tv The Story With Martha Mac Callum FOX News May 25, 2018 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT
tune in this sunday as chris hammer fills in on fox sunday and interviews rudy giuliani. the story, hosted by our friend and colleague at martha maccallum is straight ahead from new york, starting right now. >> martha: absolutely riveting to watch this this morning at a new york city courthouse. they played out like a and epic miramax movie. i am martha maccallum and this is the story. the king of hollywood -- speak out right back here. >> martha: they cut to this today. >> disgraced movie mogul harvey weinstein know in a new york city will court room after surrendering to police earlier today. >> martha: that's a different kind of red carpet. the man who controlled hollywood
for nearly 30 years, who won 81 oscars and by his own admission could "make you, break you or bury you" looks stunned as he listened to the terms laid out by the judge. he left the courthouse in his light blue v-neck sweater vest and ankle bracelet and lighter in the wallet by a million dollars that let him live in new york and connecticut under surveillance. he faces a rate in the first degree, criminal acts in the first degree and rate in the third degree. >> he used his position, money and power to lure young women into situations where he was able to violate them sexually. >> martha: more than 80 women said he harassed, abused and coat assaulted them and the first to come forward with actress rose mcgowan. >> if he stole your life, do you get it back today? >> i think today is a good
start, yeah. >> martha: laura ingle was at the courthouse today and she joins us with the story. >> it was quite the scene in lower manhattan, we had two different locations where we saw harvey weinstein, but for us when he turned himself in and the police precinct early this morning to face those criminal charges against him, which you mentioned. he was greeted by throngs of reporters and cameras which capture this historic moment in the me me, too, of movement. he left in handcuffs after being fingerprinted and headed to his arraignment in criminal court. he could eventually face up to 25 years behind bars if convicted of the crime that he was charged with today. speak out the defendant is before the court charged with two felonies for forcible sexual assault against two different women. >> weinstein was charged with
rate in the first degree, criminal sexual assault in the first degree and rate in the third degree. all these charges stem from a grand jury investigation involving two different women who are among the nearly 80 who have accused weinstein of sexual misconduct, ranging from inappropriate touching, to rate. weinstein maintains that there was ever, can enter any nonconsensual encounters. >> bad behavior is not on trial in the state. it's only if you intentionally committed a criminal act and he vigorously denies that. >> this was a pivotal moment in the me, too, movement. many of his victims have been sending support messages to each other. today, harvey weinstein will take the first step on his inevitable descent into hell. we, the women, finally have a real hope for justice. weinstein wrote a check for $1 million in bail and left with
a personal gps on his body. he surrendered his passport and is only able to travel to new york or connecticut. he has until next wednesday until he decides to testify against the grand jury who is still investigating claims against him. >> martha: now with more, mark i bartsch and jessica tarlov. welcome. it was a stunning moment for this whole movement today. to watch harvey weinstein in that courtroom, he seemed at points, mark, to be floored by what the judge was saying. and there was a woman who was a detective who walked him in, and she was standing right behind him through the whole thing. but you said that prosecutors do not have a slam-dunk case? >> if they don't. and the court of public opinion, without question, guilty as can be, pick up the pitchforks and hang him in the town square. but in the court of law, and let's make one thing clear, i'm not suggesting he is innocent.
but in the court of law, they will streamline this case and focus exclusively on that one victim, and the other victim will be handled at a different trial. what are the specific allegations? dna, and ben bronfman who i know well will do everything to destroy her credibility. and it's sad if she's telling the truth because that's how these cases are. but it's not a slam-dunk at all. >> martha: you know, when you look at this and a part of the quotes from the famous attorney who's done a lot of very high profile cases is that mr. weinstein did not invent the casting couch in hollywood.
the court of public opinion is certainly speaking, and whether or not has been ruined. i don't know if anyone else caught it but, eisha argento spoke at the cannes film festival a couple of weeks ago and said to the audience there this is the first step moving towards these women. and that was a great day for women generally, and women who have been harmed by harvey weinstein and other in power. i totally agree with you about the image of the female detective walking him, and jody cantos broke that story and pointed that out on twitter. >> martha: there is a level, i think, of discomfort. we look at the bill cosby case example and i thought it was good to watch that play out in
the court of law, both sides presented their case. i think in that case in many ways it came down to the drugs that were used, that were, i think part of the reason that people found him guilty. and this will be another real test case for these situations because women have said they didn't want to come forward because they didn't necessarily want to go through this process. they knew that it was their word against his. what legally is a possible president with this case going forward with all these other cases? >> there is a huge difference between the bill cosby case and this one. you hope it's the same outcome, as do i, but it's very different. what jurors relied upon in that case primarily were cosby's own words. where in a civil deposition he admitted to drugging a lot of these women. in this case, this man is alleging, i didn't do it. he's claiming, i had consent to. so the only difference between
what the defense and prosecution is alleging is the state of mind of the alleged victim. what she said or did to lead weinstein to believe that this was not consensual. it's a very close scenario. >> martha: it's interesting to see harvey weinstein in this position today, but we will see, as mark points out. it's far from a slam-dunk. thank you so much. it's great to see both of you tonight. coming up, will a north korea summit now take place, or should it? we will get information from a top top trump diplomat. and why president trump is now questioning when the government may have started what he calls spying on his presidential campaign. veteran journalist byron york joins us with the latest of elements. and longtime clinton advisor mark penn is now under fire after sharing his opinion.
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>> martha: president trump is continuing to press the issue of whether the government under the obama administration was spying on his presidential campaign. and maybe most importantly, when that process may have begun. on twitter today, the president writing this. quote the democrats are now alluding to having a concept on an opposing party's campaign is different than having a spy, as illegal as that may be. he writes. but what about an informant who is paid a fortune and sets up way earlier than the russia hoax? we will break that down in a moment. so all this comes down to questions of, what federal agency did what and when, and what was actually the beginning point? why did they get involved? they weren't spying on the trump campaign but keeping tabs on the russia, they claim. a fox news contributor who has a
written almost daily following the course of this whole thing as we have watched it play out. byron, what did you think in particular about what the president said today? is he on firm ground with that tweet? >> i thought he was a little bit ahead of where the rest of us are, including me, on what we know. we know this informant got in touch with three people, and he no -- we know he tried to insinuate himself into the campaign that way. we think he perhaps was either trying to figure out what, if anything, they knew about russian hiking, or perhaps he was trying to plant information with him. we know those things. on the other hand, we don't know when it started and we don't know when the fbi became interested in that particular project. so when the president said, it started earlier than we knew, we were not clear about that. and when the president said he was paid a lot of money, we don't know about that either. >> martha: that is an
important point. what have we learned over the course of the last day or so about what that might have been? >> byron: we do think it was earlier than we were originally told. it began on very specific dates, when they found the official papers to start the investigation. but we do know now that their interest in carter page for example and went back much earlier. on march 21st, 2016, president trump, candidate donald trump went to "the washington post" editorial board and he told them that he was going to announce that day his list of foreign policy advisors. and he read off four or five names and included one of those things for carter page and george papadopoulos. and, they also later briefed a
much larger group of obama administration officials. they discussed whether to have a defensive briefing, that is to get in touch with the trump campaign and say, listen, you've got somebody on your staff and maybe there are questions about some of the things you've done. be one let's take a moment with that, not something that really interests me. there's this meeting, and maybe we should let someone know in the campaign? there is a concern on whether or not the russians might have a influence on the campaign. so that there is an opportunity to intervene. so some of the stuff that you might be reading on the internet, whatever it is, that decision was made in that room. don't let them in on it. and to me there's only a couple of reasons why that could be. what's your interpretation of that?
>> byron: that is a critical decision because we've heard from a lot of former officials saying this investigation was an investigation of the russians. and if it was indeed an investigation of the russians, you might wonder why they did not give this defensive briefing to the trump campaign. so the answer is actually, we don't know. what's also interesting is, the first discussion i mentioned was comey and mccabe speaking to attorney general lynch. later though, they briefed what was called a national principal committee. and the u.n. ambassador, white house chief of staff and a number of others were all briefed on this carter page stuff. again, a decision was made not to give a defensive briefing to the trump campaign. >> martha: and they didn't let mr. trump in on anything until
he was elected, then they decided that he should know about the dossier because it would be dangerous if he didn't. is coming under fire by several democrats for criticizing the mueller investigation. he wrote an op-ed this week entitled "stopping robert mueller to protect us all." he said this whole thing was born out of quote hysteria. and now, nbc's joe scarborough is very fired up and angry about that and questioning mr. penn's integrity. >> what exactly is mark penn selling? does he have a fox news contract? is he writing for a conservative website? i want to know, often in washington, d.c., when people do strange things like this, creatures of the swamp, they are doing it for a reason. >> martha: here now to defend
himself is mark penn. good to see you tonight. are you getting paid by fox news? not that that's a bad thing, lots of upstanding individuals get paid by fox news. are you under contract? >> it was a tax on me when i was in political light, having a fox contract. no, i'm not being paid by fox in any way. >> martha: so joe scarborough, some of the people that you worked with on the clinton campaign. they think they're something wrong with you. speak out those people were not there in 98. where there white house was turned upside down at people's lives were turned upside down, and my interest here was a good government and better politics. taking the criminalization unless you really have the firmest of evidence, which certainly this investigation
didn't have. i think it's only reasonable to start to question this investigation after you look at the struck page text. i mean, that alone blew this thing open. once this report comes from the independent counsel -- >> martha: but they also say, big deal. they criticized the president. they cannot like the president and still do their job. >> that insurance insurance policy really suggested something else was going on. now you have the investigation going on by the igs of the doj. that could blow the whole thing wide open. now if that report is soft, i could take back some of my opinions. but my opinions are based on the experience i have and a fair reading of the evidence that's come out here which raises the questions, when did it get started, how did they create the powers to create a government within a government that is not accountable to the attorney general, congress or the president? >> martha: the mueller report is not out yet, the ig report is
not out yet, and conclusions have been completely drawn. they know what the evidence is, they decided what the outcome is on this, and the problem with mark penn spouting this stuff is that some democrat will look at him and say, he's a democrat. and you might change your mind. that's what he said is so scary about this. >> i'm sure he wishes more republicans would say, this is wrong. we shouldn't be disrupting the country for this. i want more democrats to go out and say that now. you have to take them really seriously even more seriously, and you have always said that he lived through 1998 and so many people get swept up in it.
these young staffers paying their legal bills, it makes them never want to work in politics again. >> i am glad to see people come up to me and say, they really enjoy reading both sides of this. i see people having debates within families. very touching letters from people who went to jail based on previous independent counsel investigations who appreciate an honest perspective on this. >> martha: while we will try to keep an open mind. we will be following it until it reaches its conclusion and then we can make our judgments about how an it ends up. up next is the singapore summit, is it still on? >> president trump: we are going to see what happens. we are talking to them now. it was a very nice statement that they put out. we will see what happens. >> martha: so where is this thing ultimately going? u.s. ambassador to germany ric grenell joins me in a moment live from journaling, could
germany. and a journalist just spent three years touring our country to get to the heart of what is really concerning everyday americans. what he found out may surprise you. he's here with his story, coming up. >> >> he is a coyote, a smuggle. he's got two women on the back of his jet ski. yes, they use jet skis now. once there was an organism so small no one thought much of it at all. people said it just made a mess
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>> back with america's music headquarters, i mike emanuel. irish voters back the repeal of the strict constitutional ban on abortions. both are predicting a landslide victory for the s forces, and the pole for the itv irish television supports 70%. while i pull for irish times show 60% are backing repeal of the band. the exit polls are only rejections and the official boat count starts tomorrow. authorities say another eruption at hawaii's kilauea volcano has sent an ash cloud about 10,000 feet into the air. residents living to the southwest of the volcano have been warned that the wind may carry ash their way. lava continues to flow into the oceans and dozens of homes have been destroyed. i am mike emanuel in washington,
now back to the story in new york. >> martha: president trump signaling today that the singapore summit could still happen. the news coming just 24 hours after he abruptly called off the historic meeting next month with kim jong un and the rogue regime claims it destroyed its nuclear testing site. in moments, ric grenell is here exclusively to respond but first, correspondent john roberts reporting from the white house tonight. >> reporter: it's less than two and a half weeks from now but president trump this morning said that there is still a chance that the summit with north korean leader kim jong un could still go ahead on june 12. this after a an uncharacteristically diplomatic response to north korea overnight in a letter that the president sent to kim jong un yesterday morning, canceling the summit. the president, excited enough to tweet this morning "very good news, received a warm and productive statement from north korea. we will see where it soon
lolita, hopefully too long and enduring peace and prosperity." and this was as the president was leaving for annapolis this morning. >> president trump: we will see what happens, we are talking to them now. it was a very nice statement they put out. we will see what happens. we are talking to them now. they very much want to do it and we would like to do it, we are going to see what happens. >> reporter: north korea statement said it that they are ready to talk anytime, anyplace, and are willing to give the united states time and opportunities to resurrect the june 12 summit. this comes after administration officials briefed the press yesterday on the situation with north korea saying that pyongyang had been acting in bad faith, and statements and actions. one of those actions last weekend after an agreement with north korea to meet in singapore and hammer out the details of the summit. the white house said the deputy
chief of staff to singapore and that team waited on the ground for three days and the north koreans never showed up. this letter that the president sent yesterday and then north korea's response overnight is demonstrating what the president believes is the art of the deal when it comes to international diplomacy. but there are some democrats who don't like the president's negotiating style. listen to what brad sherman said earlier today. >> we announced we were delaying the summit to a date not designated. and say it the reason for it is they didn't show up to the planning meeting. if they don't show up to the planning meeting, it's hard to plan and get things done by jun. but by canceling it, it looks like they are more interested in peace than we are and that is a mistake. >> the reason that the president should have given for canceling the summit is that the north koreans didn't show up to the meeting in singapore last week. but the white house told us in the president told us that the
reason was because the deputy foreign minister not only insulted the vice president, calling him a political dummy and saying his comments were stupid but also came to the point of threatening nuclear war if diplomacy doesn't work out. so we have competing narratives here for why this thing was canceled. bottom line, martha, it may be getting back on track. >> martha: wait and watch, so fascinating. john, thank you very much. here are now in a story exclusive, newly confirmed ambassador to germany, ric grenell. ambassador, great to see you. do you think this singapore summit will happen? >> i think as president trump said, wait and see. this is an issue that has frustrated many administrations before the trump administration, and i'm very pleased to see the action that we have seen over the last couple months. this all started from president trump doing really
tough diplomacy with the chinese. we have seen the chinese raised their hand for sanctions at the u.n. multiple times, and yet, not really implement those things. what president trump data early on in his administration was signal that diplomacy was going to be tough, and he pressured the chinese to actually implement the sanctions that they had voted for previously, in consecutive years. so what we saw pretty quickly was, once the chinese decided to implement the sanctions, we saw action. we saw the north koreans feel the squeeze, feel the squeeze of president trump's diplomacy, and come to the table. now we have to have clear eyes and wait and see what happens but i'm confident that this president knows how to negotiate. i have seen him negotiate and he also knows how to really use both the carrot and the stick, if you will, and he's been very
successful at that. >> martha: that is what we are seeing with the cte deal, which you wonder if it isn't getting back on track. >> he has said he's going to fight for the american people and use all of the tools that the government has. not just make one argument but he will say as he said to president xi early on, if you help out with north korea which is a very serious policy for us, a threat to the american people. if you help us out on north korea, he will be able to get a better trade deal from us. those types of negotiation skills, to intermingle multiple issues, i think it is a fantastic way to negotiate. i've waited a long time to see a president actually use all of the tools of the u.s. government has at its disposal, and this
president has shown he is willing to do that. >> martha: i want to put up a tweet that you sent may 8th, right after you began your ambassadorship in berlin. as president trump said, u.s. sanctions will start to target iran. u.s. companies doing business in iran should wind down operations immediately. there's lots of corporate entanglement between europe and iran and they don't necessarily want to unwind that ambassador. >> i think president trump is very clear about u.s. sanctions on iran. and he has been very clear that companies get to choose. they can either choose to do business with the united states, or they can choose to do business with iran but, they won't get to divorce. president trump has been clear about that and secretary pompeo has been clear about that. what you are seeing here throughout europe are companies telling us that, of course they are going to choose the united states. when forced to make a decision
about choosing either doing business with the mola, or the united states, it's the diplomat's duty to follow the directives and policies and be out front. all we are trying to do is present that choice to businesses throughout europe. it is their choice, they can decide which government or which market they are going to want to play in, and at the end of the day, whatever they choose is their decision. >> martha: you are in a very consequential country in that endeavor. thank you. coming up next, talk about investigative reporting. >> why am i paddling around in a rubber banana? because you need to see it up close. this is ground zero. there is a wave of central americans pouring illegally into the united states.
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and if you have any medical conditions. man: ask your doctor about jardiance and get to the heart of what matters. >> martha: president trump one of the election targeting what he called the forgotten men and women of america. but for the past three years pulitzer prize winner charlie le duff has been traveling digging into who they are and were and who forgot about them. he once hit a golf ball from one end of to the other of his home city of detroit to show how bleak and cast aside it really was. >> uncommitted because they are talking about reinventing the city. what does that mean with dozens of budget cuts? what does the city look like block by block? who lives here? >> martha: he chronicled the absurdity of the southern border situation.
>> meet public enemy number one. a guatemalan boy named domingo. he and his mother were arrested by border patrol a few days earlier. they were processed, given a notice to appear in immigration court and then given a bus ticket to los angeles paid for by you will come, the taxpayer. >> martha: he wrote about it in his brand-new book, "s show" i guess is what we will call it. great to see you. it's a fascinating journey that you have been on. chronicle corruption all over the place and you say graft goes on all over the place. remember the new orleans mayor went to prison for patting his money with hurricane katrina money. you have visited places where so many of these officials end up in jail. >> the way i see it, all of america is angry. one overriding thing that they are angry about is the
government. pick your level. the police, the mayor, the county, the president. the people that voted for trump are not the only forgotten once. if you add trump plus bernie, that's about 70 or 75%. and if they were women, it's probably 80 or 85%. things aren't going well no matter what people are saying, we are not saving, the wages are not going out. the new jobs that are being created, they are making new beds and wiping people's bottoms, you know what i'm saying, but you can't put a kid through college with that. the one you went into ferguson, talked about this young man who saved that guy's shop. then you went looking for this young man named dj. in the man said, i couldn't give him a job. it strikes me that there was that lack of integrity and respect for each other. those kinds of things don't happen as many times as they
should, where he would say to himself, i need to do right by the cicada, he really helped me out. those moments seem to disappear. how do we get them back? not to say there aren't good people in the world. >> while part of it is the media. what we can do, that guy's name is dj. and i tried to find him. if you are watching, call me. i respect you. this is a 25-year-old guy, dark, handsome, dreadlocked. instead of using the telephoto lens, we went in there, there were people trying to loot the store and light it on fire and he tried to stop them. he said, this is not right, this is not what we do. he didn't plug them, but he tried. police have abandoned the thing and he went in there and tried. i think that is who we are. once he left than the crowd through batteries at us and hit
us with traffic cones, and me and my partners matt phillips and bob shuttle bauer, they are part of this book. we wanted to show dj. the more we can show dj, and in those hard times in american life, the more we will remember ourselves and respect him. that shop owner that did not give him the job after the first burning, they burned it to the ground. >> martha: what i find talking to people is, the ones who seem to have it, they don't really stay that long. they go to washington for a few years and then they say, you know, i'm not going to be able to change the state. it's way too big, too out of control. it makes you wonder, is at the fall of rome? do we ever fix it or is this history 100 years from now that says, that's what it looked like as we are going down? >> not to be too biblical but everything the world builds,
falls. democracy is a beautiful thing, very patient thing. you just keep trying. i don't like to tell people, relax, it's going to get better. life comes and goes, you owe god that life back, right? i don't expect people to be patient. but for god sake, don't bring things down. don't steal things, don't point guns at police. you know, you are a former soldier, he probably was two. you don't call the congress, they are calling back. but, the king ships didn't work, tribalism can't work and something this large, communism didn't work. and, that's the worst form of government there, except all the
others. thank you very much, good luck with the book. it's fascinating. and i hope you will come back. >> if you are hiring, i could drive you around it, you. >> >> martha: thanks. coming up, remembering the reason for this holiday weekend and the troops who died of. can help veterans by completing their next chapter, their next mission in life. >> the physical and psychological impacts of being able to get up out of the wheelchair and stand at eye level with the world again are profound. just beacuase of a claim. i totally could've... (wife) nope! switching to allstate is worth it. ♪ (electronic dance music)♪ ♪ ♪
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>> september 11th 2001, i was running floor trading agreements for goldman sachs in new york city. as i watch the first responders run into the carnage of that day i resolved to do give something back to those who served. my daughter's fifth birthday, we celebrated like many families with cake and ice cream. 6,800 miles away, army sergeant rose was being medevac. he was hit with a hidden ied and his injuries would rob him of the ability to his experience that day was a personal reminder of how much we owe our veterans
and how their sacrifices allow all of us to take advantage of the lives that we have been blessed to live here. >> he demonstrated how his soldier suit allowed him to get up from his wheelchair and take the steps that he never dreamed would be able to take again. as americans we must make sure that we can give back but get back in a way that is uniquely american, that relies on this cutting edge technology and never take no for an answer. >> martha: that was part of an interesting experience that we had on capitol hill this week, exploring new ways to empower the lives of our veterans through cutting edge technology. i have the privilege of speaking on behalf of @soldierstrongusa, an organization that i have been on the advisory board candidate aims to help injured heroes get back on their feet using this amazing new development and rehabilitation and technology. joining me is chris meek, the chairman and cofounder of
soldier strong. he founded it and works on it every single day. and he is a hero to me and to many who are helped by his work. chris, great to see you this evening, thanks for being there. we were there to talk to the health science and technology committee about this cutting edge technology, and how it can be integrated into how we continue to serve our veterans. and you feel that the way that we work on technology for the battlefield has to be extended across that bridge until after they come home. >> absolutely. a lot of the devices that fund are originally funded through darpa, which is the department of defense. once they come home and face the va system, there is no darpa for veterans back here. so we are trying to fill that death valley gap. >> martha: there are american companies that are making -- as i said during the hearing, iron man is not just in the movies. they are creating arms that are
fully usable from the elbow to the rest, all the way down to the fingers. tell people a little bit about what can be done now. >> now it's even going a step further. the device you mentioned was only full range including the shoulder, but now they are hard wiring them into your brain, so they moved. one veteran lost his arm in vietnam and, through technology and virtual reality, he turned a doorknob and he actually started to cry because i was a first time he felt a doorknob in 25 years. so to your point, science fiction is becoming science fact. the one let's watch a moment with dan rose when he was in our studio a while back. >> standing up is surreal. pushing up and standing up and being eye level with people again was an amazing experience. >> martha: the other side is government spending and how it's used. this technology is so psychologically beneficial, as dan said it, and it can turn people's eyes wise around.
lives around. this technology helps improve their lives and hope prevent some of those lives from being lost. >> it's one thing to think about being able to stand and be eye level with the word again, it's something you and i take for granted. but to take that one step further, we are working on showing the mental health benefits. it helps incorporated increase muscle and bone density, but there are things that you don't think about, the unseen wounds of war. >> martha: and we are going to see soldier strong this weekend at the indy 500? >> yes we are. there is a program called deterrence for troops. for every lap that the driver completes throughout the indycar season, they donate $50 to our program. >> martha: thanks to them and to him. send us some pictures.
in the meantime, we have been putting on the bottom, turns for troops and soldier strong. please consider helping out. we will be right back. [phone ringing] need a change of scenery? the kayak price forecast tool tells you whether to wait or book your flight now. so you can be confident you're getting the best price. giddyup! kayak. search one and done. it's abor it isn't. ence in 30,000 precision parts. it's inspected by mercedes-benz factory-trained technicians. or it isn't. it's backed by an unlimited mileage warranty, or it isn't. for those who never settle, it's either mercedes-benz certified pre-owned, or it isn't.
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>> martha: finally tonight, the commander in chief becoming the 19th president to give the commencement at the u.s. naval academy. president trump's message to the class of 2018 his arm quote of the night. >> president trump: i do say, strive for excellence. live for adventure, think big, dream bigger. push further, sail faster, fly higher, and never, ever stop reaching for greatness. never stop reaching for the stars. we know that laurie will be yours, because you are winners. you are warriors. you are fighters, you are champions. and you will lead us only to victory. good luck. may god be with you.
god bless america, and anchors away! >> martha: anchors away. that is our story for tonight, i have a great memorial day weekend. tucker carlson is up next. >> good evening and welcome to a very special edition of tucker carlson tonight, inside the issues. politics is so dominant suddenly ripping this country apart when students attack free speech in the name of tolerance. they have abandoned their the old causes to attack issues like global warming. leaders are now demanding we bomb al-assad and we will hit all of those stories tonight. plus they are eating horsemeat in this country amazingly. we'll start with the efforts to spy on the