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tv   The Kelly File  FOX News  September 21, 2015 9:00pm-10:01pm PDT

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picayune. thanks for watching. n stops here in california because we're looking out for you. breaking tonight, new fallout from a shocking announcement as the republican once considered the most promising presidential contender announces he's leaving the race for the white house. welcome to "the kelly file." i'm megyn kelly. today, wisconsin governor scott walker, not long ago considered the favorite to win the gop nomination, became the second republican to leave a crowded 2016 field. on the way out, he delivered a clear message to the rest of the candidates by taking a direct swipe at businessman donald trump. watch. >> sadly the debate taking place in the republican party today is not focused on that optimistic
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view of america. instead, it has drifted into personal attacks. to refocus the debate on these types of issues will require leadership. i was sitting in church yesterday, the pastor's words reminded me that the bible is full of stories about people who were called to be leaders in unusual ways. today, i believe that i'm being called to lead by helping to clear the field in this race so that a positive, conservative message can rise to the top of the field. with this in mind, i will suspend my campaign immediately. i encourage other republican presidential candidates to consider doing the same, so that the voters can focus on a limited number of candidates who can offer a positive, conservative alternative to the current front-runner. this is fundamentally important to the future of the party, and more importantly to the future of our country.
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>> it was just two months ago that he appeared to do very well in iowa. his national numbers were near the top, too. but after two lackluster debate performances, a new poll showed an almost complete collapse. joining us now, governor mike huckabee and governor chris christie and host of media buzz howie kurtz. mark and howie, we go to you first. mark, you were somebody that helped governor walker write a book and know him fairly well. there was no hint of this, the campaign had been tweeting out updates on his chances in iowa and the full steam ahead message a couple of hours before seemingly out of nowhere he said, i'm done. >> yeah, you know, i'm shocked but not surprised. this is a scott walker i know. first of all, i'm a huge
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admirer, i got a book with him, i spent a lot of time with him in wisconsin. this is a guy who stood up to 100,000 union protesters and didn't flinch. but he didn't have to get out today. the fact is, he could very easily have slimmed down his campaign, focused in on iowa. john mccain did that with some you can cess in 2007. people say he's like a new tim pawlenty. he did the humble thing, to step out for the good of the country and the party so the vision he believed in for the republican party, a hopeful, optimistic vision can emerge. >> what's amazing, though, just in august, in august, he was at 8%. now today he's at less than 1%. but in august he was at 8%. so about a month ago, he was
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tied for fourth there, howie. he was tied for fourth. i mean, to say at this point in the race there's no coming back, even in the face of that cnn poll? >> well, scott walker, in my view, is a charisma challenged candidate. perfectly competent governor, but had trouble hitting major league pitching and found himself competing in a trumped up environment. so by the end of his campaign, here's a soft spoken mid westerner who wasn't intimidated, he was trying to tap into the anger that propelled donald trump and it wasn't working. >> how about those comments on his way out, two in the gop field, rick perry, former governor of texas and now governor scott walker, on their way out, taking direct aim at donald trump. is it fair? >> i think it's very fair. there are a lot of republicans
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very worried about donald trump and the vision he's bringing for the party. it's not the vision of reagan. scott walker said he stood there on the debate stage at the reagan library, realize thing is not the republican party that ronald reagan built and believed in. that he wants a candidate with a hopeful vision and if it wasn't him, he wanted to get out of the way and hopes other people who share that view and are not doing well get out of the way. donald trump has 24% in the poll and the only way he wins is conservatives are divided among a bunch of different candidates. >> but to blame scott walker's problems on donald trump is a bridge too far, isn't snit >> i think it is. he blamed the media gotcha game, but a candidate has to handle all questions. then he seemed indecisive.
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this guy took three different positions on birthright citizenship in seven days. so it's not all trump. i've never seen, megyn, a presidential candidate drop out and urge others to do so. we have to keep this in mind. a lot of these guys in the low single digits could keep going. but he has a day job. he has a state to run. so by bowing out now, he avoiding a situation where he becomes a laughing stock in the campaign and hurts him at home. >> all right, so who benefits, mark? let's talk about the cnn poll that came out today shows trump is still leading the pack at 24%, but it's a significant fall from where he was. carly fiorina jumps up from 3% to 15%. carson falls 5%. he was at 19%. and walker didn't have many percentages to give. he had less than half of 1%.
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however, that doesn't mean nobody benefits from him dropping out, mark. who does? >> first of all, he does have a lot to give in the sense that he's probably at not less than 1%, he's probably 2%, 3%, 4%. but he has donors backing him and he has a great operation in iowa. so he put together a fantastic operation. he was the leader in iowa. there's a lot of candidates that want that infrastructure. so i think there's an opportunity for a lot of people to benefit. i think marco rubio probably benefits the most, because he's one candidate out there who has this hopeful, optimistic vision of america. and so i think he's going to make a big play for walker's donors and supporters. >> we're going to talk about what happened to trump and carly fiorina in that latest poll. donald trump has a very different sounding message tonight. thank you both so much. we have new developments in another controversy, with a
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major islamic group calling for dr. ben carson to drop out of the race because of his comments about muslims and the white house. james rosen has the fallout. then we have how dr. carson's political enemies may pounce. and donald trump breaking his silence after critics attacked him for what he didn't say at a rally last week. plus, president obama is under fire for the guests he has invited to greet pope francis at the white house. presidential candidates mike huckabee and governor chris christie are here on governor walker and on that. >> was there any pushback from the white house with the kinds of people who were issued invitations for the pope's arrival? shopping online is as easy as it gets. wouldn't it be great if hiring plumbers, carpenters and piano tuners were just as simple?
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now reaction from across the teedia and the 2016 if theial field with republican dr. ben carson refusing to back down after the head of the nation's largest and most controversial muslim advocacy group calls on him to quit the presidential race. the council on islamic relations reacting to a statement dr. carson gave yesterday in response to a yes, when the
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doctor was asked by chuck todd o "meet the press," the following question, dr. carson said he would not support a muslim for president. listen. >> so do you believe that islam is consistent with the constitution? >> no, i don't. i do not. i would not advocate that we put a muslim in charge of this nation. i absolutely would not agree with that. >> chief washington correspondent james rosen in washington with us with the latest. james? >> good evening. it's not hurting us, that's for sure, ben carson's campaign manager is quoted as saying today. he cites a surgeon fund-raising and 100,000 new facebook friends all since dr. carson made those controversial comments on "meet the press." and the candidate himself as you note is doubling down, telling the hill newspaper that the next commander in chief should be "sworn in on a stack of bibles, not a koran." muslims feel that your religion
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is part of your public life and that's inconsistent with our principles and constitution, carson said. add -- >> the head of the council on american islamic relations says his group was shocked that such views came from a current candidate. >> not long ago, some people thought that a catholic could not be president. an african-american could not be president. they were wrong then and they are wrong now. we ask mr. ben carson to withdraw from the presidential race because he's unfit to lead, because his views are in contradiction with the united states constitution. >> at the white house today, president obama's spokesman expanded the indictment to the entire republican field. >> i think what's particularly
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disappointing to many observers, including me, is we haven't seen a significant outcry from all the other candidates in the republican race. and it's for the same reason, because they're chasing for the same votes. >> what about the voters? in joun, the gallop organization found half of republicans, 45% of them, saying they could see themselves voting for a muslim presidential nominee. only 66% of democrats said they would vote for an evangelical christian nominee. again, that's the public at large not broken down by party affiliation. in short, religion is official ly an issue in 2016. >> governor bobby jindal
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writing, this is a dumb game the press is playing, calling it a gotcha game. chris, was it absurd? because what happened on "meet the press" was chuck todd said, you know, this is what's happened with donald trump. should a president's faith matter? carson goes on to talk about well, if it's inconsistent with the values of america, maybe. and then he stepped in it. >> i like the guy from c.a.r.e., all he wants ben carson to do is quit. >> stick with the, was it a gotcha question? >> not a gotcha question. whether or not ben carson wants to respond oh, now, chuck, i am not going to play your games,
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but what matters your america is america and it's wonderfulness and just go with that. but ben carson said something that you're supposed to say with your inside voice, not your outside voice. carson just shouldn't have said it. >> is it going to be a problem for him? >> well -- >> many people are saying that's outright bigotry. >> well, it's going to be a problem for him. a lot of things are going to be a problem for him. the last time he said some stuff about sex in prison -- >> that it makes you gay. let's get to c.a.r.e. he has things to answer for, but his campaign is saying it's not
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hurting us. the council on islamic relations says they're shocked and he needs to withdraw. this is the same organization that's been designated a terror organization by the united arab emirates, that is, according to an fbi special agent who testified in court, a front group for radical terror organizations, that even chuck schumer says has links with hamas and ties to terrorism. so that is the group that is very indignant over ben carson's irresponsible statements and comments today. >> and remember, it is always in the interest of pressure groups to create the notion of an impending apocalypapocalypse. it is always in t to say, the pitchforks are out, they're coming for us. it's perfectly within ben carson's right to say he wouldn't be comfortable with a muslim as commander in chief. it is within the interest of the
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president of the united states and the interest of c.a.r.e. to suggest that there is a clique forming inside the republican party and that's good for business. >> last question, is this a reflection on trump and the statements he made about muslims or didn't make about muslims on friday which turned into statements he did make over the weekend. this is the problem that some say with donald trump that he'll inject a lot of issues into a race that may wind up causing damage to other republicans or leading them to damage himself. >> one dog starts barking, a lot of dogs bark before the evening is through. for trump, though, he's reached a point in his campaign where he stands alone. he's probably happy today that ben carson was the one being sweated each the questions over the teachings of the prophet muhammad. but it will be him that will -- the bill will come due for him
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whether or not he believes that the president is a christian or not, or whether he believes the president was born in hawaii or not. >> i've got to go, they're wrapping me. can i get one statement from you with walker dropping out? >> good guy, classy, patriotic act. >> so are you. great to see you. we have a new twist in those attacks on donald trump as critics accuse him of failing to defend the president last week. we'll get to that, next, with trumper e trump's former adviser. and remember that 14-year-old student arrested for bringing a device to school that looked like a bomb? that story may have changed. wait till you hear it. >> this child, nothing against him personally, never built a clock. he did not invent a clock or build it. and i'm going to show you why.
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>> >> breaking tonight on the heels of the controversy over dr. carson's marks about muslims, we are seeing new fallout for donald trump. he's now offered a series of explanations for what happened at a town hall meeting last thursday when he failed to challenge a man who questioned president obama's faith and citizenship. >> we have a problem in this country, it's called muslims. we know our current president is one. you know he's not even an american. >> we need this question. >> but any way, we have training camps rolling where they want to kill us. that's my question, when can we get rid of them? >> we're going to be looking at that. a lot of people are saying bad things are happening. we're going to look at that and plenty of other things.
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>> rich lowery is here, along with roger stone. but first, trace gallagher has the complete story. trace? >> megyn, hours after the question was asked at that town hall meeting in rochester, the trump campaign claimed donald trump never heard the accusation that president obama was a muslim saying all he heard was a question about training camps and that it's the media who wants to make this issue about obama. two days later the "i couldn't hear it" excuse went silent, replaced by the first amendment, trump saying if i would have challenged that man, the media would have accused me of interfering with his right of free speech. and then trump said, he's not morally obligated to defend the president followed by this. watch. >> then i said, if somebody made nasty statements or controversial statements about me to the president, do you think he would come to my rescue?
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i say, no chance, no chance. >> trump said it's the first time in his life he's caused controversy by not saying anything. but on abc's "this week," he said this. watch. >> i don't talk about other people's faith. not appropriate for me to talk about somebody else's faith. >> unless, of course, he's talking about the president's birth certificate. listen. >> he may have one, but there's something on that birth certificate, maybe religion, maybe it says he's a muslim, i don't know. maybe he doesn't want that. or he may not have one. but i will tell you this, if he wasn't born in this country, it's one of the great scams. >> when asked whether he would be comfortable with a muslim president, trump said, some people have said it already happened frankly. >> trace, thank you. joining me now, rich lowery and roger stone. great to have you here. rich, obviously trump's
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explanations for this have been a little inconsistent. but is this a negative for him or net positive for him? some people have said this is a nice distraction from the press that had been out there, which was he had a lackluster debate performance. >> right. in the short term it may help him. the model for trump here, he performs extremely poorly in the debates, then there's another controversy that distracts away from his performance. that's what happened the first time and here. i have a lot more respect for this guy if he actually stood by things he said instead of insulting our intelligence. this is at the level of saying oh, i insulted carly's face, but i was talking about her persona. he didn't hear the question? he clearly heard the question and reacted to it at the time.
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the idea that you violate someone's first amendment rights by disagreeing with them? this is a guy who had a journalist removed by force from a press conference, so he's not shy about disagreeing with people and expressing his disapproval. >> roger, what is really going on here? >> there's a substantial number of americans and a greater number of republicans who wonder whether the president is a muslim. i think this is because of his policies, which are soft on radical islam. you think three years ago when trump raised the birther question, people were aghast. he zoomed to the number one position in the polls leading mitt romney at that time, based solely on suspicions about that issue. so those who think that trump will be damaged by this or that dr. carson will be damaged by this, i think will be surprised. there is a constituency for this within the republican party,
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which nobody wants to talk about but is definitely there. >> go ahead, rich. >> well, look, we've had democratic presidents who have been soft on radical islam for decades. jimmy carter teaches sunday school every week and is weak on radical islam. bill clinton carried that bible to church every sunday and is weak on radical islam. some of us who opposed obama for years when trump was still out there praising hillary clinton, we thought it was very important and it was a window into obama's world view what jeremiah wright said and it's simple. jeremiah wright was his pastor, not his imman. >> let me ask you this, obviously trump has -- whether intentionally or not -- changed
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the debate about what he said or didn't say about muslims. the question is whether the media is bashing trump and carson with this without any context. one of the maybe team to first pour fuel on the birther controversy was hillary clinton. she came out on friday and was disgusted with what donald trump said and in the interview with "60 nminutes" in 2008, she said this. listen. >> you don't believe that senator obama is a muslim? >> of course not. there is no basis for that. i take him on the basis of what he says. there isn't any reason to doubt that. >> you said you take him at his word. you don't believe he's muslimus? >> no, there's nothing to base that on, as far as i know. >> roger? >> trump is accused of trying to have it both ways by saying
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nothing, but hillary clinton, you just heard her try to have it both ways. the truth is, jimmy carter's middle name was not hussein. a number of people wonder, because of the policies of this administration, whether the president is a muslim. >> they may wonder, but should candidates like trump be saying that? >> i don't think he commented either way. look, this is a flap. >> what about his comment that some people believe we already have a muslim in the white house? >> when trump loses the narrative in this race, when you get away from issues, you have these kind of distractions. presidential policies is supposed to be about big sweeping issues. as soon as he can flesh out how he's going to make america great, the better off he will be. >> get back to issues?
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>> did you miss his immigration -- >> at least he did write down some policies on that, but his answer on this muslim question was typical of trump. he spoke like an eighth grader. i hear bad things are happening. that's so sophisticated. >> you're right, he's not an ivy leaguer. he's not an elite. >> he never tells us his policy. >> let's see what his economic proposal looks like at the end of the month. again governor huckabee saw the guest list for the pope, he called it classless. mike huckabee and chris christie just ahead on the pope's visit to america and the white house. and the breaking news on scott walker. we'll ask about that as well as the new polling. and a new twist for you in the story of that 14-year-old student who brought a mysterious device to school. he said it was a clock, he was
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new fallout after reports claim that senior vatican officials are upset with the white house guest list of those who will greet pope francis at his welcome ceremony wednesday. those invited include the first openly gay episcopalian bishop, and supporters of president obama's health care law, which was criticized by many catholics for violations against church teachings on contraceptiocontra. take a look. >> did the white house invite people to this ceremony to
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reflect a broad diversity instead of just catholics who might agree with one set of policies? >> the white house planned the ceremony that would ensure pope francis would receive the warm welcome that reflects the warm feelings that 30 million americans have about him and his leadership. >> joining me now, chris christie and mike huckabee. also here, we'll start with governor huckabee. you are not happy with that guest list. tell us why. >> megyn, if i were hosting a group of alcoholics anonymous, i wouldn't set up an open bar. if you're going to host the pope, for heaven's sake, bring the best and most faithful catholics you have, people that would give their right arm to meet him. i'm not catholic, but i have great respect for the pope and
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when he comes to america, it's only fitting that we put out the very best kind of welcome possible, and i'm not sure that inviting people who are openly at odds with the vatican, who have criticized the pope for his positions and the church's positions on abortion and euthanas euthanasia, why do you put him where there's an opportunity for an embarrassing opportunity. that's not the appropriate place for that. the president wants to host a summit and the pope agrees to come to such a summit so they can sit down and talk. but i'm not sure that president obama needs to school and lecture pope francis on catholic doctrine and why he's wrong. last time i checked, it's the pope supposed to lecture christians, not the other way around. so unless obama has decided that
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he has a greater depth of theology and better understanding of scripture than the pope himself, and boy, for a long time we thought that obama had a high opinion of himself, but this would really take it to a whole new level. >> let me switch gears with you right now. we began the show tonight talking about governor walker announcing he's out of the race, which stunned a lot of people. did it stun you? >> in many ways it did. i certainly think the timing of it. i said this after rick perry made his exit. i happened to be in st. louis and spoke after him, so i saw him immediately after. there's something i can say that not many people understand, let me tell you this, the only thing harder than getting into a presidential race is getting out of one. it is harder to stop than it is to start. >> what do you make of his
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comments and governor perry's comments on the way out, that donald trump is part of the reason they're leaving, and that they hope other candidates will get out so that the front-runner right now will be challenged and they hope removed. >> look, we have a primary. the way you get out is you get beat, you run out of money. but i don't have any intentions just in case you wanted to know that i'm going to announce that i'm getting out. i'm staying in. you know, megyn, if all the others would like to drop out and endorse me, i would be very, very happy about that. >> you keyed up my next guest. governor huckabee, great to see you. here with more is republican candidate chris christie. no is probably the answer. >> for me to get out? not going to happen. sorry, mike. >> governor walker, who seems to
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be beloved by the other candidates, leaves by saying, i'm going because i want to make room for 134b who csomebody who on this front-runner. >> i've known scott for a long time. i campaigned for him many 2010 and i have a world of respect for him. he and his wife are personal friends. so whatever he said today, those were scott's reasons for getting out and i respect him for what he said tonight and for what he did during the campaign and his governorship. again, i don't get into this horse race stuff. it's too early. >> it's not even a horse race. what he was saying is he seemed to be suggesting there's a danger in the republican field right now, the ideas of the front-runner and so on, and he thinks those outside that sort of category need to step down,
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if you have no real chance, and let the person with the best chance take him on. >> i don't think there's anything dangerous going on. we're having a competition of ideas and approach and pe personalities and vision. there's too much talk about the people on the stage. let's talk about the people at home and in the audience. >> your numbers went up some. they were down, now they're up three, so polling at 3% in the latest cnn poll. but trump, he's down but still at 24%. are you surprised it wasn't higher? >> no. there's 11 people on the stage. not the least bit concerned. i'm being myself.
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carly about who made and lost more money while the guy at home on his coauch, a 55-year-old construction worker doesn't want to hear that. they went on and on. enough already about them. enough about them. let's talk about the people who matter and what you'll do for this country's future. >> do you feel like we haven't gotten to that point in this campaign? >> it's been hard because it's been consumed by this other conversation, which scott may have been referring to. so i'm going to force us to continue to talk about the issues. i'm going to talk about these issues and people care about those things. they don't care about how much money donald has made, how much money carly lost at hp or made in her golden parachute.
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what they care about is what is going to happen to my children? that's why i asked that question in the beginning. i asked them how many of them thought their children would be better off than they are. >> anything could happen right now. >> here i am, on the kelly file. >> on a set that is very dangerous. i have some new jersey in me too, governor. >> i know you do. >> >> did the ladies of "the view" go to a little too far? oh, the nurses are not happy, when they went after this woman. see why this is costing the show big money. a dramatic twist on the story of that 14-year-old muslim
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a new twist in the story of a 14-year-old muslim student arrested after bringing a mysterious electronic device to school. officials thought it looked like a bomb. he said he built a clock from
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scratch. or did he? trace gallagher is live. trace? >> remember, the school and police department were villainized for overreacting and muhammad was praised for his ingenuity. president obama offered him an invitation to the white house. when the story went national, so did a picture of the clock. and some electronic experts found something very familiar about it, saying it looks astonishingly similar to this clock, sold in the 1980s by radioshack. in fact, some experts pointed out that ahmed's device and the old radioshack clock share the same screen, same button, same backup battery system. they point out that ahmed's clock even has an imprint of an american flag and serial numbers. experts ask why if you're inventing a new clock would you use a 30-year-old circuit board unavailable today. listen. >> i see no evidence that this
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is any creation in it whatsoever and there was any modification or even assembly of anything to have made things out of a kit for example. this is simply taking a clock out of its case. >> ahmed and his family have not commented about his family being called a hoax, although the 14-year-old is preparing to go to the white house and collect tens of thousands in donated scholarship money. >> judge andrew napolitano is with me now. we learn the family is going to take legal action against the school and possibly police. how does this factor in at all? >> a lot of people, i among them, i blasted the school and i blasted the police for overreacting to this. it now appears -- i don't know what they knew at the time, but it appears this was a purposeful hoax for whatever reason we don't know. >> which is the theory of their case, not that he was bringing a bomb to school but trying to play a trick on people.
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>> correct. if the parents were involved in the hoax, now you have a fraud going on. there are two funds going on, one is to pay minutes ago when last we checked had $14,000 in it, the other 7500. not huge amounts of money but money donated under fraudulent purposes. >> why does that prove anything? maybe he wanted to see if he could disassemble a clock and reassemble it. >> 14-year-old kids lie and exaggerate. but if this was part of a purposeful stunt and the parents were involved in it and everybody from mark zuckerberg and president obama got taken in by it, not good. this is people reacting to the color of his skin. i wish race could be out of this. but all of that goes aside if this was some sort of a
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purposeful stunt. >> that's what he was accused of initially. that you're not allowed to try to scare people with a fake bomb. that was their initial theory. that's why it's re play awesome party song. ♪ (phone ringing) what's up mikey? hey buddy i heard you're having a party. what? if i was having a party, i'd invite you. would you? yeah. (phone ringing) oh! i got another call. adam: i'm not having a party! hey chris what's up! you heard about adam's party man? it's going to be crazy. i knew it! (beep) find the closest party store... introducing app-connect. (google voice) here are your directions. michael: i'm gonna throw my own party. the things you love on your phone, available on 11 volkswagen models. awe believe active management can protect capital long term. active management can tap global insights. active management can take calculated risks. active management can seek to outperform.
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then there was a girl who wrote her own monologue which i was like turn the volume up. and he came out in a nurse's uniform and read her e-mails out loud. and shockingly did not win. >> why did she have a doctor's stethoscope around her neck? >> she helps patients with alzheimer's which i know is not funny, but i swear you had to see it. >> those are hosts of "the view county "mocking a miss america contestant who performed a monologue about her job as a nurse and treating an
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alzheimer's patient. it's a moment they both say they regret. but is that sincere? the view is in a lot of trouble over this. >> this was appalling. a couple of television making fun of a woman telling a story about how she tried to comfort a patient with alzheimer's. and it just did not come off. now sponsors like johnson & johnson bailing out. it's hard to undo that kind of damage. i don't think that sat well not just with nurses but with anybody with a heart. >> and a guest host reportedly says she heard one of them backstage saying oh, they're going to make us apologize now. nurses everywhere are really ticked off. they're sitting there like basically why would you become a nurse? why would she be out there with a stethoscope. oh, because the job of moron talk show hosts was already
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filled. >> this wouldn't have happened if barbara walters was still hosting this show. this show has lost its way. >> this is a shadow of itself. they paraded in 50 nurses. does that do it? does that do it? ♪ all of our legendary racing heritage. all of our pioneering four wheel drive experience. come together in one amazing new vehicle. this is the all-new gle coupe. a mercedes-benz suv with the heart and soul of a race car. i needed work done around my house at a fair price.f sure can. so i could get a faulty light switch fixed? yup! or make a backyard pizza oven? oh yeah. i can almost taste it now. tastes like victory. and pepperoni...
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it's a calling. a love affair. a quest. the next horizon. everyone loves the chase. heartbreaking news to share. a good friend has lost her husband. jake brewer was the husband of mary katherine ham. jake died saturday in a charity
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bike race. he was the father to georgia and mary katherine is also seven months pregnant. please go to and search for jake brewer. we'll put it on our facebook page. the money will help with the children's education. jake was just 34. welcome to "hannity." this is a fox news alert. wisconsin governor scott walker is suspending his campaign for president. he made his announcement earlier this evening. >> today i believe that i'm being called to lead by helping to clear the field in this race so that a positive conservative message can rise to the top of the field. with this in mind, i will suspend my campaign immediately. i encourage other republican presidential candidates to consider coudoing the same so t the voters can focus on a limited number of candidates who can offer a positive conservative


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