't want to speak because you heard it already. thank you that is kind of you. >> thank you. >> let me explain why socialism isn't the problem here. that is little bit after
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american history. in 1916, for the first time the socialist party ran a candidate for president. got 600,000 votes, 3% of the vote. four years later the socialist party ran another candidate for president. eugene decks, got 4% of the vote. 900 million. four years later socialist ran another candidate, wisconsin, 1924. he ran for president. got 5 million votes. 1% of the total vote. at point the capital its of this country got very frightened for good reason, came down on socialism with the same kind of hysterical denunciation that you're listening to here. we have to come out of 100 years of hibernation. every other country in the world has socialist parties that are part of the conversation. we're the country that is behind in that area. we need to catch up. but we don't have to imagine it as new. it is in our own history. we've been able to do it. we've been there. charles: great point, richard.
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>> world war ii. yes. charles: fdr simply mint ad lot of policies that the socialists were espousing. >> that's right. charles: kennedy, love you. love your passion an knowledge. >> thank you. charles: quick break, lou dobbs will get in on this debate. whoo! [laughter]. >> kennedy! kennedy!
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charles: welcome back to our fox business special town hall on capitalism and socialism. bianca cunningham and richard wolff are advocating for socialism. herman cain is fighting the capitalist fight. lou dobbs is known as capitalist fight are. host of "lou dobbs tonight," 7:00 p.m. here on fbn. named tv's remere business anchor from "the wall street journal." graduated in harvard with a degree in economics. grew up in texas, idaho.
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so great to have you here. >> and to be with all of you. charles: start with fiona, will get it started in segment. how is it going? >> hi. corporate executives answer only to themselves and a few basic stockholders make basic economic decisions that affect millions of people. why would workers and benefit a system of input that would benefit their lives? charles: let me start with you. you organized workers. you would have wanted -- you were fired for doing that? >> i was fired for organizing, yes. charles: do you feel like that system is that way? there is handful of people making the decisions and it would be better? >> certainly. every single year i worked for verizon every six years. worked off commission structure. every year i was making less and less money. they were making arbitrary decisions that affected my life, my ability to provide for my family. and we came together and
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organized, to join a union to fight back and we won better wages. we won better working conditions. that is exactly the system we're trying to move to. the fact that people are retaliated against for using their right for exercising their rights to organize is one of the problems that happens whenever a few people at the top are able to set the agenda in this country. [applause] charles: lou, on top of that, these people were paying themselves obscene amounts money. abigail disney is railing against disney ceo making $65 million a year when the average worker is making 50,000. >> i think they're right. the ceo pay is out of line. it is absolutely an anomaly within american history. and since 1993, when we made stock options reportable but not deductible, we have, we have changed the metrics here. the worker, the employee, is watching management soar in
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compensation while workers have, just a disadvantage of part of that ratio. it should be much, much less than 500 to one. historically the number is anywhere from 20 to 25 times as much. an that has to be addressed. it should be addressed by the stakeholders, including the people that own the companies, that is, shareholders. the idea it is an in alignment between shareholders and management is just specious nonsense. charles: richard, you talked about everyone at the corporations having a voice. would that actually work as well? wouldn't there be chaos? you do need some precise decision making? >> the most successful economy in europe is germany. for the last 30 years german law prescribed the following, if it shocks you, tells you something about the media that subject to in this country. the law in permanent any is the following. everybody corporation with 2,000 or more workers must put 49% of the people on the board of
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directors elected by the workers. if you have less than 2,000, you have to have 25%. that puts a workers representative on every board of directors, multiples. they are participating in the planning, they know what is being done. unless secret efforts are made to go around them. which are proscribed in german law? has it produced chaos in germany? not at all. the recover from from the 2018 2018 -- 2008 depression was much better than ours. the notion you can't have workers participating is canceled by not abstract discussions theory by reality what other capitalist countries managed to do but we're just far behind. charles: lou is that one extreme to another? >> i'm sorry? charles: would that go from one extreme to another? >> i don't know that even the place that actually exists in germany. in point of fact they have extraordinary social costs impede their economic growth.
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they have a mercantilist trade economy. they live in large measure on u.s. deficits and their surpluses as a result. germany is not a model for economic growth vitality or innovation. it's a model for mercantilism and international trade. it is hardly a model in my opinion for vibrant progressive economy. >> let me give you an example. charles: we're running out of time, richard. we want to get another question in. in fact go to michael. he has the next question, michael. >> can we recognize there are human rights like education, health care, housing, food? there should be available to everyone, not just to those who can afford them, recognizing these exist as rights in this country, not in cuba or venezuela only because people fought for them, for public education, for housing, for national parks, public libraries, socialists fought for them long and hard?
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[applause] charles: herman? >> i would agree with you those are some basic human rights that people are entitled to and, as you know, our public school system provides free, not free, education paid for with taxpayer dollars. what some of the socialists want to do is move that up another level when at the same time, when at the same time there are issues just k through 12 because of some of the ways that things are done. many people take their kids out of public schools because they see some of the inequities there. i don't disagree with you that those are some of the basic rights that everybody ought to be entitled to. i just don't believe government ought to be the one to pay for all of it. [applause] >> i can respond to the notion that uas at the same time i respond to lou. one of the things germany does with its dollars is do the following. all costs of college in germany, right now, are zero.
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no tuition. no fees. not only for german citizens but for anyone in this room who went to germany to take a college career could go there and they wouldn't be required to pay anything. why? because in germany the idea is the best way to develop the productivity, and the innovation and the growth is this give everybody a chance to a free education. and they're doing real well with it. they wouldn't recognize the description of germany. they fought for these things. even conservative government of the mrs. merkel could not resist what a powerful, socialist and labor movement insisted be done. charles: lou? [applause] >> there is no such thing as a human right. there are, as you know you outlined yourself, there are rights this country has created in its constitution and that have been fought for by threw
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out history. there is no exception, there is no right that is simply because we arrived on this continent. there is no right just because we happen to be human beings. and that is why there is quite a disparity in the lives and livelihoods of people all around the globe. it should make it more important for everyone to understand what is working and what is not working. not only in this country, but in this hemisphere and around the world. we know what isn't working. and that is socialism. there are rare exceptions. [applause] but this economy, there is no close second to what has been achieved by american capitalism. american free enterprise capitalism, that has not only created the world's only superpower, the wealthiest country on earth, but the most powerful economically, militarily, in any other way you wish to apply a metric. this is capitalism. it works. then there is venezuela.
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there is cuba. and there is this china. china by the way is a country america built. not always willing. [applause] charles: bianca, do you worry if the government did everything, we wouldn't have the impetus to do the things that make us great? we would never achieve individual greatness if the government did everything for us? >> when we look at countries that provide basic human needs to the people, what they see they have the opportunity to pursue the career path that makes them happy, skillsets, as opposed people here are stuck in dead end jobs, they are afraid of losing their health care. they can't transition to different career paths. they also can't start small businesses because they can't not afford to go without health insurance. what we're trying to achieve is system where people have the freedom to pursue what they're good at, passionate about. what we see that people work harder to grow the economy when ever they're doing something that they're passionate about.
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[applause] >> very quick. number one you never hear the socialists talk about costs an they don't talk about risks. they never talk about costs and never task about risks. those two words don't appear in the narrative anywhere. when somebody asked the question, what is going to cost, they shifted subject. they want to ignore the fact those things are unaffordable. [applause] >> let me quote milton friedman one moment. he said, so aptly i think the most brilliant economist of my generation. he said that those who want freedom and equality, and make that a priority, are likely to have neither. those who would put equality above freedom will certainly lose freedom. and those who put freedom above equality, will have the
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opportunity for both. charles: we have leave opportunity there. it went very fast. i hope everyone found the important discussion helpful, informative. i want to thank everyone at home for watching. very special thanks to our wonderful audience. thank you all very much. of course want to say thank you to richard wolff, bianca cunningham, herman cain, lou dobbs, kennedy from earlier, neil cavuto, stuart varney. i'll charles payne. see you back here on "making money," 2:00 p.m. eastern time. we will continue this conversation in the future. thank you all very, very much. really appreciate it. [applause] liz: president trump in the rose garden at this moment laying out his vision for what he calls a fair, modern and lawful immigration system here in the united states. let's listen in.
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>> and i hope that they will end up joining me and all of the people gathered together today in putting politics aside, putting security and wages first and pursuing these historic reforms. it's time. [applause] and if for some reason, possibly political, we can't get the democrats to approve this merit-based, high-security plan, then we will get it approved immediately after the election when we take back the house, keep the senate and, of course, hold the presidency. [cheers and applause] thank you.
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[applause] thank you. thank you very much. but wouldn't it be nice to do out sooner than that? [laughter] it's not a very long time, is it? 16 months. one of the reasons we will win is because of our strong the, fair and pro-america immigration policy. it's time to restore our national unity and rea affirm our -- reaffirm our national purpose. it is time to rebuild our country for all americans. together, we will create an immigration system to make america safer and stronger and greater than ever before. thank you, god bless you all. thank you very much. [applause]
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liz: all right. president trump has just laid out his proposal for his vision of an immigration plan. there are a couple of points that i want you guys to understand about this. he says it will put jobs, wages and the safety of american workers first. he's calling it pro-american, pro-immigrant and pro-worker. and he also calls it a common sense approach that will help millions of immigrants achieve the american dream. this is all breaking news. he says he will create a permanent, self-sustain thing border security trust fund. but aside from that, this will be what he calls a point-based immigration system very similar to what canada and australia have at the moment. you get extra points put together to enable you to have a better chance at coming into america, and these point systems will be based on everything from age -- he wants younger workers so that they can put together and work harder for the safety system such as social security and contribute to that -- education, financial self-suf

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