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tv   The Five  FOX News  December 5, 2013 1:00am-2:01am PST

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you've got to watch it. your country depends on it. hello, everyone, i'm dana hello, everyone. i'm dane ma perino. it's 5:00 in new york city. and this is "the five." so it's day two of how bah ma on offense. today's strategy, try to link the gop to the problems of his botched health kcare issues. >> in an effort to repeal the affordable care act, and admittedly poor execution on my
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administration's part with the health care website rollout. it's not a surprise that the american people's frustrations with washington are at an all-time high. >> not everyone is buying what he's selling. >> obama things he can repeal reality with receiptry. his trouble is, he has a little bit of trouble governing. he's faced with a management problem. a government problem. he passed a bill that is so complex, the regulations are so complex and contradictory. he's got a website that is not functioning correctly. he thinks if he says the right words, it will change perception. here he runs you against the wall. >> penmeanwhile, politico is reporting that people cybered up on sunday and monday. 29,000. and by the way, that's harry reid. some members of his staff are
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not among the 29,000 that signed up because they got an obama care exemption. his leadership staff is not going to have to go on the exchanges. the ruling earlier this year xwaif him the option to do so. none of the other leadership offices orks joof john boehner, nancy pelosi and others have done that. what do you think? >> reid is like a meth dealer who never tries the drug. the difference is that meth is saver than obama care. he's the guy who pushes it but never tries it. that's brains. >> i like your analogies. i do. let's get eric in here to tell us about the latest obama care -- because somebody just tweeted me and said they were look forward to what things bob
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would say today. delusional things. let's hear from you. >> let's do the facts. for the factually challenged. they get the 40 million people that are uninsured in america. to get them signed up, seven years. a shorter period of time. new jersey gamblers in just since the last two weeks -- >> online gambling. >> they've enrolled 56,000. far more than the 29,000. >> and you're taking more of a risk with obama care. >> one more number. about 4 medicaid enroll lees for every obama care enrollerks e. four takers for ever maker. if it continues to go, the
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biggest redistribution of american wealth in the history of the country. >> with reduced quality of health care. >> i think it's a record that will stand. put it in the world book of records. the millennials that president tries to court, the majority of them are covered by their parents' insurance. so they're not going the buy into this. this is the problem with the lack of funding and economic support and framework for this. which is why it will be a huge problem for the rest of us. those healthy young uns, they're not going to buy any of this. they're not going to log on. >> speaking of bologna sandwiches. >> the reason they're home is because of obama care, you know that, right? >> he's not going to get their dollars and cents. the hole framework is not going to stand up, bob.
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>> can i just say, yesterday, the president said, bring your ideas down. say, yes, sir, brothers and sisters. come to the table. eric, kimberly, give us your ideas. >> portability. cross state lines. tax reform, tort reform. >> and repeal the corporate welfare of the bill. >> make it attractive. >> savings accounts. tax-free dollars that you have. if you want to go to a chiropractor, your money can pay for that rather than government's. >> you're right. free market idea is incredibly simple. it works in every other industry. it's overcomplicated by thousands of pages of bureaucratic nonsense. >> rather than try to say what is your other idea, we had another idea. it could have been helped and fixed. free market health care. >> which was?
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>> what we were doing before. there needed to be some tweaks to it. >> look at bob. >> like remove the ban from -- if you're an insurance company in new jersey, you can't sell it in new york. that is ridiculous and stupid. move some of those. hold on. but you're -- you keep saying, what is your alternative? there are plenty. i don't think they're that good. next fact. i promise to shut up for the next eight minutes of the block. >> i doubt that. >> let's say if you go online and get obama care for 500 bucks a month. family of four. and $12,000 deductible. in several states was the average for the lower bronze plan. that's $18,000 per year per family out of pocket first before the insurance company pays a dime and before anyone gives anyone a penny back from the government. who in -- how is this possibly going to work? >> it's not. >> lit never work.
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>> where did you get those facts? >> he's being generous to say you could get a plan for a family of four for $500. i don't want you to shut up. >> i do. can we take a vote? >> the president had a summit for youth today at the white house. >> i hope you haven't been diskoumpbled by how hard it's been. because stuff that's worth it is always hard. civil rights movement was hard. getting women the right to vote, that was hard. making sure that workers have the right to organize, that was hard. it's never been easy for us to change how we do business. in this country. this has been the case for social security, medicare, for all the great social progress we have made in the country. >> however, greg are the young people buying it? because today, the harvard institute of politics released a poll saying that the young
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people, not always the most reliable voters, and confused in their views, it seems. the majority of them said today they disapproved of obama care and if given the chance, they would recall president obama. not vote for him today. >> i think the valuable lesson they have learned is cool doesn't reflect achievement, it masks incompetence. my niece had posters of justin bieber all over her room and suddenly they were gone. >> because your took them. >> i did. they're in my camper under the underpass. they could have listened to me. i'm like the camp counselor saying, don't play if the poidsen ivy. i've been saying that for years on red eye. because it was cool for people to vote for obama. he's saying this is hard. all good things are difficult. it's like obama care is a necessary evil without the
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necessary. >> it's interesting, bob. they seem to have had this idea, this idea of obama care. this great achievement he would achie achieve. that would be his legacy. yet, one of the things that the president still hasn't been able to answer, he said he was the last to know that the website was going to not work out. how could it be that he still does not know? and there's a trial balloon floated about the names of people that might be fired in the result of this. to me, they're saying which name, which person they can fire that will be politically palatable to america. >> awful. >> i don't -- there's no excuse for obama not knowing this. if he didn't know it. >> he says he didn't. >> the thing about young people, i don't know about a group in america that would not be against obama care because of the onslaught of this act.
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>> why wouldn't that have been true in the 2012 election? >> because of the o negative publicity this has had. >> from the republicans? >> no. did you mention that people want to recall obama and congress? >> yes. >> everyone wants congress gone. >> they may not be reliable voters. one thing you can be sure of, they ain't going to vote republican. not a prayer. >> would you consider looking at this poll to consider the types of marketing decisions you make for the younger age group? >> all you have to do if you get a chance, read mark stein's latest column. it shows the flaws with mr. obama. almost no private sector experience. that's the problem.
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>> isn't he a british guy? >> he's a canadian. he may be an american citizen. whatever. the guy's a brilliant writer. he nails what is going on with obama care and president obama's presidency to the "t" to the wall, bob. you may want to read that. have an open mind when you do. >> do you think you have an open mind? >> let me ask kimberly a question. if you're in a reading move, would you consider rereading peggy noonan's blog? >> you mean read it for the third time? i'm one ahead of you. catch up. >> profiles in courage are beating up on barack obama right now. >> as if he hasn't been beating people up and saying nasty things from the beginning of his administration? >> he's a cool guy. >> hire better people. greg's right. incompetence hidden here by cool. he doesn't have the skill set to do the job. >> i think there's one industry that is helped by obama care.
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the human backdrops. i've been looking at the stock exchange. human backdrops are up 30%. >> what about fainting human backdrops? >> 80%. >> they've replaced the potted plant. >> ride the market, baby. detroit is in deep trouble. now they're eligible for bankruptcy. what's next? and a big shakeup over at msnbc after vile comments about sarah palin. up next. ♪ i want to hold your hand
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♪ ♪ you love it but you hate it and you need it all the same ♪ yesterday, a federal judge cleared the way for the city of detroit to file for bankruptcy, a monumental fall for one of america's largest cities. in detroit, bankruptcy may be the only thing that saves the city. it is $18 billion in debt.
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much more on the way thanks to greedy unions, mass i have pensions and bloated salaries. redistribution was the model there. it destroyed a once massive powerhouse. listen though this smart young rapper get to the root of the problem. he's got a good solution to fix it. >> all it is basically is drugs and poverty. i mean, every kid has his own decision. kids pay say i ended up because of the neighborhood i live in. it's your choice whether you want to make it or you don't. whether you want to be another statistic, another drug dealer that they know about, or be somebody successful. i choose to be somebody successful. >> that's great. bob, i want to start with you. in 1950, detroit was the fifth largest city in america. 50 or 60 years of liberalism has
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destroyed the city. >> the way you read that -- >> wrote and read, by the way. >> let me get this straight, if it wasn't for uniyorngs detroit would be the fifth largest city? >> maybe not the fifth. >> no problem with the car companies leaving? >> what is the problem with the car company. why can't a u.s. automaker make a profit on a car? the united autoworkers union. >> you use the word union like it's got an allergy. >> it destroyed detroit. >> get out of here. >> let me take you down the rabbit hole. >> the fact that the federal judge made it okay in detroit, a lot of other states are at similar risks. is this a precedent? >> yes. it's going to be more -- this is more of what we're going to see.
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one after the next, they'll go for it and say, this is my case. show the example of detroit. if it was granted if detroit, and it's the easy way out. unfortunately, thing are so bad, maybe there isn't another direction at this point. the fact that it got there, that this is what we're left with. there is to other choice or way out. shows a complete lack of leadership. lack of courageous leaders to take on tough issues like unions, so it makes it attractive for a city like detroit for manufacturers and automobile companies to come in and set up to give people jobs. >> a number of cities in california have done this. >> i didn't say that. does at the make it okay? >> none this big. none with such a big history. >> so much for too big to fail. >> the question for the white house is to saying looking across the board, is there additional federal money to go to detroit to help them deal with this? h the mayor in detroit wanted
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this. there is no way, i don't see way for them to get out of this in the next 15 to 20 years that would be palatable enough for all of us to look at it and say we're satisfied. i think people have to face the hard realization that the jobs are not going to be in detroit. >> a quick thing to that. an important point. because the skilled labor has also left detroit. >> to the other states that don't require union membership to build a car. >> you can't solve this problem if you don't like problem solvers. that's the problem with the left. they've destroyed more cities than godzilla. a couple of solutions. the modern setters movement. where if you're an undocumented worker or immigrant, move to detroit. if you work hard and clean it up, you have it. it's yours.
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you solve two problems at once. lisa depasquale wrote an article on the $20 million in art owned by detroit, if they sold that, they could take care of this. sell is art. final suggestion, put trump in exampl charge. he cuts through the red tape. like him or not. >> let's skip ahead. ed haenry with jay carney. asking what he meant by saving detroit? >> is the president going the let detroit go bankrupt? >> i think that happened awhile ago. >> didn't he say it would be awful if they went bankrupt? it wasn't enough to help the auto industry. i think in the campaign, he said it would be horrible. >> i think there is enormous
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hardship caused by what is happening in detroit. this needs to be resolved between the city and it creditors. >> look, i know, ed couched it in president obama mentioned the auto industry. >> as i recall, the president's answer was vague. they left it vegas. because michigan at the time, might have gone romney's way. they wanted to walk a rhetorical fine line. they were not specific. now is the time for governing, not campaigning. it was a fair question to ask. >> their language changes constantly. they say one thing, mean another. i want to reiterate the detroit thing. reality show with trump called fix detroit. you get 16 people, maybe celebrities. >> very good. >> they can come in like kid
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rock and fix it the. the problem is i'm not surprised by anything they say. they can say one thing to my face and then say, no, no, no, no, that's not what we said at all, you can roll the tape back, it's what they said. it doesn't matter. their own reality governs. it dictates. >> i think he probably wouldn't like to see it. it goes to court. the only thing growing in detroit are muslims. >> oh, boy. >> we'll leave it there. senator rand paul has a plan for detroit. he'll be there on saturday and sunday. we'll have him on. coming up, a famous uproar after a new mom flaunts her toned abs in this selfie taken just days after giving birth. the woman is defending herself. the post baby body debate. i'll kill you for rye wriing that. check out our new website at
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very nice. >> at least one business is very nice. >> at least one business is doing great these days. the hate crime hoax factory. they've hate new high. or low. as the peppers rso perps of suc the -- women, blacks, and transgenders were invented by a member of the bias incident response team. birt is the bigot. the violator's intent is to help themselves by hurting others. sadly, the media and academics
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don't mind these deeds. they believe the a greater fact. it doesn't mat for the hate crime is fake because a real one just like it has to be happening somewhere else. it's the assumption that drives all perceived enjustice. we don't need facts, just feelings to find default. this makes for an environment that engages and rewards the rezenful. the resentful have to create hate. it's hate karaoke. where the singers belt out hit after hit to the delight of an angry crowd. fabrication is their livelihood. the scary part is, in 20 years, they'll be the historians writing about this era as if all of their lives are true. >> these liberal academic institutions. every one of them just corrupting america. i mean, hate. come on, man. close them down. get the professors out of there. close down those things and let's get ourselves right back to pomona.
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>> you're a lawyer. >> i play one on tv, thank you very much. >> shouldn't perpetrating a fake hate crime that brings out the police and hurts other people, be classified as a hate crime? >> i know this bothers you because you send e-mails at 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. i agree. people suffer from hate crimes, they are afraid to report the real thing. it diminishes the seriousness of the charge when you have people putting out these fakes. i don't know we can charge them. maybe we can secretly attack them. >> what do you think? >> i agree. it should be a crime. faking it should be. think about the example of people putting themselves at risk, climbing mountains and suddenly, someone dies trying to save them, it's kind of the same thing. i fwree with you. >> yeah, dana? >> you were talking about their
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perception. even if the hate crime didn't occur, they believe you were thinking about it or that you wouldn't be unhappy if it did happen. they always can justify their peens by saying that they project hatred and evilness on you. >> there's a lot of hate crime litigation moving through. a relatively new law. not a lot of precedent set yet. it may be this could fall into the category. >> i think it will be tough to prove. i want to encourage you. your hearts are in the right place. >> martin bashir resigned today. based on a monologue he did a couple of week ago in which he suggested performing a lewd act involving defecation and sarah palin. >> go ahead and say it. >> he apologized. i don't want to have to apologize and take a leave of
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absence. he resigned. thoughts around the table? should he have? >> i think so. they gave him an alternative. like, hey, you can choose. you're going to be fired, which is what should have happened to begin with, or you can do the walk of shame out the back door. maybe they thing that will help him look good, redeem himself in the eyes of the public so he can get a job at al jazeera. >> is he a syrian? >> i don't know. what does that have to do can anything? >> i wondered if that was his nephew or something. >> you mean like bashar al assad? >> bashar, bashir? >> he stayed on the air after that. >> i think that was the problem. they were probably in meetings going, what could be worse than what he said? they couldn't come up with anything. >> no one came up with it. >> it was not just that it was
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him and a well-produced comment. it was produced. >> what do you have in your hand? >> i called the governor for comment. she said rather than take this down, she's handled the thing with grace, class, a good christian. i said, governor, do me a favor. send me your book. i got her book. >> did you pay for it? >> hello, porter? take camera six. >> oh, hell, i'll buy it. >> her book, good tiedings, great joy. better. >> dana, who should replace him? alec baldwin? rob ford? >> i don't gate chance to watch that channel. >> yeah. >> i think rob ford. >> the thing that msnbc has a problem explaining, i think they should have a problem explaining, why, for off the cuff remarks made by a group of people, alec baldwin was fired
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immediately. martin bashir gets to think it through, gets a nice statement from the president of msnbc about how they wish him the best. if i was staff at msnbc, i would have preferred to know where does management stand on something like that? >> we argue about how people infuse meaning in your words, even when you're making a joke. you go, i don't mean that. clearly, bashir meant this. he wrote the monologue. he said very clearly what he wanted to have done to palin. he was treated in a much nicer way than baldwin, who was shouting at a guy in his face. >> you should insult everybody. that way, you got everybody covered. >> that is true. spread the hate like marmalade. >> pearls of wisdom from bob bickle. >> is there anything wrong with this woman?
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no. posting this picture -- posting this picture on the web four day after she had baby? some feminists think so. >> mother of -- >> we'll tell you why. >> whoa. >> what's wrong with you? ♪ a lot of people running [ male announcer ] 'tis the season of more.
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out of the wrong hands. a $29 value free. ♪ ♪ because during the holidays, keeping your identity protected means keeping your family protected. ♪ we need a little ♪ for we need a little christmas right this very minute candles in the window ♪ bob, we're on. welcome back to "the five." is it okay for new moms to flaunt their post baby body? not according to some people. norwegian fitness blogger caroline berg ericson posted this on instagram four days after giving birth to her body. showing off her flat stomach and sexily lingerie. she only gained 22 pounds when pregnant.
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some feminists thing she shouldn't have poesd the pic. how much do you love this segment? >> during the pregnancy, people kept telling me that my body would never be the same. i wanted to show everybody that that's not entirely true. i thing all the women should be proud of themselves, regardless of how they look after labor. >> look, i think she looks great. i don't know. greg, everyone has a theory and a viewpoint. we're going to save bob's. >> number one, it's not about the woman. it's about the babies. when babies are born, they're really fat. they have all that baby fat. get them on a treadmill. mommy bloggers, what is with these mommy feminist bloggers. they're absolutely miserable people. why don't you go after real injustice? there are women being killed all over the country. you're going after a norwegian fitness blogger.
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i thought i would never say that in my life. she is a fitness blogger. >> she's really serious about fitness. >> i think he had work done. >> i have to problem with this. i applaud women who take care of themselves. i don't know, people think, dana, you thing she had something done? >> no, i didn't say that. i was listening to someone else saying they saw previous photos of her. >> that was me. i thought maybe she had implants. >> here's the thing. i do think that women are under a tremendous amount of pressure. women are under pressure if jobs, figuring out how the get their kids in college, keep them safe. they have to worry about how the stay fit. it's not easy. i remember an article that was written by janice min. she's editor for some of the big magazines. director of the hollywood reporter. she had a baby. it used to be us weekly.
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she had a baby sand said, we put all these people on the front of the magazine about how easy it is to lose baby fat, it puts too much pressure on women. >> they make so much money. then they bemoan it. >> what do you think? >> she looks fantastic. i'm all for free speech, free expression. you can't have a problem with some people doing selfies and other people doing selfies. >> i like the outfit. >> i like the chandelier. >> of course you do. >> was this feminist group ticked off at kim kardashian? >> we didn't hear from them when martin ma sheer made the comments about sarah palin. >> or the stonings in certain countries. >> they get so upset. oh, wow. racy show. okay, bob. >> if you looked like that four days after you had your son? >> i gained about 25 pounds.
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i didn't gain a lot of weight. i thing i gained good weight, you know, because he came out juicy. what? >> when my -- my wife had my son, i gained about 25 pounds myself. it was rough. let me get serious. as much a's love those pictures. there is a lot of pressure on women. i think both in you know, in the art -- the dress world, whatever you call it. >> fashion. >> yeah, fashion. you ever seen a fat woman wearing expensive clothes. >> plus-sized models. >> they have them? >> what about the pressure on men. >> look how much work the guy had to do to have that baby. >> men gain sympathy weight. >> men don't get enough credit for what they have to go through for those nine months. >> i got nothing but love for men. >> she should be commended for her discipline. it's not her probe if she hurts
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other people's feelings. >> i had friends that looked lying that after they gave birth. i have no problem. >> a norwegian fitness model's blog. if you don't want to see it, don't look. >> because they're look for something to be mad about. >> you ever been to norway. a lot of them look like that. great. >> let's move on from bob. coming up, everything you thought you knew about chinese fortune cookies. probably isn't true. they're not chinese. they were born and made here in america. bob has the rest of the story next on "the five." stay with us. ♪ i've been locked out of heaven
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♪ ♪ i don't know where to begin ♪ how can you talk every -- can i start now? everything you ever thought you knew about fortune cookies may be wrong. they aren't even chinese. >> fortune cookies, by the way, are not chinese. they're american. first baked in san francisco in
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the early 1800s, those made today by wonton cut for nearly 70% of the u.s. market. >> we're the largest fortune cookie make for the world. >> they make 4.5 million a day. >> all right. have you ever wondered why they're always so positive? >> we don't want to do anything offensive to people. we don't want people to feel like they've read the fortune and it gets them down, depressed. >> i'm trying to remember if any said, you're going to drop dead tomorrow. >> uh, maybe not exactly quite to that extent. >> you decided they should be all positive? >> we have several thousand fortunes. we're always if the process of revising them, improving them. >> he looks like charlie chan's grandson. >> we just told you not to say that. >> these are probably the only
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things not made in china. these things are made in brooklyn, moe of them. >> are are you getting that from? >> i read it in h my research. >> this is for me sitting next to you. your infinite capacity for patience will be reward. management is doing things right. leadership is doing the right things. that's for obama. >> read one. >> this one is actually an obama care fortune cookie. it says -- try again later. >> no. >> temporarily out of -- >> i heard of misfortune cookies that would tell you when you were going to die. it never caught on. >> listen to what you know instead of what you fear. hmm. >> mine says it's in your moments of decision that your destiny is shaped. that means republicans will have no destiny.
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okay. the politically correct aspect of these things. they never have a bad thing to say, right? >> yeah. >> they don't say, like, eric, you're a right-wing jerk. >> here's one for you. thinking is heavy endorsed. >> it is. it's fastly ovvastly overrated. >> no one wants a negative thought. >> they don't eat these things this china. >> bob, bob, they eat chinese food in chin nap it's just different than our chinese food. >> the guy that invented these things was japanese american. >> it said it was in america. >> it was. he was japanese. you guys are taking this segment and making it difficult on me. >> ask dana about it. >> i did. >> i didn't have a chance. i'll read one that has me a little curious. it says a love relationship
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takes on an added dimension. [ laughter ] >> oh, yeah. step right up. come on down, confess your sins. >> keep it in the family. >> when you fall in love, you take on a different dimension. "one more thing" is up next. ♪ ♪ i know this time
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it's time now for "one more it's time now for "one more thing." >> will ferrell continues his branding campaign for anchorman. anchor man on espn, watch. >> you wiare one of the great quarterbacks playing the game today. you've done it all without a mustac
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mustache. you're running around out there. you look like a succulent baby lamb. i played in my day. san diego state. i used to yell check off all the time. check off. no clue what it meant. when i saw somebody on the defense move, i just yelled, check off, check off. >> he has more fun than anybody today. >> absolutely. >> great one more thing today. a recommendation that i have for you. a strong recommendation. the national board of review agreeing. one of the year's top ten films. this is "loan survivor." the story of knanavy s.e.a.l. marcus litrell. last night was the new york star-studded premier. today was the luncheon. i had the opportunity to have lunch with marcus litrell, mark
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wahlberg, alexander ludwig. great guys. great film. very important. >> you hang out with s.e.a.l.s a lot, don't you? >> watch the film. out december 27th in limited release. nationwide and january 10th. marcus and his wife are being fans of the five. he has a special message for you. you get to no next. >> all the big numbers of congress and house of represents wanted to make people that got food stamps be drug-tested. there was a poll done asking whether members of congress should be drug-tested. it was favored 78% to 7% for those big, tough guys. >> do you think they should be? >> i think every one of them should be. interestingly enough. the second question was, how about people who get welfare recipients? only 51% shoultd be tested. that's my case. >> do you think all members of congress should be tested for
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drugs? >> sure. why not? they make laws. >> this would be a block for another day. greg's next. >> yes, banned phrase. close proximity. close means proximity. so just say nearby, because you use too much time saying this. it bugs me. don't do it anymore. i beg of you. stop saying close proximity. oh, it angered me so. >> what about close promiscuity? >> there you go again. >> that's a word similar. >> where is your mind? very weird. very sexual. >> she's breaking into my world here now. >> yes, sit bob's world. we're just living in it. my one more thing is about baby names. and duck dynasty inspiring a lot of weird names. >> that's a weird name. >> the people on the reality show, okay, so the name cory.
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kori r irk korie, number one. mia, their daughter. people naming their daughters, phil, sadie, and silas. nobody is naming their kid beckel. >> you imagine being named silas? that's not fair to a kid. silas? >> it's distinctive and unique. >> why do people name their kids after people on tv? that makes me sad. >> like people used to maybe get it from books. their favorite characters in a book? set your dvr to never miss an episode of this show. we'll see you back here tomorrow. "special report" is next. it is thursday, december 5th. just once in three years. that's how many times the woman this charge of implementing
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obama care met with the president before it launched. kathleen sebelius still has a job. a warning for anybody logging on. major hack means your personal information might be in the hands of a thief. and he lost his life fighting for our country. now a thief is using this fallen hero's identity to get dates. >> you take a picture of a man who went through life and earned everything that he did. i mean, blood and tears. you're going to stand there and put up his pictures and say this is row? no. >> his family asking facebook to fight back. wait until you hear the site's response. fox and friends first starts right now. ♪ just find a place to make your stand and take it easy ♪
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♪ now i'm standing on the corner ♪ if you have to wake up this early, at least you're waking up knowing it is the tail end of the week. you have almost made it through. congratulations. goodfriends first" on this thursday morning. i am ainsley aiearhardt. >> i am heather childers. you are waking up with us. reports reveal a shocking detail off the white house calendar. president obama met with kathleen sebelius once in the past three and a half years. this according to government accountability institute president peter switzer. last night on "hannity" switzer says the president's treatment of sebelius has been unfair. >> the launch of obseramacare h been a disaster. to a certain extent they are leaving sebelius out there to kind of dry, hang out on her own. >> despite being left high and dry some


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